Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I'm curious to see how Nev works out. I feel like I don't have enough sac outlets.

. Grimgrin, too. I felt like I didn't always hq e fodder for him when he was the commander, and not sure it would be any different here.

I've already shared my thoughts about Kindred and assumptions about the sword.

I think the counter spell swap is a good one.

Search for Glory looks too clunky to me.
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I'm curious to see how Nev works out. I feel like I don't have enough sac outlets.

Grimgrin, too. I felt like I didn't always hq e fodder for him when he was the commander, and not sure it would be any different here.

I've already shared my thoughts about Kindred and assumptions about the sword.

I think the counter spell swap is a good one.

Search for Glory looks too clunky to me.

Curious about your experience with Port.

I do think running Supreme Verdict is asking too much of your mana base. I'd run almost any other wipe in its place.

Whispering Madness might be a good hand refill here.

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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

In the one game I managed to play since Kaldheim, I personally didn't end up being too happy with Search for Glory. Mostly because I'm also prefer not to run too many tutors in order to offer variety to the game. Search seems initially like an option to fix but the moment you play it, you end up going for the card that takes you to victory. Which in a way is fair, but not what I'm looking for and thus I'll be likely taking it out of the deck myself in favor of just some regular draw like Epiphany at the Drownyard.

I'll likely end up making a few tweaks myself after the discussion seen in WizardMN's thread and posts. Haven't really finalized them yet but will work them out once my cards come in this weekend.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Snowfield Sinkhole/Ice Tunnel/Port of Karfell/Sunken Ruins - Of these, I'm the least confident in the snow duals. We're already fairly slow for land drops so I'm really hoping adding these isn't overly crucial. I had to try though, being slightly more fetchable and flexible once untapped is worth the test. Port is expensive too, but I'm happy with it being a niche reanimate every now and then when I've got the drop on a board wipe or an alpha strike or whatever weird scenario I might be in. Ruins is a no-brainer, the filter lands have been really good here.
I agree on the Filter and even Port of Karfell. I think the downside is relatively minimal to being able to reanimate something (even at 6 mana). My one main issue sort of ties into your comment below with Oketra in that we are generally focused more on mass reanimation. That is, there are very few single cards that are worth bringing back without have an entire army. There are some depending on the board state so it can still do good work, but it isn't like we are getting to reanimate a Craterhoof Behemoth or something here.

I do disagree on wanting the tapped snow duals but the addition of Search for Glory might be enough. I think if you ever end up cutting Search, I would look to cutting the snow duals too.
God-Eternal Oketra - She's been fine, but less than explosive - I have no issue with her as a card, she's just not spectacular. I think I'm happy with her not coming back in even if Grimgrin, Corpse-Born or Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant don't work (I have a Phyrexian Delver to slot in if not), as ideally we're casting mass reanimation more than hardcasting zombies, so she just doesn't fit the timeframe the deck uses.
I think this is a pretty good assessment. I have literally never gotten Oketra to trigger and half the time I forget she is even in the deck because it isn't something I care enough about. As you said. she absolutely *can* be explosive, but she rarely is in practice.
Kindred Discovery - This is the controversial cut, and again, I've gone over some thoughts of mine in Wizard's thread. My thoughts are that it really doesn't give us the draw we need when we need it. It is disgusting, but short of almost decking me with Tombstone Stairwell I'm mostly otherwise covered for getting what I need when I need it. By the time we're casting this it's almost too much and I'd rather look at my draw being slightly lower to the ground if possible.
I am definitely interested in your experience with this. I added it back into mine to do some further testing online with it but I am still on board with cutting it. It is basically right on that line between power and cost and I still think that there is a reasonable argument to be made to cut it here. I am hoping I can get some time in the next couple weeks to grind some more games with my list to provide a more conclusive answer to this. It won't be absolute of course, but just a few more data points are helpful.
Hall of Heliod's Generosity/High Market/Exotic Orchard/Unclaimed Territory - So Hall was an easy cut. I don't think I've ever actually activated it, and I'm OK with not having that option anymore. Market doesn't produce colored mana (and I otherwise am happy with the sacrifice outlets I've got), and Orchard has no exact guarantee of the colour we need, so those were always going to be better as either basics or fixing, and Unclaimed Territory only gives us colour for zombies - well and good but what about Supreme Verdict? That one was easy to pull.
I agree completely with all of these and basically for the exact reasons you gave. High Market might be the toughest because of the addition of Nev but I think there is enough otherwise to still make him work right.
Epiphany at the Drownyard is a pseudo Fact or Fiction that scales with good value for mana spent to cast that can give us a really good way to refill the hand and yard at the same time (again, this one came up from Wizard's thread) - this one would be a nice way to replace Ancient Excavation.
I am actually getting a little more excited for Epiphany, which I added to my list, so I hope it comes up in a game soon so I can see what it actually does. It isn't good when trying to dig for an answer since if we only reveal one card like that, we won't get it, but there are a lot of situations where we simply want cards in hand and I think it does a pretty good job in those cases.

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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

With the cards having come in today, I ended up spending some time going back and forth on where to make cuts and adjustments. I ended up with the list posted below for now, which I hopefully will get to play again next weekend, providing that the pandemic restrictions here will finally end up being reduced to a point where it is possible.

Like I mentioned, I did play around with Search for Glory and a snow lands package but not using the card optimally felt just bad, so for personal enjoyment I sided those out again in favor of regular draw. Ended up giving Plumb the Forbidden , Fracture and Archaeomancer's Map a go as inclusions from Strixhaven seeing I was making changes after all.

Right now I'm still on the fence on Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant, as my experience with it so far is that its been mostly a rattlesnake card on the board and I've yet to really use the abilities on it in a way I felt it was nice. Once it's there people just want you to pop it and thus you're not taking down as much as you'd like. I'm still keeping it in there to see how it will go in the next few games, but could see it get cut.

Since I'm running Laboratory Maniac as a potential win condition, I've been contemplating the matter that a lot of card draw on our creatures comes at the expense of life. Part of me wants to include some means to negate that in the late game by potentially including Platinum Emperion in my list, it would mostly be a dead card in hand for most of the game but that makes it easy discard fodder for Varina.

Next to that I'm contemplating switching out Read the Runes for Pull from Tomorrow after WizardMN made the switch as well, having cards in hand is sometimes as important than getting them in the yard. Especially now I'm including the new Map in my list.

Varina, Digging Up Zombies

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
Grimgrin, too. I felt like I didn't always hq e fodder for him when he was the commander, and not sure it would be any different here.
This is my biggest concern with him here. That being said I'm not likely to be using him repeatedly turn after turn. I'm thinking similarly to Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant he will a shock trooper; he'll be there to use as a sac trigger and incidental removal option as well as a reasonable beater. Similarly Nev will only be coming into play when I'm able to really go in on death triggers or a board wipe or I need a rattlesnake.
yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
I do think running Supreme Verdict is asking too much of your mana base. I'd run almost any other wipe in its place.

Whispering Madness might be a good hand refill here.
Verdict is a tough one. I know the cost is really color rich. I also like that it's uncounterable though. I think optimally best in slot is Toxic Deluge but even after reprinting it's like 30 NZD, and that's just silly to me. In terms of minimal CMC/color splash the options are relatively few - you've got Doomskar, Hour of Revelation (which I really like but doesn't solve the splash problem, and removes artifacts and enchantments which I struggle to get back) or maybe something a little more niche like Black Sun's Zenith.

That last could be kinda good thinking on it; it scales to the timeframe of the game, it's theoretically reusable, and it's pretty magic with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. I may even have a spare copy, so....might give it a whirl. It's still bb, but that's a LOT easier than wwu.

Whispering Madness I don't like, personally. On paper it looks great, but it's more expensive to cast than I'd like, and because the prospect of it being repeatedly cast is abhorrent to virtually anyone you might ever play against, whatever you end up ciphering it onto ends up being a lodestone for removal or exile. That's not the end of the world, but it does make running the card a bit redundant.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I do disagree on wanting the tapped snow duals but the addition of Search for Glory might be enough. I think if you ever end up cutting Search, I would look to cutting the snow duals too.
Wholeheartedly agree here. Search might be a step too far, and if it is, the snow duals will go too. I have a strong feeling I'm trying to get too cute, but I want to at least try.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I am definitely interested in your experience with this. I added it back into mine to do some further testing online with it but I am still on board with cutting it. It is basically right on that line between power and cost and I still think that there is a reasonable argument to be made to cut it here. I am hoping I can get some time in the next couple weeks to grind some more games with my list to provide a more conclusive answer to this. It won't be absolute of course, but just a few more data points are helpful.
Ultimately, while it might be a bold statement, my feeling is I don't need it to win, so I'd rather make room for something that'll be more integral. If I were running Lab Man or Lab Man Jace or Lab Man Merfolk I'd keep it in, but as is, I won't miss it if it doesn't prove to be needed.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I am actually getting a little more excited for Epiphany, which I added to my list, so I hope it comes up in a game soon so I can see what it actually does. It isn't good when trying to dig for an answer since if we only reveal one card like that, we won't get it, but there are a lot of situations where we simply want cards in hand and I think it does a pretty good job in those cases.

I'm really keen to give it a whirl myself. While it's not as perfect as Fact or Fiction in design, I love the effect and I think it could put in some great work here. I think it'll shine early game as a way to get momentum going if you're struggling to get board presence. It's the sort of scenario where you're gonna have to choose who picks your piles well and sort the piles well, but if used carefully could be an absolute boon.
Nimbaway wrote:
2 years ago
Since I'm running Laboratory Maniac as a potential win condition, I've been contemplating the matter that a lot of card draw on our creatures comes at the expense of life. Part of me wants to include some means to negate that in the late game by potentially including Platinum Emperion in my list, it would mostly be a dead card in hand for most of the game but that makes it easy discard fodder for Varina.
You could always run some stuff like Tainted Sigil? Platinum Emperion feels WAY niche to me and I think you'll struggle to cast it when you want it. Otherwise you could look at things like Authority of the Consuls, Blind Obedience or Ajani's Welcome. I've run a couple of these in the deck before, and they can be pretty good. I personally haven't had problems with life totals in the few games I've had of late but there's definitely a solution to the problem!
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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
You could always run some stuff like Tainted Sigil? Platinum Emperion feels WAY niche to me and I think you'll struggle to cast it when you want it. Otherwise you could look at things like Authority of the Consuls, Blind Obedience or Ajani's Welcome. I've run a couple of these in the deck before, and they can be pretty good. I personally haven't had problems with life totals in the few games I've had of late but there's definitely a solution to the problem!
I mostly struggled on life due to the fact that I was behind on mana and thus couldn't get on board as much as I wanted, I hope the recently made changes will mitigate some of that.

Tainted Sigil feels rather situational, as it only allows for a certain amount of life to be regained, where as Emperion prevents life loss. Also, I don't plan on hard casting Platinum Emperion but mostly aim to bring it out of the graveyard when needed. It's not something you can do with the enchantments, which I don't see them as options either. Something like Suture Priest or a Soul sister would be a more likely option in that regard. Yet all of those rely on you gaining the life after they hit the board, which is where the Emperion could do something. The high CMC is a considerable downside for sure, but aside from going for the Lab Man win I can also see bringing it back to take a swing, opening up my opponent for a crack back. It's not optimal for sure and there are drawbacks as well.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
You could always run some stuff like Tainted Sigil? Platinum Emperion feels WAY niche to me and I think you'll struggle to cast it when you want it. Otherwise you could look at things like Authority of the Consuls, Blind Obedience or Ajani's Welcome. I've run a couple of these in the deck before, and they can be pretty good. I personally haven't had problems with life totals in the few games I've had of late but there's definitely a solution to the problem!
I mostly struggled on life due to the fact that I was behind on mana and thus couldn't get on board as much as I wanted, I hope the recently made changes will mitigate some of that.

Tainted Sigil feels rather situational, as it only allows for a certain amount of life to be regained, where as Emperion prevents life loss. Also, I don't plan on hard casting Platinum Emperion but mostly aim to bring it out of the graveyard when needed. It's not something you can do with the enchantments, which I don't see them as options either. Something like Suture Priest or a Soul sister would be a more likely option in that regard. Yet all of those rely on you gaining the life after they hit the board, which is where the Emperion could do something. The high CMC is a considerable downside for sure, but aside from going for the Lab Man win I can also see bringing it back to take a swing, opening up my opponent for a crack back. It's not optimal for sure and there are drawbacks as well.
Yeah, honestly I think most of what you'd run to mitigate life loss is somewhat situational, really. You could lean into extort with Crypt Ghast and Pontiff of Blight, but for a lean mana base that might be a little tough, and as you mention it does mean leaning on ETB's. I just feel like Emperion is a really weird add to solve a very specific problem that could probably be mopped up with other options. I agree Suture Priest could do some work, and perhaps Blood Artist would be worth a slot too considering it'll trigger off of any death, not just your creatures'.

The other option you have is going for lifelink tech. Witch's Clinic just got dropped, you could look at that. Sword of War and Peace/Loxodon Warhammer/Shadowspear could be worth it. I'm just spitballing here.
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I'm a big g fan of Shadows pear, but what is the situation you're facing where life is an issue with a commander that gains you (albeit small) chunks of life? Is it a more aggressive deck? Someone with a strong aristocrats game?

My experience has been that %$#%$#'s trigger along with one of the zombies that gain you life one way or another have been enough in most games to weather anything besides massive swings. I suspect a board wipe or counter spell would be a more direct solution.

If you're already running alternate wincons, perhaps Approach of the Second Sun could be your jam?

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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

I face aristocrats regularly but not to a point that they are troublesome, I've played that kind of style enough to know how to assess their board. It's usually the landfall and big green decks that trample a lot over the zombies or manage to go as wide. I can hang in there and still eek out wins, but usually my life total is in the single digits.

Approach is just too mana intense for my liking, especially since you can't cheat your way around it in this deck.

I'm just looking at additional ways to get some card draw going, especially after a mass reanimate since the deck has no haste effects to take full advantage of it. Ideally I'd have something like Teferi's Protection but that's a bit on the expensive side for me right now to pick up. Aside from Platinum Emperion I feel the only other good option is actually Grim Haruspex, since it doesn't have the life loss attached to it.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Nimbaway wrote:
2 years ago
I'm just looking at additional ways to get some card draw going, especially after a mass reanimate since the deck has no haste effects to take full advantage of it. Ideally I'd have something like Teferi's Protection but that's a bit on the expensive side for me right now to pick up. Aside from Platinum Emperion I feel the only other good option is actually Grim Haruspex, since it doesn't have the life loss attached to it.
I've looked into haste before too - Mogis's Marauder is a pretty good option and actually gives you pretty good combat evasion too. I don't personally feel like I need to include it as combat isn't my win condition predominantly, but it's a pretty decent option if combat is yours.

As for draw without life loss....Decree of Pain? Distant Melody? Tolarian Winds? Disciple of Bolas? Drogskol Reaver? Vanish into Memory?
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Well, I squeezed a game in quickly just now. I did not win, although I did do ok, despite some fairly rusty threat assessment.

Had some good board presence early with a t1 Gravecrawler and t2 Relentless Dead coming into an early Varina, started digging and filling my yard, had some reasonable board control in hand with Swords to Plowshares and True Love's Kiss in hand too.

Ultimately I eventually ran out of gas after missing about 3-4 land drops in a row and really having to cobble together some plays. I was playing against Lathril, Blade of the Elves who never really got off the ground, Kodama of the East Tree/Tormod, the Desecrator and Osgir, the Reconstructor, who spent most of the game cantripping in and out of the graveyard and stringing together basically artifact storm. He eventually comboed off with Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle, Krark-Clan Ironworks, Skyscanner, Myr Retriever and Reckless Fireweaver. Not the tightest combo, but there's tons of redundancy in the deck such that he could've easily put the combo back together upon disruption anyway. No shade, I can respect someone putting together that sort of combo, and by this point my hand was really lean and I'd already bit a Tormod's Crypt anyway, so I was racing his life total to 0 and he won.

I did come across Search for Glory early. It was turn 2 or 3 and it wasn't the right play to cast it. I would've probably grabbed Sword of the Animist as my first two lands were Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx anyway, but I'd have lost a turn finding it, a turn casting and equipping it, and given I missed a lot of land drops I'd have been way behind in tempo by that point, so I ended up dropping it in the yard.

It's still fairly early days given I didn't actually cast it, but it felt suboptimal at a time where I needed something pretty great to turn things around, so I can't see that it's going to perform well moving forward. I might give it one more whirl and see if it feels right to cast next time it crops up, but I'm not optimistic.

I'd still like something else to sort the land issue out, and as I'm writing this I wonder; has anyone tried Land Tax in this shell? I've just pulled one out of a Bruna, the Fading Light build that doesn't really need it (yeah, you heard me right), so I probably have it spare to slot in. It plays nicely with Varina, Lich Queen's attack trigger, makes sure you have land drops and enough in the hand to filter your yard nicely and keep a full hand.....thoughts?
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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Land Tax is probably a solid call here. Even one trigger of it will help with Varina's filtering. I would try that here.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
Land Tax is probably a solid call here. Even one trigger of it will help with Varina's filtering. I would try that here.
Yeah I figure even without a way to get all of your basics in play it gets them into hand so that you're a) getting better filtering from Varina and b) have better options to sculpt your hand with, while still not gambling on your next land drop. In theory its the best of both worlds.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Well, I've managed to get some game-play in over the last week or so. Nothing really spectacular, mostly on account of mismatch games. The deck has performed fairly well in most places. Some of it I've gone over in Wizard's Varina thread, and considering they seem to be going through quite the brainstorming phase at the moment I've been hanging out a bit over there. Updates here take a little longer as getting physical cards is always a little delayed for me. As well as that, a lot of the speculative changes I've been tossing up are getting pretty pricey.

Firstly, recent changes:
Search for Glory I've just never wanted to cast, it's never been the right card, so I'm pretty confident in just pulling it out. Sword of the Animist has been pretty good. It's not always the right choice, but when you're land tight it's fairly reliable and curves fairly nicely with early zombie drops. Grimgrin, Corpse-Born has been fairly good, although sitting at the 5 CMC slot as key pieces tend to do in this deck is a little problematic. Being as most of his value is as an instant sacrifice outlet I'm in two minds as to whether he just becomes an Ashnod's Altar to kill two birds with one stone and give us a little burst mana as well as a sac outlet. Sadly, I've yet to see Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant even once. Being still untested and potentially either great or bad, I still want to put him to the test before I decide if he stays or goes.

Further discussion:
I've got some upcoming changes some of which have been discussed here, some in @WizardMN's thread, but nothing set in stone yet. I've been toying around with Land Tax and the results have been pleasing. Archaeomancer's Map is the new white hotness, and comes with a price tag to match at present. I'd love a copy, but I'm reluctant to grab it for 35NZD. It would be amazing with Land Tax though, which will definitely find a place here once I've got changes firmly decided so I might spend some birthday money in the next month or so. Wizard has been trialling Rhystic Study and I think it'd be golden here for supplementary draw, subtle control and a recursive piece for Dance of the Manse to pick up, but the price is a little restrictive for, at least right now. I'm also looking at optimising my removal suite too. We've already gone over some options, and there's a couple of things I'm in two minds about. I still think Toxic Deluge is best in slot, but again, $$$. Same goes for Damnation, and I'm not really willing to pay the going rate for it, for what it is I'd rather spend 1/4 of the price on Wrath of God. I'm still on the fence with Supreme Verdict after a tough couple of games against a Temur combo deck that ran a pretty expansive low to the ground counterspell suite the other day. I had a couple of opportunities to get some big plays in with wipes and got comboed out after several 1cmc counters, so while the color splash is tough, I think it might be worth having it in the mix anyway.

Finally, we've been discussing card filtering too, and some of the blue cantrip spells have come up. I'm reluctant myself, but one of the suggestions I mentioned to Wizard was Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin. I've run it to good effect in Dralnu, Lich Lord, and I like that it's very low impact/high opportunity. Bottom line of value it gives us stuff in the yard and a land. Top value it helps us dig for non-permanent spells once it flips, and for this deck those are often game-winning spells. I'm personally not sure there's really anything else the deck needs or that fits optimally, but I did toss up whether or not The Scarab God might be deserving of a slot again. I think it's probably a no, as it just gets targeted into the ground before you see any deck filtering 9 times out of 10, but it's also cheaper than Sensei's Divining Top. This last also came up, but it's way out of my league for cost so it's a hard no from me. I kind of hate it too, it holds games up massively.

So lots of food for thought, some changes coming. I'm gonna keep my eye out for MH2 spoilers without holding my breath, and I'm also going to try and pile up some LGS credit with trades for some optimal pieces in the next little bit.

Other than that I do have some other pieces coming through. I'm going to add in Putrid Goblin for another low-curve beater (as well as a combo piece if I really need it), Mission Briefing for retrieval of spells if and when needed, and possibly some variation of low-costed wipes; Hour of Revelation has been great for me elsewhere, and I'm tossing up testing out Black Sun's Zenith too.

For now though, TBC until I can pick some pieces up.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

I managed to get a little game play in yesterday and had some good playtesting come up. It wasn't the most exciting game and finished really unsatisfactorily, but there was some interesting stuff to come out of it.

4 player game against Eutropia the Twice-Favored, Xyris, the Writhing Storm and Etali, Primal Storm. I kept a hand with 4 lands, Archaeomancer's Map (I proxied a few test cards in), Diregraf Captain. It was my second mulligan, so I scryed Unholy Grotto to bottom deck. The other lands were 2 swamps and an island so I had an early zombie, but frustratingly had to wait for Map to come online.

Glossing over minute details very briefly, Etali, Primal Storm ran away with the game by ramping the dino into play early with Lightning Greaves to swing early and just taking all the value. In terms of threat assessment he came right for Eutropia the Twice-Favored which seemed like (and was) really bad threat assessment. After a few top deck plays Etali had a Gravecrawler and Undead Warchief of mine and was taking up a ton of time wallowing in how well his game was going.

I ramped well enough with Archaeomancer's Map but did less well than I expected with two Simic blends at the table. I eventually drew into Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant which I hard cast to accompany my Diregraf Captain and just played draw-go otherwise. Xyris, the Writhing Storm did it's usual snake thing and eventually drew into Doubling Season and Impact Tremors which was a death knell for the table upon next turn. Etali still chose to target Eutropia the Twice-Favored which is entirely baffling to me but that's the game I guess. They strung some extra attacks together, knocked Eutropia the Twice-Favored out of the game and swung at me on their last attack step, I blocked with Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant and activated his Disk trigger to pop the Season and Tremors.

At this point Etali, Primal Storm had to go, so scooped and left, and the game was pretty well over with neither of the remaining players being inclined to basically start the game over again from scratch. It always warps the game when someone leaves abruptly. So, ultimately, no end result. Huge bummer.

At any rate, Archaeomancer's Map was fine. It got lands on the battlefield, slower than I'd hoped for and probably not in the quantities I'd hoped for either. At first blush my assessment is that in a vacuum it is good, but I don't know that I'd pay the current going rate for it. In the right meta, at the right table, with Land Tax on board too, it could be disgusting. But that's a lot of conditions to meet. Ultimately I think Land Tax is the better card in more scenarios, but it is nice to have more than one basket to put your eggs in, and that's where the value is for it, and that's why it's so sought after right now. I'm going to wait a few weeks myself and see where the price settles before I decide I'm grabbing a copy.

Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant hitting play was nice too, although the circumstances were less than optimal. Hardcasting didn't end up being all that big of a deal, but having to do so without any other death triggers was a bit of a bummer. I think to really make him optimal leaning into blink or flash with stuff like Ghostly Flicker/Emergence Zone/Winding Canyons would be best. I don't see the immediate need for any of these for anything else (although given it's cost and utility I really do like Emergence Zone and the opportunity cost of running it is minimal) so for what that's worth it was suboptimal just playing him on a draw-go strategy.

The disk effect was really nice though. I think it's a really redeeming factor, and with a sacrifice outlet readily available it would really put people on edge, and that's pretty cool.

I don't think I'm entirely decided for or against Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant yet, I want some more gameplay with him first in a more reasonable game that flows a little better than this one did; in a different game I'd have turfed him for reanimation, but I needed the rattlesnake and had to hedge bets that there was at least one way to get rid of Doubling Season and Impact Tremors, because no one else seemed inclined to manage them. Nonetheless, this seems to be the lowest point of value for him which isn't terrible.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Glossing over minute details very briefly, Etali, Primal Storm ran away with the game by ramping the dino into play early with Lightning Greaves to swing early and just taking all the value. In terms of threat assessment he came right for Eutropia the Twice-Favored which seemed like (and was) really bad threat assessment.
Maybe because they were Simic? I don't know but it seems like Xyris is easily the target. At least, going in on everything blind which, if they ramped that hard, it probably was.
I eventually drew into Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant which I hard cast to accompany my Diregraf Captain and just played draw-go otherwise. Xyris, the Writhing Storm did it's usual snake thing and eventually drew into Doubling Season and Impact Tremors which was a death knell for the table upon next turn. Etali still chose to target Eutropia the Twice-Favored which is entirely baffling to me but that's the game I guess.
I guess I called that one...I didn't even need to read this far to know who the threat should have been :) And yeah, continuing to go after someone after someone else has clearly demonstrated control of the game is exceptionally frustrating.
I'm going to wait a few weeks myself and see where the price settles before I decide I'm grabbing a copy.
I already see it slowly going up so I just bit the bullet and bought the 5 copies I wanted for my decks. It might go down eventually (it really should since it is in a precon) but I thought the same thing about Fierce Guardianship....
Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant hitting play was nice too, although the circumstances were less than optimal. Hardcasting didn't end up being all that big of a deal, but having to do so without any other death triggers was a bit of a bummer. I think to really make him optimal leaning into blink or flash with stuff like Ghostly Flicker/Emergence Zone/Winding Canyons would be best. I don't see the immediate need for any of these for anything else (although given it's cost and utility I really do like Emergence Zone and the opportunity cost of running it is minimal) so for what that's worth it was suboptimal just playing him on a draw-go strategy.

The disk effect was really nice though. I think it's a really redeeming factor, and with a sacrifice outlet readily available it would really put people on edge, and that's pretty cool.

I don't think I'm entirely decided for or against Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant yet, I want some more gameplay with him first in a more reasonable game that flows a little better than this one did; in a different game I'd have turfed him for reanimation, but I needed the rattlesnake and had to hedge bets that there was at least one way to get rid of Doubling Season and Impact Tremors, because no one else seemed inclined to manage them. Nonetheless, this seems to be the lowest point of value for him which isn't terrible.
I am glad you got him on the board at least (that is farther than I ever got with him) and I think you might be right that he might be better suited for something with a blink theme (or subtheme). I can't remember if I ever had Winding Canyons in my build (it seems like I did since I put it in everything else) but I agree that would make him a bit better but the deck really doesn't need it so it is hard to justify.

I think your idea of why you want him makes sense, but I think I prefer Cleansing Nova or Hour of Revelation to do it. Even Heliod's Intervention is growing on me. While your game is simply one data point, it does show that you had to have things line up right to get use out of him and even if you did have a sac outlet, it would have been 7 mana that turn to blow things up.

Maybe there is a card or two that really makes him shine *and* those cards make sense in the deck for reasons other than him. Or maybe the floor you experienced is still good enough.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Maybe because they were Simic? I don't know but it seems like Xyris is easily the target. At least, going in on everything blind which, if they ramped that hard, it probably was.
Yeah, the assessment was not great. Simic is strong always, but Eutropia the Twice-Favored is so much weaker than Xyris, the Writhing Storm it was just clearly the wrong choice of target. I'm especially wary of the flying snake anyway as it really doesn't take much for it to be a really strong build but this guy was just way, way off the mark.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I already see it slowly going up so I just bit the bullet and bought the 5 copies I wanted for my decks. It might go down eventually (it really should since it is in a precon) but I thought the same thing about Fierce Guardianship....
It's dropped a couple of bucks in the last week or so since release. I don't expect it to be anything less than like $20, but it's also a risk I'm willing to take. I did a quick tally of all of the optimal pieces I'd need for the deck that we've discussed over on your thread and it totals up to like 150NZD, which is just too much to pay. I've got a few RL pieces I can trade, but I don't really want to for anything that isn't going to hold it's value.
WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I am glad you got him on the board at least (that is farther than I ever got with him) and I think you might be right that he might be better suited for something with a blink theme (or subtheme). I can't remember if I ever had Winding Canyons in my build (it seems like I did since I put it in everything else) but I agree that would make him a bit better but the deck really doesn't need it so it is hard to justify.

I think your idea of why you want him makes sense, but I think I prefer Cleansing Nova or Hour of Revelation to do it. Even Heliod's Intervention is growing on me. While your game is simply one data point, it does show that you had to have things line up right to get use out of him and even if you did have a sac outlet, it would have been 7 mana that turn to blow things up.

Maybe there is a card or two that really makes him shine *and* those cards make sense in the deck for reasons other than him. Or maybe the floor you experienced is still good enough.
Yeah, jury's still out here. This was kind of a '%$#% around and find out'/'swing at me if you dare' casting, which was actually just what I needed in the situation, but that's not always going to be of value. I've got an Hour of Revelation to pick up soon anyway, it's a very good card that I like a lot, so there's an easy swap if I really need it.

I think there's a few scenarios in which it's possible he could be good or even great, I just need a few more data points to know how reliable those scenarios and how many hoops I need to jump through for him to shine.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, jury's still out here. This was kind of a '%$#% around and find out'/'swing at me if you dare' casting, which was actually just what I needed in the situation, but that's not always going to be of value. I've got an Hour of Revelation to pick up soon anyway, it's a very good card that I like a lot, so there's an easy swap if I really need it.

I think there's a few scenarios in which it's possible he could be good or even great, I just need a few more data points to know how reliable those scenarios and how many hoops I need to jump through for him to shine.
Which, I will admit, is sort of point in favor of Nev. While things like Hour are basically just "I am going to cast this and reset", Nev offers the threat which also offers time. That is, we can cast him and then just sit on him while drawing cards and planning for a rebuild, or even just let people overextend to take care of each other while somewhat ignoring us. We know we have an out to a lot of things and so do our opponents so they might be fine with leaving us alone so their board isn't messed with.

On the flip side, especially in your situation above, one Swords to Plowshares and we lose our leverage and our out. Hopefully we have a sac outlet and the 7 mana needed for him (or whatever it would be if reanimating him) but the hail mary plays where we get him down and pray are the ones I am most wary of.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Yeah, jury's still out here. This was kind of a '%$#% around and find out'/'swing at me if you dare' casting, which was actually just what I needed in the situation, but that's not always going to be of value. I've got an Hour of Revelation to pick up soon anyway, it's a very good card that I like a lot, so there's an easy swap if I really need it.

I think there's a few scenarios in which it's possible he could be good or even great, I just need a few more data points to know how reliable those scenarios and how many hoops I need to jump through for him to shine.
Which, I will admit, is sort of point in favor of Nev. While things like Hour are basically just "I am going to cast this and reset", Nev offers the threat which also offers time. That is, we can cast him and then just sit on him while drawing cards and planning for a rebuild, or even just let people overextend to take care of each other while somewhat ignoring us. We know we have an out to a lot of things and so do our opponents so they might be fine with leaving us alone so their board isn't messed with.

On the flip side, especially in your situation above, one Swords to Plowshares and we lose our leverage and our out. Hopefully we have a sac outlet and the 7 mana needed for him (or whatever it would be if reanimating him) but the hail mary plays where we get him down and pray are the ones I am most wary of.
Yep, this was very well put. This first paragraph was me this game. It's nice to be able to just stay under the radar, plan to pop the board and rebuild more quickly than your opponents. In most circumstances I think this is going to be the play with a slow start and needing to get ducks in a row prior to popping him. It worked quite well last night, so I think this is probably going to be how he plays out on a hardcast.

In the above scenario I did have God-Eternal Bontu in hand when the game ended, so the option was there. I've also got a copy of Plumb the Forbidden to slot in, which I'm growing fonder of the more I think of it (the way it's worded you get one draw and sac to copy the spell, which is really great value), as well as plenty of other sacrifice outlets. I feel like I'm covered mostly at any rate.

I think the biggest question mark is getting value from his ETB trigger. Without instant speed you need one of these things:
- a board wipe and the mana to cast him afterwards
- Living Death
- Apprentice Necromancer

And it only gets more complex from there. Instant speed you're looking at a sac outlet plus:
- Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
- Apprentice Necromancer
- Port of Karfell (which is more expensive than hardcasting him anyway).

Ultimately I think it's going to end up being too hard to reliably get value from the ETB, there's just too few engines to make it work, so really it's a case of whether his Disk ability is worth enough for him to stay. There's a few other spells that could make his ETB work, things like Kaya's Ghostform, Undying Evil, Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire, Supernatural Stamina and such, but I don't really see a space for these for any other reason, so I think they're probably a waste of time.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
I'm been lurking. Carrion Feeder, Nantuko Husk, and Phyrexian Ghoul could help.
Carrion Feeder is in both of our lists, so that is already present. The other two are just so bad though. Feeder is nice because it is counters (as is Grimgrin for that matter) whereas the others just get chumped that turn and then do nothing subsequent turns. While they help with this specific situation, I don't think they are good enough overall to use. One of the Altars or some noncreature sac outlet would work better than those two.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
I'm been lurking. Carrion Feeder, Nantuko Husk, and Phyrexian Ghoul could help.
I've been running Carrion Feeder for quite a while, it's very very good here. The other two I've always seen as more fleeting value and thus less usable. For a pump I've got Grimgrin, Corpse-Born and it's a more permanent thing, despite the higher CMC.

Honestly I think the best in slot to support Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant would be Phyrexian Altar. Instant speed, low to the ground and harder to remove, plus it helps you cast him.

I'm just not sure that's worthwhile anyway though. You can reliably do this on your turn and that's fine and all, but I think it'd be a lot more beneficial to be able to do it at instant speed which is just too hard to reliably do. Goryo's Vengeance I guess?
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Phyrexian Altar + Gravecrawler too. I know you're not up on that infinite combo, but it's just one combo that you could unintentionally not look for yet in a pinch use.

Oops. I have that possibility in my Ayara deck to drain the table. Please disregard.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Phyrexian Altar + Gravecrawler too. I know you're not up on that infinite combo, but it's just one combo that you could unintentionally not look for yet in a pinch use.
Yeah, I've tossed up Ashnod's Altar purely because it's not as busted. I'm not averse to combo entirely, you always have the option of just not using it.

I do have a Phyrexian Altar but it is in use in Yawgmoth, Thran Physician. It's just too expensive to get another copy of unfortunately. It already was, and then the price skyrocketed in the last year.

Ultimately I just don't think I'm that committed to making Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant if he doesn't feel like a natural fit already. If he's cut, he's cut is where my thinking is. It'd be different with him at the helm, like I'd be happy to throw in some tech to make it work, but for one in the 99 that could be a bit questionable? Not so much.
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