Tormod + Prava - Tokens with +1 counters.

User avatar
bobthefunny
Resident Plainswalker
Posts: 467
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

I wanted to make a white black deck recently, and turned to Tormod, the Desecrator as the Commander I wanted to look at. Tormod has a rather interesting ability that can get out of hand quickly. The "one or more" clause tells me that I want to return things individually multiple times, rather than large mass reanimation. This seems to fit well with Salvaging Station, which is a card I routinely enjoy building around, and am perhaps a bit overdue. The artifact count for the station package also allows us to run Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle. Another trick I like in WB is to use cheap reanimation on the limited ramp creatures like Kor Cartographer and Burnished Hart - things like Undying Evil Supernatural Stamina, and the new Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire. These happen to fit perfectly into Tormod's plan. I was also looking to use a +1 counter theme in order to use Together Forever, which partially got lost along the way, but enough cards are individually good (Cathars' Crusade, Felidar Retreat, Basri's Lieutenant) that the theme remains represented.

I looked as well at self recurring creatures, such as Bloodghast, Undead Gladiator, etc. However, I am deliberately not running free sac outlets, which lowers their value considerably (A free sac outlet could go infinite-ish with Tormod + Salvaging Station).

This deck is still in the stage of seeing what works, and what doesn't.
Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:

Some other cute cards that didn't make the current cut:
Mimic Vat - Everytime thigns die, every imprint (of mine) would give a zombie.
Raven's Crime - retrace = tokens
Bag of Holding - discard = tokens - if I ran more discard, I would consider it.
Grim Harvest - Recover = token, +spell = token.
Last edited by bobthefunny 3 years ago, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
Antis
Posts: 67
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Antis » 3 years ago

I like the combo of partners!

Some cards this brought to my mind:
  • Teysa, Orzhov Scion — Seems like a no-brainer to me. Makes flying Spirits out of Tormod's Zombies, exile removal, costs three mana, so she can be recycled with Sun Titan/Teshar. All thing you wanna do, right?
  • Athreos, God of Passage — This guy is already pretty sick by himself, but Tormod juds adds value. Also, same as Teysa above, he's a three CMC creature.
  • Tortured Existence — "So, at the end of your turn, I tap out, get eight black mana, swap this creature in my hand and this creature in my graveyard eight times and get eight Zombies. Cool? Cool." =)

User avatar
bobthefunny
Resident Plainswalker
Posts: 467
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Antis wrote:
3 years ago
I like the combo of partners!

Some cards this brought to my mind:
  • Teysa, Orzhov Scion — Seems like a no-brainer to me. Makes flying Spirits out of Tormod's Zombies, exile removal, costs three mana, so she can be recycled with Sun Titan/Teshar. All thing you wanna do, right?
  • Athreos, God of Passage — This guy is already pretty sick by himself, but Tormod juds adds value. Also, same as Teysa above, he's a three CMC creature.
  • Tortured Existence — "So, at the end of your turn, I tap out, get eight black mana, swap this creature in my hand and this creature in my graveyard eight times and get eight Zombies. Cool? Cool." =)
Thanks for the reply! I had forgotten about Teysa actually, and as I'm thinking that my lack of flyers is a current problem, she might help considerably. While she's a free sac outlet, she doesn't combo directly with Tormod, so I'm not too worried about accidentally going infinite with her. Twilight Drover is another possibility (or both!).

I'd looked at Tortured Existence earlier, but found it to be just a tad bit too cute. I feel it doesn't do enough without my Commander out, and that I'd rather have Phyrexian Reclamation - however, I'm finding Together Forever to simply not have the support I need anymore in this deck, so that might be a possible swap, although Brought Back is tempting as well.

User avatar
Antis
Posts: 67
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Antis » 3 years ago

If I was building the deck, I'd probably include Tortured Existence just because I have a copy sitting in my stash somewhere =)

Also, I've just posted my Ghoulcaller Gisa deck and I wanted to just throw some cards on the wall here:

Commander's Insignia — if you want a second Cathars' Crusade, this is the next best thing, better if you want the bonus immediately

Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince — It's a land and you only have two colors, so why not?

Helm of Possession — it may be a bit too evil, depending on your group, but it's incredibly powerful

Pontiff of Blight — a great finisher for a clogged-up board.
Last edited by Antis 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
bobthefunny
Resident Plainswalker
Posts: 467
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Antis wrote:
3 years ago
I wanted to just throw some cards on the wall here:

I'm getting closer and closer to it. As I feared, Together Forever simply isn't good enough in this deck. A lot of the support ended up on the side, and there just isn't enough to make it more than cute. Tortured Existence is getting very close to getting added back in, though I may try Brought Back first. Brought Back can help protect my non-creature permanents, and also works with fetch lands, and honestly - is still par for mana if I even use it on the baubles, while netting a few cards in the process probably. So far Cauldron Haze has been the shining MVP, and while this is quite different, filling the same mana slot for a similar effect is nice. This also makes me start thinking more about Cauldron of Souls. Despite running 29 creatures, my creature count is feeling low in game. I wonder if I'm just not drawing enough cards?

Commander's Insignia - I had... actually forgotten that this was a thing. I was starting to look at Marshal's Anthem again, as I like it as a piece of recursion, and anthem tokens is always nice, but I like the better bonus on the Insignia as well. I'll definitely start looking at it more.

Westvale Abbey // Ormendahl, Profane Prince - I tend to like to keep a high basic count for the ramp options, as well as Emeria/Coffers, however, I do find that I've been using Strip Mine effects less frequently these days, so perhaps I can open a slot there. Unholy Grotto has also not really been used yet, as I typically have better ways to recur creatures. I was waiting to see if I would upgrade it to Volrath's Stronghold for Emeria/Sun Titan, but I started with the Grotto since most of the creatures are zombies.

Helm of Possession - I considered this, but without sac outlets, much of the power is lost once more. However, due to a weakness to flyers currently, I may need to look at it again, and also reconsider if I'm kneecapping myself too much by not including sac outlets.

Pontiff of Blight - With Pontiff, I'm mostly worried about mana. He's a pretty large mana sink, and I haven't seen the depth of mana generation I'd like to see for him to work. I do have Ayara, First of Locthwain as an alt-win con, and I can also consider Syr Konrad, the Grim, if I need more of that, both of which I feel would accomplish the alt win much better, though put me a step closer to the fear of an infinite combo. That said, lifegain is a bit lacking currently as well, so


===

So, I played one game tonight, which is too small a sample to really draw too many conclusions from, however, a few things came up, which I need to keep an eye on:
  • Flyers. I got hit a couple times by available flyers due to my lack of air presence. Flying token generators might need to be considered more strongly.
  • Life Recovery. After getting hit by a few flyers, as well as some non combat life loss, I was not looking pretty, and did not encounter my recovery.
  • Commander Dependency. This may have just been this game, however both of my Commanders were removed several times, and the amount of tokens I was able to make was limited. My draws were fairly mana heavy though, and not many recursion items came up in the early game.
Additional cards that I am considering:
  • Cavalier of Dawn - This may replace the general utility removal - This would help with my creature count, while also providing a decent body, and some added recursion.
  • Cavalier of Night - Likewise.
  • Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord//Whip of Erebos - Sorin was cute when I thought I might run Whip of Erebos, but Whip has a fairly high activation cost. Although I would mostly want it for just the lifelink anyways. Whip can be returned by Heliod's hall.
  • Teysa Karlov - I don't think I have a huge abundance of dies triggers - I'll need to double check; however, the lifelink and especially vigilance on the tokens might be nice.
  • Reconnaissance - I thought I could get by without it, but recon could add a lot of safety to the deck.
  • Bitterblossom - Could replace crucible. In all honesty, without extra land drops, crucible represents one token a turn with Tormod out, and so far in playtesting, land drops haven't been an especially huge problem once the draw gets going. Sacred Mesa could be an option, but is more mana heavy than I would like. Field of Souls variants I don't think go with what I am trying to accomplish.
  • Dark Prophecy - Replacing Grim Haruspex seems iffy to me right now - creature count is still being watched, however Haruspex is not a zombie, which does play with a few cards, and Prophecy triggers off of tokens, which Haruspex does not. (neither does Midnight Reaper, however he is a zombie, and also triggers on himself, which Haruspex does not).
  • Nighthawk Scavenger, Vampire Nighthawk - These didn't make it due to slots, although they would have played well with +1 counters during the time that was an idea. But now, they can fulfill some limited recovery, while also posing as air defense, fitting into two potentially needed roles.



Potential cuts/trades include: Haven't gotten to try Phyrexian Reclamation in a real game, but starting to think the cheaper activation of Tortured Existence may be more valuable.


User avatar
Antis
Posts: 67
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Antis » 3 years ago

I finally had the time to take a closer look at your list and I have some more cards I'd suggest to solve the various issues you mentioned:

Lifegain
  • Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim — This one seems perfect for this deck. She's a two-mana creature who can get you some life back by herself, or a ton with Prava and her BBB (Big Butt Bonus). She's also a non-free sacrifice outlet.
  • Sunbeam Spellbomb — Not sure about this one, but it's five life, can alternatively be sacced for a card and it's a Salvaging Station fodder.
  • Pontiff of Blight — I've already mentioned this one, I'd just like to react to your reaction. You're thinking too narrow when it comes to this card. It's only a big mana sink if you want to go all-in, which you certainly don't have to. You can just pay what you want. The freedom is the true power of this card. You can cast things like normal and maybe drain two or three life, or you can just cast a mana rock and drain for nine. It's not really an alt-win, since you're still going for your opponents' life totals, it's just direct damage. Also, extort is oldschool drain, which means that each trigger gives you one life for each opponent. If you have Pontiff, Tormod, three zombies, and three opponents, you can get up to fifteen life per spell.
  • Kokusho, the Evening Star — I know this is just a goodstuff card with no connection to the rest of the deck, but there's no question it works. Plus, it's a flyer.

Removal
  • Hour of Reckoning — This is a staple of token decks, usually works pretty well.
  • Wave of Reckoning — There's that Prava BBB coming in handy again. I'm not 100% sure this'll be a blowout, but I would definitely try it out if I were you. A chance for a five mana one-sided Wrath is too good to pass by, I think.
  • Attrition — Another token deck staple. Ahh, who am I kidding, it's a black staple, period. Aim, sac, fire, simple as that. And same as Ayli, it costs mana, so still avoiding those free sac outlets like you wanted.
  • Voyager Staff — This is more a utility piece than a removal card, but I've had some fun with it alright. It's a Station fodder that can get rid of an attacker or a blocker for a turn, murder a token permanently, hide your creature from a board wipe (even your own, hint hint), and/or reuse an ETB trigger. And don't forget you can activate it during the end step to make the creature vanish until the next turn's end step.

Dependence on commanders
  • Origin Spellbomb — Starting small here, this is one of the Scars spellbombs that can you get both the effect and the card at once. You're running the black one, but I think this one's also worth considering. Since Salvaging Station untaps whenever a creature dies, an artifact that can be recurred with it that gives you a token and a card seems like it could be useful.
  • Luminarch Ascension — This is a terrifying card, especially in multiplayer. It can be a standalone wincon if you get it online and getting it online is easier than it might look, trust me. Solves the flyer problem, too.
  • Bitterblossom — You figured this one by yourself, I'm just here to agree. If you have one/don't mind the price tag, can't go wrong with this one.

Army support
  • Divine Visitation — This is just sweet. All those zombies you're making? They're actually 4/4 flying angels now. And it's especially sweet with Tormod, since it curves off of him nicely and you can probably find some way to make a token or two right when you cast it. Also makes that Prava's activation not seem so darn overpriced anymore.
  • Anointed Procession — Well, what do you want me to say? It doubles tokens. 'Nuff said.
  • Intangible Virtue — If you want another anthem, this one's pretty good. Only two mana and vigilance is awesome for the expendable tokens, especially if they have big butts so they can actually take a hit.
  • Spirit Bonds — Might be cute, getting some flying tokens for casting your normal creatures and possibly protecting your general(s). If you decide to include Teysa, Orzhov Scion, even better.
  • Eldrazi Monument — Speaking of indestructibility, why not go all the way? Bonus for also giving flying and an anthem effect. Yeah, it eats a creature every upkeep, but honestly, if you can't manage that with indestructible Tormod/Prava, there's something very wrong.

Recursion
  • Athreos, God of Passage — Another one I've already mentioned, but you didn't give any opinion on this one. It's a really strong card. One thing to notice is that you target the opponent who has to make the choice. If one of your opponents is low on life, your creatures always return to your hand when they die (possibly creating a zombie in the process), unless that player chooses to sacrifice themselves to give the others a chance.
  • Lurrus of the Dream-Den — Small Sun Titan is still good, I think, especially when it can be recurred by said Sun Titan (and Teshar).
  • Karmic Guide — A classic. Along with...
  • Reveillark — Where one goes, the other one follows. Just imagine the scenario where you have Reveillark and Karmic Guide together. #justmonowhitethings
  • Angel of Serenity — This is a very underplayed card, I think. Maybe people don't know about it, maybe don't read it very carefully and think it's just a bigger Fiend Hunter. It's not. It is so much more. Take the time and read it extra carefully. You'll see whst I mean.

Card draw
  • Promise of Power — Sometimes, you just want to refill your hand, no questions asked. Five mana, five life, five cards. It has a lot of text, but make no mistake, this is first and foremost a potent draw spell. The demon part can come in handy sometimes, though.
  • Liliana, Dreadhorde General — Not the cheapest piece, but if you don't like how Grim Haruspex doesn't draw you cards for dying tokens, Lilly here sure does. Plus she makes her own zombies, plus she murders things.


As for possible cuts, let's see:
  • Crucible of Worlds — If you had more fetchlands, then it might be worth a slot, but as-is, you're probably right that it's not.
  • Nezumi Graverobber — I don't know about you, but this card's always been a disappointment to me. Harder to turn than it looks and it's just too expensive to use. You have both better recursion and better grave hate in your deck already. It can't even target your graveyard to make zombies. Pass.
  • Kinsbaile Courier — Despite the thread name including +1/+1 counter theme, I frankly don't see any. I means, that seems to be the reason you cut Together Forever, right? The Courier seems like weak card even if that theme was a thing, now it just doesn't do anything for the deck, I think.
  • Auriok Salvagers — Agree with you on these, too much work for too little.
  • Supernatural Stamina — I think I get what you're trying to do here, but if you save Tormod and create a zombie in the process, the rest of your army is still gone. I thinl something lile Rootborn Defenses might serve you better.
  • Malakir Rebirth — See above.
  • Oversold Cemetery — This card seems potentially troublesome to get working in this deck. You don't self-mill, which means you have to get those ceatures in the bin naturally, which in turn means that this card's cheap mana cost is mostly wasted, aince it doesn't give you any benefit in the early game. Phyrexian Reclamation is just so much better.
  • Emeria Shepherd — This is more of a question, how has this card been working out for you? I've been considering it in some decks, but I don't know...
  • Relic Seeker — This seems strange here. I mean, you only play three Equipments and if you want to tutor, you have black for that. Not to mention that if you draw this late, you might never get it renowned.
  • Steelshaper's Gift — See above.
  • Heraldic Banner — I haven't played this anywhere, yet, but it seems bad. It only boosts half your army and only gives one color of mana. The effects are so half-assed on this card that I'd think twice before adding it to a monocolored deck. More than one color? Not worth it.
Finally, the cards you cited as those you're thinking about adding:
  • Cavaliers — Good creatures, should be useful.
  • Whip of Erebos is awesome and its activation is costed reasonably. I've had good experience with it in Ghoulcaller Gisa and Rakdos, Lors of Riots.
  • Teysa Karlov — I don't think there are many dies triggers among the cards I suggested, so still a maybe, I guess.
  • Reconnaissance — Wouldn't recommend. If you want safety, I think Intangible Virtue will serve you better.
  • Nighthawks — I don't know, these seem a bit desperate. I think that in my suggestions above, you'll find cards that help solve the issues you're having while also playing into the themes of the deck.

    I know this is a lot to process, I hope this helps you tune up the deck to your liking.

User avatar
Antis
Posts: 67
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Antis » 3 years ago

@bobthefunny

Watching an episode of SCG's Commander Vs. made me realize these two would also do good work:

Syr Konrad, the Grim — Has the same trigger as Tormod plus a bunch of others, he works with tokens, and he damages all opponents through a clogged-up board. Seems like a natural fit.

The Cauldron of Eternity — When your graveyard's overflowing, who you gonna call? Yeah, new creatures won't get in as long as this is on the table, but you also get a zombie for each nontoken death, so...

User avatar
bobthefunny
Resident Plainswalker
Posts: 467
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by bobthefunny » 3 years ago

Antis wrote:
3 years ago
SPOILER
Show
Hide
I finally had the time to take a closer look at your list and I have some more cards I'd suggest to solve the various issues you mentioned:

Lifegain
  • Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim — This one seems perfect for this deck. She's a two-mana creature who can get you some life back by herself, or a ton with Prava and her BBB (Big Butt Bonus). She's also a non-free sacrifice outlet.
  • Sunbeam Spellbomb — Not sure about this one, but it's five life, can alternatively be sacced for a card and it's a Salvaging Station fodder.
  • Pontiff of Blight — I've already mentioned this one, I'd just like to react to your reaction. You're thinking too narrow when it comes to this card. It's only a big mana sink if you want to go all-in, which you certainly don't have to. You can just pay what you want. The freedom is the true power of this card. You can cast things like normal and maybe drain two or three life, or you can just cast a mana rock and drain for nine. It's not really an alt-win, since you're still going for your opponents' life totals, it's just direct damage. Also, extort is oldschool drain, which means that each trigger gives you one life for each opponent. If you have Pontiff, Tormod, three zombies, and three opponents, you can get up to fifteen life per spell.
  • Kokusho, the Evening Star — I know this is just a goodstuff card with no connection to the rest of the deck, but there's no question it works. Plus, it's a flyer.

Removal
  • Hour of Reckoning — This is a staple of token decks, usually works pretty well.
  • Wave of Reckoning — There's that Prava BBB coming in handy again. I'm not 100% sure this'll be a blowout, but I would definitely try it out if I were you. A chance for a five mana one-sided Wrath is too good to pass by, I think.
  • Attrition — Another token deck staple. Ahh, who am I kidding, it's a black staple, period. Aim, sac, fire, simple as that. And same as Ayli, it costs mana, so still avoiding those free sac outlets like you wanted.
  • Voyager Staff — This is more a utility piece than a removal card, but I've had some fun with it alright. It's a Station fodder that can get rid of an attacker or a blocker for a turn, murder a token permanently, hide your creature from a board wipe (even your own, hint hint), and/or reuse an ETB trigger. And don't forget you can activate it during the end step to make the creature vanish until the next turn's end step.

Dependence on commanders
  • Origin Spellbomb — Starting small here, this is one of the Scars spellbombs that can you get both the effect and the card at once. You're running the black one, but I think this one's also worth considering. Since Salvaging Station untaps whenever a creature dies, an artifact that can be recurred with it that gives you a token and a card seems like it could be useful.
  • Luminarch Ascension — This is a terrifying card, especially in multiplayer. It can be a standalone wincon if you get it online and getting it online is easier than it might look, trust me. Solves the flyer problem, too.
  • Bitterblossom — You figured this one by yourself, I'm just here to agree. If you have one/don't mind the price tag, can't go wrong with this one.

Army support
  • Divine Visitation — This is just sweet. All those zombies you're making? They're actually 4/4 flying angels now. And it's especially sweet with Tormod, since it curves off of him nicely and you can probably find some way to make a token or two right when you cast it. Also makes that Prava's activation not seem so darn overpriced anymore.
  • Anointed Procession — Well, what do you want me to say? It doubles tokens. 'Nuff said.
  • Intangible Virtue — If you want another anthem, this one's pretty good. Only two mana and vigilance is awesome for the expendable tokens, especially if they have big butts so they can actually take a hit.
  • Spirit Bonds — Might be cute, getting some flying tokens for casting your normal creatures and possibly protecting your general(s). If you decide to include Teysa, Orzhov Scion, even better.
  • Eldrazi Monument — Speaking of indestructibility, why not go all the way? Bonus for also giving flying and an anthem effect. Yeah, it eats a creature every upkeep, but honestly, if you can't manage that with indestructible Tormod/Prava, there's something very wrong.

Recursion
  • Athreos, God of Passage — Another one I've already mentioned, but you didn't give any opinion on this one. It's a really strong card. One thing to notice is that you target the opponent who has to make the choice. If one of your opponents is low on life, your creatures always return to your hand when they die (possibly creating a zombie in the process), unless that player chooses to sacrifice themselves to give the others a chance.
  • Lurrus of the Dream-Den — Small Sun Titan is still good, I think, especially when it can be recurred by said Sun Titan (and Teshar).
  • Karmic Guide — A classic. Along with...
  • Reveillark — Where one goes, the other one follows. Just imagine the scenario where you have Reveillark and Karmic Guide together. #justmonowhitethings
  • Angel of Serenity — This is a very underplayed card, I think. Maybe people don't know about it, maybe don't read it very carefully and think it's just a bigger Fiend Hunter. It's not. It is so much more. Take the time and read it extra carefully. You'll see whst I mean.

Card draw
  • Promise of Power — Sometimes, you just want to refill your hand, no questions asked. Five mana, five life, five cards. It has a lot of text, but make no mistake, this is first and foremost a potent draw spell. The demon part can come in handy sometimes, though.
  • Liliana, Dreadhorde General — Not the cheapest piece, but if you don't like how Grim Haruspex doesn't draw you cards for dying tokens, Lilly here sure does. Plus she makes her own zombies, plus she murders things.


As for possible cuts, let's see:
  • Crucible of Worlds — If you had more fetchlands, then it might be worth a slot, but as-is, you're probably right that it's not.
  • Nezumi Graverobber — I don't know about you, but this card's always been a disappointment to me. Harder to turn than it looks and it's just too expensive to use. You have both better recursion and better grave hate in your deck already. It can't even target your graveyard to make zombies. Pass.
  • Kinsbaile Courier — Despite the thread name including +1/+1 counter theme, I frankly don't see any. I means, that seems to be the reason you cut Together Forever, right? The Courier seems like weak card even if that theme was a thing, now it just doesn't do anything for the deck, I think.
  • Auriok Salvagers — Agree with you on these, too much work for too little.
  • Supernatural Stamina — I think I get what you're trying to do here, but if you save Tormod and create a zombie in the process, the rest of your army is still gone. I thinl something lile Rootborn Defenses might serve you better.
  • Malakir Rebirth — See above.
  • Oversold Cemetery — This card seems potentially troublesome to get working in this deck. You don't self-mill, which means you have to get those ceatures in the bin naturally, which in turn means that this card's cheap mana cost is mostly wasted, aince it doesn't give you any benefit in the early game. Phyrexian Reclamation is just so much better.
  • Emeria Shepherd — This is more of a question, how has this card been working out for you? I've been considering it in some decks, but I don't know...
  • Relic Seeker — This seems strange here. I mean, you only play three Equipments and if you want to tutor, you have black for that. Not to mention that if you draw this late, you might never get it renowned.
  • Steelshaper's Gift — See above.
  • Heraldic Banner — I haven't played this anywhere, yet, but it seems bad. It only boosts half your army and only gives one color of mana. The effects are so half-assed on this card that I'd think twice before adding it to a monocolored deck. More than one color? Not worth it.
Finally, the cards you cited as those you're thinking about adding:
  • Cavaliers — Good creatures, should be useful.
  • Whip of Erebos is awesome and its activation is costed reasonably. I've had good experience with it in Ghoulcaller Gisa and Rakdos, Lors of Riots.
  • Teysa Karlov — I don't think there are many dies triggers among the cards I suggested, so still a maybe, I guess.
  • Reconnaissance — Wouldn't recommend. If you want safety, I think Intangible Virtue will serve you better.
  • Nighthawks — I don't know, these seem a bit desperate. I think that in my suggestions above, you'll find cards that help solve the issues you're having while also playing into the themes of the deck.

    I know this is a lot to process, I hope this helps you tune up the deck to your liking.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. It was a bit to process, coupled with that I'm thinking the Salvaging Station idea isn't working out for this deck. On paper it looks great, but in practice it's proving to be a bit messy. If it goes off, it's amazing, but getting the pieces assembled isn't working to my liking.

I'll start off with answering a few questions:
  • Supernatural Stamina / Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire / Undying Evil / Kaya's Ghostform / Brought Back - While saving Tormod with these will help save his tax (and it does add up fast, he gets targeted quickly), it won't net a zombie. When he dies, the trigger will activate, but as he's not on the battlefield when he leaves the GY (because he's in the GY...) he can't trigger. Instead, these are cheap flexible spells that accomplish a variety of uses. First, it's one of my favored ways to cheat ramp in w/b. Getting a second shot at a Knight of the White Orchid or Burnished Hart is quite nice. They also serve as pinpoint saves to removal. That they make a zombie with Tormod is icing on the cake.
  • Cauldron Haze - I need to make a special callout from the above to Cauldron Haze though, since each persist triggers separately you can bring Tormod back before the others, and get a bunch of tokens still. Not for himself, but it will work for the rest of them.
  • Relic Seeker (and the equipment package). This is again a flexibility package which works well in most w/x decks. even without a lot of equipment, Sword of the Animist and Skullclamp guarantee mana ramp and draw in the early game. Relic Seeker is nice because he also provides a body to attach them to. Usually I also go with Stoneforge Mystic, but I wasn't looking to overload the value at first. I usually like to have at least 3 equipment in the package, and I usually find that Sword of Light and Shadow makes a good 3rd addition, having good protections, as well as rounding out with recursion. Feast and Famine works for more mana, and fire/ice for more draw, but with black powering the draw I don't feel SoFI is adding much. Nim Deathmantle is a possibility for recursion, but takes up a fair bit of mana.
  • Heraldic Banner won't fit into every deck, but it has been surprisingly good for me in several decks. For 2 color decks and Token decks, I would add it to considerations. In a pinch it can fix your missing color, though usually you'll know what color you want to pick. Most decks tend to lean more heavily one way or another. Even if it boosts only have your army - it's on a mana rock. It's a practically free combat buff. That's fairly insane tbh. If you're playing mono-color, it's a no brainer, but in token decks I would argue almost the same. My Knights decks has a good time naming White on it - most creatures and most tokens are white - and while a few creatures will get missed (Josu Vess, Lich Knight), overall it's a sizable buff to the army on a mana rock. In this deck, I usually name Black. The deck leans more heavily toward black, plus Tormod tokens.
  • Emeria Shepherd - This will depend on how you build the deck, however it has the potential to be absolutely backbreaking. I can't count the number of times in various decks where I've been wrathed, only to drop Emeria Shepherd the next turn and rebuild my entire board instantly. Something like, cast Shepherd, play fetch land, get Marshal's Anthem back to hand, crack fetch, get plains, return Sun Titan to play. Sun titan returns fetch, return something to hand, crack fetch, get plains, return Solemn Simulacrum, get plains, return Burnished Hart crack, get 2 plains, return the rest of my board. Not only do I now have my board back, but I have the Anthem in hand, which means you need to wrath and clear my GY, or it happens again. I've run the angel to success in up to three colors. I had it in a 5 color deck, with typed duals which worked well enough, but you play her a bit differently there. Landfall recur to hand is still plenty good.
  • Reconnaissance vs Intangible Virtue - even with the +1, Recon is infinitely better. It essentially gives your board vigilance (you can remove from combat in the end of combat step, after damage is dealt), while allowing you to attack with impunity, and save anything that is unfavorably blocked.
  • Nighthawks. - The idea here is that they come down early and deter attacks from the beginning. They also deter attacks without being as threatening as something like Kokusho. If someone loads up a large attacker, to say, a 13/13 dragon, a 6/6 Scourge of Nel Toth won't be a deterrent, but a Nighthawk still might be. Ideally, they can also be loaded up with +1 counters for later value, but as you've pointed out, I'm missing that aspect of my deck now.
  • Nezumi Graverobber // Nighteyes the Desecrator tends to be good if you have extra mana to throw around. Usually I don't find that I have too many issues ramping to that point, but I'm not feeling it here. Flipping him isn't always terrible either, usually there are enough Bojuka Bog or Nihil Spellbomb effects to reset someone, and then you can flip him at will. Or you can dump 14 into him. Either way, I agree that this isn't the deck for him. Nothing of mine is worth brining back at that cost, and currently there are other, better, gy options.
  • Kinsbaile Courier - I was intrigued by Commander Legends with this guy, as he seems innocuous, but Encore this cheap could have nice benefits. The idea was that +1 counter build idea (which is now missing), encore plays well with Tormod (once), encore tokens get buffed by Prava, and then when the tokens die, they give fodder to the Station. So the idea was that it played well with everything in the deck. I think there's still some possibility here, but I'm going to need to refocus the deck a little bit.
Hopefully that at least explains a little bit about where those came from, and the reasoning/ideas behind them.

On to suggestions - I won't go over all of them - some of them are pretty straight forward and I don't have much to add over what you said:
  • Lark/Guide - I wanted to avoid infinite loops, or potential infinites, but I wonder now if that's the approach. I still want to avoid inifinites, but I'm starting to consider cutting the station package, and just double down on creature cycling. My fear with creature cycling is that I'll just end up with a Blood Artist aristocrats build again, and I've done that to death.
  • Angel of Serenity - I agree this packs more punch than people expect. It's flexible removal and recursion, and sometimes both at the same time. I've run it in several decks before. I didn't slot it in here due to mana concerns, initially.
  • Lurrus of the Dream-Den - I'm a little concerned that he doesn't let me play lands/fetch land the way Titan would, but he does look quite cute. I'll definitely consider him.
  • Voyager Staff - actually usually makes my Station packages. It's surprisingly more powerful than most people expect. I just didn't want to overload the Station package slots, so this is one that got cut, but I agree on its power.
  • Origin Spellbomb - That said, I actually missed this one. I think it speaks that I haven't built a WB station deck in a while, I agree with you that this would be a powerhouse for the package.
Antis wrote:
3 years ago
@bobthefunny

Watching an episode of SCG's Commander Vs. made me realize these two would also do good work:

Syr Konrad, the Grim — Has the same trigger as Tormod plus a bunch of others, he works with tokens, and he damages all opponents through a clogged-up board. Seems like a natural fit.

The Cauldron of Eternity — When your graveyard's overflowing, who you gonna call? Yeah, new creatures won't get in as long as this is on the table, but you also get a zombie for each nontoken death, so...

Konrad actually triggers more than Tormod, which is terrifying. I chose not to run him because I didn't want to go into Aristocrat lines with this deck, and I also have him currently in my Knights deck, and he can already be a bit of a memorable presence in the games he shows up in, and didn't want to double down on that.

The Cauldron of Eternity is a card I'm trying out in various decks. Currently... I'm just not getting enough creatures in my graveyard to be able to afford it, oddly enough. That said, I think there's a place here in one build line. If I cut the Station package, add in sac outlets like Altar of Dementia, self recurring creatures like Bloodghast, and double down on creature recursion, I think there's a good line for it.

That may be the direction I choose to take this deck.

As I see it, there's a few build lines I can take here:
1) Double down on the Station. Add in the sac outlets, Spawning Pit, etc, and go with white eggs approach, ie. Second Sunrise / Faith's Reward, etc, and make the deck about non-creature recursion, and Tormod is a cog in that machine.
2) Double down on the creature recursion, ie Athreos, God of Passage, Gift of Immortality, etc.
3) Drop white, go UB with Tormod+X and use Trinket Mage / Treasure Mage to double down on Station build, and go full on with Voyager Staff, etc.



The third is obviously a completely different deck, and I don't think I want to go that way yet, as I've done that deck before (though it's been a good amount of time). Either way, I think I want to play the deck a bit more and see which aspects I find to be the more amusing side. I'm guessing that it may be the Station side, as I am enjoying Conjurer's Bauble and Scrabbling Claws with Tormod. They're just funny.

User avatar
Antis
Posts: 67
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Antis » 3 years ago

@bobthefunny

I personally would go for option 2). And not just double down on creatures, but double down on tokens. The deck does seem a bit unfocused ATM, which is strange considering both generals do token things. Athreos, Teysa 1.0, Ayli, Luminarch Ascension, Anointed Procession... Along with Tormod and Prava, these should positively flood the board with weenies. This is the reason I've recommended Intangible Virtue over Reconaissance. You should have so many tokens that they're expendable. So what if you lose two or three zombies to blockers, the other seven are gonna punch for more.

Speaking of flooding the board with tokens, two more cards come to mind: Decree of Justice and Martial Coup.

If you decide to ditch the Station package, it would be probably best to fill the space with more creatures. After all, it's the card type that's the easiest to recur. Oh and Reveillark and Karmic Guide don't go infinite unless you have a repeatable free sacrifice outlet. If you stick to your guns and keep that Spawning Put out, they should be fine.

Also, focusing on creatures reminded me of another thing that's missing from your list — removal based on your creatures. Even if you didn't want to go full Grave Pact (which I could understand, some people find it too oppressive), where is Fleshbag Marauder? Merciless Executioner? Plaguecrafter? And what about Shriekmaw, Abyssal Gatekeeper, or Bone Shredder? With these, you could get creature removal that can be easily reused and ramp up those creature numbers in the process.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”