Feather the Redeemed - Flicker-Forger Hybrid

victorsaur
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Post by victorsaur » 3 years ago

Purpose

The purpose of this deck is to make a Feather deck that is as competitively viable as possible. This means that it must have quick and consistent answers to Win Cons, which to my knowledge, tend to include commanders.

Introduction

Hello everyone. I am new to this site and to creating primers, so please forgive any beginner mistakes.

I believe that stronger Feather, the Redeemed Commander decks make use of Sunforger and flicker effects. The strength of these effects are as follows:
A) They make use of Boros's limited tutoring capacity by searching for Sunforger with white's equipment tutors. Sunforger can then grab Magnetic Theft to function at instant speed.
B) With ETB creatures, flicker effects translate into both protection and ETB triggers.

In other words, flicker and Sunforger effects allow Boros to play at instant speed without losing card advantage while improving deck consistency via tutors.

One of the issues with using one strategy or the other are that they appear unreliable by themselves. When Sunforger is destroyed, the deck cannot function. And when a torpor orb is not removed or another deck threatens to quickly win in a way that flicker decks are not prepared to react to, the game is also lost.

Thus, I decided to try combining the two strategies in this deck to do the following:
A) improve the versatility of the deck to respond to threats;
B) improve the consistency of the deck's capacity to create threats.

To make this versatility of threat response effective, I believe that all potential responses should be able to consistently target a specific type of threat. Because many decks rely on their commanders to function optimally (or even at all), I made this specific threat-response type creature removal.

That stated, I am still relatively new to commander, and may have thus made errors in my deck's strategy. Here is the deck:

Flicker forger

Commander

Recursion

Approximate Total Cost:

Strategy

Early game
-Ramp and get Feather out quickly with enough mana to cast a protection spell that should be in your hand
-Use shuffling or tutoring effects to attain this condition if necessary

Mid game
-Recognize potential threats and plan for them while setting up your win condition.
-Gather cards to counter counters to your win con or your threat removal.

Late game / win condition
-Ideally, by the time you plan on winning, you will have either Sunforger and Magnetic theft to search for commander damage or opponents will have been dealt enough damage to be finished while you maintain control over other threats.

Additional notes

The most obvious win condition for this deck is commander damage. Statistically, for any two cards there is a 1/6 chance the cards will not interact with each other (Rampage and Strength): Sunforger can tutor for these cards:
- Apostle's Blessing to protect itself
- Magnetic Theft to then re-equip itself at instant speed;
- Pyroblast, which can target Feather to then return to your hand;

Recruiter of the Guard can tutor for these cards that can protect feather: I am considering using the following cards in this deck:
Seht's Tiger
Orim's Thunder

Please let me know what you think.

History of edits

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Last edited by victorsaur 3 years ago, edited 3 times in total.

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Hi, welcome to the forums. I also have a Feather deck that focuses on flicker effects and has a strong focus on Sunforger antics. You can check it out here => viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15573&p=33756#p33756

I'll give you some quick suggestions.
Axgard Armory for getting Sunforger.
With Sunforger it is always good to have a tool box for a given situation.
Path to Exile for creature removal. With Feather you can use it on your own creatures for land ramp. Do it in response to opponents removal to get value type thing.
Tibalt's Trickery as a counter spell.

As far as removal I find Duergar Hedge-Mage and Skyclave Apparition as premium flicker targets.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Hello, welcome. Always nice to see more Feather action, I can't believe that she's drifted out of the collective consciousness already. Well, I guess I can, given perpetual hype and Feather's linearity. But decals can be applied however one sees fit - my primer runs ETB as a subtheme, focusing more on spamming cheap casts and setting up explosive turns.

Here's some food for thought:
  • There's a certain core that tends to be shared between different Feather builds. There's a set of seven one-drop cantrips which are pretty much as auto-include as you can get. Both Darren and me run all of them, despite the differences in our builds. I'd argue that Monastery Mentor and Young Pyromancer fall into a similar level of ubiquity, as they gum up the ground and buy you time to do whatever you need. You can then combine said gum with a Zada variant to go nuts with the repeatable spells. You're already running Fists of Flame, which caps off that setup with an explosive win. I dub it the "Zada Hoof" in my primer, and it's my most common victory condition.
  • Your deck seems to have a weird fixation on operating at sorcery speed (Grand Abolisher, Sentinel Tower). One of Feather's strengths is how far she can stretch a puny Heal, potentially nabbing as many cards as there are players at the table if you have the mana for it.
  • The list touches on a number of ideas, but doesn't execute any of them particularly deeply. You're running the full suite of the flicker instants, yet you have as many ETBs in the deck as I have in mine, despite the fact it's just a subtheme of mine rather than a focus. Darren has quite a bit more, and more impactful stuff too. You've got a couple of voltron instants, but not enough to put them together reliably to make Feather threatening consistently. You mention in your post that you're concerned with being locked out of the game, but I feel you'd get better performance if you just zoomed in on one of the aspects you're trying to pursue. Just run some removal to give you interaction powers. The seven cantrips will hopefully grant you a decent level of dig and you'll feel more secure going for it.
  • Sunforger is decent, I run it myself, but it's not exactly a "the deck needs this in play or it's game over!" card in Feather. It's a nice boon, but it costs eight freaking mana to get the first spell out of it, and it's likely going to be a 1-2 CMC utility thing that will enter circulation. The voltron line is nicely pampered, but don't forget that Sunforger itself grants +4/+0. So tickling someone once with just the Sunforger and then pulling out a Psychotic Fury will do the trick, conserving mana for other more efficient uses. Anyway, Sunforger's more of a backup, a silver bullet sitting on the field and keeping your foes in check, but the deck will work perfectly fine without it on the pitch. There's a high degree of redundancy in the engine piece instants, you're very likely to have found something by the time you can afford to activate this. I'm actually considering cutting Sunforger from my list :P
Have you had the chance to play this, out of curiosity?
 
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Post by victorsaur » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
3 years ago
Hi, welcome to the forums. I also have a Feather deck that focuses on flicker effects and has a strong focus on Sunforger antics. You can check it out here => viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15573&p=33756#p33756

I'll give you some quick suggestions.
Axgard Armory for getting Sunforger.
With Sunforger it is always good to have a tool box for a given situation.
Path to Exile for creature removal. With Feather you can use it on your own creatures for land ramp. Do it in response to opponents removal to get value type thing.
Tibalt's Trickery as a counter spell.

As far as removal I find Duergar Hedge-Mage and Skyclave Apparition as premium flicker targets.
Hello! I will definitely look at and comment on your deck. It's always nice to discuss strategy with a fellow Feather fan!

Thank you for the advice—I think Axgard Armory and Tibalt's Trickery are definite inclusions! I must say that I am not entirely sure about Path to Exile or Duergar Hedge-Mage yet, although those are also very strong cards that I will consider. Perhaps Path to Exile should replace Swords to Plowshares? I will have to think about the Hedge-Mage.

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Post by victorsaur » 3 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
3 years ago
Hello, welcome. Always nice to see more Feather action, I can't believe that she's drifted out of the collective consciousness already. Well, I guess I can, given perpetual hype and Feather's linearity. But decals can be applied however one sees fit - my primer runs ETB as a subtheme, focusing more on spamming cheap casts and setting up explosive turns.

Here's some food for thought:
  • There's a certain core that tends to be shared between different Feather builds. There's a set of seven one-drop cantrips which are pretty much as auto-include as you can get. Both Darren and me run all of them, despite the differences in our builds. I'd argue that Monastery Mentor and Young Pyromancer fall into a similar level of ubiquity, as they gum up the ground and buy you time to do whatever you need. You can then combine said gum with a Zada variant to go nuts with the repeatable spells. You're already running Fists of Flame, which caps off that setup with an explosive win. I dub it the "Zada Hoof" in my primer, and it's my most common victory condition.
  • Your deck seems to have a weird fixation on operating at sorcery speed (Grand Abolisher, Sentinel Tower). One of Feather's strengths is how far she can stretch a puny Heal, potentially nabbing as many cards as there are players at the table if you have the mana for it.
  • The list touches on a number of ideas, but doesn't execute any of them particularly deeply. You're running the full suite of the flicker instants, yet you have as many ETBs in the deck as I have in mine, despite the fact it's just a subtheme of mine rather than a focus. Darren has quite a bit more, and more impactful stuff too. You've got a couple of voltron instants, but not enough to put them together reliably to make Feather threatening consistently. You mention in your post that you're concerned with being locked out of the game, but I feel you'd get better performance if you just zoomed in on one of the aspects you're trying to pursue. Just run some removal to give you interaction powers. The seven cantrips will hopefully grant you a decent level of dig and you'll feel more secure going for it.
  • Sunforger is decent, I run it myself, but it's not exactly a "the deck needs this in play or it's game over!" card in Feather. It's a nice boon, but it costs eight freaking mana to get the first spell out of it, and it's likely going to be a 1-2 CMC utility thing that will enter circulation. The voltron line is nicely pampered, but don't forget that Sunforger itself grants +4/+0. So tickling someone once with just the Sunforger and then pulling out a Psychotic Fury will do the trick, conserving mana for other more efficient uses. Anyway, Sunforger's more of a backup, a silver bullet sitting on the field and keeping your foes in check, but the deck will work perfectly fine without it on the pitch. There's a high degree of redundancy in the engine piece instants, you're very likely to have found something by the time you can afford to activate this. I'm actually considering cutting Sunforger from my list :P
Have you had the chance to play this, out of curiosity?
Greetings! I have not yet tested this deck—I decided to put the idea here for feedback. I did take a peek at your primer and have tried a similar strategy with my Feather deck in the past. Against stronger decks I believe that even though cards like Mentor are very strong, a strategy based around cards like them may just be too slow and inflexible to be competitive.

A friend of mind just suggested I take out the tower too. It's too slow. By the time you read this, I will probably have updated my deck list.

I agree that cantrips are especially powerful. And you are probably correct that Grand Abolisher is too slow. One reason I have the number of cantrips that I do (the three listed plus Psychotic Fury and Shelter) is that in play-testing my deck online, I found that replacing some cantrips with other cards that shuffle cards (Mask of Memory etc.) helped to smooth out the beginning game (I am running only 33 lands). It might be a good idea to include at least one more cantrip. The only concern I have is that when you hold a cantrip in your hand, drawing another cantrip is usually not beneficial. Of course, my deck idea is still in its beginning stage and I will consider adding more given how powerful cantrips are.

I also found in testing online that although I have 9 flickering instants, they are not reliable to draw. This is why I do not have a huge amount of ETB-effect creatures—my deck is seeking to maximize its consistency.

Thank you for all of your feedback. I will have to consider it in more detail.

Edit: You have a compelling case for cantrips. What cards look good to cut? I am considering Dreadhorde Arcanist and Fell the Mighty.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

You seem like you're a keen analyst, and you have a particular goal in mind for the deck. In that case, I'm going to cut straight to the chase - the way to make Feather the strongest she can be is to run a lot of hate pieces and 1CMC protection/draw spells. This doesn't leave a lot of areas for folks to disrupt you in, and you're prepared to fight there to protect your stuff. There are some lists pursuing some take on this idea online, including the famous Braden one, but I feel like I'm not equipped to understand what in tarnation they're doing in terms of meta interaction as a non-cEDH player. Not Forgotten, a two mana sorcery to stuff one card in a graveyard? What's up with that?

Anyway, in terms of power, you've got hate piece plus protection Feather. Then you've got cast spam Feather. Then you've got happy blink time Feather with Justiciar's Portal. I'm not sure how to position voltron Feather in this ranking, as it may be faster than blink but feels less robust. The truth is most Feathers will be some mix of all of these archetypes, as each has a finite card pool that's actually worth running. For example, you don't seem particularly interested in cast spam, yet you're jamming Burning Prophet. There's a reason why you don't see a lot of flicker in those competitive attempts, and that reason is pure mana efficiency. The Braden list runs Dockside Extortionist and the Recruiters, and that's it. Its lone flicker spell is Cloudshift, because it costs one mana and protects stuff. There's no Ephemerate, but I'm willing to pin that on the fact the link was a barely edited repost of a 2019 list made just after Feather came out. The write-up still discusses Paradox Engine lines, in 2020. The reposter did not see it fit to edit that part out.

With that in mind, mana efficiency is the name of the game when trying to look for cuts. You've got a good degree of redundancy in your engine pieces, your cantrips (soon!), your flickers, your other protection. You're likely to have some amount of that stuff available, and multiples are not bad. Cantrips in particular - smart opponents will challenge you over the cantrips with removal. This opens up a whole different dimension of where to aim the cantrips, which is good fun unless your opposition has become conditioned to just not waste their removal on you. With that in mind, I'd go after a lot of your "what if" pieces and just focus on your primary engine. This sort of stuff feels too conditional in a blink shell already.
  • You don't have a lot of targets for Idyllic Tutor, and it will cost you a lot of mana to play and follow up with what you get. Compare that to using those resources for one-mana repeatable instants. Compare that to setting down Monastery Mentor or Young Pyromancer and spending the change on one-mana repeatable instants.
  • What sort of stuff do you expect to steal with Dire Fleet Daredevil? You still have to pay the mana cost, mind you, so even doing a cheeky stack war flicker to nab a counterspell is going to be mana intensive.
  • Compare Crystal Ball to using the mana on one-drop instants, or... you get the idea :P
  • Once you get your cantrip apparatus online, you're going to be swimming in cards in hand, and by extension lands in hand. You don't run any powerhouse lands. Weathered Wayfarer is not going to do much for you outside the earliest of games, especially since he's likely to be summoning sick. I love the Wayfarer, he's a hyper bomb in my Daxos deck, but Feather is not the place for him.
  • I've found Sword of Rampant Growth too slow in my deck, and have had better luck with Dowsing Dagger due to Feather's flying.
  • Dreadhorde Arcanist is a very "what if" card - what if I have a spell in the graveyard I want to pick up and put into rotation again? Going deep on draw largely obsoletes that need, as you can just focus on your primary engine and avoid situational cards that only really do something if things go wrong. That said, you shouldn't just cut him immediately. I tend to avoid running backup plans as they don't do anything when the main plan comes online, it might be nice to have that power. Keep an eye on him in testing.
  • You are never going to recruit for Shepherd of the Flock. Ever. That's the most mana inefficient line you can do in the deck.
  • While I can respect wanting to run the repeatable removal, Stingscourger just seems bad. You're forced to re-flicker it or be faced with a 4-mana echo. And its fail case is a two-mana sorcery speed Unsummon.
  • I've never been a fan of fastlands in EDH. Feather is a very mana hungry deck, and happily guzzles any amount of resources you can throw at her. This thing turning into a guildgate turn four is not where you want to be.
It's fine to not be the most competitive version of a deck. The beauty of the format is you can play anything from top end cEDH to some garbage tier theme deck, and that's all fine. If you want to play flicker/Sunforger-heavy Feather, you can. You probably won't have game at cEDH tables with it, but you can play it somewhere.
 
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Post by victorsaur » 3 years ago

Thank you Rumpy5897 for the informative post. The goal of this deck is to make it as strong as it can be against competitive decks such as Zur, Urza, or The First Sliver, so I appreciate you delivering your ideas hard and straight. I have read Braden's deck idea and philosophy. The concern that I encountered with this deck is that in play-testing, it seems to heavily rely on the good will of one's table mates and lacks a consistent threat of recurring advantage. Also, when an opponent removes Sunforger, the game is all but over. This is why I considered that flickering effects might be able to combine with Sunforger to both allow for recurring threats and to reliably protect Feather. Braden's deck unreliably protects Feather, meaning that while the deck can provide many answers, it can even more easily be answered, which seems to me makes it simply all-around weaker than strong decks that have the mentioned commanders. Even if Feather is simply worse than top decks, I would like to see if it is possible to give Feather a unique advantage.

The critical test for this deck is then to test if it is possible to maximize the value of flickering effects to reliably react to threats and to also establish threats. If this is not the case, then the deck idea will not improve on previous ideas.

I recently decided that as you suggest, Crystal Ball is too slow / unreliable and needs to be cut. I also think, as you have mentioned, that Stingscourger is too unreliable. All of your cut suggestions are logical and will be reflected in the next update of this deck idea. The only 'what if' question among these cuts is for Direfleet Daredevil: This card's intended purpose early game is to cast another deck's tutor for an answer because I believe that Feather's most effective strategy, as you have mentioned, is to be defensive. Flickering the Daredevil is just a possible plus. Of course, that could equate to three or four mana for a tutor, which could be just too slow against stronger decks. Perhaps Reverberate could replace this card.

This leads to my next thought for updating this deck idea: speed. Feather needs to be fast to compete. I'm definitely going to add Mox Amber and Arcane Signet. Perhaps I should also add Knight of the White Orchid for ramp / flicker or even Gold Myr for more ramp.

As you have mentioned, efficiency is another important focus. Perhaps Mangara of Corondor should be cut because it does not work at instant speed.

As for hate pieces, this is where the fun of creating this deck probably is. I believe that beyond removing commanders, controlling their ability to attack, tap, or use activated abilities might answer them. What do you think of these cards?

Instant speed: Not instant speed: I am considering Arena because I might be able to flicker Feather.

How would I respond to storm decks or those with The First Sliver as a commander? (If possible). I know that The First Sliver's cascade effect does not initiate for other slivers until the second cast, so perhaps reliable removal effects could work here. I will also consider other ramp cards like Smothering Tithe and Treasonous Ogre.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Notice the Braden take calls itself predatory. That's what any cEDH'y take on Feather will be - it needs to figure out the meta and abuse it. You're not nimble enough to dictate your own terms, you need to figure out which of your opposition's plans you get to wrench without disrupting your own gameplay too much.

I don't think cEDH tends to be overly commander reliant on the whole. As such, you should go for broader angles of attack. Drannith Magistrate might be of use to you, as it seems like it would also interact with things like Bolas's Citadel and not just commanders. You've got some good hate pieces there with Cursed Totem, Aven Mindcensor is another good one. You can totally up the protection count - there are tons of viable one-drop spells, colour protection, indestructibility. Efficiency is important, and paying one mana rather than two for a spell of that nature is going to pay dividends. Red Elemental Blast may lack the idle bounce of Pyroblast, but blue's a given. If you're pursuing that route for real, I'd shave the flicker to Cloudshift/Ephemerate as they cost one, and your ETBs to Dockside Extortionist... and maybe Skyclave Apparition? I don't know, paying three mana for it seems like a lot. My lack of cEDH experience is showing.

I still fully expect you to cut Sunforger sooner rather than later if you go down that route. In a deck with ample redundant engine piece instants, paying eight mana for the first activation is just way too much. It's already on the line in mine, and I've got cute tech that I can grab (like Intimidation Bolt) that you don't. And you're aiming for higher power. Get some games in, see how it fares.

Once you converge a bit more on your idea, might be worth getting this thread mod-moved to the competitive subforum to get more appropriate eyes on it?
 
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Sunforger is just too damn slow for CEDH - take Rumpy's deck, cut all the equipment and slower stuff like Aetherflux Reservoir , add more interaction, and add the Dualcaster Mage combo, and you have a decent deck that will win games (add Twinflame and Heat Shimmer, which are fairly decent with the rest of your deck anyway).

Unfortunately busted artifact ramp is the only prayer you have of winning games in CEDH with Feather, so that's really going to be the limiter.

Hatebears are pretty good in CEDH, but the ones I would run are Hushbringer, Aven Mindcensor, Linvala, Keeper of Silence and Drannith Magistrate.

One nice thing about CEDH is you can mostly just win games with Reckless Rage and and Feather, the Redeemed a high percentage of the time.

The main rule is sequencing: *Never* leave Feather unprotected.

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Post by victorsaur » 3 years ago

Thank you both for the feedback. I accept that until I drop more money than I'd like to spend on artifact ramp, this deck will not be *truly* competitive. Perhaps I can create a truly competitive and a budget competitive deck list.

There are many good ideas here. I originally had the same reaction to Sunforger: this card is just too slow!

@Rumpy5897
I agree that Feather will not be able to dictate her own terms. I suppose that my aspiration is to create a deck that can reliably make a board presence (I consider creature-targeting effects in my hand as part of my board) that can reliably respond to most terms while I slowly build an advantage.

As for indestructibility, I intend to include Fight as One.

There is a lot to consider here. With pokken's suggestions of DualCaster Mage combo cards, perhaps I could cut the flickers to have a maximum cost of two mana, thus totaling 4 cards, which would might allow me to keep some stronger flicker effects.

@pokken
I am of the same mind that Reckless Rage should be able to win games (this is probably also true for Fall of the Hammer?). This is a big reason why I included Flametongue Kavu and Skyclave Apparition to work with flicker effects.

I am curious to hear why you would play Linvala, Keeper of Silence but not Cursed Totem and you list Hushbringer, but not Hushwing Gryff. I have no questions about the rest of your suggestions.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Linvala, Keeper of Silence responds to the bulk of the protection spells that keep Feather around. Totem less so. But I don't think it's dismissed, just that Pokken was listing hatebears specifically. Hushbringer stops two different classes of effect. Not sure how relevant that is from a cEDH perspective, but it's a thing.
 
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Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

As another Feather player who has a history of over-using Sunforger, I agree with previous commenters that some of Feather's most powerful engines are simply reusing removal and cantrips for significant advantage. The cantrips are fairly straightforward CA (especially with Zada, Hedron Grinder), but interaction at the cEDH level has been difficult in my experience.

Reckless Rage is the most efficient, but I also use cost reduction effects to reuse Heliod's Intervention, Divergent Transformations, and Orim's Thunder. None of these are efficient enough to hold up multiple times through a turn cycle unless you have 6 opponents for Transformations (extremely rare). Fall of the Hammer and Soul's Fire may be efficient enough.

I would expect that proactive hatebears with a robust protection suite should be a strong method to force the game to Feather's pace.

While Sunforger is a strong, repeatable method to assemble wincons and interaction (I use Martyrdom + Arcbond); the up front cost is likely prohibitive at fast, interactive metagames. My Marath build is extremely 'Forger centric, and unless the table is unaware or it's well timed/protected then the 6CMC up front cost gets shut down with well-timed removal. On that topic, I've dropped Magnetic Theft over time from all my builds, even Feather, because it was either dead too often or was never an optimal choice compared to Puresteel Paladin or other methods to re-equip for cheap.

My local metagame was around the powerlevel of my Feather build being kill on sight when I first built it, but as more players started playing much closer to full cEDH builds, my Feather struggled to keep up. Note that I do have some significant limitations imposed for theme reasons. Based on that experience I would expect flicker+hatebears+cantrips to be the most effective full cEDH method.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Hushbringer stops both Protean Hulk and Thassa's Oracle which are both still pretty critical components of the metagame.

(and closer to 8/10 power level, Hushbringer destroys basically everything, Eternal Witness loops, Palinchron, you name it)

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Right, Protean Hulk still exists post-Flash. That's the missing link in my reasoning.

Also, if you want to get some experience with the deck in various configurations, hit up Cockatrice. But please don't be that guy and wait for cEDH rooms to go up, don't terrorise unwitting randoms :P
 
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