Orvar, the All-Form - Copying Permanents with Card Draw

[BeneTleilax]

Finally got my list in a good place. I decided to focus a bit more on spamming lords, and less on loops.

Orvar, Strange Fish

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Creatures (18)

1 Faerie Miscreant

1 Augur of Bolas

1 Lord of Atlantis

1 Lord of the Unreal

1 Master of the Pearl Trident

1 Supreme Phantom

1 Watcher for Tomorrow

1 Master of Etherium

1 Archaeomancer

1 Glen Elendra Archmage

1 Master of Waves

1 Sakashima of a Thousand Faces

1 Solemn Simulacrum

1 Spark Double

1 Mulldrifter

1 Precursor Golem

1 Shipwreck Dowser

1 Enigma Thief

Artifacts (4)

1 Sol Ring

1 Sapphire Medallion

1 Thought Vessel

1 Helm of the Host

Instants (31)

1 Abjure

1 Artificial Evolution

1 Cerulean Wisps

1 Chilling Trap

1 Dive Down

1 Fleeting Distraction

1 Leap

1 Mizzium Skin

1 Shadow Rift

1 Stream of Unconsciousness

1 Swan Song

1 Thermal Flux

1 Twisted Image

1 Whim of Volrath

1 Counterspell

1 Enervate

1 Glamerdye

1 Glint

1 Jinx

1 Quickchange

1 Refocus

1 Shimmering Mirage

1 Sway of Illusion

1 Updraft

1 Fierce Guardianship

1 Ghostly Flicker

1 Infuse

1 Jolt

1 Twitch

1 Cryptic Command

1 Mystic Confluence

Sorceries (4)

1 Aquitect's Will

1 Cloak of Feathers

1 Trait Doctoring

1 Hidden Strings

Land (32)

1 Cloudpost

1 Command Beacon

1 Flooded Strand

1 Halimar Depths

1 High Market

1 Homeward Path

1 Lonely Sandbar

1 Mystic Sanctuary

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Path of Ancestry

1 Polluted Delta

21 Snow-Covered Island

Approximate Total Cost:

[darrenhabib]

Damn it, you're fast with these well though out deck ideas for new commanders. 😳

Some ideas I had, that I haven't seen (discussed) here so far:
I'd be really interested to read your thoughts on these.

Energy Tap - Colorless mana isn't at its best in this deck but it should really be tested as it is a unique ability.

Primal Amulet // Primal Wellspring - I did a spell count for Baral, Chief of Compliance and it actually was only 19 instant or sorcery that benefit from colorless cost reduction so I ended cutting Baral.
The other thing is that copying won't trigger Orvar because it's not being "cast".

Trail of Evidence - I'd play Teferi's Ageless Insight first, but honestly need to play the deck to see how ridiculous the land ramp can be because I could see wanting a few "big" mana sinks in the deck.

Vedalken Shackles - I don't play many mono-Blue decks so this card is never on my radar. But yeah it's super powerful card and actually you could steal an opponents Commander and then copy it with a targeting spell. The legendary rule can allow you to send their Commander back to the Command Zone and you still get to keep a copy of their card in play. This just means that Vedalken Shackles is then be able to be used again and not give back a creature.
Plus as you mention it gives you access to opponents creatures for copying. I think I should find room as it has a few levels to enhance what the deck does.

Teferi's Time Twist - Well now that I think about it I have Dive Down and Mizzium Skin for protection and copying but I'd say that exile is technically better because you can get additional ETB triggers potentially.
Essence Flux can replace Dive Down. However I'm not too sure if I should replace Mizzium Skin with Teferi's Time Twist because of the mana difference. Teferi's Time Twist does allow you to play around board sweepers better.

Naru Meha, Master Wizard - I actually cut Ghostly Flicker.

Azami, Lady of Scrolls - Was something I thought about. As I mentioned before I'll see how games play out with mana versus cards to cast, because if you can just make 15 lands by turn 6 some games then you are going to want a lot of cards in hand. Azami could easily fill that role.

[darrenhabib]

Finally got my list in a good place. I decided to focus a bit more on spamming lords, and less on loops.

Shipwreck Dowser is a card I didn't know existed and is actual a decent body with the prowess. Going to have to find room for it, even if I'm just playing it over the Archaeomancer.

[narglfrob]

Some more spice I'm testing:
Mystic Subdual and Imprisoned in the Moon as removal that can be copied with Orvar.

Here's my list.

[Crazy Monkey]

Does repeated casting sorcery(s) from opponents graveyard at instant speed make Chancellor of the Spires worthy here? It can't go infinite off a spell that targets due to stack sequencing, but it can be a blowout situationally. On the topic of sphinx, Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign is massive card advantage as you clone it, and triggers on your commander. Last sphinx related comment is that Scholar of the Lost Trove can recur mana doublers such as Caged Sun for future copying, performing a similar role to High Tide.

I personally find Magical Hack-type effects such as Insight a fun effect, and being able to hit the entire color pie with copies sounds funny to me, I might build that. EDIT: having checked my current color-text changing list, Tidal Control is oppressive in a deck that is mono color, can copy it and change color text, and can remove age counters via Clockspinning.

[darrenhabib]

Some more spice I'm testing:
Mystic Subdual and Imprisoned in the Moon as removal that can be copied with Orvar.

Here's my list.

Oh yeah that is a good idea having some sliver bullets in the deck like that. I'll find a slot for Imprisoned in the Moon.

[darrenhabib]

Does repeated casting sorcery(s) from opponents graveyard at instant speed make Chancellor of the Spires worthy here? It can't go infinite off a spell that targets due to stack sequencing, but it can be a blowout situationally. On the topic of sphinx, Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign is massive card advantage as you clone it, and triggers on your commander. Last sphinx related comment is that Scholar of the Lost Trove can recur mana doublers such as Caged Sun for future copying, performing a similar role to High Tide.

I personally find Magical Hack-type effects such as Insight a fun effect, and being able to hit the entire color pie with copies sounds funny to me, I might build that.

With Chancellor of the Spires if opponents have two creature targeting cards then that should be infinite and in a long game that is quite likely to happen. Let's face it if you are casting it for 7 mana then probably by that stage of the game there is a Demonic Tutor type card that somebody has cast and you should be able to set yourself up.

Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign does make Orvar, the All-Form cost 2 less which in some bizarre universe might happen.

I'm really trying to keep my top end down and make it more medium value but cost effective.

If a person wanted to build a deck that has more top end like Agent of Treachery, Scholar of the Ages, Chancellor of the Spires, Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign then I'd look at adding Arcane Artisan as a way to copy those tokens and you won't have to sacrifice the new ones if Arcane Artisan is removed.
Can you think of any other cards that allow you to cheat in cards for copying?

---

I've decided to add Faerie Artisans because it is one of my favorite Commander cards of all time and it's really good in this deck.
Because you get to create tokens of your opponents you can actually decided to use one of your targeting instants to create a copy so that you have a version of it for future copying and it won't be effected by Faerie Artisans.
Plus I promised you if you make copies of Faerie Artisans itself it will cause havok.

[Crazy Monkey]

With Chancellor of the Spires if opponents have two creature targeting cards then that should be infinite and in a long game that is quite likely to happen. Let's face it if you are casting it for 7 mana then probably by that stage of the game there is a Demonic Tutor type card that somebody has cast and you should be able to set yourself up.

Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign does make Orvar, the All-Form cost 2 less which in some bizarre universe might happen.

I'm really trying to keep my top end down and make it more medium value but cost effective.

If a person wanted to build a deck that has more top end like Agent of Treachery, Scholar of the Ages, Chancellor of the Spires, Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign then I'd look at adding Arcane Artisan as a way to copy those tokens and you won't have to sacrifice the new ones if Arcane Artisan is removed.
Can you think of any other cards that allow you to cheat in cards for copying?

---

I've decided to add Faerie Artisans because it is one of my favorite Commander cards of all time and it's really good in this deck.
Because you get to create tokens of your opponents you can actually decided to use one of your targeting instants to create a copy so that you have a version of it for future copying and it won't be effected by Faerie Artisans.
Plus I promised you if you make copies of Faerie Artisans itself it will cause havok.

I still don't think that two spells could be cycled for chancellor, because the copy effect triggers on cast and chancellor directly casts that spell out of the graveyard. I think that each time you trigger it manually, you could make chancellor copies equal to the number of spells that target from among your opponent's graveyards. However, eventually the stack is alternating between all those spells and chancellor triggers on top. It could maybe go infinite if there were a counterspell, which also targets a creature, in a graveyard. Something like Cryptic Command to counter a spell already on the stack from a previous chancellor. Note that this requires the C Command to be in your opponent's graveyard. You can still very quickly amass a swarm of flying 5/7s.

In hindsight, your curve is low and suggesting 5-7CMC cards doesn't quite fit. That said, cheating high costs into play first made me think of Cryptic Gateway (changling/untap synergies) or making many copies of Sapphire Medallion. Beyond enabling infinite lands via buyback, paying at most uu for almost anything in the deck is...nice (speaking from experience via 2+ Unesh in sphinx tribal),

I suppose you could use Artificial Evolution on Unesh with Sakashima of a Thousand Faces out in order to just make tracking costs a mess. Finally, there is of course Polymorphing tokens, which I've been thinking about for a different, terrible deck idea involving Krark and Sakashima to find Orvar and Zada.

[BeneTleilax]

How does Orvar work with Artisan of Forms? That might be a cheap way to get copies of opponents' stuff.

[darrenhabib]

How does Orvar work with Artisan of Forms? That might be a cheap way to get copies of opponents' stuff.

I'm assuming you can order the cast triggers so you can make sure the Heroic resolves first so that you get a copy of desired creature. But I'm no rules expert.

[Cool_Doggo]

The list looks really solid, but I would want to find a slot for Wavebreak Hippocamp since so many of our targeted spells are instants.

[Husforbi]

Hi man, cool deck (as always)

For a complete n00b, can someone explain the rulings behind:

"Gilded Drake can be copied while the trigger is on the stack so you can look to steal multiple creatures depending on how many targeting spells you have and how much mana you have available."

How does this work?

Kind regards

[darrenhabib]

The list looks really solid, but I would want to find a slot for Wavebreak Hippocamp since so many of our targeted spells are instants.

If I find I need more card draw then I have Teferi's Ageless Insight, Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Wavebreak Hippocamp as my top 3 picks.

[darrenhabib]

Hi man, cool deck (as always)

For a complete n00b, can someone explain the rulings behind:

"Gilded Drake can be copied while the trigger is on the stack so you can look to steal multiple creatures depending on how many targeting spells you have and how much mana you have available."

How does this work?

Kind regards

Hi, thanks.
Gilded Drake ability is an enter the battlefield trigger so that goes on the stack. This just means that there is a window where you are still in control of the Drake. While you are still in control of the Gilded Drake you can target it with your spells to make further copies of it with Orvar ability. Once the Drakes are exchanged then you don't have control of them any more and won't be able to copy it in the future.
Does that make sense?

[umtiger]

Tidespout Tyrant Agent of Treachery: Courtesy of Commanders Quarters, these are a good fit for the deck. Once Ovar is online is very easy to get 7+ mana, and these cards, once cloned, end the game FAST!

Tidespout Tyrant is indeed juicy end game. It's my favorite creature.

But most of the time, it just ends up being infinite mana loops with rocks.

I would have to forego all the best mana rocks before playing Tidespout which I do in my Momir wizard deck. I don't know about dropping the rocks from this kind of deck.

[darrenhabib]

Alright reporting back after actually playing the deck. Surprise surprise it's busted.

The thing I underestimated a bit was the buyback cards in Whim of Volrath, Clockspinning, Mind Games and how easy it is to go ham with them.
High Tide has been the catalyst for winning easily.
With copying Mystic Sanctuary you can keep manipulating your draws and I'll try and stack up a few High Tide in the same turn and..well you just go off.
If you have Spellseeker then it is almost certainly game if opponents don't interact with you because you can search for High Tide and then with another copy spell just start making copies of Spellseeker getting cantrips.

I've added Baral, Chief of Compliance as cost reduction and this is because the buyback cards are so good at getting value or going infinite.

The first few games I did feel like a was spinning the wheels a little bit even though I was doing basically a couple of "Cultivate" each turn. Don't get me wrong it's not horrible getting to do this every turn, but I couldn't help feel I wanted more value.
So yeah it makes total sense to add in additional draw/triggers to make the deck stronger. Added Wavebreak Hippocamp and Teferi's Ageless Insight for the additional card draw.

Now technically speaking the ways to copy Orvar with Sakashima the Impostor, Sakashima of a Thousand Faces, Spark Double are better than Wavebreak Hippocamp and Teferi's Ageless Insight as you double up on triggers meaning you get 2x land ramp/creature copy and 2x draw (if cantrip spell).
Plus it has the major advantage of being able to protect each other by targeting to make copies of each other. And of course with Sakashima of a Thousand Faces or Spark Double you can just keep making more copies so flood the table with copying them and you get an exponential flow of them going.
So yeah it's a no-brainer.

Games haven't lasted long enough for me to combo with Torrential Gearhulk or Scholar of the Lost Trove yet. If I'm being honest these are more my own personal "fun" addition to the build. As I say I just find myself comboing with High Tide and buyback cards so far.
I could see a cEDH version that is just going to run more counterspells over my flavor cards.

Insight has actually been really good. As I thought most games have at least one green player so it normally gets some value. And if you really lacking card draw then copying it with color changes is something that you can do.

I added Sensei's Divining Top because I've had Trinket Mage and really wanted a non mana producing target. In a pinch you can make copies of Sensei's Divining Top to represent an additional draw.

I did have one game where I had about 15 x Precursor Golem..Golems on Turn 5. It's a very busted interaction in this deck

Merchant Scroll is a nod to High Tide and you can also get buyback spells to go off as well.
I've "replaced" Jinx out of the list simply because you can't actually buy it on Magic Online as it is not available. So I would play it but can't.

Add

• Baral, Chief of Compliance
• Wavebreak Hippocamp
• Teferi's Ageless Insight
• Sakashima the Impostor
• Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
• Spark Double
• Merchant Scroll
• Sensei's Divining Top
• Prismatic Vista

Remove

• Faerie Artisans
• Elite Arcanist
• Refocus
• Hydroblast
• Silundi Vision
• Path of Ancestry
• Hidden Strings
• Jinx
• Island

[darrenhabib]

I just played a game where I copied Sapphire Medallion with Clockspinning twice to then allow me to make infinite lands.
Each time you make Sapphire Medallion it costs one less on the buyback. Initially it costs 2u then 1u and now you have 3 x Sapphire Medallion which allows you to go infinite. So you only need 6 mana initially to combo off, which is pretty easy in this deck.

This is obviously pretty busted, so if you wanted to go more centric around this idea with buyback cards then here is a list of cost reduction I could find;
Helm of Awakening, Jace's Sanctum, Mana Matrix, Memory Crystal, Naiad of Hidden Coves, Primal Amulet, Stone Calendar, The Immortal Sun, Will Kenrith, Arcane Melee.
Let me know if there are others.

Jace's Sanctum has the advantage that once you can go infinite with lands/mana you can use the infinite scry to find game winning cards.

Will Kenrith can be targeted Whim of Volrath and Clockspinning but not Mind Games.
However with the timing of creating the copy before the spell resolves means that the buyback will fizzle if you keep the newer version.
If you have Sakashima of a Thousand Faces or Spark Double then you can make infinite copies of Will Kenrith which has some flex appeal.

Primal Amulet seems like a great upside with getting infinite Primal Wellspring lands into play as well. However infinite mana to an already infinite doesn't add any value with mana itself. It is the copy ability that you are going to lean on to draw you additional cards if requiring ways to finish the game.
Actually say you have a Twitch in hand. With a lot of Primal Wellspring in play you want to tap 3 x Primal Wellspring so that you can copy the spell 3 times. Therefore you don't want any cost reduction at that stage as you want to tap as many Primal Wellspring as possible to cast the spell.
That is why eventually you want to flip all the Primal Amulet if wanting to dig for more action and spells that cost more than one.

[umtiger]

Once you draw your deck with Will Kenrith, don't you have enough protection to then deck all your opponents?

A general has got to be busted when you start to consider playing Memory Crystal. Lol. I have one that needs to get dusted off.

How does this deck interact with MODO or arena? I imagine you'd just crash the client?

[darrenhabib]

Once you draw your deck with Will Kenrith, don't you have enough protection to then deck all your opponents?

A general has got to be busted when you start to consider playing Memory Crystal. Lol. I have one that needs to get dusted off.

How does this deck interact with MODO or arena? I imagine you'd just crash the client?

Yes you could deck your opponents But I just want to clarify that you'd need Sakashima of a Thousand Faces or Spark Double along with a buyback spell in order for this to work.

You can't do infinites on MODO, you have to literally do every action. So you demonstrate loops or just do loops a number of times in order to be satisfied you can do most things afterwards.
For example some of the loops can make infinite lands, but you still don't have an actual way to close the game at that stage. So I might create like 10 lands which is enough to be able to cast what you want in subsequent turns.
The token limit might be something like 500 before it crashes your client, which you don't get near with the deck so far because of not actually carrying through with creating large numbers.

[Epyon1201]

IsChasm Skulker, Inga Rune-Eyes, Release to the Wind, good enough for this deck?

The more casual side of me also wants to jam in Swarm Intelligence, sudden substitution, Bribery, and Acquire

[darrenhabib]

IsChasm Skulker, Inga Rune-Eyes, Release to the Wind, good enough for this deck?

The more casual side of me also wants to jam in Swarm Intelligence, sudden substitution, Bribery, and Acquire

I did have Release to the Wind as a potential include when brewing.

The "problem" with this deck is that it has been too good and I can only play in top tier competitive games. Once you have to do that then you have to cut any fat from a list.
Therefore I ended up replacing more "fun" cards like Scholar of the Lost Trove for cheap counterspells...boring.
And so that is how a lot of decks go. Once they are too good for anything other than top tier play then it actually disinterests me as game play is pretty linear in cEDH I feel these days. This is just my littler rant about decks that are clearly busted.

[Epyon1201]

Once they are too good for anything other than top tier play then it actually disinterests me

100%. I like to play cedh, and i try to pack enough interaction to make sure i'm not a burden the group by letting someone go off to easy, but ill be damned if I'm not going to jam some sub-optimal fluff somewhere in the 99

[Kelzam]

Was just looking at your list here for some inspiration for my own build and it had me curious, but how do you typically close/win games? Do you just get to a point of making infinite creatures and try to wait until your next turn to swing out? Since there's no Lab Man effects and the like

[darrenhabib]

Was just looking at your list here for some inspiration for my own build and it had me curious, but how do you typically close/win games? Do you just get to a point of making infinite creatures and try to wait until your next turn to swing out? Since there's no Lab Man effects and the like

Yes, just spam the board with infinite creatures and swing in. As far as "passing the turn" you often can draw as much of your deck as you want and you can counterspell indefinitely with creatures like Snapcaster Mage, Archaeomancer, Shipwreck Dowser, Torrential Gearhulk, Scholar of the Lost Trove, Glen Elendra Archmage.

Even if opponents cast say a Supreme Verdict you normally have created hundreds of lands (infinite if you like) so you just untap and go again with casting Ovar and some other creature you have in hand. Once you have infinite lands, it's just impossible to stop you from casting out Ovar and making infinite creatures every turn.
Your opponents would literally have to have an answer every round for the rest of the game. It's just too late by the time you've combo.

You could put Thassa's Oracle into the deck as it is not a completely dead card at other times, but still you want creatures that actually put cards into your hand so that you can dig for action.

[Kelzam]

Was just looking at your list here for some inspiration for my own build and it had me curious, but how do you typically close/win games? Do you just get to a point of making infinite creatures and try to wait until your next turn to swing out? Since there's no Lab Man effects and the like

Yes, just spam the board with infinite creatures and swing in. As far as "passing the turn" you often can draw as much of your deck as you want and you can counterspell indefinitely with creatures like Snapcaster Mage, Archaeomancer, Shipwreck Dowser, Torrential Gearhulk, Scholar of the Lost Trove, Glen Elendra Archmage.

Even if opponents cast say a Supreme Verdict you normally have created hundreds of lands (infinite if you like) so you just untap and go again with casting Ovar and some other creature you have in hand. Once you have infinite lands, it's just impossible to stop you from casting out Ovar and making infinite creatures every turn.
Your opponents would literally have to have an answer every round for the rest of the game. It's just too late by the time you've combo.

You could put Thassa's Oracle into the deck as it is not a completely dead card at other times, but still you want creatures that actually put cards into your hand so that you can dig for action.

I appreciate the elaboration on that matter! I have most of a build together and the possibilities are blowing my mind. I haven't played the deck yet but looking, and looking at it the giant web of potential is just crazy! Looking forward to seeing how it plays :D