Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[toctheyounger]

...Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway/Brightclimb Pathway // Grimclimb Pathway - These are fairly decent options for fixing, really. I feel like mostly I have very few issues these days with colour fixing, but the opportunity cost of is very low of these, so I'll probably pick them up at some point...

Agreed, these seem like the main includes for the deck, if anything. Shame that there isn't much else but, like you say, this is the wrong plane for Zombies.

While we're on the topic of manabases, I would be interested in thoughts on my current set up.

Manabase

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Cabal Coffers

1 Cavern of Souls

1 City of Brass

1 Command Tower

1 Drowned Catacomb

1 Field of the Dead

1 Flooded Strand

1 Glacial Fortress

1 Godless Shrine

1 Hallowed Fountain

2 Island

1 Isolated Chapel

1 Mana Confluence

1 Marsh Flats

1 Morphic Pool

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Reflecting Pool

1 Reliquary Tower

1 Sea of Clouds

1 Silent Clearing

1 Sunken Hollow

5 Swamp

1 Tainted Isle

1 Underground River

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of the Archangel

1 Watery Grave

Approximate Total Cost:

Having not had any games in yet I'm hoping that Varina (and her lifegain) can support City of Brass, Mana Confluence along side the Fetches, shock lands and pain lands, etc.

The decklist I'm starting out with will be very similar to toctheyounger's Primer decklist - seeing as that seems very well tested and I'm a noob to the deck.

I'm interested as to whether it would be best to include Fetid Pools or Sunken Hollow. I have gone with Hollow above as that has the potential to enter untapped but the Cycling on Fetid Pools adds a tad more utility.

This looks pretty stellar to me. Clearly you've got a bit of money to throw at this, so the fetches and shocks et al will serve you very well, as will Cavern of Souls.

Cabal Coffers ended up being surplus to requirement for my build. It's not often I need that burst b, and the fact that it doesn't tap for b standardly hurts when you can't search for it via Expedition Map and such.

I'll be interested to see how you go with Field of the Dead - I can't remember which page, but some pages ago we discussed it's inclusion here and ultimately my thoughts are it's a tough sell. In my opinion (and experience running it in Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Nissa, Sage Animist) it really benefits most for turbo-ramp, land sac and recursion, and an Esper land base, no matter how optimal makes it more of a grindy incremental value option than anything else. You might net 1-2 zombies per turn, but that's probably it. That might be enough to make it worthwhile; personally, being without any suite of fetches whatsoever, it just doesn't fit in my build and I'd prefer to be able to fix colours.

I think you'll be fine with City of Brass and Mana Confluence - you're running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth too, so you can tap them for b without gouging yourself in the right conditions. Otherwise, between Varina and her aristocrats you should be fine for life loss, I'd say you'll be ok.

Personally, I don't think Reliquary Tower is required here; in fact, there's situations it'll hurt. It means if you overdraw, you can't get creatures into your yard for reanimation. It also makes discard effects like Bone Miser and Archfiend of Ifnir a pretty tough sell, and they're both pretty excellent mechanics to abuse. Granted, I run Zombie Infestation to do this at will, but the cleanup step is an absolutely free way to achieve the discard if I can't find any other way to shed my hand. It's a divisive card, though; some will run it in any deck the land pool can fit it in, I just don't think it's an auto-include myself.

[LEH]

Not really throwing money at it, I've just been playing a while and never sold anything off lol. I generally take a look at each set and pick up either a playset or singles of what I think I may play and that's how my collection has grown over the years. I have the OG duels too but I tend to put them in more competitive decks - I'm planning this just to be medium power; something to pick up in a new meta and have a bit of fun with. Aiming for consistent mana but not perfect mana.

Yeah, like you, I'm not planning on running any tutors (although I am toying with adding Sidisi, Undead Vizier) so maybe it's not the best replacement. I kinda just preferred the idea of the combo over just running Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. However, you bring up a solid point about it not producing mana on it's own.

In regards to including Field, I wasn't planning on it being explosive or anything. It just seems like a grindy uncounterable "problem for my opponents" once it gets online. Pooping out a Zombie once in a while just through playing a land seems okay. I get that it eats up a potential coloured mana source but I was hoping to mitigate that a bit with the rest of my manabase. Did you (or anyone else) do much testing with it? It definitely does seem very slow but the uncounterability, inevitability and synergy with the deck makes me want to try it out.

Yeah, I've played them in my more competitive multicoloured decks and my Oloro deck to great success. I do believe that City of Brass still deals damage even when tapped with Urborg in play (annoying wording on the card lol) but Urborg and Confluence definitely pair nicely together. I've definitely found City and Confluence are exceptionally useful in any deck running 3+ colours in them.

I see. Yeah, those are very valid points indeed. It definitely seems that Reliquary Tower has some anti-synergy with the deck then.

I appreciate your feedback, thank you.

What are your thoughts on:

Custodi Lich, Fleshbag Marauder, Rhystic Study and Oubliette? Additionally, what would you most likely cut for Undead Warchief?

[toctheyounger]

Not really throwing money at it, I've just been playing a while and never sold anything off lol. I generally take a look at each set and pick up either a playset or singles of what I think I may play and that's how my collection has grown over the years. I have the OG duels too but I tend to put them in more competitive decks - I'm planning this just to be medium power; something to pick up in a new meta and have a bit of fun with. Aiming for consistent mana but not perfect mana.

Fair enough - I just missed most of this stuff, so I'm lacking in true staples like fetches and duals. One makes do though. This deck should more or less fit well for what you're trying to do. It has games where it moves pretty quick. others it grinds, mostly it's a pretty consistent 7-9/10 by my reckoning.

Yeah, like you, I'm not planning on running any tutors (although I am toying with adding Sidisi, Undead Vizier) so maybe it's not the best replacement. I kinda just preferred the idea of the combo over just running Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. However, you bring up a solid point about it not producing mana on it's own.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier is definitely worth a slot imo. He's easy enough to pop and on tribe while not being as crazy as hard tutors like vampiric or demonic. If you have it, I'd run it.

In regards to including Field, I wasn't planning on it being explosive or anything. It just seems like a grindy uncounterable "problem for my opponents" once it gets online. Pooping out a Zombie once in a while just through playing a land seems okay. I get that it eats up a potential coloured mana source but I was hoping to mitigate that a bit with the rest of my manabase. Did you (or anyone else) do much testing with it? It definitely does seem very slow but the uncounterability, inevitability and synergy with the deck makes me want to try it out.

I haven't tested it myself, but then I also don't have a)the land variance to hit 7+ individually named lands, b) the land acceleration to get more than one token per turn cycle, so I kind of knew it was going to be a dead duck for me - especially entering tapped and not colour fixing, too. My land base is just a lot less forgiving. With fetches/crucible it's a different metric altogether, and could be pretty strong. I just don't have that sort of disposable income to grab them myself.

I see. Yeah, those are very valid points indeed. It definitely seems that Reliquary Tower has some anti-synergy with the deck then.

I mean it's not the end of the world to have it in the deck and wheel it or not play it in favour of other options, I just don't think it adds much, so I don't have it here myself.

What are your thoughts on:

Custodi Lich, Fleshbag Marauder, Rhystic Study and Oubliette? Additionally, what would you most likely cut for Undead Warchief?

Rhystic Study is an easy swap for Mystic Remora - they're both great, I just have one and not the other myself. Either will do. Fleshbag Marauder....I don't include them myself purely because it's been done, you know? And if you do include it, you're then pursuing the Grave Pact/Dictate of Erebos line, and that's been done, too. On it's own it's ok, but nothing spectacular, so unless you're going for the classic black attrition line I personally don't see the point. Oubliette seems pretty decent, but I wonder if it fits better in a deck that has further ways of abusing and reusing it. I've considered it for a Tayam, Luminous Enigma deck I'm brewing, but I don't know that I'd want it here. Custodi Lich I haven't tried, but honestly, the Monarch mechanic is really underestimated - we've spent a lot of time talking it over in my Bruna, the Fading Light primer, and it does great work there. Custodi Lich maybe a little steep to cast, but it's potentially worth it for the continued draw and pseudo-removal. It probably needs playtesting, purely because it gives a lot of incentive to attack into us, and I'm not 100% sure how that would play out.

Undead Warchief I'm actually trying to squeeze into the list myself, just come up on a copy recently along with Unholy Grotto. I'd say it's 50/50 for that or Cemetery Reaper, either fits the deck just fine.

[yeti1069]

While we're on the topic of manabases, I would be interested in thoughts on my current set up.

Manabase

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Cabal Coffers

1 Cavern of Souls

1 City of Brass

1 Command Tower

1 Drowned Catacomb

1 Field of the Dead

1 Flooded Strand

1 Glacial Fortress

1 Godless Shrine

1 Hallowed Fountain

2 Island

1 Isolated Chapel

1 Mana Confluence

1 Marsh Flats

1 Morphic Pool

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Reflecting Pool

1 Reliquary Tower

1 Sea of Clouds

1 Silent Clearing

1 Sunken Hollow

5 Swamp

1 Tainted Isle

1 Underground River

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of the Archangel

1 Watery Grave

Approximate Total Cost:

Having not had any games in yet I'm hoping that Varina (and her lifegain) can support City of Brass, Mana Confluence along side the Fetches, shock lands and pain lands, etc.

The decklist I'm starting out with will be very similar to toctheyounger's Primer decklist - seeing as that seems very well tested and I'm a noob to the deck.

I'm interested as to whether it would be best to include Fetid Pools or Sunken Hollow. I have gone with Hollow above as that has the potential to enter untapped but the Cycling on Fetid Pools adds a tad more utility.

My thoughts are that Tainted Isle is a liability. Including all the fetchlands, you have 13 Swamps in the deck. That doesn't strike me as enough to be running the Tainted lands, especially since you may not want to be fetching a Swamp with some of those.

I feel like you have too many colorless lands.

I dropped Cabal Coffers early on, as I found that I rarely had enough actual Swamps in play to make it worth having, and I didn't want to be spending early turns fetching Urborg to support it. Too often, it was a dead card. Nykthos, on the other hand, is a better inclusion, I think, since it always taps for at least .

Field of the Dead got me excited at first, but I find it's rare for the deck to end up with 7 lands in play, let alone have the game go long enough for multiple triggers. The most ideal situation is you have Field in play with 5 other lands, drop a fetch, make a zombie, fetch for something you don't already have in play and make another. That's great, but I'm looking at the games I'm playing, and I just don't see it coming up much. So, for the rest of the time, it's a tapped, colorless land. The floor is pretty low, and the ceiling isn't that high unless you are regularly playing 10+ turn games where you're making every land drop.

For my deck, I'm running every dual basic land type I can (don't have the ABURs), but the bicycle duals are solid with fetches.

The pain lands, like City of Brass, I wouldn't be too concerned with. The deck gains some life, which should offset the pain and then some.

[LEH]

Those are some very valid informative points, thank you. Additional confirmation that Coffers and Field are bad will move me on from them then.

Cabal Coffers, Tainted Isle, Reliquary Tower and Field of the Dead will be replaced. I'm thinking Isle will be replaced with Fetid Pools, Coffers with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Tower will likely become Caves of Koilos. I'm thinking that Field may end up as Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway for a bit of added additional fixing once I get a hold of a copy; it's either that of Hall of Heliod's Generosity.

[yeti1069]

How many enchantments are you running that you feel you NEED to get back with Hall?

The flip lands are cute, but for my part, I'd rather have something that can make 2 or more types of mana. My version of the deck has fewer cards with or , but I still have turns where I need to cast multiple spells with a non-black color, and don't want to be restricted on what my lands are producing if it can be helped. With having to choose which color the land comes in as, I feel like there are going to be times where you NEED one half, but a turn or two later wish you had played something that taps either option instead. I could be wrong, but that's my initial thought.

[LEH]

I guess just Tombstone Stairwell is the main one I was thinking. The rest will trade with removal. I'm essentially trying out a very similar list to toctheyounger's - until I find what build works for me. Arcane Sanctum, Exotic Orchard, Prairie Stream or Irrigated Farmland are the cards that stick out to me as replacements for the slot. Of those, I prefer Irrigated Farmland the most due to being able to "Cycle" it away later in the game and fetch for it tapped EOT, if required.

Current Varina build

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

COMMANDER

1 Varina, Lich Queen

CREATURES

1 Apprentice Necromancer

1 Archfiend of Ifnir

1 Bone Miser

1 Carrion Feeder

1 Cemetery Reaper

1 Corpse Knight

1 Cryptbreaker

1 Death Baron

1 Diregraf Captain

1 Diregraf Colossus

1 God-Eternal Oketra

1 Graveborn Muse

1 Gravecrawler

1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

1 Liliana's Standard Bearer

1 Lord of the Accursed

1 Lord of the Undead

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed

1 Noxious Ghoul

1 Plague Belcher

1 Relentless Dead

1 Shepherd of Rot

1 The Scarab God

1 Undead Augur

1 Undead Warchief

1 Vengeful Dead

1 Wayward Servant

1 Withered Wretch

1 Zombie Master

ARTIFACTS

1 Alhammarret's Archive

1 Arcane Signet

1 Dimir Signet

1 Eldrazi Monument

1 Sol Ring

1 Talisman of Dominance

1 Talisman of Hierarchy

ENCHANTMENTS

1 Kindred Discovery

1 Rhystic Study

1 Smothering Tithe

1 Teferi's Ageless Insight

1 Tombstone Stairwell

1 Zombie Infestation

SPELLS

1 Ancient Excavation

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Arcane Denial

1 Austere Command

1 Counterspell

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Generous Gift

1 Living Death

1 Mirrorweave

1 Patriarch's Bidding

1 Peer into the Abyss

1 Supreme Verdict

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 True Love's Kiss

1 Utter End

1 Winds of Abandon

1 Zombie Apocalypse

PLANESWALKER

1 Liliana, Untouched by Death

LANDS

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Cavern of Souls

1 Caves of Koilos

1 City of Brass

1 Command Tower

1 Drowned Catacomb

1 Fetid Pools

1 Flooded Strand

1 Glacial Fortress

1 Godless Shrine

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Irrigated Farmland

2 Island

1 Isolated Chapel

1 Mana Confluence

1 Marsh Flats

1 Morphic Pool

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Plains

1 Polluted Delta

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Reflecting Pool

1 Sea of Clouds

1 Silent Clearing

1 Sunken Hollow

5 Swamp

1 Underground River

1 Unholy Grotto

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Vault of the Archangel

1 Watery Grave

Approximate Total Cost:

[toctheyounger]

I guess just Tombstone Stairwell is the main one I was thinking.

For what it's worth, I can't remember the last time I used Hall for that. It's nice to have the option, but it's really a safety valve that you probably won't have to access. Especially with Tombstone Stairwell - if it resolves and you've played your cards right, pun intended, the game will end. One way or another. Honestly, the card is that nuts, you really shouldn't need to play it a second time. Don't let that cumulative upkeep scare you, it doesn't take long to wreck the board with it. The most I've ever paid for it was like....2 age counters maybe?

This is why I dropped Dance of the Manse btw - it's nice redundancy, but it just ended up sitting in my hand more often than not for a just in case, and in a deck that loots as much as this, you really do need to keep the best of what you draw, so that one maybe slot in your grip is pretty valuable.

All that being said the opportunity cost of running Hall of Heliod's Generosity is pretty low, so I don't know that I'd be overly worried about it not seeing use, bare minimum it still generates mana for you even if you never use it for it's second ability.

[yeti1069]

I've just had too many games where mana colors were an issue, and I try to keep the number of colorless lands down to a minimum. I do run Obzedat's Aid as a catch-all reanimation spell, but I haven't used it very often, and could see dropping it.

In my experience with the deck (and it is similar, I've only occasionally used any of the "return a card (zombie) from graveyard to hand/top of library" effects, and view Hall as generally being much less useful, with fewer relevant targets. Most of the time, I'm looking to chug forward with newly drawn gas than recurring single pieces. They're nice to have, especially as a way of extending the "my graveyard is part of my hand" game plan, allowing you a little more freedom in what you discard to Varina's ability, but the questions become: how often do you have the 3 mana needed to get back one of those cards? And how often are you in that position without something equivalent or better to do?

I run both Irrigated Farmland and Prairie Stream in my build. I don't know that I've ever cycled the former, but fetchability has been important to me. I don't love that they both (usually) enter tapped, but I have Shocks for when untapped lands are needed.

[LEH]

Has Vengeful Pharaoh been tested by either of you? It seems like it has synergy with Varina's discard (and if I do end up adding Custodi Lich then it punishes them for attacking me too).

[toctheyounger]

Has Vengeful Pharaoh been tested by either of you? It seems like it has synergy with Varina's discard (and if I do end up adding Custodi Lich then it punishes them for attacking me too).

I've looked into it, but it does seem just a little bit like hard work to me. Obviously without having tested I can't be sure, but here's why:

• Top of the library recursion is not stellar by comparison to battlefield, and it does mean that it's eating into how deep I can dig with Varina, Lich Queen.
• It's at the higher end of the curve, and with the type of recursion it has is really only ever going to be valuable as a blocker - I don't run Greaves or Boots because in all other aspects I don't need them, so adding them just for this would be a point against it for me.

I guess in every other aspect it's pretty reasonable as a rattlesnake that you don't ever need to cast, so it might well be worth looking at. And if mass reanimation drags it into play you've got 3 extra pips for Gary or Nykthos.

[LEH]

...
I've looked into it, but it does seem just a little bit like hard work to me. Obviously without having tested I can't be sure, but here's why:

• Top of the library recursion is not stellar by comparison to battlefield, and it does mean that it's eating into how deep I can dig with Varina, Lich Queen.
• It's at the higher end of the curve, and with the type of recursion it has is really only ever going to be valuable as a blocker - I don't run Greaves or Boots because in all other aspects I don't need them, so adding them just for this would be a point against it for me.

I guess in every other aspect it's pretty reasonable as a rattlesnake that you don't ever need to cast, so it might well be worth looking at. And if mass reanimation drags it into play you've got 3 extra pips for Gary or Nykthos.

My thinking behind it is just that it acts as a deterrent for my opponents attacking me - with Pharaoh in my grave my opponents have the choice of attack me but lose their best creature or attack someone else instead (well, at least the first player to attack me would have to make that choice). Additionally, it's an easy discard choice for Varina's trigger that actually does something from the graveyard. Alternatively, it could act as a surprise sniper by discarding it with Zombie Infestation to pick off their best creature once Combat is over.

I agree its form of recursion certainly isn't ideal, as if you're on the back foot and looking for something specific it may get in the way. Also, like you say, it is up there at the top of the mana curve. My thinking is just that it's useful with a few cards in the deck and later on in a game has decent body and a form of evasion (in "Deathtouch") too.

Sorry, I really need to sort out a few games with the deck before I start posting up these questions lol. I have an idea of how the deck runs but once I get rolling with the deck I'm sure I'm going to have a few "ahhh" moments and realise that my questions about card additions are sub-optimal. I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time lol.

[toctheyounger]

My thinking behind it is just that it acts as a deterrent for my opponents attacking me - with Pharaoh in my grave my opponents have the choice of attack me but lose their best creature or attack someone else instead (well, at least the first player to attack me would have to make that choice). Additionally, it's an easy discard choice for Varina's trigger that actually does something from the graveyard. Alternatively, it could act as a surprise sniper by discarding it with Zombie Infestation to pick off their best creature once Combat is over.

I agree its form of recursion certainly isn't ideal, as if you're on the back foot and looking for something specific it may get in the way. Also, like you say, it is up there at the top of the mana curve. My thinking is just that it's useful with a few cards in the deck and later on in a game has decent body and a form of evasion (in "Deathtouch") too.

Sorry, I really need to sort out a few games with the deck before I start posting up these questions lol. I have an idea of how the deck runs but once I get rolling with the deck I'm sure I'm going to have a few "ahhh" moments and realise that my questions about card additions are sub-optimal. I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time lol.

Nah, don't worry about it at all, that's what this thread is for, you're not wasting anyone's time. There's every chance I'm underestimating the card, it could be a great add.

I think for me it just doesn't entirely gel with the way I play the deck at present. I generally try to come out the gates pretty quick and get myself some options in the graveyard, hand and battlefield as best I can until I've got something I can cobble together for a win, whatever that looks like. This one just seems like it's more of a passive option - I think if your meta had things like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Xenagos, God of Revels and stuff that'll just destroy you if it hits more than once, this is a good option. I just don't know if it does fit well into a more proactive plan.

As it is, I generally find for whatever reason that people will take a few hits and it's not that common to retaliate heavily if at all. It's funny, you can kind of chalk it up to politics and such - often I'll throw around 'sorry, I just want the draw' or 'I'm spreading the swings around' or 'sorry bud, that Aetherflux Reservoir can't go off' and they'll mostly just be like 'well, fair enough' and leave you to it without swinging back.

It might be worth testing; I suspect in the right meta it could do some good work.

[toctheyounger]

The flip lands are cute, but for my part, I'd rather have something that can make 2 or more types of mana. My version of the deck has fewer cards with or , but I still have turns where I need to cast multiple spells with a non-black color, and don't want to be restricted on what my lands are producing if it can be helped. With having to choose which color the land comes in as, I feel like there are going to be times where you NEED one half, but a turn or two later wish you had played something that taps either option instead. I could be wrong, but that's my initial thought.

I have wondered about the Jumpstart Thriving lands to this end. They have no option but to enter tapped, but give nice easy options for colour fixing. Otherwise I guess there's Shadowmoor filter lands - Fetid Heath, Mystic Gate, Sunken Ruins. I don't think either are absolutely optimal, but either are feasible options.

Personally I've been relatively ok for colour fixing. There's games I've had to be careful with how I pay for spells but I don't think it's ever ground to a halt altogether. I guess either thrives or filters are relatively cheap options either way.

[LEH]

The flip lands are cute, but for my part, I'd rather have something that can make 2 or more types of mana. My version of the deck has fewer cards with or , but I still have turns where I need to cast multiple spells with a non-black color, and don't want to be restricted on what my lands are producing if it can be helped. With having to choose which color the land comes in as, I feel like there are going to be times where you NEED one half, but a turn or two later wish you had played something that taps either option instead. I could be wrong, but that's my initial thought.

I have wondered about the Jumpstart Thriving lands to this end. They have no option but to enter tapped, but give nice easy options for colour fixing. Otherwise I guess there's Shadowmoor filter lands - Fetid Heath, Mystic Gate, Sunken Ruins. I don't think either are absolutely optimal, but either are feasible options.

Personally I've been relatively ok for colour fixing. There's games I've had to be careful with how I pay for spells but I don't think it's ever ground to a halt altogether. I guess either thrives or filters are relatively cheap options either way.

Thriving Moor is obviously the best of the Thriving lands for the deck. However, I think I would prefer something like Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway and/or Brightclimb Pathway // Grimclimb Pathway myself; not entering tapped is important for tempo and playing on curve.

In regards to the Filter lands, I'm always reluctant to add them into 3+ colour decks. Although the Filter lands are amazing in most 2 colour manabases; I have heard of (and from) a lot of people who have issues with them in decks with more than that. It feels bad having to mulligan a hand anyway but add into the mix a hand either not having access to the correct colour choices early on or just getting a hand with colourless lands in it - I mean these scenarios will be very rare but it has happened to enough people that I'm wary of adding them beyond 2 colours myself. Having said that, if Duels were required and budget was a factor then I would definitely add in either a 1x Sunken Ruins OR Fetid Heath - adding both (or all 3) again increases odds of coming across issues. I would certainly look to upping my Swamp count and adding Tainted Isle and Tainted Field before adding Filter Lands, personally.

[yeti1069]

The flip lands are cute, but for my part, I'd rather have something that can make 2 or more types of mana. My version of the deck has fewer cards with or , but I still have turns where I need to cast multiple spells with a non-black color, and don't want to be restricted on what my lands are producing if it can be helped. With having to choose which color the land comes in as, I feel like there are going to be times where you NEED one half, but a turn or two later wish you had played something that taps either option instead. I could be wrong, but that's my initial thought.

I have wondered about the Jumpstart Thriving lands to this end. They have no option but to enter tapped, but give nice easy options for colour fixing. Otherwise I guess there's Shadowmoor filter lands - Fetid Heath, Mystic Gate, Sunken Ruins. I don't think either are absolutely optimal, but either are feasible options.

Personally I've been relatively ok for colour fixing. There's games I've had to be careful with how I pay for spells but I don't think it's ever ground to a halt altogether. I guess either thrives or filters are relatively cheap options either way.

Thriving Moor is obviously the best of the Thriving lands for the deck. However, I think I would prefer something like Clearwater Pathway // Murkwater Pathway and/or Brightclimb Pathway // Grimclimb Pathway myself; not entering tapped is important for tempo and playing on curve.

In regards to the Filter lands, I'm always reluctant to add them into 3+ colour decks. Although the Filter lands are amazing in most 2 colour manabases; I have heard of (and from) a lot of people who have issues with them in decks with more than that. It feels bad having to mulligan a hand anyway but add into the mix a hand either not having access to the correct colour choices early on or just getting a hand with colourless lands in it - I mean these scenarios will be very rare but it has happened to enough people that I'm wary of adding them beyond 2 colours myself. Having said that, if Duels were required and budget was a factor then I would definitely add in either a 1x Sunken Ruins OR Fetid Heath - adding both (or all 3) again increases odds of coming across issues. I would certainly look to upping my Swamp count and adding Tainted Isle and Tainted Field before adding Filter Lands, personally.

The Thriving lands seem like decent budget options for decks of more than 2 colors, but always coming in tapped and not being fetchable puts them pretty low on my list.

As for the filter lands, I would absolutely run those over the Tainted lands. For the former, you need another source for one of your two colors, whereas for the latter you need a Swamp. That's an enormous difference. I run filters in a few of my 3-color decks and haven't had a problem with them, but I've had issues with the Tainted lands in my 2-color decks.

The point about colorless lands is a good one, and why I recommended going down on that count earlier, not up.

[toctheyounger]

Yeah I'm not hugely in favour of the Thrive lands. It's sacrificing efficiency for flexibility and my iteration does best when it hits the ground running, so I won't be going down that road personally.

The filter lands aren't perfect either and I'm not overly committed to grabbing them right now (with standard rotating I'm gonna stock up on shocks shortly if I can, although that does nothing for this deck). Probably the next step up the food chain is the battlebond duals, Morphic Pool et al. They're out of my range unfortunately, but I am fairly likely to pick up some Commander Legends so I may well end up adding the Orzhov variant in due course.

[LEH]

It's interesting how yeti1069 and I have conflicting views on the Tainted lands. I've rarely had issues running Tainted Lands and I run them in most of my Black decks. I try to aim for a majority of my manabase to focus on tapping for multiple colours of mana so it's rarely really been a problem for them only tapping for colourless until a Swamp comes down - which is usually pretty early on in the decks where Tainted lands are played anyway. I do agree that in this deck, Tainted lands are worse than most options available unless on a budget where you are likely adding/playing more actual Swamps in the deck. The Flip Lands seem better in the deck than Filter Lands, Thrive Lands and Tainted Lands to me though.

[toctheyounger]

It's interesting how yeti1069 and I have conflicting views on the Tainted lands. I've rarely had issues running Tainted Lands and I run them in most of my Black decks. I try to aim for a majority of my manabase to focus on tapping for multiple colours of mana so it's rarely really been a problem for them only tapping for colourless until a Swamp comes down - which is usually pretty early on in the decks where Tainted lands are played anyway. I do agree that in this deck, Tainted lands are worse than most options available unless on a budget where you are likely adding/playing more actual Swamps in the deck. The Flip Lands seem better in the deck than Filter Lands, Thrive Lands and Tainted Lands to me though.

Yeah, I mean I think it depends what works for you; with fetches in your list your lands are probably more forgiving than mine would be. I haven't run tainted variants here before, but I have run into issues with them in other decks, so I think I'd flag it myself. But yeah, with fetches, Prismatic Vista and Fabled Passage and such, you're probably just fine.

[materpillar]

I just played against this deck for the first time yesterday. I just wanted to drop by and say it seems pretty sweet. The list I was playing against was rocking Necromancer's Covenant as a spicy piece of anti-graveyard tech. He was going a little heavier on token support with Anointed Procession.

[toctheyounger]

I just played against this deck for the first time yesterday. I just wanted to drop by and say it seems pretty sweet. The list I was playing against was rocking Necromancer's Covenant as a spicy piece of anti-graveyard tech. He was going a little heavier on token support with Anointed Procession.

Thanks! My build tends to run light on tokens - procession is super expensive and will probably stay that way for ever. I feel like I get by just fine though. The deck has a few zany plays and can close out a game pretty quick, plus its fun to play and play against. That's what matters most of course.

[LEH]

I just played against this deck for the first time yesterday. I just wanted to drop by and say it seems pretty sweet. The list I was playing against was rocking Necromancer's Covenant as a spicy piece of anti-graveyard tech. He was going a little heavier on token support with Anointed Procession.

Thanks! My build tends to run light on tokens - procession is super expensive and will probably stay that way for ever. I feel like I get by just fine though. The deck has a few zany plays and can close out a game pretty quick, plus its fun to play and play against. That's what matters most of course.

Yeah, it's always a good sign when you're building a deck to play for a more fun experience all round and someone takes the time to pop on to say they really enjoyed playing against the deck. Definitely feeling like I've made the right choice choosing Varina.

Is Procession be something you would add to the deck if you had access to it do you think @toctheyounger?

[yeti1069]

It's interesting how yeti1069 and I have conflicting views on the Tainted lands. I've rarely had issues running Tainted Lands and I run them in most of my Black decks. I try to aim for a majority of my manabase to focus on tapping for multiple colours of mana so it's rarely really been a problem for them only tapping for colourless until a Swamp comes down - which is usually pretty early on in the decks where Tainted lands are played anyway. I do agree that in this deck, Tainted lands are worse than most options available unless on a budget where you are likely adding/playing more actual Swamps in the deck. The Flip Lands seem better in the deck than Filter Lands, Thrive Lands and Tainted Lands to me though.

I think it really depends how many fetches you have in the deck. In mine, I'm running 2 or 3, and have had games where it was turns before I had an actual Swamp in play. For filter lands, it's rare to not have either of the colors you need (especially if you cut down on the number of colorless lands in the deck), plus they can help filter colors when you have heavy requirements to cast.

[toctheyounger]

Is Procession be something you would add to the deck if you had access to it do you think @toctheyounger?

In the present iteration, no. I simply don't have the token generation critical mass that would make something like Procession worthwhile. That being said, there's definitely at least two ways you could go for swarm decks with Varina:

Mega-swarm:
Things like Noosegraf Mob, Ghoulcaller Gisa, our beloved Tombstone Stairwell, Grave Titan and just going wide as hell. Procession would do nicely there.

Jank-swarm:
This is something I've tried out before under Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun and it's weird and kinda cool - making tokens of things that generally aren't tokens; or things that are more than vanilla. You're going for stuff like:
Blade of Selves, Helm of the Host, Mimic Vat, Rite of Replication, Clone Legion, Cackling Counterpart and so forth. You'd probably want some overlap with stuff like Noosegraf Mob and Grave Titan anyway. This could be legitimately hilarious, although I think the curve would preclude it from being a truly focused list. Nonetheless, it'd be hella fun - imagine making a whole lot of copies of stuff like Undead Warchief, Death Baron, Corpse Knight or even our commander. Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun kind of jumped the shark on it because unblockable made it more fait accompli than I usually like, but Varina, Lich Queen has just the kind of utility to make it a lot more fun.

I think it really depends how many fetches you have in the deck. In mine, I'm running 2 or 3, and have had games where it was turns before I had an actual Swamp in play. For filter lands, it's rare to not have either of the colors you need (especially if you cut down on the number of colorless lands in the deck), plus they can help filter colors when you have heavy requirements to cast.

Totally agree here. I see no need for them myself, but I am also well used to playing around my colour requirements for intensive colour costs like, say, Supreme Verdict. I've just learned to be careful where I can. I may well look into filter lands down the track once Double Masters prices have settled at their nadir, but I'm pretty alright with how my lands are working right now. It's pretty seldom I have issues with cards logjamming in my hand for lack of colour.

[LEH]

I agree that the Filter lands are fantastic in 2 colour decks. I've had issues with them in decks with 3+ colours though so I don't tend to run them myself - admittedly, I'm probably wrong not to. Generally though, I try to avoid cards with multiple mana symbols in their cost - which is why I don't rate the Filter lands that highly, I guess. Obviously, I don't know this deck that well so the manabase will be adjusted until I'm confidant it's optimised enough to run smoothly - so I may end up adding Filter lands at some point down the line. Currently, I'm confidant it's at a good starting place though.

I should be getting in a few games over the next couple of days - a few friends and I have a "Corona Commander League" set up through Discord and Spelltable. I've been playing a Midrange Meren build for it. Recently, we finished the league games so we're all in deck testing for the next one. I'll probably be running "Sigarda Voltron Enchantress" deck I built up for the event but I plan on a Varina build for the following event - testing now will allow me to personalise up the deck a bit.