[Primer WIP] Trynn & Silvar Rebel Yell - a Multiplayer Conscious Deck

[DirkGently]

For political purposes, I think when you're talking about removal, instant-speed is so crucial. So shriekmaw is already, imo, far inferior to any decent instant-speed targeted removal. For a blunt weapon like fleshy, the instant-speed isn't as important, so it loses a lot less value than shriekmaw does by being a sorcery. If you're playing a black control deck with some political elements, using fleshbag loops and whatnot as sorcery speed, blunt weapon, loud, "I'm going to dominate the board now" plays, with instant removal for when you're playing the quieter, more fade-into-the-shadows political game. Broadly speaking, of course - there will be tons of situations where you need to use fleshy to surgically kill one scary but solitary creature, and instant removal is still useful when you're playing archenemy, but those would be their main roles in the strategy, from my pov.

[Wallycaine]

Overall I think doom is more of a blunt weapon, and political techniques favor more surgical precision to manage the board state and keep the flow of the game going in the direction that favors you. Not a bad card, but I think you're trying to focus on political play I'd tend towards something more precise.

The nice aspect about Crackling Doom (and board wipe type effects in general) politically, is they can let you trim down a player's board without necessarily getting blamed for it. If crackling doom is the available answer to a must kill threat, they other players aren't necessarily going to hold it against you when they lose something to collateral damage.

Ideally, I'd prefer to have both the surgical and blunt instruments available so I could measure myself whether other players' resources are acting in my benefit or not.

Is this why flesh bag variants are more popular and common in multiplayer lists than Shriekmaw effects?

I think partially the aspects Tstorm touched on, but also the fact that they just straight get more value. Shriekmaw only ever hits one creature, while Merciless Executioner normally catches 3. Now, they won't always be good creatures you're killing, but Fleshbag variants do a good job of scaling to multiplayer, where Shriekmaw and other "ETB, kill a dude" guys don't typically.

[FenrirRex]

Yes, you'll find that blunt instruments that impact the whole board, whether it's Fleshbag Marauder or Wrath of God, will net you less hate than stax effects- especially if they are answering the larger problems at the table. People are much more willing to accept collateral damage so long as the problems being dealt with are threatening enough.

Mind you, that's the line where the real question of politics can lie. That Crackling Doom can only do so much, and communicating with the table to determine if it's a good play can earn you a lot of brownie points. Similarly, cards like Plaguecrafter and friends can help police large, singular problems while more subtly sweeping up other issues, but they also run the risk of being oppressive when looped or combined with Grave Pact et al.- the perfect example of the "how" the card is played mattering more than the card itself.

[3drinks]

So I think I kinda worked the idea out. I keep ending up back on Trynn/Silvar cause....well, I had them altered in old face, so I kinda want to use them and show them off. But then I want to do Rebels with them. Rebels are humans which has the added synergy with the pair, but ultimately they're not impressive which keeps me from appearing the most threatening at the table. This is kinda what I know, but to do it without the lockdowns I've become so accustomed to....I wanna say that's a start.

I can even leave the Pariah|usg out if the interaction with the nightmare kitty really is too much.

[FenrirRex]

So I think I kinda worked the idea out. I keep ending up back on Trynn/Silvar cause....well, I had them altered in old face, so I kinda want to use them and show them off. But then I want to do Rebels with them. Rebels are humans which has the added synergy with the pair, but ultimately they're not impressive which keeps me from appearing the most threatening at the table. This is kinda what I know, but to do it without the lockdowns I've become so accustomed to....I wanna say that's a start.

I can even leave the Pariah|usg out if the interaction with the nightmare kitty really is too much.

Toolbox creatures like rebels have a decent shot at playing well politically, and if you can manage to build without resource denial or other lightning-rod cards then it can definitely be a good base. Definitely avoid pariah lock if you're not looking to make enemies. I run a Reyhan, Last of the Abzan x Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder human tribal deck that isn't interested in politics- excluding who the correct person to turn humies sideways towards. Lots of fun when I'm in the mood for something straightforward.

There is something to be said for that kind of simplicity, though I'm not sure a Trynn, Champion of Freedom x Silvar, Devourer of the Free will want to do anything other than win by swinging in with the indestructible kitty. It's an honest enough wincon though, so even that is a step up if you manage to avoid other feel-bad plays for the rest of the table. (And I get the impression that you like having a wincon in the command zone.)

[tstorm823]

For political purposes, I think when you're talking about removal, instant-speed is so crucial. So shriekmaw is already, imo, far inferior to any decent instant-speed targeted removal.

Cannot stress this enough. When you're trying to control the impact of a card to maximize effect among multiple opponents, timing restrictions are brutal.

So I think I kinda worked the idea out. I keep ending up back on Trynn/Silvar cause....well, I had them altered in old face

This is as good a reason as any to play them, especially if they're the intended win condition. People will like if you have something you obviously love. That is political already. Of course, the inverse effect is also a risk: if you play something as a commander and visually make a big deal out of it, and then win with the rest of the deck in a way that made the commander choice irrelevant, people may be annoyed by that. But an indestructible commander plays well with an interactive mardu deck.

There is something to be said for that kind of simplicity, though I'm not sure a Trynn, Champion of Freedom x Silvar, Devourer of the Free will want to do anything other than win by swinging in with the indestructible kitty. It's an honest enough wincon though, so even that is a step up if you manage to avoid other feel-bad plays for the rest of the table. (And I get the impression that you like having a wincon in the command zone.)

That can be a big advantage. Having the win condition right up front means the rest of the deck can be the political part. The ubiquitous card draw commanders all inevitably scream "I'm drawing to something scary but you don't know what yet". Basically saying "this is the scary threat" upfront can keep people from doing the "that person is a wildcard and needs to die immediately" strategy.

[3drinks]

Y'know, there's so much fantastic content in this thread already, I think we should hereby - once some list is inserted and a write up created - dub this a pseudo primer, at least for multiplayer mardu and how to not jump to lock out strats. I'll start working on that over the next few days.

Out of curiosity, I price checked all the rebels and had a cart total of $16 before shipping. Then I went to add Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, cause that seems on theme with a bunch of small rebels, and the cart total more than doubled ha. Probably for the best since I'm confident that Elesh Norn and all the requisite reanimation to keep her on the board, is exactly what I shouldn't be doing. Hey, I'm learning stuff. Who'd have thunk it? 👀

[FenrirRex]

Aw yeah, the lessons are sticking. I personally love Elesh but yeah, she is another one of those cards that is likely to have people feeling salty. It's a shame that Trynn doesn't have an activated ability, cuz rebels could be a very fun Zirda, the Dawnwaker companion deck- still definitely deserves a spot in the 99.

[3drinks]

Aw yeah, the lessons are sticking. I personally love Elesh but yeah, she is another one of those cards that is likely to have people feeling salty. It's a shame that Trynn doesn't have an activated ability, cuz rebels could be a very fun Zirda, the Dawnwaker companion deck- still definitely deserves a spot in the 99.

That's even better than my original Heartstone idea. Better not add in a monolith, or a dwarf, though.

[FenrirRex]

Non-repeatable, single-target land removal isn't the worst in small numbers (like, one or two-of at most)- you may even be able to get away with Avalanche Riders since they're in your tribe (and you can sack them to Silvar before the echo matters)- but I would still recommend going against your usual urge to blow up lands at all. Similarly, if you can't avoid that urge, I would avidly avoid ways to recur them, which feels like a bad play when Alesha, Who Smiles at Death is otherwise another perfect fit.

[toctheyounger]

In terms of land destruction, targeted destruction isn't the worst if your meta is rational about things that need to die like Coffers and Cradle, Field of the Dead etc.

You can help by making it as fair as possible too. Field of Ruin is great for that, even Ghost Quarter is ok too. Field I prefer in a political perspective purely because you get some good will from the table for a little ramp and you replace the targeted land, and your Field too. Its as even handed as it gets.

[3drinks]

How would an average table feel about some Fervent Charge + Aggravated Assault? Ignore that I am running Sword of Feast and Famine|j14, because it's such a pretty design, since it doesn't care about the F.C. in that situation.

It's the first mardu identity card, and it helps the rebels be considerably less wimpy.

[Rumpy5897]

The Assault + SoFaF infinite is a bit been here done that, yet still relatively interesting as far as infinites go as you have to convert with your board. I can't imagine Fervent Charge would be problematic as a card.

[toctheyounger]

Easy enough to disrupt, easy enough to see coming without being too cringingly unoriginal, I'd say it's fine. Especially considering you don't expect humans to be walking tanks or anything, gives it kind of a neat interesting factor despite being Assault being fairly pedestrian. Given its mashing up niche with pedestrian, I like it personally, and Fervent Charge is a card I wasn't familiar with so I learned something new today too.

[FenrirRex]

Shouldn't be any real complaints about either assault or charge, though Aggravated Assault is a known quantity in several infinites, so people may look at it sideways. If the deck appears to be "honestly" looking just to jam some extra combat steps though, doing it at five mana a pop is quite acceptable.

Relatedly, keep in mind a couple of things concerning infinites if you want to have both the sword and the assault in the deck: once the deck is known to contain any infinites, you can't put the lid back on that particular box. For some players, just that the infinite exists, is enough to make you a target (even if you've no intention of using it). It then becomes a question of how many pieces are needed for the combo, how interactive it is (in this case it's minimum three pieces and highly interactive, so not super threatening compared to some), and how easy it is for you to assemble.

If you want to include pieces of an infinite in your deck, strongly consider not running tutors so you don't have to fight the inclination to go for it.

[3drinks]

Shouldn't be any real complaints about either assault or charge, though Aggravated Assault is a known quantity in several infinites, so people may look at it sideways. If the deck appears to be "honestly" looking just to jam some extra combat steps though, doing it at five mana a pop is quite acceptable.

Relatedly, keep in mind a couple of things concerning infinites if you want to have both the sword and the assault in the deck: once the deck is known to contain any infinites, you can't put the lid back on that particular box. For some players, just that the infinite exists, is enough to make you a target (even if you've no intention of using it). It then becomes a question of how many pieces are needed for the combo, how interactive it is (in this case it's minimum three pieces and highly interactive, so not super threatening compared to some), and how easy it is for you to assemble.

If you want to include pieces of an infinite in your deck, strongly consider not running tutors so you don't have to fight the inclination to go for it.

Enlightened Tutor is the only one that could fetch these specifically, but there's enough times where I'm just fetching a Divining Top or Land Tax as well. Can't imagine demonic/grim for AA ever, unless it's late and just needs to end, which is still 6BRRR to pull off in one turn with multiple choke points both en route to setup, and on the actual activation of it all. I've seen games end for less mana and with less failsafes. The deck is still mostly staying old face, (sans ubiquitous cards that care about shuffles, a la divining top and scroll rack for the sickness), though with the new Rebels so I can have some decent variety and strength. And, y'know, cause Mirror Entity is the best Rebel of all time.

I honestly don't expect SoFaF to sit on board more than a turn before it gets a Nature's Claim pointed at it, all-in-all.

And though I think there's a lot of synergy in it, I think I'm correct to not run grave pact|8ed, right? For the scope of the multiplayer consciousness. What about Meekstone|LEB?

[MeowZeDung]

I've read bits and pieces of this thread - which is mighty good reading and useful info - but I haven't read every bit of it, so pardon if I'm just repeating what's already been said: you're running black and looking to be more political, so have a look at effects like Scheming Symmetry and Wishclaw Talisman perhaps. They both seem like a good way for you to seem like the good guy at the table and soberly suggest that you contribute resources to dealing with the biggest problem player whilst in reality you are focusing on your own plots.

[3drinks]

I'm still not for sure I've figured out this image hosting site, but this is the manabase I'm using in this 90% pre-modern deck. Spoiler tags in case this ends up being a really large image.

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[toctheyounger]

And though I think there's a lot of synergy in it, I think I'm correct to not run grave pact, right? For the scope of the multiplayer consciousness. What about Meekstone?

Others will chime in, but I think you're probably right, they're both a little oppressive to make you seem like a viable political candidate once either has been cast.

[3drinks]

And though I think there's a lot of synergy in it, I think I'm correct to not run grave pact, right? For the scope of the multiplayer consciousness. What about Meekstone?

Others will chime in, but I think you're probably right, they're both a little oppressive to make you seem like a viable political candidate once either has been cast.

Guess I'll load up on anthems the other way then. Shared Triumph et al. Probably make allowances for Metallic Mimic and co despite not being pre-modern, because they technically are rebels when it matters. They just can't be tutoured up.

[toctheyounger]

And though I think there's a lot of synergy in it, I think I'm correct to not run grave pact, right? For the scope of the multiplayer consciousness. What about Meekstone?

Others will chime in, but I think you're probably right, they're both a little oppressive to make you seem like a viable political candidate once either has been cast.

Guess I'll load up on anthems the other way then. Shared Triumph et al. Probably make allowances for Metallic Mimic and co despite not being pre-modern, because they technically are rebels when it matters. They just can't be tutoured up.

Shared Animosity seems like a good add, although it isn't pre-modern. You could always look at some instant speed combat tricks too, like Master Warcraft and Akroma's Will, although again those are both in the same boat.

Warcraft in particular is nice because you can use it to totally hose an alpha strike to curry favour if needed. Or just, you know, in case of Craterhoof.

[3drinks]

Or just, you know, in case of Craterhoof.

In case of Craterhoof, break glass.

[FenrirRex]

Others will chime in, but I think you're probably right, they're both a little oppressive to make you seem like a viable political candidate once either has been cast.

Guess I'll load up on anthems the other way then. Shared Triumph et al. Probably make allowances for Metallic Mimic and co despite not being pre-modern, because they technically are rebels when it matters. They just can't be tutoured up.

Shared Animosity seems like a good add, although it isn't pre-modern. You could always look at some instant speed combat tricks too, like Master Warcraft and Akroma's Will, although again those are both in the same boat.

Warcraft in particular is nice because you can use it to totally hose an alpha strike to curry favour if needed. Or just, you know, in case of Craterhoof.

I'll second avoiding staxy effects in general, especially with ease of access to tokens in the command zone. I'll also second the fun of instant speed ways to mess with combat. The fun of the rebel tribe is their ability to tutor up their fellows at instant speed, so being able to hold up mana to grab your Big Game Hunter while potentially threatening Comeuppance instead if you need it is solid. (Also makes some of the commentary of holding off on throwing rocks from earlier relevant.)

[3drinks]

Guess I'll load up on anthems the other way then. Shared Triumph et al. Probably make allowances for Metallic Mimic and co despite not being pre-modern, because they technically are rebels when it matters. They just can't be tutoured up.

Shared Animosity seems like a good add, although it isn't pre-modern. You could always look at some instant speed combat tricks too, like Master Warcraft and Akroma's Will, although again those are both in the same boat.

Warcraft in particular is nice because you can use it to totally hose an alpha strike to curry favour if needed. Or just, you know, in case of Craterhoof.

I'll second avoiding staxy effects in general, especially with ease of access to tokens in the command zone. I'll also second the fun of instant speed ways to mess with combat. The fun of the rebel tribe is their ability to tutor up their fellows at instant speed, so being able to hold up mana to grab your Big Game Hunter while potentially threatening Comeuppance instead if you need it is solid. (Also makes some of the commentary of holding off on throwing rocks from earlier relevant.)

Probably not doing Comeuppance, but for sure I'll sleeve up Eye for an Eye|fbb, so I understand this sentiment. And Big Hunter is one of the best rebels. I've got so many more options here than sticking in mono w with Lin Sivvi. Think I've got thirty-nine saved for latre while I tweak, address, and assess the needs of the deck.

I kinda think Valiant Changeling is low key strong. I can't tutour a seven drop, but I think I can reasonably reduce it to at least three frequently enough. Human, Rebel, Cat and Soldier already brings it to four.

[tstorm823]

I honestly don't expect SoFaF to sit on board more than a turn before it gets a Nature's Claim pointed at it, all-in-all.

Then cut it.

If you're trying to win games through politics, you should be playing few or no cards your opponent's consider "kill-on-sight" cards. If you play a sword just to immediately get claimed, you've lost a card, you wasted the mana, you've tapped that mana at sorcery speed putting yourself off interaction, and you've cleared the way for the table to play threatening artifacts/enchantments and get away with it. If you're an aggressive, linear deck, that last part might be a positive because you've cleared the way for yourself, but a politically-minded deck is largely about getting your opponents to answer each other instead of you.

There are those that advocate table-talk politics, trying to argue your opponents into doing what you want them to, but I'm personally a major proponent of silent politics. A lot of your opponents actions can be influenced without saying a word through deck-building and play patterns. If you're playing a strong card just for being strong, chances are it's likely to draw attention to itself and you. A weaker card that stays in play can be more valuable than the strongest card that reliably dies. And if you play weaker cards on purpose and people still target your stuff, don't complain about it, because that will just confirm to them that what they killed was important and they made the right choice.

Minor personal example: I play Zedruu without any "bad gifts" in part because I don't want people to kill Zedruu. It's a choice to actively minimize the threat presented by the card I want to survive. Zedruu being a deadly threat makes it eat more removal, which makes it worse at drawing cards which is what I actually want. If you play a 2-card combo, you can't expect people to let either card sit in play, so when you play one of them, your deckbuilding decision will influence people's decisions regardless of what you say or do with it. Suddenly, by including the sword, now Relentless Assault is a worse card any time you don't have the sword with it because of the combo threat is poses. Sword makes assault an instant win condition, but it also makes it worse at just pumping out extra combat for extra combat's sake because people will be tunnel visioned into killing the combo piece.