Purphoros, Bronze Blooded - The Creature Cannon

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
So, I don't want to belabor the point beyond this post since, 1) it's not my thread nor is it the purpose of the thread and 2) we're talking about fractions of win percentage points with this, but I find it fascinating. I'll spoiler it as a courtesy and an attempt to not hijack too much:
SPOILER
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toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
As far as bauble vs fellwar goes, I fall on the side of fellwar - costing 1 functionally and providing useful resource right away is more helpful than the speed at which bauble operates, which isn't amazing.
Well, they both give you the same thing in one regard, which is an additional mana onto your total mana production the following turn, but at a different cost right now. This really comes down to an ROI calculation and the longevity/resiliency of the investment. I disagree that Fellwar Stone (or any 2cmc rock that taps for 1 in a monocolored deck) provides a useful resource right away by itself. It's -1 mana the turn you play it. Now, it gives you ROI in terms of mana faster than Wayfarer's Bauble, which is -3 mana before it starts paying dividends, because Fellwar costs one less and can create mana right away unlike the tapped land from bauble:

Fellwar Stone hits 100% mana ROI the 3rd turn after you play it:
SPOILER
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- Turn X play stone, tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+1 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+2 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+3 tap for 1 mana, 100% ROI achieved
Wayfarer's Bauble hits 100% mana ROI the 6th turn after you crack it and fetch the land:
SPOILER
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- Turn X crack the bauble, put the land in tapped
- Turn X+1 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+2 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+3 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+4 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+5 tap for 1 mana
- Turn X+6 tap for 1 mana, 100% ROI achieved
Now, I'm guessing you aren't explicitly doing all this (admittedly simple) math out in your head; it's just intuitively obvious that the bauble is "slower" in this regard. But here's the point that I think actually matters: you aren't playing either of these cards for the benefit they give you on the turn you play them (there is none in this deck that I see right off hand) nor are you playing them to hit some mathematical threshold of mana ROI efficiency. You are playing them because they can get you to 5 mana prior to turn 5, or get you to some multiple of a turn sooner. I find it a tough sell to say that Fellwar does that better than Bauble, or at least significantly "better" enough that the added layer of vulnerability is worthwhile.

However, I find it a very easy sell to say that Harmonic Sliver, Austere Command, Trygon Predator, Vandalblast, Disenchant and a zillion others exist and fill this format. It's all fun and games until the Roon of the Hidden Realm player starts a Deadeye Navigator/Reclamation Sage bouncefest. Go redo the above ROI calculations on bauble vs stone after a Cyclonic Rift has put you back to 5 mana instead of 6 AND you have to redeploy Purph. I mean, even this list runs Steel Hellkite and Meteor Golem and can ruin the rock enthusiast's day. Cards don't live in a vacuum.

I think some of the same issues exist for Everflowing Chalice. While you do have the ability to pull some nonsense in the late game like multi-kick for with still available to still get in two activations this turn and have a huge follow up turn (if it makes it around the table), I know many players would certainly take advantage of the opportunity to Negate that in a hurry, or time walk you with a Krosan Grip before you can tap it and recoup half the mana you just spent.

If your meta has MLD, this is a different conversation as Dirk pointed out. Assuming that isn't the case for your meta and with the strength of rituals like Irencrag Feat and Seething Song for ramping out Purph and getting you multiple activations sooner, I would argue that you should be leaning away from most rocks except for the truly great ones and maybe even toss in Shatterstorm or Subterranean Tremors to slingshot your way ahead of the table on mana.

TL;DR - After the stellar ramp options of Sol Ring/rituals/Solemn Simulacrum/Coalition Relic in this deck, for my money I would want that additional basic mountain on the table from Wayfarer's Bauble. It's definitely at it's best turns 1-3, but even apart from that I think it gives a better chance for you to both get to the next multiple of for Sneak Attacks and STAY there.
Oh, don't feel like this is derailing; I prefer to use my threads as think tanks rather than a place where I'm right and we talk about what I wanna talk about - that's how you end up with a bad deck or cards in the build for all the wrong reasons.

Your logic here is fairly reasonable. I'm not really interested in ROI long term, the rocks/ramp package here is purely here to get me to the point of casting Purph. I've seen very little rock destruction thus far, but then it's a sensible assumption while facing down this deck that destroying my rocks would be of benefit.

Ultimately, I'm a little torn on where I go for ramp for the deck. Low to the ground rocks have been fine so far, but I can concede that you do have a point around rocks being fragile. I've even considered the possibility that Walking Atlas could be reasonable here. I think what's causing my forehead to wrinkle is that the options are really quite slim and the min/max advantage of one over another is in a lot of cases infinitesimal, or the premium options are just out of reach of me ever owning.
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DirkGently
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
@benjameenbear both would be stellar adds obviously. I think they're almost certainly outside of my budget at present even with upcoming reprints (lets be honest, neither one is going to drop THAT much, especially in a reprint set designed for whales). You probably could still run Eldrazi too just for the annihilate effect, but it does seem a bit lamentable to miss the cast triggers. Perhaps something like It That Betrays would make a nice addition.
Missing cast triggers isn't an issue since they are neither red nor artifact creatures and thus cannot normally be put into play with Purphoros.

Otherwise yeah any decent list would have at least a half-dozen 'drazi.
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
TL;DR - After the stellar ramp options of Sol Ring/rituals/Solemn Simulacrum/Coalition Relic in this deck, for my money I would want that additional basic mountain on the table from Wayfarer's Bauble. It's definitely at it's best turns 1-3, but even apart from that I think it gives a better chance for you to both get to the next multiple of for Sneak Attacks and STAY there.
The MLD angle is a minor one and not my main thrust. Consider it if it's relevant to you, but that's not the primary reason to run rocks over slower land ramp. The main reason is that "STAYING there" isn't really that important for this deck. Once Purphoros is out, he almost always stays out, and usually you're only sneaking in one creature per turn, two if you've got a good value play or are trying to win the game, and three very seldom. In that world, it doesn't make a lot of sense to worry about long-term durability of your ramp pieces, and it's more important to consider situations where having fellwar instead of something slower lets you double-spell on your way to casting purphoros, or playing fellwar lets you activate purphoros the same turn. It's just a lot easier to fit in something that costs 1 mana instead of 3.

Are there situations where you can be punished for it? Sure, but even if you throw out a hundred scenarios, given the variety within commanders that's still a drop in the bucket. If your meta is particularly hostile to mana rocks then ofc you might consider tailoring your deck to match, but for all the metas I've played in, I'd happily accept the risk for the efficiency.

Btw Krosan Grip has no special interaction with mana rocks, you can tap them in response, float the mana, and then activate purphoros.

EDIT: also imo solemn sucks here. Getting from 4 to 5 doesn't need ramp, it just needs playing a land. I wouldn't bother personally.
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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Missing cast triggers isn't an issue since they are neither red nor artifact creatures and thus cannot normally be put into play with Purphoros.

Otherwise yeah any decent list would have at least a half-dozen 'drazi.
I always forget that about them. My bad.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
EDIT: also imo solemn sucks here. Getting from 4 to 5 doesn't need ramp, it just needs playing a land. I wouldn't bother personally.
Well, yeah, I get why you'd say that. I've had pretty good return from it of late nonetheless early game, and once Purph is in play. It makes 2r a ramp/cantrip, and it's pretty nice to Conjurer's Closet or clone. Otherwise early game I'm generally pretty happy to have a chump blocker - I've found it pretty common once people have played the deck to want to get damage in and take me out ASAP.

Whether or not that's convincing to you I probably don't have the other options available to replace it with anything superior for ramp at present anyway.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Well, yeah, I get why you'd say that. I've had pretty good return from it of late nonetheless early game, and once Purph is in play. It makes 2r a ramp/cantrip, and it's pretty nice to Conjurer's Closet or clone. Otherwise early game I'm generally pretty happy to have a chump blocker - I've found it pretty common once people have played the deck to want to get damage in and take me out ASAP.

Whether or not that's convincing to you I probably don't have the other options available to replace it with anything superior for ramp at present anyway.
If you like it keep it in, but I wouldn't really call it "ramp" in the context of this deck given that we're almost 100% to play purphoros on 5. If you replaced it with a basic mountain it'd have the same effect most of the time - you're basically paying 4 for the cantrip and the chump block (also if you topdeck it when you need a 5th land drop it's pretty awful).
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Once Purphoros is out, he almost always stays out, and usually you're only sneaking in one creature per turn, two if you've got a good value play or are trying to win the game, and three very seldom. In that world, it doesn't make a lot of sense to worry about long-term durability of your ramp pieces, and it's more important to consider situations where having fellwar instead of something slower lets you double-spell on your way to casting purphoros, or playing fellwar lets you activate purphoros the same turn. It's just a lot easier to fit in something that costs 1 mana instead of 3.
Ok, this is fair if ramping into Purph is the absolute #1 thing you care about. I guess what I don't see (having not piloted Purph 2.0 myself) is why you wouldn't want 2+ activations a turn aside from running out of cards in hand, which is why you look to bounce creatures or refill your hand, right? My argument for bauble is factoring in the consideration that while getting to 5 quicker is great, so is getting to 6, 9, and 12 then staying there without going back down.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Btw Krosan Grip has no special interaction with mana rocks, you can tap them in response, float the mana, and then activate purphoros.
Touche. Of course split second wouldn't affect tapping rocks/lands. Brain fart.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
EDIT: also imo solemn sucks here. Getting from 4 to 5 doesn't need ramp, it just needs playing a land. I wouldn't bother personally.
Again, I think this will depend on the build. If someone is focusing more on multiple activations per turn, the additional land is very valuable. But a 1 activation/turn gameplan would make solemn pretty meh, I agree.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Well, yeah, I get why you'd say that. I've had pretty good return from it of late nonetheless early game, and once Purph is in play. It makes 2r a ramp/cantrip, and it's pretty nice to Conjurer's Closet or clone. Otherwise early game I'm generally pretty happy to have a chump blocker - I've found it pretty common once people have played the deck to want to get damage in and take me out ASAP.

Whether or not that's convincing to you I probably don't have the other options available to replace it with anything superior for ramp at present anyway.
If you like it keep it in, but I wouldn't really call it "ramp" in the context of this deck given that we're almost 100% to play purphoros on 5. If you replaced it with a basic mountain it'd have the same effect most of the time - you're basically paying 4 for the cantrip and the chump block (also if you topdeck it when you need a 5th land drop it's pretty awful).
I wouldn't say I consider it ramp as such. I sort of see it as a way to see more actual cards in the deck. The less lands there are in the deck, the more likely I am to draw something relevant. I use it the same way in my white build, although to be fair it probably is more relevant there. Ultimately I guess if it goes it'd probably be replaced with a rock of some kind. By preference, Dockside Extortionist would be ideal, but it's just so stupidly priced at the moment.
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Ok, this is fair if ramping into Purph is the absolute #1 thing you care about. I guess what I don't see (having not piloted Purph 2.0 myself) is why you wouldn't want 2+ activations a turn aside from running out of cards in hand, which is why you look to bounce creatures or refill your hand, right? My argument for bauble is factoring in the consideration that while getting to 5 quicker is great, so is getting to 6, 9, and 12 then staying there without going back down.
Personally I like the option of multiple activations, as that's usually how I end up winning, but the concern definitely is ending up topdecking. I'm quite happy to aim for this nonetheless, as if I can get lands out of my deck I'm more likely to hit value in hand.
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Too much other synergy with solemn to skip it imho. Lots of times it's not right to just plop your fats out. Gotta have some value dudes. And solemn does, in a pinch, bridge you from 4-5, which while not ideal is a pretty good failure mode.

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
getting to 6, 9, and 12 then staying there without going back down.
It's hard for me to imagine getting to 12 ever mattering. Getting to 9 is almost always unnecessary.
Again, I think this will depend on the build. If someone is focusing more on multiple activations per turn, the additional land is very valuable. But a 1 activation/turn gameplan would make solemn pretty meh, I agree.
If you're aiming for 2 per turn, it still doesn't do much. If you've got 4 mana, just playing a land next turn lets you play purph, then play another on the next turn lets you double activate, so the only time solemn would matter is if the cantrip drew you the 6th land. The curve here just doesn't fit with solemn imo.
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
I wouldn't say I consider it ramp as such. I sort of see it as a way to see more actual cards in the deck. The less lands there are in the deck, the more likely I am to draw something relevant. I use it the same way in my white build, although to be fair it probably is more relevant there. Ultimately I guess if it goes it'd probably be replaced with a rock of some kind. By preference, Dockside Extortionist would be ideal, but it's just so stupidly priced at the moment.
Again, I wouldn't consider it ramp. If I was looking for a 1:1 replacement, it'd be with Mountain since it does the same thing but (usually) better. If you wanted to run dockside I'd probably replace something else.

If you want ramp that matters plus card draw, I'd look at something like Bonder's Ornament or Commander's Sphere since they actually speed up your clock by a turn.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
If you're aiming for 2 per turn, it still doesn't do much. If you've got 4 mana, just playing a land next turn lets you play purph, then play another on the next turn lets you double activate, so the only time solemn would matter is if the cantrip drew you the 6th land. The curve here just doesn't fit with solemn imo.
I dunno. Ideally you would only ever use Purph proactively, but you don't get ahead and stay ahead every game. Hitting Purph on 3 with seething song or similar then stumbling on lands is a problem solemn helps solve, or it flashes in and chumps for value. I don't think playing to the best case scenario with dragons galore and little or no utility is a great idea. Your points are totally valid though.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Solemn is obviously pretty weak compared to other choices to purph into play - I mean, he's a 4-drop in a land of 8-drops. But he pulls double duty by also being a mountain sometimes when getting the mana to play purphoros. So the argument is that the flexibility of being both a mountain and a mediocre purphoros fling is worth his weakness in both categories.

So when I'm looking at a 5 cmc commander that wants to hit ASAP, very rarely needs to be recast, and doesn't care TOO much about how much mana is sitting around afterward, my plan usually looks like this:

Plan A: get some unfair fast mana and play Purphoros on T2-3.
Plan B: hit a 2-3 drop rock and play Purphoros on T4.
Plan C: Turn 5, oof.
Plan D: oops all fatties.

So the question is, how often is solemn equivalent to a mountain in these situations?

In plan A, it depends on the rock. If it's T1 sol ring, T2 solemn, turn 3 purph then it's equivalent, same for crypt although ideally you'd have a 2-3 drop rock to play purph T2 in which case it's not equivalent. If it's mana vault, grim monolith, or seething song then it's significantly worse than a mountain.

In plan B, it also depends on the rock. With a 2-drop rock like fellwar, solemn works fine. With a 3-drop rock, it's pretty atrocious. When I see a hand with "land land worn powerstone solemn", I see a deck that needed to think harder about its plan.

Plan C and D it's the same as a mountain.

As far as the second question - how useful is it compared to some other big fatty? - personally I think the answer is "really very quite weak", and thus would consider the "mountain" mode the primary mode of the card.

So whether he justifies a spot I'd say depends on your other rocks. If you're running a bunch of 2s and no 3s (and few fast mana outside of sol ring), he might be fine. If you're running some 3s though - like, for example, Wayfarer's Bauble - I'd be much less inclined to consider him a viable option.
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Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

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Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
So whether he justifies a spot I'd say depends on your other rocks. If you're running a bunch of 2s and no 3s (and few fast mana outside of sol ring), he might be fine. If you're running some 3s though - like, for example, Wayfarer's Bauble - I'd be much less inclined to consider him a viable option.
For the purposes of my build, what you're describing here is my scenario. I won't ever have Mana Crypt or Grim Monolith, don't have Lotus Petal, so the best I can do for super quick rocks at present is Arcane Signet and *maybe* Thought Vessel, maybe. I actually don't think I've ever managed T2 Purph, although the possibility does exist with Seething Song. That being said, if I play T1 Sol Ring, T2 Seething Song into Purph, I'm not 100% sure that's the right play anyway as even if I have a land drop next turn whatever I drop definitely goes at end of turn with no chance to rescue it. There's a chance it's the right play, but not a guarantee.

I can totally see that having access to the top tier of rocks in the format really does negate any need for the robot, though.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Everything that you say is true, but other players are interacting with you in game. Purph has a pretty telegraphed gameplan, and you need some "glue" and support cards for when the dream doesn't come true. I for one run stuff like Forsake the Worldly and Chaos Warp in part because the theros gods are popular and I think every deck needs a backup to the commander being in play all the time.

I'm picking up what you're putting down, I just think there's a difference of perspective. Your points are totally valid if min/maxing in a relatively competitive meta, but I think in an average case LGS pod without fast mana apart from Sol Ring it's often a mistake to be so proactive with your gameplan that you have no backup. Having 6 mana available, Purph in the command zone with tax, and a grip of 7-8 drops is not fun.
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Post by weltkrieg » 3 years ago

I do like the looks of the purphoros deck. While I don't have much to add to the mana rock debate, I would point out that sometimes purphoros plays like a value deck (for example, feldon of the third path or kiki jiki is drawn) rather than beatsticks-R-us. In that case, solemn simulacrum is added delight in my opinion. I would note that I do have access to all of the tier 0 mana rocks and still run solemn simulacrum, myriad landscape, wayfarer's bauble, and burnished hart for reasons noted below.

One thing I do disagree with is the land base. I can see no earthly reason to run fetch lands (terramorphic expanse et al) or cycling lands in a mono colored deck. I constantly hear about how great the cycling lands are in the late game, but in the early game they are better as mountains so they don't slow you down. In particular, there is no engine to make use of either (rings of bright hearth, sensei's divining top, crucible of worlds..none) as a card advantage engine. In all of these cases, mountain is a better and more useful draw early game.

Maybe you don't have one, but I think it's a shame there is no valakut, the molten pinnacle in the deck. It's a lot of value whenever I draw it, etb tapped be damned!

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

weltkrieg wrote:
3 years ago
One thing I do disagree with is the land base. I can see no earthly reason to run fetch lands (terramorphic expanse et al) or cycling lands in a mono colored deck. I constantly hear about how great the cycling lands are in the late game, but in the early game they are better as mountains so they don't slow you down. In particular, there is no engine to make use of either (rings of bright hearth, sensei's divining top, crucible of worlds..none) as a card advantage engine. In all of these cases, mountain is a better and more useful draw early game.

Maybe you don't have one, but I think it's a shame there is no valakut, the molten pinnacle in the deck. It's a lot of value whenever I draw it, etb tapped be damned!
Yep, don't have a copy, would be a great addition. It's on my list of 'things to look out for'. None of my LGSes have a copy anyway, and I guess it's probably pretty expensive on account of modern usage, so I'd probably want a reprint to hopefully drop the price.

The cycling lands, yeah, they're really just in the deck for easily being able to turn them into non-lands late game. They could go, I have Tectonic Reformation, which is as cheap as the cycling is ever likely to get here.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Everything that you say is true, but other players are interacting with you in game. Purph has a pretty telegraphed gameplan, and you need some "glue" and support cards for when the dream doesn't come true. I for one run stuff like Forsake the Worldly and Chaos Warp in part because the theros gods are popular and I think every deck needs a backup to the commander being in play all the time.

I'm picking up what you're putting down, I just think there's a difference of perspective. Your points are totally valid if min/maxing in a relatively competitive meta, but I think in an average case LGS pod without fast mana apart from Sol Ring it's often a mistake to be so proactive with your gameplan that you have no backup. Having 6 mana available, Purph in the command zone with tax, and a grip of 7-8 drops is not fun.
-I wouldn't call sad robot a backup plan. He doesn't do anything significant. Tbh he barely does anything at all without blink. If you want a backup plan run Mirage Mirror or even Footfall Crater or Sneak Attack or something. Or a wheel to refill if you're stuck. Sad bot isn't a plan, he's grease to an existing plan, and in this case he's bad grease.

-I don't like arguments in the form of "if x extremely niche card gets played, you're stuck!" That's fine, sometimes you just lose, cest la vie. That said, recasting purph in a deck with almost 50% mana generation is pretty easy, and if worst case scenario happens and he's Nevermored, casting fat creatures in a deck with ramp isn't the worst backup. But in my experience recasting purph has never been necessary. If that's your genuine concern, though, then command beacon fulfills that goal far more efficiently (I still wouldn't bother though tbh).

-if you want to run sad bot to intentionally weaken the deck and match power level, then no further explanation is necessary. But if you're going to claim it's actually correct then I'm gonna have to push back on that one.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

While I definitely don't disagree that the robot is suboptimal...
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
Tbh he barely does anything at all without blink.
I mean, I run Conjurer's Closet, Panharmonicon, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Flamerush Rider, Feldon of the Third Path, Cauldron of Souls, Warstorm Surge, all of which can get further value from him. I won't pretend that any of these are ever an optimal play over spamming other ETB triggers, but it's certainly not nothing. And given that I'm currently unable to really optimise my mana resources, it's good enough for me, for now.
DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
-if you want to run sad bot to intentionally weaken the deck and match power level, then no further explanation is necessary. But if you're going to claim it's actually correct then I'm gonna have to push back on that one.
I won't say it's intentional, and in a perfect world for me it probably doesn't belong here. Nonetheless, it's staying until I can track down other options. Tbh I don't think it's as easy as Solemn Simulacrum>Mountain; every creature I pull out drops the possibility of drawing into a creature, and they are the ammunition of the deck, so I want the count as high as I can get it.
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

I guess at this point I'm talking mostly from the perspective of my own list, which is a bit different. Although imo if you want to cut down on non-ammunition cards, I'd cut:

Chandra, Flamecaller - doesn't really have any synergy I can see.
Tectonic Reformation - seems slow, run more utility lands or draw if flooding is an issue imo.
Underworld Breach - mentioned already.
Fires of Invention - so many of the cards are expensive and nonland ramp is most of what we have, so this seems unsynergistic although I get what you're going for with purphoros' activated ability.
Irencrag Feat - I don't see this making enough sense in the general ramp plan.
Thrill of Possibility - meh.
Basilisk Collar - it's great with a few creatures, but it does nothing major with most of them so I'd probably cut it.
Fanatic of Mogis - creature, but too low impact imo.
Ancestral Statue - mentioned already.
Treasonous Ogre - doesn't seem useful enough to me, it doesn't ramp us in the right spots imo.

As far as cards to add, the new mythic dragon is obviously pretty auto-includy. The damage tripler also seems like a strong choice. Red really got the goods this set.

Oh and if you've got a Gamble, definitely add it.

Oh, and Heartless Hidetsugu is probably the scariest creature in the deck. But might be too mean :P

And I do genuinely think command sphere and bonders ornament are a legit good choice if you want a real ramp card that can also turn into value if you run out of juice.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
I guess at this point I'm talking mostly from the perspective of my own list, which is a bit different. Although imo if you want to cut down on non-ammunition cards, I'd cut:

Chandra, Flamecaller - doesn't really have any synergy I can see.
Tectonic Reformation - seems slow, run more utility lands or draw if flooding is an issue imo.
Underworld Breach - mentioned already.
Fires of Invention - so many of the cards are expensive and nonland ramp is most of what we have, so this seems unsynergistic although I get what you're going for with purphoros' activated ability.
Irencrag Feat - I don't see this making enough sense in the general ramp plan.
Thrill of Possibility - meh.
Basilisk Collar - it's great with a few creatures, but it does nothing major with most of them so I'd probably cut it.
Fanatic of Mogis - creature, but too low impact imo.
Ancestral Statue - mentioned already.
Treasonous Ogre - doesn't seem useful enough to me, it doesn't ramp us in the right spots imo.

As far as cards to add, the new mythic dragon is obviously pretty auto-includy. The damage tripler also seems like a strong choice. Red really got the goods this set.

Oh and if you've got a Gamble, definitely add it.

Oh, and Heartless Hidetsugu is probably the scariest creature in the deck. But might be too mean :P

And I do genuinely think command sphere and bonders ornament are a legit good choice if you want a real ramp card that can also turn into value if you run out of juice.
Yeah I think we're just approaching the format from different perspectives; you're an OG player with a reasonable supply of reserved list/high end cardboard, and due to a few factors those are things I'll never have. It's just that much harder for me to fill a deck with golden picks. I'm content with what I can do, but deck building tends to be a slow burn for me. I generally need to chip away at it as LGS stocks and funds allow.

Agree with a lot of your suggested cuts, but there are some I'll stick up for. Tectonic Reformation has been really great for filtering at a pretty low cost. Fires of Invention has been the sort of card if I can drop I win. Generally it functionally suits as a mana doubler but better. If I have 6 lands in play I get 12 mana worth of fat and THEN I get to sneak stuff in. It stretches a long way. It seems limiting, and I was skeptical, but it really has been pretty excellent. And lastly Fanatic of Mogis has won games almost every time I've played it. Clearly it helps having damage multiplication and a decent board, but it's remarkably easy to drop some stuff with pips via sneak, drop this, clone it or double its ETB and either KO everyone or pretty close to it.

Terror of the Peaks and Fiery Emancipation are both on their way and should make it in the deck within the week, and Gamble is already in here. I'm definitely on the lookout for Heartless Hidetsugu, I just don't want to pay $40 for the foil my LGS has in stock.

Generally I've seen Commander's Sphere and Bonder's Ornament as pretty lame. 3 for 1 is nothing spectacular. I guess cantripping is nice though.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Well I've had a bit more game play in, and the deck has performed really well. There's been a couple of grindy games where I couldn't close things out early but still won, and a barnstorming win at a table of 3 today.

Today was nuts. Playing against Breya, Etherium Shaper and Alela, Artful Provocateur, I kept a hand of 5 with 2 lands, Solemn Simulacrum, Fellwar Stone and Molten Primordial. Hit my land drops and robot and dropped commander turn 4, drawing into Magus of the Wheel.

Next turn I sneak Molten Primordial, borrowing Breya, Etherium Shaper and Shambling Suit. I swing with them all and everyone wants their stuff to survive so they take the damage. Then I sac Breya, Etherium Shaper and the suit with Breya's ability to ping someone for 3.

Next turn I draw into Drakuseth, Maw of Flames, sneak Magus of the Wheel and the former and swing, destroying Breya, Etherium Shaper again, as well as Alela, Artful Provocateur, and at this point both opponents scooped.

I guess it was kinda mean, but it was pretty awesome too. Drakuseth, Maw of Flames is pretty excellent and the deck just got on a great roll with the right pieces coming down at the perfect time.

As well as this, I've got a list of cards that have arrived and I'm adding in shortly, once I have spare time to pick the deck up again:
All of which seem decent additions. Zealous Conscripts I'm reluctant to add for combo reasons, but I have very few ways to get Kiki and Conscripts at the same time, so I'm not overly worried. Skullclamp seems obvious enough that I'm a little embarrassed I hadn't thought of it yet. It probably matters early game where 1 is more important for sneaking, but possibly makes a decent addition for later into the game where every bit of card draw helps a lot.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Got some time alone and got to make some tweaks:


So pretty much straight upgrades. The cheap fetches really didn't need to be here, and I'll probably get more utility in here shortly as credit allows. Blasphemous is obviously pretty stellar, so happy with that in here. Clamp seems quite sensible; our creatures standardly die, so why not make the most of it and keep my hand a little more full? Signet is easy resource, despite being a little wasted on a mono coloured commander. Terror is seriously aptly named. The card is straight fire, and my game play with it has been devastating. Conscripts is a nice theft option, and I guess gives me a combo if I really need to end the game, and Emancipation is just obscene - it makes Brash Taunter a dedicated win condition, too - fight one of my own creatures with it, it deals triple damage to Taunter - Taunter bounces triple that (already tripled) damage to opponents face, profit.

The removals are relatively obvious in most cases. The fetches were stupid. Breach was just too stretched to work here. Statue has been ok, but not stellar and it's a bit of a stretch making it do enough work to stay. Ogre has been fine if not spectacular, and tends to be pretty suicidal in a deck with few ways to recover life. Flayer has relatively few angles to get value from. Thrill is fine, but inferior to Clamp for incremental draw anyway, and Feat has been fine if a little restrictive, so it seemed reasonable to remove it for something just better.

Happy with the additions at present, and there's probably more to be made. I've got my eye on a few pieces to add and a few to remove, but there's no rush,
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

@toctheyounger I played some games with my own Purphoros, BB deck recently, and want to make some recommendations.

Flameshadow Conjuring: It's real. It's so real. I think it's probably better than Panharmonicon because it doubles bodies (and also the copy has the same static abilities), too, which can be relevant for devotion (also just having more bodies is hella tight).

Fiendish Duo: The star of the Game Night 2020 2019 product (IMHO), I ran it because I didn't own an Angrath's Marauders. Fiendish Duo is much more exciting than I expected; the 5/5 first strike body for 4RR (if you hardcast it) is really decent, and the damage doubling -- while only against players -- doesn't require the source to be yours. So, if a third party attacks a threatening player, Purphoros can push this guy out to double the damage the player takes. Also, the quadrupling of damage with Flameshadow Conjuring is wild.
Last edited by Sinis 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
@toctheyounger I played some games with my own Purphoros, BB deck recently, and want to make some recommendations.

Flameshadow Conjuring: It's real. It's so real. I think it's probably better than Panharmonicon because it doubles bodies (and also the copy has the same static abilities), too, which can be relevant for devotion (also just having more bodies is hella tight).

Fiendish Duo: The star of the Game Night 2020 product (IMHO), I ran it because I didn't own an Angrath's Marauders. Fiendish Duo is much more exciting than I expected; the 5/5 first strike body for 4RR (if you hardcast it) is really decent, and the damage doubling -- while only against players -- doesn't require the source to be yours. So, if a third party attacks a threatening player, Purphoros can push this guy out to double the damage the player takes. Also, the quadrupling of damage with Flameshadow Conjuring is wild.
Oh, I definitely want a copy of Flameshadow Conjuring. Based on my experience with Flamerush Rider the more copying I can get in the deck the better off I am. I'm just waiting for a copy to come into my LGS.

Fiendish Duo I've looked at too, and it does look pretty great. It's.....not cheap though, for what it is. I'm loathe to pay the going price purely for manufactured scarcity, even if it is a great card. I guess if I ever come into some money or credit that I can freely spend on collection pimping it's the sort of thing I'd spring for, but until then I'm happy to wait for a reprint or just leave it if that doesn't happen.
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Fiendish Duo I've looked at too, and it does look pretty great. It's.....not cheap though, for what it is. I'm loathe to pay the going price purely for manufactured scarcity, even if it is a great card. I guess if I ever come into some money or credit that I can freely spend on collection pimping it's the sort of thing I'd spring for, but until then I'm happy to wait for a reprint or just leave it if that doesn't happen.
After I posted, I moused over Fiendish Duo's autocard and was immediately saddened. My group talked pretty extensively about Game Night 2019's exclusives when they went to market, and Fiendish Duo was my favourite. I thought of buying the full product, but none of the reprints appealed to me, so I just bought a set of the exclusives; Fiendish Duo was the most expensive one at $9, but the others were in the $3-4 range.

I hate scarce game pieces, it makes me sad.

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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

Sinis wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Fiendish Duo I've looked at too, and it does look pretty great. It's.....not cheap though, for what it is. I'm loathe to pay the going price purely for manufactured scarcity, even if it is a great card. I guess if I ever come into some money or credit that I can freely spend on collection pimping it's the sort of thing I'd spring for, but until then I'm happy to wait for a reprint or just leave it if that doesn't happen.
After I posted, I moused over Fiendish Duo's autocard and was immediately saddened. My group talked pretty extensively about Game Night 2019's exclusives when they went to market, and Fiendish Duo was my favourite. I thought of buying the full product, but none of the reprints appealed to me, so I just bought a set of the exclusives; Fiendish Duo was the most expensive one at $9, but the others were in the $3-4 range.

I hate scarce game pieces, it makes me sad.
Agreed. I've dropped some trade credit on Double Masters pieces purely because I know there's a good chance they'll hold their value, but this is one that there's no reason Wizards couldn't print again, and if they did the price would drop pretty reasonably, so I think it's sensible to not grab it, at least right now. I just try to make the most of what money and credit I have, there's no point in spending on stuff that's gonna tank over time or once it reprints.
Malazan Decks of the Fallen
| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 3 years ago

Hey @toctheyounger; I've been playing my version of this semi-frequently, and had a question about one of the subthemes in the deck, or maybe just a set of synergies: Tectonic Reformation, Ox of Agonas, Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Bedlam Reveler, Chandra, Flamecaller and Cavalier of Flame.

How have these cards worked out for you? They clearly all work together (or rather, they all work with Cavalier, and I suppose an Ox escapee). Do you find Neheb to do much work? I find that I don't often have many cards to discard to Neheb for mana/new cards. Do you find Ox/Reveler impactful enough at discard/draw 3?

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