[Primer WIP] Trynn & Silvar Rebel Yell - a Multiplayer Conscious Deck

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materpillar
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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
Wow I'm really effin clueless I guess. Yes, all my strats are about some form of denial because if don't, then rando #78 wins because no one else stops them. 😐
There's a difference between stopping someone from doing a thing and stopping people from doing all the things.

Wrath of God stops some things. Wrath of God every turn stops all the things.
Strip Mine stops some things. Strip Mine + Crucible of Worlds stops all the things (eventually, in a 1v1 situation)
Pariah stops some things. Pariah on Silvar, Devourer of the Free stops all the things.
Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith and Falthis, Shadowcat Familiar stop some things. Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith + tons of landfall + tons of deathtouch + tons of hasty creatures, stops all the things.

Stopping some things is a necessary part of the game. Stopping all the things repeatedly, every game, is going to make everyone hate you and as far as I can tell you have a tendency to slide towards wanting to stop all the things. I mean look at your response "If I don't stop the things, some rando is going to win" implying you personally need to stop everyone else from winning at all times. Logically it all makes sense. If you need to personally stop everyone it's basically impossible to do that reactively, so you do it pro-actively. Then, when you do it pro-actively you stop everyone from doing all the things. When you do that, everyone figures it out and murders you as fast as possible every game.

Compare your lines of thought to Dirk's and his Phelddagrif deck. I mean his deck is literally only removal and is built with the entire intent being to stop rando #78 from winning, especially at higher power tables. Yet his deck thrives off politics while yours do not. A large portion of that is because he explicitly does not try to stop all the things.

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Let Things Get a Little Out of Hand
Especially if you're new to the deck, I recommend keeping a very loose grip on the reins. Of course some threats are going to require answering – instant-win combos, cards that will make you discard your hand, etc. – but many cards considered "most answer threats" can be safely ignored. This is especially true if the power level of the decks isn't too high. A Consecrated Sphinx is totally fine if it's controlled by someone with a fairly weak deck. Leaving these threats alive gives your opponents a chance to answer them, a chance to get more value from your board wipes, and most importantly a chance for your opponents to be the threats. You want the other players to engage with the threat, damage to be dealt, fur to fly, etc. Let them wear each other out. Remember that the better control you have, the less you have to use it, and we have amazing control with this deck. Sit back a bit and see what unfolds. A lot of the time a light touch is the best choice, especially since it lets you stay as invisible as possible.

Don't Be Invincible
When people think of the archetypical control deck, they think of one that won't let anything attacking them survive, anything targeting them resolve, etc. People fear and hate that deck. For that reason, it's important not to appear invincible to your opponents. If they attack you for a few points of damage, don't sweat it. Don't make it look like you don't care at all, but don't swear vengeance on their family either. Usually an "aww, rude" is about the right tone to strike if they give you a decent-sized hit, or destroy one of your permanents. If you appear to be reasonably vulnerable, they'll be a lot less trepidatious about allowing the game to go to a 1v1 against you, and a lot more likely to fight with each other. That's not to say you need to take everything, of course – if it's a serious blow, by all means block it. But don't get hung up on every little transgression made against you, and don't make a retaliatory threat about every move someone might make against you. If they continue to target you, then make it clear that you do have teeth, but don't be quick to anger.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

So..... we're saying "less Solitary Confinement, more Karmic Justice"?

"Less Peacekeeper, more Plumeveil"?

Let people do what it is they want that isn't directly winning, but those actions have reactions, essentially.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
So..... we're saying "less Solitary Confinement, more Karmic Justice"?

"Less Peacekeeper, more Plumeveil"?

Let people do what it is they want that isn't directly winning, but those actions have reactions, essentially.
To some extent, yeah. If you let people do what they want to do within reason, they're going to spend much less energy on stopping what you're doing. There's a sweet spot where they don't quite hit their payoff, but they're happy enough aiming for a goal you never intend to let them achieve. Whereas if you're locking everyone out of the game, they're all pulling in the same direction, and that direction is towards your face. What you want is a little engineered chaos; let them all run in different directions, enough that they contradict each other, don't ally, and their goals contravene each other. And when the opportunity presents itself, ally with them to assist you in your plans which benefit them in an ancillary way.

There's a time and place for cards that have an air of finality to them, but you want to really keep them from being the linchpin of your deck.
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

This sounds like I want at least w in my colour identity then. Maybe add some Truce to reward those doing what I want them to do?

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Colors won't really matter too much. It's more what you do with them, and there's options in most combinations you could think of. I personally think you'll do fine with Goblin/Cat, but it really is up to you what you're comfortable working with. Really it just comes down to what tricks you want to pull to obfuscate things, and what sort of toolbox you run to solve board states.

edit - I guess white does give you access to some blowout tricks like Comeuppance, Harsh Justice, Boros Reckoner and such, but those aren't really political per se, they're just combat aikido.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

The aikido stuff would be more political, actually. You're not making it physically impossible for people to come at you. You're just running tricks that make it risky to try to do so. Will someone try to call your bluff, swing in, and get blown out in response? Who knows! Excitement!

A small assortment of deathtouch rocks that don't just break the board function along similar grounds. Just played a game with my Toggo where I located Basilisk Collar, so I had lethal rock power if desired. I didn't chuck a single rock all game - I just used it as a "don't come at me", and it worked. It kept the 30+ power Skullbriar going elsewhere, and the Brago would actually negotiate with me a little when he wanted to use my life to flicker his stuff.
 
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

So is it political to run howling mine effects, but then in conjunction with kederekt parasite/underworld dreams/spiteful visions? Sort of a "here's something extra...use it wisely, gluttony will kill you."

Or is that too much?

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

20 seconds later, 3drinks has switched commanders to Nekusar and is in the process of adding every on-colour wheel to a new deck draft :P

...in moderation? I'll let more dedicated political folks speak here. Handing out resources is risky business.
 
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
This sounds like I want at least w in my colour identity then. Maybe add some Truce to reward those doing what I want them to do?
What you really want is fog. It's a card that lets you seem vulnerable when you really aren't, and when used politically to protect someone else from an alpha strike, it looks a lot more like Mindslaver than anyone gives it credit for.

Edit: or Darkness, for color identity purposes.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
What you really want is fog. It's a card that lets you seem vulnerable when you really aren't, and when used politically to protect someone else from an alpha strike, it looks a lot more like Mindslaver than anyone gives it credit for.

Edit: or Darkness, for color identity purposes.
Constant Mists ftw. I've won SO many games using that thing politically. You just spam it till the prevalent threat runs out of momentum, let the table clean them up and just live high and mighty on goodwill from the table into perpetuity.
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
So is it political to run howling mine effects, but then in conjunction with kederekt parasite/underworld dreams/spiteful visions? Sort of a "here's something extra...use it wisely, gluttony will kill you."

Or is that too much?
I personally think its a bit much, and I'd struggle to see it as political, but there's no reason not to explore that space. I just wouldn't go as deep as your usual Nekusar, the Mindrazer at any rate. I could be reading it wrong, but I know I personally lack the charisma to sell that as a political benefit. I think the problem is you're giving a pretty spiky gift, so the chances are people will take what you can give until they find a way to take your stuff apart and then whatever alliance you had is dust in the wind because it's pretty overtly evident that if they don't kill you, they die themselves. But dabbling in that area could be of benefit, maybe just don't go all in.

I'm going to be exploring a little of that idea with Blim, Comedic Genius when my cards arrive. Giving away draw stuff that doesn't care who owns it like Font of Mythos, Seizan, Perverter of Truth, and such to mitigate Blim's discard trigger*. The idea being to make people feel less bad about losing their cards in hand. I think when you add damage per draw/discard into the situation it starts to get a bit close to areas people don't tend to like, but you could dip your toes.

*Bear in mind this is entirely untested, it's just....the jank build called to me and I couldn't say no.
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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
3 years ago
20 seconds later, 3drinks has switched commanders to Nekusar and is in the process of adding every on-colour wheel to a new deck draft :P
I'm vaguely worried about this thing too. xD
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
So is it political to run howling mine effects, but then in conjunction with kederekt parasite/underworld dreams/spiteful visions? Sort of a "here's something extra...use it wisely, gluttony will kill you."

Or is that too much?
In my personal experience I've found things like Kederekt Parasite that constantly ping your opponents draw significantly more hate than they should because your opponents are constantly reminded every single turn that you're killing them. It's also a hassle to be constantly readjusting your life total. I'd say the cards you mentioned are pretty politically neutral other than drawing more removal than they really warrant.

Howling Mine tends to help out the most degenerate/rampy deck at the table since they can deploy their hand faster. If those don't really exist (in a much lower powered game) it might garner enough goodwill to be worth it. I personally don't really ever run it, so my recommendation would be deploy with extreme caution.

I think a problem you're struggling with is you look at a card and you think "Is this political?" which isn't the correct question. The correct question is "How can I use this politically?" Mentioning having a W deck for example. Every color has a bunch of political stuff, they're just of different flavors.

Just glancing at Doom Blade and it doesn't seem overly political but it has a lot application. "Don't attack me or I'll Doom Blade your dude." or "If you do X for me I'll Doom Blade Y for you". That kind of stuff. That's why Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith and his kitty are good, they leave a lot of room for forging alliances and working with people. Howling Mine kind of just sits there and might generate some goodwill for you. Kederekt Parasite kind of just sits there and pings people. They don't really give you anything to withhold or offer to your opponents. They just do their thing. That's not a negative comment towards them. Having a fair amount of mostly politically neutral cards is pretty common in a deck. For example, Cultivate is usually an extremely politically neutral card.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

materpillar wrote:
3 years ago
I think a problem you're struggling with is you look at a card and you think "Is this political?" which isn't the correct question. The correct question is "How can I use this politically?"
YES! This is what we've been missing.

This is the crux of it really. If you run cards that have a variety of applications you have widely applicable political tools that can be used for social lubrication. I think that's the big point @3drinks has been missing; a deck is political as the builder/pilot allows it to be. You really just want versatile board state answers, a few ways to affect the players around you one way or another, and a way to win and you have yourself a political deck. That can look any way you want it to, and in any combination of colours.
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Post by FenrirRex » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
This sounds like I want at least w in my colour identity then. Maybe add some Truce to reward those doing what I want them to do?
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
So is it political to run howling mine effects, but then in conjunction with kederekt parasite/underworld dreams/spiteful visions? Sort of a "here's something extra...use it wisely, gluttony will kill you."

Or is that too much?
As has been noted and I've said before, it's all about how you play the cards, rather than the cards themselves. I generally recommend ignoring most, if not all, cards that actually scream "I'm a political card!" because they tend to hand out resources to your opponents and otherwise demand that you, as the deckbuilder, find a way to break the resource parity.

Since you worry about being optimal, you're likely to turn the parity into something that hurts your opponents (I.e. the mentioned Nekusar, the Mindrazer) which won't actually help with your goal here.

As for color, it literally doesn't matter when trying to play politics. You can play a mono black deck as a friendly multiplayer experience with no issue at all with the right approach (and, indeed, a mono deck might be the best approach from a deckbuilding perspective since it limits your options as much as possible).

Going to recap for myself:
1. Politics are ultimately up to the player, not the cards.
2. Any card can have political implications, regardless of color identity.
3. Global effects (be it the meaner Death Pits of Rath or the supposedly kind Howling Mine) can be hard to control the reaction to and force the deck builder to break parity- making them apolitical at best, and politically negative at worst.
4. Politicking involves being willing to be reactive and, potentially, willing to play sub optimally to keep a majority of players happy.
5. Communication is key to determining the "real" board state- your perspective may be wrong as it's missing both the hidden information of your opponent's resources and any other knowledge they possess.

Any other larger lessons we're missing from these threads so far?

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

"everything is a political card - if the user utilizes it in such a way to curry favour or not make all but themselves miserable", would be an accurate way to sum up the past five pages then?

So the problem really isn't my deck......as much as it's me. I'm the problem that needs to be fixed.

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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
"everything is a political card - if the user utilizes it in such a way to curry favour or not make all but themselves miserable", would be an accurate way to sum up the past five pages then?
That's a fairly good rule of thumb, yeah.
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
So the problem really isn't my deck......as much as it's me. I'm the problem that needs to be fixed.
I would not call you a problem that needs to be fixed. That's way way too self-deprecating for my tastes. My intent with all of my responses in this thread has not been to attack you as a person at all. I hope I have not done so.

I certainly wouldn't say you're some broken human being or anything. We all have a million flaws. Being too controlling in a game of magic the gathering is hardly that notable of a vice. I'll go back to one of my firsts posts to you.
materpillar wrote:
3 years ago
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
I've definitely used these exact words. Hating on nonbasics is kinda my gimmick, because of the 4c ramp epidemic we have to-date. Though nowadays I've shifted from MLD to Null Rod effects, not that this seems to help any. I don't even know how to build without Ruination......
You want advice so I'm going to put this as bluntly as possible. This is a bad gimmick find a new one.
I get the feeling that your number one priority while sitting down at a game of magic is to get everything and everyone under your complete control and keep it that way. I think you should try to shift your mentality/philosophy towards having a good time with your opponents even if that results in you losing. Huh, that's a thing I don't know. Do you think you're gracious in defeat? Can you sincerely, in your heart, actually congratulate someone and be happy they beat you?

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

materpillar wrote:
3 years ago
3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
So the problem really isn't my deck......as much as it's me. I'm the problem that needs to be fixed.
I would not call you a problem that needs to be fixed. That's way way too self-deprecating for my tastes. My intent with all of my responses in this thread has not been to attack you as a person at all. I hope I have not done so.
Not like that, I mean the problem is the way I play is the problem.
materpillar wrote:
3 years ago
I get the feeling that your number one priority while sitting down at a game of magic is to get everything and everyone under your complete control and keep it that way. I think you should try to shift your mentality/philosophy towards having a good time with your opponents even if that results in you losing. Huh, that's a thing I don't know. Do you think you're gracious in defeat? Can you sincerely, in your heart, actually congratulate someone and be happy they beat you?
I think I am. If I play hard and you play hard, then may the best player win. I don't have any issues if I got outplayed mechanically. Congrats, you win we'll shake hands and go for round two. I take issue with chaos cards (pointless crap like grip of chaos or scramble verse), where people play randomly with no rhyme or reason to why they'd do something. It takes away from the sanctity of the game. Or those that make plays that overtly decide a winner (not themselves), because kingmaking makes the whole game we played up to that point worthless. It doesn't matter.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
"everything is a political card - if the user utilizes it in such a way to curry favour or not make all but themselves miserable", would be an accurate way to sum up the past five pages then?

So the problem really isn't my deck......as much as it's me. I'm the problem that needs to be fixed.
You're not a problem, man. Honestly speaking while I grasp the concepts of playing politically well enough its not easy to put into practice, abd i struggle myself sometimes. Just see it as seeing the same cards you've always known and realizing there's different angles to them over and above their face values.
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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
I think I am. If I play hard and you play hard, then may the best player win. I don't have any issues if I got outplayed mechanically. Congrats, you win we'll shake hands and go for round two. I take issue with chaos cards (pointless crap like grip of chaos or scramble verse), where people play randomly with no rhyme or reason to why they'd do something. It takes away from the sanctity of the game. Or those that make plays that overtly decide a winner (not themselves), because kingmaking makes the whole game we played up to that point worthless. It doesn't matter.
I think you should go play some Risk for a while. If you play hard out the gate in Risk, you lose every time. You overextend your resources, push through whoever is in your way, and then suddenly you're both soft targets for player 3. You have to sit back and makes measured plays and give opponents some give and take to stand a chance there. 4-player EDH is not so different, if you make yourself a threat and attack people's resources early, it can easily make you and someone else weak targets later.

In multiplayer politics, playing hard is often kingmaking.
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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

3drinks wrote:
3 years ago
"everything is a political card - if the user utilizes it in such a way to curry favour or not make all but themselves miserable", would be an accurate way to sum up the past five pages then?

So the problem really isn't my deck......as much as it's me. I'm the problem that needs to be fixed.
You're not alone man, and not a problem. For all my own posts across your threads, I also struggle with it.

As an illustrative example, there was a game once upon a time where my wife had Sol Ring in the opener...and didn't cast it. She mentioned it later, after she had won and I had lost. I was baffled - why would you have the best opening hand card, and NOT cast it?

"Because all it would have done is make me a target"

When asked to expound, she noted that while, sure, yeah, theoretically it would have enabled a turn 2 commander she had no other follow-through in her hand, and a turn 3 or 4 Sol Ring + Commander was still going to be a solid play if that ended up being what she drew to. But by then, she'd have had a few more draw phases to see the shape of her hand, and a few more turns to see if anyone else screamed out of the gates with Sol Ring into Signet into nonsense or not.

In this same game, she also Demonic Tutor for Cabal Coffers even though she could have insta-killed a threat with Sorin Markov or broken everyone's backs with Grave Pact or Sword of Feast and Famine, for the same reason - she could have made a more powerful play right then, and maybe killed someone, but it would have made her the archenemy. Coffers was still very powerful, especially in our "thou shalt not touch my mana" meta, but she traded the immediate lethal flash for the longer term play. She knew that Coffers (especially without an Urborg and with a bunch of nonbasics) would look "safe" but pay off, wheras she might get an explosive turn or two off of everything else before she died. In particular, Coffers was fun for her without being unfun for everyone else, the way that Pact (when she controlled a Bloodghast + sac outlet) would not have been.

I can't do that. I just don't run tutors, because if I did I would tutor for the scariest card every time, and I'd make everyone else react to me, and then I'd die. I slam turn 1 Sol Ring with no plan because it feels fun and powerful. In my most extreme cases, I dredge my entire library with Underrealm Lich + The Gitrog Monster and then die, because what felt FUN and POWERFUL right then felt more important than what would actually win the game.

The advice to play Risk is a good one, to help exemplify how the Most Powerful Play this second isn't actually the Objectively Best Play for your long-term victory prospects.

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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

So, alright, why is Crackling Doom a good multiplayer card then? At instant speed you take away everyone's best card and it's completely asymmetrical. Isn't this political suicide?

Tokens are generally favoured right? What if I went to Jirina Kudro with some Nim Deathmantle and dread return|tsp lines? Drop some Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite as the finish? Humans are a pretty good tribe with enough reach to carry you through a game but without screaming answer us like you would an Urza, Lord High Artificer.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I wouldn't say Cracking Doom is a good - or bad - multiplayer card. It's pretty neutral. It's hard for an instant or sorcery to be "political suicide" because once it's happened, it's over. Hurting you or your stuff won't undo the damage - and your goal, politically, is to avoid providing your opponents with motivation to hurt you. Even powerful salt-score stuff like time magic or cyc rift - if the dust clears and you're still not the threat, then there's not really any downside politically (ofc ymmv, some people will beat up on someone who plays cards they don't like, or they might assume that more will be coming in the future - theory doesn't always match reality).

That said, a more targeted removal spell can be significantly more political. Doom is gonna happen to everyone (else), so aside from maybe not playing a strong high-power creature there's usually not a ton your opponents can do about it. You could say "attack me and I'll doom you", but that's not an effective threat because they know they're gonna get doomed eventually anyway (unless they think they'll be able to play around it better later), plus they might benefit from the other players getting doomed. If you say "attack me and I'll Terminate you", now they've got a lot better motivation not to test you: it's not inevitable that they'll get terminated, because you could target someone else, and if you do follow through, it's pure downside for them since their opponents won't be losing anything.

Overall I think doom is more of a blunt weapon, and political techniques favor more surgical precision to manage the board state and keep the flow of the game going in the direction that favors you. Not a bad card, but I think you're trying to focus on political play I'd tend towards something more precise.
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Rumpy5897
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

I think you should stay with Rakdos Toggo, get some games in on that, see how it goes, how the reception is. Less theorycrafting, more practical experience. You're a few swaps off a pretty okay deck that would allow you the power of moderate interaction without drawing too much ire.

You remind me of me, and how my decks would tend to go within my group. Toss together a draft, play it. Group gives the deck an okay. Start doubling down on what works, moving away from how the initial build ran in the name of optimality. Outscale group, deck becomes disliked, deck dies. You're kind of going through similar motions, except in accelerated pace - you come up with a stub of an idea, you explore it a bit, you find a vaguely lock'y way to reliably win, you get pushback, you find a new stub, rinse, repeat. This is nothing against you, mind you - I was this way for years, and killed many a deck that I could have just nerfed a bit instead. Because I have to take the optimal build route, right? It also took a few tries to get this suboptimal take working, as a few decks just felt off after I tried to defang them. This is a nontrivial process, and one I greatly commend you for embarking on, and I'm happy to share various pointers, unsolicited advice etc. on your way :P

On those grounds, I'd recommend against Constant Mists. The card showed up in my group and was absolutely miserable to play against. Combine it with a competent land engine and the only way to stop it is to counter it. As for using this sort of stuff politically rather than as another Pariah-like lock, this veers dangerously close to wilful suboptimality that I brought up in the main forum thread and met with severe blowback for. If you show Mists, then suddenly the whole table needs to account for that and factor their (in)ability to deal with it into their threat assessment and game plan. You don't "just" fog the player in the lead with it, it warps how the rest of the game will play out by existing.
 
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

I don't have live games right now with no LGS to go to. So I'm trying to get it right in one shot and purchase that, without ending up with too many extraneous cards without a home. That's why I'm being so hands on with my edits.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Overall I think doom is more of a blunt weapon, and political techniques favor more surgical precision to manage the board state and keep the flow of the game going in the direction that favors you. Not a bad card, but I think you're trying to focus on political play I'd tend towards something more precise.
The nice aspect about Crackling Doom (and board wipe type effects in general) politically, is they can let you trim down a player's board without necessarily getting blamed for it. If crackling doom is the available answer to a must kill threat, they other players aren't necessarily going to hold it against you when they lose something to collateral damage.

Ideally, I'd prefer to have both the surgical and blunt instruments available so I could measure myself whether other players' resources are acting in my benefit or not.
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Post by 3drinks » 3 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
3 years ago
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Overall I think doom is more of a blunt weapon, and political techniques favor more surgical precision to manage the board state and keep the flow of the game going in the direction that favors you. Not a bad card, but I think you're trying to focus on political play I'd tend towards something more precise.
The nice aspect about Crackling Doom (and board wipe type effects in general) politically, is they can let you trim down a player's board without necessarily getting blamed for it. If crackling doom is the available answer to a must kill threat, they other players aren't necessarily going to hold it against you when they lose something to collateral damage.

Ideally, I'd prefer to have both the surgical and blunt instruments available so I could measure myself whether other players' resources are acting in my benefit or not.
Is this why flesh bag variants are more popular and common in multiplayer lists than Shriekmaw effects?

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