Karador, Ghost Chieftain - Quest for Control

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

joshofclubs52 wrote:
2 years ago
Before it was just all the best tutors and combo pieces. It was boring and one dimensional. I've struggled to figure out how to make it grindy and control-based. You're very close to what I am looking for. Thanks.
This is one of the biggest things I try to avoid. There are certainly some more common plays that come up, but I don't like lists that only try to do one thing. I have said it before but it is the main reason I took apart Gitrog.

I am glad the lists offers some guidance. I wouldn't expect anyone to play the exact list I play for a number of reasons but I think it is, overall, solid and should offer a decent option for the strategy you are looking for.
shermanido37 wrote:
2 years ago
I will say that I'm a huge fan of the Spog. I recognize that it can't fog multiple combat steps, but personally that hasn't been a big difference to me.
My deck leverages the fact that it doesn't care much about its board to abuse multiple creatures that wipe it, like Night Incarnate, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, and now False Prophet. If you know of more options, I'd be glad to hear them. Either way, that's what my deck uses when it's threatened from multiple sides, and it's usually very effective since it's pretty easy to reclaim lost boards with Karador.
I don't tend to do much for board wipes on creatures other than False Prophet but I used to do Massacre Wurm and even tried out Demon of Dark Schemes but both ended up being cut. Gearhulk is likely one of the better options stapled to a creature so I can see where having more of those options does lessen the need for 3 turns of fogging.
I also predict that Dauthi Voidwalker won't be stellar when played late, but I'm still pretty certain that the card is incredibly strong. I love the fact that you can replay it, then use its ability to play things that were previously exiled. The options from this card are incredible!
This is my thought too. While not the most important when played late, it still often needs to be played around when it is on the field. And the re-usability is what I am really looking towards. Being able to exile even just 4 cards over the course of the game gives me additional fuel for the deck to keep going. Especially if I can get some of my opponents' big stuff.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 2 years ago

Oh, I also forgot to mention that Grist, the Hunger Tide is a very interesting card that I am thinking about. He is a PW, but he can be played out of the GY as a creature which is janky but provides a powerful way to recur a good PW. Uptick is essentially a draw + a chump blocker. Downtick is decent removal, and ult can be used as a finisher for those times that you don't want Kokusho, the Evening Star doing all the heavy lifting.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I think my biggest issue is the evaluation of the minus ability and whether it can really be good enough. In general, I shy away from Sorcery timing spot removal simply because there is enough that can happen that really requires an Instant. Now, I do think the plus ability to give us a blocker is relevant and it is the best Walker in these colors to do that. And filling the yard is also reasonable for this deck. I am not sure I would go as far as to put it in the same sphere as drawing a card but the deck does play out of the graveyard so I could see it being close. And the ult is good if we can get it off (and it only takes 3 turns to get it off).

With it being 3 mana and with the idea that he can effectively be a Bone Shredder or Ravenous Chupacabra (with the caveat of needing something to sac which isn't always available) does mean he probably deserves a second look. I am not sure he is an absolute keeper in the deck but the synergy and the mana cost do combine together to provide a reasonable card for the deck, even if it is not the most powerful option.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Dauthi Voidwalker has been 100% hot garbage or me so far - even against a mill deck with an entire table full of cards to choose from, my cards were always better =P

I imagine its stock goes up a lot against more generically powerful decks, but all it did was slow down the The Scarab God for a little bit before someone remove it--the entire table freaked out about their stuff getting milled to exile.

The other 3 times I saw it I didn't want to cast it over other options.

I'm hopeful, but heretofore it's just a lightning rod :)

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Post by shermanido37 » 2 years ago

So far Grist has been good. I'm currently only testing with my brother and his scary aggro Krenko deck, which is a weak matchup for him, but he still managed to be relevant as removal. I'm personally sort of comparing him to Liliana, Heretical Healer, which I'm also running, and has been an absolute powerhouse.
There's a new Angel from the new set that I think I might try testing. 4/5 flying lifelink is a great stick at the bare minimum, and she looks to possibly gain some great value on top of that.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

shermanido37 wrote:
2 years ago
There's a new Angel from the new set that I think I might try testing. 4/5 flying lifelink is a great stick at the bare minimum, and she looks to possibly gain some great value on top of that.
I would be interested to hear more about how Grist works out and I would be willing try it.

As for this, the new Liesa she does look pretty good. I am thinking of trying her as well. Giving me my creatures back in hand seems solid and stapling grave hate on top of that seems pretty golden. It also gives a much needed way to just force in some damage and get some life at the same time. I like her.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 2 years ago

@WizardMN My decklist is almost done. I can post it here. You will for sure see variations from your list, but I'm sure you can see the parts where you helped me find the core concept of the deck. I'll put in my buylist at the LGS this week, and hopefully be able to play it with my group next week. I'll reply with my results.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I will be interested to see it as well as hear about how different card choices affect your games. Good luck :)

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 2 years ago

@WizardMN How often do you find yourself prepping False Prophet ahead of time, vs going and getting him in reaction to things? I only ask because I'm debating on if Magus of the Disk would be worth subbing as a means to not have to exile my own creatures. Then again, exile helps deal with indestructible, so there is that...

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I basically never try to prep False Prophet ahead of time. Not only does that telegraph the play, it also forces me into using it at an inopportune time. That is, if I put it out turn 6 because I think Ezuri is going to flood the board in 3 turns, I leave myself open to losing it on turn 7 or 8 before I really need to use it. Obviously the other side of the coin applies too: if they flood out on turn 8 and I don't expect it, or I haven't gotten to Prophet yet, I get blown out anyway. But being able to get it off Chord or Fiend Artisans and sacrificing it right away is the play I generally try to make. I want it to be as much of a surprise as possible (though looping with Karador ends up being less of a surprise eventually).

Magus is alright but ends up being bad solely because no matter what you end up doing with Prophet, you will have times when you are simply digging for it because you need an answer *now* and Magus can never be an answer now. Spike Weaver can help buy time for that if necessary but casting Magus off Karador doesn't do anything if people see that and then just go all out before you can untap. I think it ends up being far too slow in the situations where you simply can't wait. Even if it does get rid of more things.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I played a game online against Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Selvala, Explorer Returned, and Reaper King. I mulliganed the first hand because there wasn't much going on in it but the second hand wasn't much better. I was hoping Callous Bloodmage might help get me out of a bind and it sort of did but not by enough.

Ezuri did Ezuri things and just flooded with Elves. They ended up with Priest of Titania, Ezuri, and Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun on the board. Selvala was going mostly pillowfort and Reaper King had their commander and Panharmonicon on the field. I had a chance to cast Windgrace's Judgment but since I only had 5 lands, one of which was a Bazaar of Baghdad, I chose to wait on it and let Reaper King sort of clean up Ezuri's board.

They did end up getting a Scarecrow next turn and blew up the Cradle and my Phyrexian Tower. Since Ezuri still had their commander and Priest of Titania, I felt this was a weird play and really cut me out of the game since I never got my second green or white to do much else. I did have Path which I used to exile Priest and I did have Solitude in hand which I could have used to save me from an alpha strike later but I was so far behind, and I was targeted hard by Ezuri, that I didn't really feel like continuing the game.

Reaper King did end up winning the next turn since Selvala conceded and Ezuri did as well. I know the right play at one point was to cast Judgment to get rid of Reaper King and probably Ezuri (maybe Priest if Ezuri wasn't out yet) but I really did overestimate the Reaper King player in terms of them reigning in Ezuri. To their credit, they did end up winning so it is hard to get too salty about the play (though I would say that Tower wasn't even the best target on my board, let alone on the board in general). But, in reality it was just a bad keep on my part and an overreliance on my opponents. I had been digging for a wrath but never got to one which I know would have changed things up quite a bit.

As for cards, Knight of the Reliquary and Crop Rotation showed up and felt like dead cards. Granted, the game was super quick (I died on turn 6) but I just ended up discarding both to Bazaar. Entomb is also starting to feel weird as I don't have cards that just work from the yard on their own so it is always a dead card early on. I am not saying I want to cut it (yet) but it does have issues when the game is just getting started.

Callous Bloodmage didn't do much beyond draw me a card so I am not sure if the versatility is worth the extra mana compared to a Wall. I think so but that opinion might change.

The second game I played went much better. It was against Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Grumgully, the Generous, and Averna, the Chaos Bloom.

I ended up slow rolling (perhaps a bit too much) some of my removal since Grumgully was going after Averna pretty hard. They did attack me once or twice but left Tasigur alone for the most part. I never really got any ramp but did get Yavimaya Elder to help get land drops. I also had Qasali Pridemage to deal with any artifacts or enchantments that we needed to deal with. I ended up just cracking it to blow up a Greater Good that Tasigur took from me off Villainous Wealth. This was after they cast Bane of Progress off of it so I figured I would just block and sac.

Part of the reason for this is because I needed to get back Necrotic Sliver to blow up their Cabal Coffers (again) since they got my Sun Titan. I then cast Solitude to exile Sun Titan though I should have waited as Averna had a Blasphemous Act that cleared the board anyway. This became important as Averna got Coffers back again with Regrowth this time and then cast Finale of Devastation for a Sepulchral Primordial to swing out and kill me. Averna scooped but I am not sure they were dead on board. And Grumgully scooped as soon as Tasigur got Cabal Coffers off their Crop Rotation which was a really early scoop since they were otherwise tapped out. If they stuck around, they might have been able to help? They did have 0 cards in hand so they might have scooped to the B Act later anyway.

But if I saved Solitude to see what Averna would do, I could have had it to exile the Primordial that would have come at me and then been able to control the rest of the game via Chainer, Dementia Master. Especially since I would have had Solitude to keep exiling creatures (I would have needed to get to a sac outlet to truly loop it though).

Overall a much better game though. I noticed Entomb had the same problem in this game as the last one in that it sat in my hand the entire game as it started in my opener. I never had anything worth getting though I did actually get Karador down, and I could have gotten Chainer down, so I likely could have done a fair amount with it. It is one of those cards that works really well to get me out of jams but I was also effectively playing with a 6 card hand all game.

Greater Good is another card that I have talked about cutting and I might finally pull the trigger on that soon. I would like to get back up to 39 lands since I have had a few situations (including game 1 here) where I struggle on mana. Part of this is exacerbated by the fact that I have a couple lands that produce no mana and and couple others that only produce colorless. I also should find a replacement for Yavimaya Elder that is actually ramp. Maybe I could go back to Dawntreader Elk or even Diligent Farmhand. I might look into Springbloom Druid as well since that at least ramps (and fixes) at 3 mana.

I haven't played in a long time and I think it shows with some of my poor choices but I also think I did reasonably well in the second game anyway. But I do think there are a few middling cards in the list that might make sense to try to beef up a little. Grist is a reasonable option being discussed but I think I really want to figure out a way to beef up the early game rather than add more power. Both games showed a struggle and/or limited actions being taken during the early game. Adding Wall of Omens back in probably helps or perhaps even other smaller creatures just to gum up the board a bit. Or perhaps even adding another wrath to simply "reset" at the right time and start to go off. The new white Wrath looks pretty sweet and seems like a good option for a lot of deck, including this one. I will see what else Innistrad brings and maybe reevaluate some other card choices.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 2 years ago

Here is my list. Sorry its in archidekt... I need to change to moxfield or something else. Would love some feedback.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Overall it doesn't look too bad. I am not sure about Lurrus of the Dream-Den as you only have about 10 options for it. That seems really low. I would just slot in Phyrexian Reclamation instead (which I see is part of your "Final Cuts" section).

Otherwise, I like the direction. Obviously there are quite a few card choices that differ from mine as you seem to be going far heavier into the self mill aspect. I look forward to hearing how your first few games go.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 2 years ago

Cathar Commando seems like an upgrade for Qasali Pridemage. I think flash > exalted. Plus if you run Skullclamp (I am), its clampable.
Also Lord of the Forsaken seems decent.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Here is my review/evaluation of cards from Midnight Hunt:

White Cards

Cathar Commando - This is basically a better Qasali Pridemage. I might contemplate swapping out Harmonic Sliver for this though as the cost ends up being the same but this can be flashed in. Since I only have one other sliver in the deck, this cut doesn't really impact that synergy anyway.

Fateful Absence - I like Instant timing removal and being able to get rid of Walkers is a plus. I am not sure this deck needs it thanks to Anguished Unmaking and Unexpectedly Absent but it seems pretty solid overall.

Search Party Captain - Interesting in that this can be a 2/2 Wall of Omens for {W} but it also means I have to wait beyond turn 2 to get it that cheap. Even to get it for 2 mana probably means I am looking at turn 3 or 4. Which just isn't good enough so this is a pass for now.

Vanquish the Horde - This is likely one of the best Wrath of God variants printed in a long time. It is going to be rare when this isn't cost for {WW} or even {1WW}. I think this goes in nearly every one of my white decks.

Green Cards

Outland Liberator - Another better Qasali Pridemage (ignoring Exalted of course). I think this is just a straight swap at this point.

Multicolor Cards

Liesa, Forgotten Archangel - I like this card a lot. A big beater, built in life gain, built in recursion, and grave hate make for a pretty overwhelming creature. I don't know where I fit this in but I think it makes sense to give her a try.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

joshofclubs52 wrote:
2 years ago
Cathar Commando seems like an upgrade for Qasali Pridemage. I think flash > exalted. Plus if you run Skullclamp (I am), its clampable.
Also Lord of the Forsaken seems decent.
You got you comment in before I was able to post my review but I agree on Commando. I also like Outland Liberator instead of Pridemage.

I am not sold on Lord of the Forsaken. Granted, I don't do self-mill but 6 mana is quite a bit. The last ability is certainly useful with Karador....but it is also useful *only* with Karador. I don't mind adding synergies to the deck to work with my commander but if they don't do anything without the commander, I usually stay away from them. And I think the Lord is in that boat for me.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
Here is my review/evaluation of cards from Midnight Hunt:

White Cards

Cathar Commando - This is basically a better Qasali Pridemage. I might contemplate swapping out Harmonic Sliver for this though as the cost ends up being the same but this can be flashed in. Since I only have one other sliver in the deck, this cut doesn't really impact that synergy anyway.

Fateful Absence - I like Instant timing removal and being able to get rid of Walkers is a plus. I am not sure this deck needs it thanks to Anguished Unmaking and Unexpectedly Absent but it seems pretty solid overall.

Search Party Captain - Interesting in that this can be a 2/2 Wall of Omens for {W} but it also means I have to wait beyond turn 2 to get it that cheap. Even to get it for 2 mana probably means I am looking at turn 3 or 4. Which just isn't good enough so this is a pass for now.

Vanquish the Horde - This is likely one of the best Wrath of God variants printed in a long time. It is going to be rare when this isn't cost for {WW} or even {1WW}. I think this goes in nearly every one of my white decks.

Green Cards

Outland Liberator - Another better Qasali Pridemage (ignoring Exalted of course). I think this is just a straight swap at this point.

Multicolor Cards

Liesa, Forgotten Archangel - I like this card a lot. A big beater, built in life gain, built in recursion, and grave hate make for a pretty overwhelming creature. I don't know where I fit this in but I think it makes sense to give her a try.
I've contemplated removing the slivers. This may push me that way, but I also included cabal/urborg for Torment of Hailfire, and decided to include Mirror Entity as another big mana outlet so i can pump my creatures for a swing-in, or also make others slivers in order to make use of the synergy. I do really like Outland Liberator, especially the night side. I just wonder how often it can be kept nightbound.
Liesa, Forgotten Archangel is an interesting card, but I'm in the same boat that I don't know where I would it in.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I think Necrotic Sliver is still too good to straight up cut. Vindicate on a body has saved me quite a few times thanks to looping it with Karador. But yeah, the Sliver synergy comes up so infrequently as to be non-existent so that isn't a good enough reason to keep Harmonic. And while I would like Liberator to stay Nightbound, I don't think it really matters to be honest. Sure, it is nice, but the "floor" is still Qasali Pridemage which is still good enough for the slot. So, even if it happens 1 game out of 100 where we can keep it transformed long enough to hit someone with it.

On a side note, assuming I understand the Daybound/Nightbound stuff: Day and Night are statuses of the game. Similar to a player having the Monarch or City's Blessing. Which means it can't be taken away but also (presumably) can only change when a card says to change. Depending on when this change occurs, and since it might be unlikely to see much else Daybound/Nightbound stuff, we can potentially control things to ensure it is always Night. Now, that might be tougher to do while still keeping the Liberator on the back face long enough to actually attack with it, but we could encounter a scenario where someone casts two spells to change it to Night but we just sac the Liberator so the game never changes back to Day. So, the next time we cast the Liberator, since it is Night, it enters on the back face and we get to try things again.

Of course, the game could just see that a player cast two spells while we have the Liberator on the back face and the creature doesn't need to survive to have the game change. Which means this isn't going to happen much anyway.

I think ultimately, we probably just let it change from Night to Day and hope we go a turn where no one casts a spell, but it could be an interesting situation to play around with.
Day and Night, once the game is one of them, is controlled entirely via the in game mechanic. It doesn't matter whether something is on the field with Daybound or Nightbound so this line of thought does not apply
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I got in another game against Zaxara, the Exemplary. There were two other players but they become irrelevant so it doesn't matter what they were playing.

I started off somewhat slow and sort of stumbled on mana when I got to 5 lands. I did cast Green Sun's Zenith on turn 1 to get Dryad Arbor but I couldn't really get much after that.

Zaxara ended up casting Emergent Ultimatum grabbing Wilderness Reclamation, Pemmin's Aura, and Rise of the Dark Realms. I had them shuffle Reclamation which then made the other two people scoop. While it was clear that Aura (if it resolved) would give them "inifinite" mana with Zaxara, I also had an Unexpectedly Absent in hand which I then used to remove Zaxara in response. While risky since they could have had a counterspell, I would have preferred if the other two people at least waited for Aura to resolve before scooping....

From there I basically just had to contend with Rise which I felt I could do since I had Toxic Deluge in hand. And the graveyards had basically nothing in them at the time they revealed it so no real harm done. But then I made a crucial mistake. They cast Eternal Witness to get back Rise and I stupidly attacked them. They blocked of course which killed the E Wit which then came back off Rise and got them Rise back.

Had I just waited for them to cast it, I could have cast my own E Wit to get Deluge back and wrath again without them having Rise in hand. But I didn't do that and I really couldn't do anything more since I knew they would just keep looping Rise from there on out (and I had no other wraths anyway).

So, yeah, a bit of a mistake on my part regarding attacking into the E Wit but I think the game would have gone much differently if the other two people stuck around.

I think there are only two main takeaways here: Collector Ouphe made me a pretty early target for both Zaxara (they only had one Artifact) and Akiri, Line-Slinger which means that being a hate bear meant I just started getting hated out earlier than I would have liked. While there is a balance between slowing others down and getting ganged up on, I am not sure this deck can handle the heat that early on. And an Ouphe later in the game isn't always that useful.

The second thing is that I think I really need to do more with things like Dawntreader Elk and Diligent Farmhand. The latter is a one drop that I can sac on turn 2 and the former is a 2 drop drop that I can sac on turn 3 while also leaving up mana if needed. They both get bodies in the yard for Karador and can make things a bit easier in the early part of the game. Since I have about 5 or 6 cards I am thinking of cutting anyway, and I don't think I have that many to add from Midnight Hunt, I might try these out. Otherwise I might just bite the bullet and add in 2 mana noncreature ramp spells like Nature's Lore and Three Visits.

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Post by shermanido37 » 2 years ago

I run a ton of mana elves. They are great early mana sources, they can be sacrificed for value like with Skullclamp, and they are bodies for Karador when they die. Having the option to play them from the yard is also great.
I also run Lurrus to provide redundancy for Karador's effect, and it's especially great with cards like Farmhand and Sakura-Tribe Elder in terms of mana. I have not been disappointed with it.
On top of that I also started running Yisan, since my curve has been getting continuously lower. Don't underestimate the option of a couple of his activations - he's been very helpful.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I used to run mana dorks and I didn't like them. I don't really want to go back to them. Obviously with things like Clamp their stock goes up a bit but it isn't something I am running right now.

I noticed @joshofclubs52 is running Lurrus too but with only 10 "targets" it seemed on the low end. How many are you running that Lurrus can get back? I did make some changes online and played another game (summary in my next post) so with Farmhand and Elk added, I have 15 options for Lurrus to cast and will probably go up to 16 or 17 with Midnight Hunt. That seems better than just 10 but I wonder where the minimal threshold ends up being?

Yisan is an interesting option. It fits in with Fiend Artisan (and Birthing Pod but I cut that a while back) as another way to tutor "on curve" which introduces interesting lines of play rather than just always going for the most powerful option. I might have to think on that a little bit.

For the game below, for testing purposes, I made the following changes:
9/12/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

The cuts have been talked about and I only cared about a few of the adds. I really don't think I need that much more ramp but it might still be good. I mostly just added them because I wanted to cut a bunch of cards (I still didn't remove everything I have been thinking to remove) so the adds were partially space filler. These are not necessarily finalized yet.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I played another game online and this time it was against Tazri, Beacon of Unity, Volo, Guide to Monsters, and Yusri, Fortune's Flame.

My starting hand had 5 lands, Momentous Fall, and Satyr Wayfinder. Not the greatest hand but it is hard to just ship a hand that ensures land drops and potentially fuels Karador. So I kept it and started with Wayfinder to get me an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and binned a couple creatures.

I drew a Farseek next turn and then Archon of Justice the turn after. I cast Archon on turn 4 and had a High Market to sac it if needed. I also had the Momentous Fall. Next turn I drew into a Qasali Pridemage which ended up doing a fair bit of work. Yusri tried to get Krark's Thumb down but Tazri exiled Yusri (which resulted in Yusri trying to counter it and Volo countering the counter).

I was able to get Luminous Broodmoth next turn so I activated Pridemage to blow up the Thumb and then just left it there. Tazri ended up dropping in a Maralen of the Mornsong which I used to grab a False Prophet. I also had Toxic Deluge in hand for a while that I never needed thanks to False Prophet. It ended up being nice to have False Prophet as an option since Volo cast Apex Devastator so getting rid of them would have cost 10 life.

Yusri attempted to cast Krark's Thumb again after getting it back from Buried Ruin and bouncing my Pridemage that I still had sitting out there. They flipped their coins and won 4 out of 5 with the Thumb and then decided to scoop it up from there. Not really sure why they went so all in on Yusri and then scooped. They were still in a better spot than Tazri since Tazri was getting stuck on lands. Though Tazri also had an Arena Rector we were trying to play around (where Prophet also came in handy for).

Once I wrathed, Tazri was basically done as they were at 5 lands to my 10+ and Volo's 13+ mana (with dorks). Shortly after I cracked Prophet, I cast Eerie Ultimatum to get a bunch of stuff back and then just went on the offensive with my tiny creatures. This was ultimately enough to close out the game.

Pridemage was pretty big in this game, as was Aura Shards that I had gotten at one point. Broodmoth was nice to have and I did find again that I would like to have a cheap sac outlet since I was going back and forth on grabbing Yawgmoth off one Maralen trigger but decided against it because 4 mana was too much for everything I wanted to do at the time. I don't really sac my board too often or need to sac more than 1 or 2 creatures though so things like Viscera Seer might be dead draws more often than not.

The changes above were nice to see. Farseek, Elk, and Nature's Lore made appearances and definitely smoothed out my land situation. I was even able to ramp with Elk 3 times total thanks to Ultimatum and Broodmoth. Not a whole lot else to say I suppose. I will try to come up with a more final change list after Midnight Hunt is released.

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

With Midnight Hunt being released, and with a few other things in flux, here is what I think I am going to try out for changes:

So, a couple cards I have talked about and a couple more others have talked about. Let's start with the cuts:

Pridemage and Sliver are both just straight swaps for Liberator and Commando. I think Flash is easily better than Exalted and being able to cast out one of the cards to then just sit there (or activate at Instant timing) is better than trying to make Sliver work with Winding Canyons or something.

Judgment is high-ish on the curve and I am not sure it truly becomes necessary. I have a ton of removal as it is, and a 5 drop to remove something is maybe a little overkill. I will admit that part of this is due to adding Vanuish without cutting another wrath so while Judgment can get noncreatures, adding in a cheap wrath means this might not be as needed.

Yavimaya Dryad is due to the increase in lower cost ramp (and ramp in general) and because it doesn't work with Lurrus, which I have decided to give a try. I mentioned before that I might have gone a little overboard on ramp and this is a slow scaling back of the ramp package based on that.

Ulamog and Gray Merchant are sort of interesting to me. Both have been in the deck for basically as long as the deck has existed. Gray Merchant might be outpaced since I only have 18 black pips in the deck counting Karador and the new additions. And I am obviously not going to get them on the field at the same time so it likely won't close out games on its own. Which, in all honestly, isn't what he was really here for anyway. He was mainly a good life gain effect that also drained a bit. But I think the time has come to part ways with him and see what the deck can do without him.

Ulamog is a little tougher for me since I used to have him and Kozilek primarily as protection against grave hate. But I think this might no longer be needed. First, grave hate is getting to the point where it isn't quite as prevalent as it used to be. It still exists of course (since decks like this still exist) but players aren't looking to be answering other players quite as much as they are trying to be the ones to be answered. And second, I think I have crafted this deck pretty well to be fairly resilient to grave hate anyway. Karador rarely makes appearances, especially early on, and I have quite a few bombs that don't really need to be looped. While I have built the deck with the intent of looping things, it can win just fine by playing "fairly". I might revisit this but I think it is a good cut for now.

Of the adds, I mentioned most already. I do want to touch on Lurrus and Grist though. With these changes, I have 17 potential cards to recast using Lurrus. I don't think any of those 17 cards are going to make or break a game if I am able to loop them more than once. But I do think that getting some additional value out of them is fine too. I am not totally sold on him because 17 feels sort of low for him but I am still in a position where I think the cuts are warranted so I am just trying out new things in those slots.

Grist is another that falls into that mentality. I don't think I necessarily need him, but I have the room and he was mentioned so I might as well give him a try.

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Post by shermanido37 » 2 years ago

The best cards to abuse with Lurrus are probably:
Sakura-tribe Elder
Selfless Spirit
Diligent Farmhand
Animate Dead
Dance of the Dead
Saffi Eriksdotter
Priest of Fell Rites
Spore Frog
Viscera Seer

It's also a great safety net for good cards that are destroyed and otherwise can't really be replayed, like:
Skullclamp
Survival of the Fittest
Altar of Dementia

The rest of the time it's just redundancy for Karador when bringing back important low cost creatures. Those usually include:
Elves
Artifact and enchantment destruction (i.e. the new cards, as well as Caustic Catterpillar)
Fiend Artisan
Blood Artist
Dauthi Voidwalker

Frankly I'm deliberating whether to include even more low cost things.
I like your redundancy for Diligent Farmhand, but it feels like too much of my creatures want to sacrifice themselves, and not enough are ETB bodies that I can utilize. For that reason I'm not letting go of Dryad yet.

I'll also say that Gary is not only a win condition for me with Reveillark and Karmic Guide, but it's just super clutch in my relatively aggressive meta. I can see excluding it if you have neither of those.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

This particular build feels more like a Resolute Archangel deck for lifegain than Gray Merchant of Asphodel to me. If you look at the way @WizardMN selects creatures it's more about making sure the Karador cast is really impactful in the mid game I think than lots of little guys.

It's honestly a shame white doesn't have more powerful lifegainers on bodies.

With Crop Rotation and Diamond Valley you might not really need anything else,

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