Krark and Sakashima: Flipping Orvar with Zada

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Crazy Monkey
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

A friend of mine in my local metagame has started a Discord and built a cEDH Krark+Sakashima deck. This is definitely not that list. This is a deck where I attempt to combine my favorite strategies in Magic; copying stuff (more than necessary), dumb value engines which 'misuse' cards, and less than random RNG elements.

I want to make a mana engine by repeatedly targeting my treasure tokens with Mogg Salvage, or Lost Vale with Geomancer's Gambit while neither original spell resolves. I want to play Goblin Recruiter to set the top as Goblin Matron, Goblin Engineer (for Krark's Thumb) Zada, Hedron Grinder and Orvar, the All-Form so I can Tibalt's Trickery a copy of Pact of Negation and get my engine. I want to make a bunch of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle tokens followed by a lot of Volcanic Island tokens. I want to bend probability until it breaks with too many Krarks and enough thumbs for each.

There is no direct combo with Zada and Orvar, but what this deck intends to capitalize on is that they're both great with the same base of cards: the cheap, targeted cantrip card. Krark and Sakashima (copying Krark) then give each of these cantrips reasonable odds to return to hand and put a copy onto the stack instead. With Zada, it does not matter if Krark returns the original and still get X-1 copies for each other creature. With Orvar it still does not matter and make copies of the target without a spell resolving. With copy spells there can now be copies for each Orvar token.
Decklist

Secondary Commanders

Copying Creatures and Copying Triggers

Approximate Total Cost:

The overall strategy for this deck is to resolve Krark and Sakashima copying Krark. This sets up an engine where 25% of the time, my spell does nothing, 25% of the time it's copied twice for 3x effect, and 50% of the time it's copied and the original returns to hand. This sets up a buyback 0 loop, although one which is not deterministic and relies on chance. This engine is the backbone of the cEDH versions of this deck. From this starting point, the objective is then to increase the odds to the last option there; at least 1 copy and the spell returns to hand. While setting up this engine, there are reasonably high odds that a spell cast simply returns to your hand. For this reason, keeping a very low mana curve is important. Free spells are extremely powerful, because they can be recast until the desired effect occurs.

Adding Zada and Orvar raise the floor of my probability distribution. Even if all coin flips return the spell to hand, their triggers still provide value either in the form of radiated spells or copies of my permanents. Both a dedicated Zada or Orvar list generally wants to capitalize on reusing spells, either with recursion, buyback, or multiple similar effects. Zada runs a critical mass of cantrips, and Orvar uses buyback or Mystic Sanctuary. While This deck can use both of these methods, I've found that this deck simply does not need stand-alone buyback spells while relying on the Krark engine.

Mana production is fairly straightforward. The ritual spells can storm off with the commanders (again, a primary route in the cEDH build), but including permanents which generate mana provides other outlets once Zada or Orvar are in play. Any spell which can target a mana source that costs less than it generates can be an engine. Mogg Salvage on treasure tokens or Arcane Signet is an engine. Twiddle on an island is an engine if a copy of it resolves. Even Geomancer's Gambit on a mountain can be an engine. These mana engines become more efficient if they are preceded by cost reduction. Geomancers Gambit is net mana negative on lands other that Lost Vale, but with Ruby Medallion it has the same effective cost as Expedite. Copy the medallion with Orvar makes it a net cost of zero to draw cards.

Now, a quick aside. This deck plays and copies land destruction spells. This was added as a method to shift surplus red mana to blue mana by copying my islands or nonbasic blue sources, and there are not that may available options which do this, much less while also being a cantrip. I have only included land destruction which at least replaces with a basic to mitigate this frustration.

While the land destruction strategy is typically disliked; even without it the overall concept of this build and the mana curve push the deck into the upper end of most commander power levels. Additionally, Krarkishima can be a time sink with the raw number of actions for each spell. These issues keep this in a higher-powered metagame. From my limited testing, I do not recommend this deck for mid-powered games, despite that being my original target. I highly recommend preparing an programmatic coin flipper to avoid taking excessively long turns.

Some lines of play which have been unexpectedly useful include:
  • Argent Mutation can turn permanents into artifacts so that they can be more cheaply copied with free Mogg Salvage. I was temped to include Siege of Towers for a similar effect, but the application was too limited.
  • Tibalt's Trickery is another method to use red mana to cast blue spells. There is not a shuffle effect, so setting up your library before use trickery on your own spell or spell copy can be extremely potent.
  • Copying Orvar once directly starts a near-doubling loop each time an Orvar is targeted. While copying Zada doesn't do as much because of her triggers restrictions (cast a spell targeting only Zada), the copy effect spells are great to double the entire battlefield. I'd play a monored Fated Infatuation in my dedicated Zada build 100% of the time.
  • Goldspan Dragon does not care how you target it, nor if the spell resolves. Repeated Twinflame copied through Zada will make many dragons to make more treasure and cast more twinflames.
  • Birgi, God of Storytelling can be copied, then returned to hand to cast as Harnfel, Horn of Bounty to have access to both sides of the card.
  • Krark's Thumb and copies of it give you control over how many copies of the spell resolve. With Orvar out and plenty of thumbs, Cleansing Wildfire never actually needs to resolve any copies and still makes the land tokens. This can be a method to continue generating tokens without drawing yourself to death, or if you'd rather not resolve copied land destruction on yourself or your opponents. This can be important for metagame considerations or if the only legal targets aren't desirable.
Cards that I intend to test are:
  • Pyroblast and Hydroblast for any target effects. Again, the original spell need not resolve while making copies with Krarkashima and Orvar.
  • Gut Shot to lean into more free spells. Copying and ritualing off of Priest of Urabrask or Goldspan Dragon is good for a free spell.
  • Imprisoned in the Moon to turn an permanent into land for Geomancer's Gambit removal. Also copy-able with Orvar to waste the entire board. Due to layering, I should be able to put Imprison on my own original permanent cards, then target them to make the base engine immune to board wipes like Cyclonic rift while also making tokens. The new token copies the base state unenchanted so the new copies aren't also lands. Additionally, copying auras avoids all protection other than "protection from", because the aura enters without targeting.
  • Twiddle as a "ritual" that 'can' go net mana positive off either copying Mystic Sanctuary via Orvar or just multiple copies off Krarkashima
  • Cloud of Faeries is likely a better ritual creature than Priest of Urabrask.
  • Aquitect's Will probably needs more testing. I'd cut it because it only cantrips with Orvar, but turning on the free cast of mogg salvage may be worth it.
  • Cavern of Souls would help resolve the engine cards, but being colorless for the spells is a somewhat large drawback here.
I'll be working to add more description here as able, but wanted to get my rough draft up.
Last edited by Crazy Monkey 2 years ago, edited 4 times in total.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Crazy Monkey
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

I've been goldfishing this a lot and feel fairly confident that I can drop a couple of lands for alternative mana sources. Current testing swaps:
Approximate Total Cost:

  • 2 lands → Twiddle and Hidden Strings: Reducing lands to match the density I run in Zada. Both additions function as rituals which can ramp Sakashima out the turn after Krark assuming the flip is won. If mana becomes an issue in testing these will likely stay in and I'll find a different cut.
  • SubmergeGut Shot: While Submerge is free situationally, Gut shot is at most 1 mana or free. This should be a more consistent enabler.
  • Essence FluxHydroblast: More available targets and can still perform the protection role as a counterspell.
  • Fiery GambitPyroblast: Gambit was just too many independent coinflip triggers. It's a card I really enjoy, especially with Zada, but the time it took to resolve and generate mana/cards with a triple success with Krark's thumb felt unnecessary.
    Muddle the MixtureGut Shot: Muddle was a tutor for Krark's Thumb, Goblin Recruiter, Heat Shimmer and more, while also being a counterspell. It's a good card. I want to try reducing tutor options to power the deck down a hair. Mirage is a mana engine that enables Mogg Salvage that also cantrips, adding draw to replace the tutor. I considered Aquitect's Will instead, but the assurance of draw without Orvar is probably worth 1 more in cost, which can later be reduced.
I'd dropped Twiddle and Hidden Strings from my test pile shortly before original posting. I wanted them back. The rest of these are working towards adding more multi-purpose enablers. I'm really starting to prefer more copies of Krark's Thumb so I can control whether I have more copied spells or minimal spells. Also, adding Goblin Electromancer to the maybe pile, swapping out a medallion.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Mirrorwing Dragon is another copy catDragon of Zada.
Precursor Golem isn't quite the same, but trust me gets out of hand very quickly.

Did you know that there are only 16 cards in your deck that Baral, Chief of Compliance realistically helps to reduce the cost?

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Crazy Monkey
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

I was looking at the count of cost reductions as I considered Goblin Electromancer over medallion, and completely missed the point. Thanks for pointing it out. I run enough creatures that doubling down on instant/sorcery cost reduction would help get mana positive on some loops but be less likely to have impact beforehand. That in mind, electromancer is not worth it despite goblin tutoring options. Realistically, I should swap Baral to Helm of Awakening or Mox Amber. Probably the latter of those to help ramp after Krark.

I was strongly considering Precursor Golem at one point, but dropped it when I cut Young Pyromancer, Docent of Perfection // Final Iteration and similar. It grows more rapidly than either of those and is a great army-in-a-can, especially with copy effects. I'm more likely to add Mirrorwing Dragon due to the aforementioned cost reduction being color specific. Additionally, my free spells which could target the golem over the dragon will just destroy all the other golems so having more available spells to radiate isn't exactly ideal here.

On mirrorwing, I think I ran into the same assumption that crops up in a lot of my decks with "lieutenants", assuming I'll find them consistently. I'm likely being over optimistic and should have some redundancy. Honestly, a lot more often the deck can run with Orvar more easily than Zada due to the commanders, but having more radiate shouldn't hurt. I'll add it to my test pile.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Crazy Monkey
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Location: New Mexico, US

Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

So the printing of magecraft is wonderful for this deck, due to the massive amount of spell casting and copying spamming that this deck puts forward. Archmage Emeritus and Storm-Kiln Artist will be testing here I expect them to make the cut.

I'm likely also going to test Prismari Command, as a possible source of draw/discard, mana, and targeting. It's a higher mana cost, but may still be worth it.

Revisiting the testing of precursor golem, with just Zada the extra radiate was less often the backbone of the deck. Combining with magecraft might bring this back into testing. That said, the shear amount of time a turn takes without a radiate effect to reduce the number of required flips means that a likely less consistent, but more playgroup's time friendly version should probably add both precursor golem and Mirrorwing Dragon.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Crazy Monkey
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago


I realized that it's been a bit since I updated this list, especially considering all the magecraft and similar effects printed in the past several months. The magecraft triggers for cards or mana in addition to the triggered ability copies and the random coin flip support have been very good.

I also worked to further power the deck down by dropping the efficient rituals which make storming out easier/more efficient with these triggers. It makes the wins more telegraphed and less likely to suddenly make Veyran or Storm-Kiln artist suddenly lethal. I still think this deck's power level is higher than I want it to be, but it's nearly there.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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Crazy Monkey
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 2 years ago

changelog
Approximate Total Cost:

The important change is Archmage Emeritus --> Stormchaser Drake. The lower MV with effectively minimal downside, while adding the option to simply change targets to avoid decking myself make this effectively have 0 downsides. Technically, there is less possible draw if the target is non-creature, or competing with Goldspan Dragon; but this loss is relatively minor.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



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