Ephara, God of the Polis

Hoboz · Post by **Hoboz** » 4 years ago

Literally made an account to point out a neat thing.

So, for my 'version' of Ephara I've been running Mana Vault+Arcane Signet instead of Moxes, and I just realized that Tidespout Tyrant actually has a real infinite using the 2-mana rocks.

With Tidespout out, using Crypt or Vault with the colored rocks gives you infinite colored mana. Then you combine it with Venser, Shaper Savant/Whitemane Lion/Stonecloaker/Mastery of the Unseen to bounce every permanent on the board. Mastery is infinite also because you can just dig and flip through your entire deck until you find the others. It is also safe with Talisman because its own lifegain should offset your life loss.

Also, in terms of hatebears, I wanna open the floor back to Grand Arbiter Augustin IV and a second copy of Rule of Law with Ethersworn Canonist. Just having Eidolon of Rhetoric often seems so much more consistently better than other hatebears I'm legit considering just running two of him basically. I'm also thinking Kataki, War's Wage might be fantastic now with less dependency on artifacts for value.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

Hoboz wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Literally made an account to point out a neat thing.

So, for my 'version' of Ephara I've been running Mana Vault+Arcane Signet instead of Moxes, and I just realized that Tidespout Tyrant actually has a real infinite using the 2-mana rocks.

With Tidespout out, using Crypt or Vault with the colored rocks gives you infinite colored mana. Then you combine it with Venser, Shaper Savant/Whitemane Lion/Stonecloaker/Mastery of the Unseen to bounce every permanent on the board. Mastery is infinite also because you can just dig and flip through your entire deck until you find the others. It is also safe with Talisman because its own lifegain should offset your life loss.

Also, in terms of hatebears, I wanna open the floor back to Grand Arbiter Augustin IV and a second copy of Rule of Law with Ethersworn Canonist. Just having Eidolon of Rhetoric often seems so much more consistently better than other hatebears I'm legit considering just running two of him basically. I'm also thinking Kataki, War's Wage might be fantastic now with less dependency on artifacts for value.

Welcome aboard

Tidespout wins with a lot of lines, mana vault+arcane signet is a totally fine replacement for moxes. Arguably more consistent since vault is way more reliable than mox diamond (you really need a 4 land hand or another piece of ramp for it to be great. Most decks cannot beat whitemane + tidespout + cost reducer either, fwiw. Even just bouncing 3-4 things a turn cycle is enough to make most people scoop.

I'm not sure tidespout is here to stay personally but so far it's been really impressive just as a value card. It protects itself with many of our self-bouncers and just our style of casting cheap spells can easy let you tempo someone out. I have also manifested it and blinked it with Displacer before, which is fairly dirty.

GAAIV is surely playable. In my new shop I could probably get away with it. I'm not sure what I would cut for it, but it sure is mana efficient and makes a lot of stuff great.

The issue I have found with ethersworn canonist and why I don't run it is because many decks can play around it and many decks can use it better than us. Eidolon is always great for us because of all the instants and mana sinks. I would very much like a functional reprint, preferably a more aggressive body (3/1 like Spirit of the Lab!). The rule of law effects are absolutely the best for this deck,.

Kataki, War's Wage is a card I have thought a ton about since it's easy to find, but the issue it has is that it's just not stony silence. We would windmill slam Collector Ouphe in our colors, but Kataki allows people to cast their combo piece and win that turn or even pay for a couple things then combo out. It's just not enough of a tax.

I am seriously looking forward to Theros, and hoping for some more hits there. spirit of the labyrinth is very close to amazing.

Rumpy5897 · Post by **Rumpy5897** » 4 years ago

If you like Rule of Law/Stony Silence, why not just jam them? Sure, they're not creatures, so you won't get Ephara draws, but as enchantments they also happen to die less easily, so there's that.

Also, how have you been finding the drawback of Winds of Abandon, i.e. the fact everybody else now gets to have a stack of basics to rebuild with when they untap? I skimmed the thread, and overall the mentions seem to be positive, and I'm considering it for inclusion in one of my decks. However, I'm fearing the whole mega Path aspect of it a little.

Hoboz · Post by **Hoboz** » 4 years ago

I'm probably gonna try GAAIV over Windborn Muse for now, but that's cause my pods have timid people.

I've only used Winds of Abandon overloaded once so far, it did great. I personally focus primarily on card advantage engines when I can; to stop mana from mattering. Also, dropping a Rule of Law (hence why I think another one might be good).

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

Rumpy5897 wrote: ↑
4 years ago
If you like Rule of Law/Stony Silence, why not just jam them? Sure, they're not creatures, so you won't get Ephara draws, but as enchantments they also happen to die less easily, so there's that.

Also, how have you been finding the drawback of Winds of Abandon, i.e. the fact everybody else now gets to have a stack of basics to rebuild with when they untap? I skimmed the thread, and overall the mentions seem to be positive, and I'm considering it for inclusion in one of my decks. However, I'm fearing the whole mega Path aspect of it a little.

It's true, but the issue with enchantments is I can't bounce them and replay them as easily either heh. That's the main thing with eidolon. You can straight up eidolon lock people with sun titan also where you sac eidolon, cast your stuff, bash to recur it. Doesn't happen that much but it happens every now and then. Rule of Law is much harder to get rid of when I want to combo off

So far, I have cast winds of abandon something like 10 times, only overloaded it twice and it won me the game both times - I have used it more for killing a single creature than anything. The biggest scary part of it is when you have to choose not to cast it because it's worse than another sweeper. This has happened a couple times, where I would have rather had final judgment or something.

That said, I think the upside is high enough that it's worth it to run if your meta is creature heavy enough. I think mass exiling has gotten to be so important that I really like having the ability to run one that isn't as terrible as final judgment.

It has never lost me the game that I can think of, but it's really hard to quantify because when it would lose the game you just don't cast it -- and that in itself may eventually lead to losing the game down the road (in terms of value over a replacement card).

Hoboz wrote: ↑
4 years ago
I'm probably gonna try GAAIV over Windborn Muse for now, but that's cause my pods have timid people.

I've only used Winds of Abandon overloaded once so far, it did great. I personally focus primarily on card advantage engines when I can; to stop mana from mattering. Also, dropping a Rule of Law (hence why I think another one might be good).

I think GAIIV over windborn is an exceptional choice if your meta is timid about attacking. Mine is bloodthirsty, everyone bashes at anyone who has no blockers if they can safely do it, sometimes even if they take damage in return. And there're a ton of random 4/4s and whatever.

shermanido37 · Post by **shermanido37** » 4 years ago

Okay, so I'll detail my thought process on Hatebears. It's a very important topic for me in this deck, since it's most of my deck's mid-game plan.
The main idea with hatebears, is that instead of a typical stax/control gameplan of slotting tons of counterspells or removal spells, we can use creatures that result in similar effects. They also stay on the board which means they can answer similar cards in the future. This gives us the ability to cantrip from each of our answers, as well as tutor them more easily with Recruiter, bounce them to protect them, or defend with them if combat gets dicy. Examples are flashing Containment Priest versus Reanimate, Aven Mindcensor versus Survival of the Fittest, and Hushwing Gryff versus, frankly, pretty much everything in EDH. There are also some great non-flash bears that act as proactive stoppers of our opponents' game plans while leaving us alone or even befitting us, like Spirit of the Labyrinth, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, etc.
This strategy is great in similar conditions as common control decks - it's best when it can disrupt big plays from our opponents and stack up card advantage against them. However, again similarly to common control decks, we need to make sure that we have the answers that are best suited up to the decks are going up against - the meta. Do you find yourself often in combat? Try cards like Peacekeeper or Windborn Muse. Are reanimation and creature combos common? Consider Hushbringer or Angel of Jubilation. Can't see the end of the stack? Eidolon, Spirit and Ethersworn Canonist have your back.

So after this prologue, I'll keep the most of the wall of text in the spoiler tags here. I'm analyzing each card I've played with and some more that I've considered, along with its merits / faults, some cards we run that it likes and some cards we run it doesn't like.

Anti Combo

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Containment Priest

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Cheap, flash, deals with Sneak Attack, Deadeye Navigator and Reanimate, easily tutorable. When it's good, it's backbreaking. On top of that it has a few great synergies with cards like Deputy of Detention. When neither of that happens it does nothing, but even then it's easy to play and cantrip from. I don't think his guy is going out of my list.
Likes: Eldrazi Displacer, Deputy of Detention
Dislikes: Reveillark, Soulherder

Aven Mindcensor

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I keep getting surprised by the amount of tutoring in my meta from a variety of different decks. There are times when this card is on the field and most if not all of my opponents are entirely shut down. Backbreaker, highly recommended.
Likes: Winds of Abandon
Dislikes: ---

Spirit of the Labyrinth

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We draw one card each turn, so what do we care if the whole table is restricted to it? Our opponents, though, can be in a world of hurt. Card draw is vital to EDH in general and to combat our strategy in particular, and most card draw happens in bulk. So if we blank our opponents' Skullclamp, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, etc. they will have a much harder time trying to stop us, and we will have an easier time taking over.
However, this guy is suited best for metas that are hungry for card advantage. If your opponents are hitting you in the face early into the game, they won't care too much about drawing cards, since they'll be able to draw them all the same when you're dead.
Likes: Arcane Denial, Geier Reach Sanitarium
Dislikes: ---

Linvala, Azorius Renegade

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This card is even more meta-specific than the previous one, but it can be much more devastating. At the highest level of play, playing cards for free or having more mana rocks is pretty common, and this is where she shines. Force of Will, most Mana Vault and Grim Monolith plays, and more. Plus she has some neat interactions with cards like Spell Queller.
However more often than not this means she's best in a meta which is not creature heavy. Mine is, so she's mostly blank there.
Likes: Spell Queller, Knowledge Pool (soft lock)
Dislikes: tax effects (since additional costs count as paying mana to cast it, her ability is denied)

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

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Cheap, great body for its cost, and is mostly a one sided Sphere of Resistance in our deck. I love her and wish I could get her beautiful foil.
Likes: any creature-filled hand
Dislikes: Forbid (the cost gets unreasonable)

Angel of Jubilation

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You might not know this guy, but he's a pet card of mine and he always pops up into my head even though he's likely not good enough to see play. He's a good body, a buff for our creatures to help them survive combat and dish out damage, and he disabled a couple of particular abilities which can be very key. For example: Necropotence, Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, Sadistic Hypnotist, High Market, Mana Confluence, etc.
Likes: token engines
Dislikes: Altar of Dementia, Helm of Possession

Anti Creatures

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Linvala, Keeper of Silence

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At first I thought she was overkill, but over time I started to appreciate her. She shuts down mana elves, sac outlets, t abilities, and more - asymmetrically. Her body is also formidable compared to most of what we have.
Likes: ---
Dislikes: ---

Hushwing Gryff

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Cheap, flashy, tutorable, and just answers everything. A ton of effects in EDH come on ETB creatures, and this shuts them down hard. Definitely a core hatebear.
Likes: Eldrazi Displacer (taps opponents' creatures without triggering ETB), Cyclonic Rift
Dislikes: any ETB creature, Cloudstone Curio

Hushbringer

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This card definitely isn't up to par with the Gryff, but it's still a great Torpor Orb if you want it. Plus, stifling death triggers can be more meaningful than one might think: Archon of Justice, Skullclamp, Grave Pact, Blood Artist, Harvester of Souls, and more.
Likes: same as Gryff
Dislikes: same as Gryff + Glen Elendra Archmage

Faerie Artisans

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This creature takes the twist of focusing on ETBs, and instead of blanking them just gives you a copy. If you manage to make the tokens stay, they can serve as threats that demand answers, and the best part is that they came from your opponents' decks so they can't say it's unfair.
Likes: Eldrazi Displacer (resetting Artisans makes the tokens stay)
Dislikes: any Torpor Orb ability

Thalia, Heretic Cathar

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You would not believe the impact this little girl has on the field. All aggressive decks are suddenly almost stopped in their tracks. Most super duper ramp decks are heavily slowed. Anything that relies on haste is just turned off for an entire round. Fetches are suddenly pretty bad. Plus she's very scary on defense.
Likes: Deputy of Detention, Cyclonic Rift, Brazen Borrower
Dislikes: Winds of Abandon (ton of basics means they don't care about nonbasics)

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

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This good girl is the closest thing this deck has to real board presence. If she resolves she denies any utility bodies for your opponents. Our side is also buffed by a significant amount, putting all the bodies we've amassed so far to good use.
Likes: tiny creatures on the board (anyone's board)
Dislikes: low amounts of mana

Harmonious Archon

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This new guy had created some buzz but was soon forgotten. I still think it's the definite best white high drop we've seen in recent years. It has an effect similar to Norn, but it prefers to shut down larger creatures instead of killing low health ones. Preliminary testing shows promising results - if you can resolve this guy versus eldrazi 13/13s you are in great shape.
Likes: Eldrazi Displacer (blink protects AND creates tokens), Elesh Norn, anthems
Dislikes: Opponent having many small creatures, opponent having Anthem effects

Godhead of Awe

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Probably haven't seen this one before, but I keep considering it. Turning all other creatures into 1/1s means that as long as we can keep up in body count we will probably be safe from damage.
Likes: Elesh Norn (kill all enemies!), anthems
Dislikes: Opponent having many small creatures, opponent having Anthem effects

Anti Stack

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Eidolon of Rhetoric

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Had to mention it because it's just too solid not to run. The only deck that would benefit from this effect is a green battlecruiser that sinks all its mana into one spell each turn, and we have a very easy time shutting down that deck. The body has also been very relevant versus aggressive decks. Also probably never leaving my list.
Ethersworn Canonist was also great for me until I started to play against heavy artifact decks like Daretti or Saheeli.
Likes: Forbid, Whitemane Lion, As Foretold, Sacred Mesa, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Glen Elendra Archmage
Dislikes: getting our spell for turn countered

Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir

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Teferi, Time Raveler has the same hate effect and is widely regarded as one of the best cards in standard right now, and is also played in legacy. It's more than a Grand Abolisher since it's so restrictive to your opponents, while letting you play your hate pieces at any time you like. It can also counter some combos like Maelstrom Wanderer and Epic Experiment very well. I love it and will continue playing it for a long while.
Likes: Spell Queller
Dislikes: ---

Glen Elendra Archmage

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I tend to think about cutting this guy, but there are too many problematic noncreature spells - especially with the recent prevalence of broken PWs - and I can't predict them all. Overall he answers 2 cards from opponents and gives you two, so you could say it puts you four cards ahead in terms of card advantage.
Likes: Eldrazi Displacer (resetting the counter means countering more spells), Eidolon of Rhetoric
Dislikes: Hushbringer

Miscellaneous

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Kataki, War's Wage

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In my experience it's a great counter to fair or go wide artifact decks, but it never seemed to justify its weight for me. Not enough artifacts apparently.

Remorseful Cleric

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Simple and effective. Sometimes the threat of activation is more valuable than the activation itself, so you get some board presence and diplomatic power. Great for a control deck.

Meddling Mage

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This card's first function for me is simply answering commanders, especially ones that are the main strategy of their deck. Imagine sticking this onto Narset, Enlightened Mastter, Uril, the Mistwalker, etc. Otherwise it's great if I know the opponents have a particular problem in their hand which I don't want to deal with right now.
Likes: Eldrazi Displacer (resetting the name), Cyclonic Rift, Brazen Borrower
Dislikes: any Torpor Orb effect

Grand Arbiter Augustin IV

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My experience with this guy has been disappointing. Mostly my playgroup just %$#% and moans while killing him ASAP or paying his tax without a care in the world. His cost reduction is lacking impact without some consistent way to abuse it in hand like Forbid.
Likes: Smothering Tithe, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Dislikes: get to feel like the asshole on the table

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

This is an exceptionally drawn up list, I really appreciate you sharing. I'll just throw a few notes down there.

The reason I don't play angel of jub is that it shuts off fetchlands. Really big problem for my deck which is extremely fetchland heavy (and maybe moreso soon since I got a line on a tarn

.

Our deck doesn't pay life too much other than those.

Spirit of the Labyrinth really likes dig through time if you play that, as it's a way to break the symmetry and still see lots of cards.

You're dead on about Linvala, Keeper of Silence. The most important thing she does is shut off commanders with powerful activated abilities -- mairsil, muzzio, jalira, grenzo, etc. You name it. She fixes a lot of really bad matchups like mana elf too. And she shuts off a ton of combos of course (Sabertooth, kiki).

I have not yet tried Big Thalia but she is on my list. I have definitely seen her do a lot of work. I think generally the first strike creatures (her, thalia's lancers) are much better with more equipment (so +jitte, +sword of light and shadow).

A useful thing you can do with Norn is lock the board with sun titan + phantasmal image. If you clone norn with image, everything gets -4/-4 for a split second, which is tremendously powerful. Clones are great period with her.

You also nailed why I switched back from Canonist to Eidolon -- way too many artifact themed decks these days, and eidolon destroys those decks.

Glen Elendra Archmage has won way too many games for me recently to get rid of it. Just savage against decks that need to resolve non-creatures to win. I recently had it bash for 6 for the win because someone dropped a coat of arms and I had a ton of wizards out as well

Note: Meddling mage's ETB is not a triggered effect so is unaffected by torpor orb. It's a replacement effect. I am not a fan of it mostly cos of the feelbads. But it is very powerful.

shermanido37 · Post by **shermanido37** » 4 years ago

If your fetch density is reaching critical mass I strongly recommend Brought Back. If your first two lands are fetches, you can pop both then cast it with the lands you brought into play, which gives you Ephara mana on T3. In addition you can wait on a fetchland if you have it in hand, then pop a Remorseful Cleric or Kami of False Hope for two targets for value. Not to mention all of that gets even crazier with Archaeomancer...

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

shermanido37 wrote: ↑
4 years ago
If your fetch density is reaching critical mass I strongly recommend Brought Back. If your first two lands are fetches, you can pop both then cast it with the lands you brought into play, which gives you Ephara mana on T3. In addition you can wait on a fetchland if you have it in hand, then pop a Remorseful Cleric or Kami of False Hope for two targets for value. Not to mention all of that gets even crazier with Archaeomancer...

One of these days I'll figure out what to shave for it, I do have one to try

I did try it in Aminatou and it was occasionally fairly good but also pretty awkward. Though the mana was far less white dense in that deck, the WW was a pain.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

I got one game in last night with Ephara, and it was a pretty long epic slogfest with some awesome interactions.

Animar (CEDH-level combo) vs. Brago (8/10) vs. Dragonlord Silumgar (6.5/10 by my estimation, but lots of interaction)

This game went on for about 10 turns, but each turn was incredibly dense and stacked with action so I can't even come close to remembering everything.

I'll try to summarize some pivotal plays

My opener was a pretty bonkers start of:
Land, e-tutor for mana crypt, t2 Ephara, t3 Smothering Tithe.

* Turn 4 or so, Brago attempted to cast Treachery on Animar, with his greaves+brago suited up. He had only one mana rock and was short on cards, so decided to fight over it. The stack got to:

Counter
Counter
Treachery

When I realized the opportunity to ruin Brago's night I venser'd Animar, causing Treachery to fizzle and knocking both of them to 2 cards in hand (and of course I drew a card off Venser + Ephara!:).

* Turn 6, Animar cast worldly tutor on my end step for dockside extortionist, then untapped and cast animar then Dockside. Silumgar cast desertion on dockside, gaining 20-ish treasures from my board of mana rocks and smothering tithe. Dockside would continue to define the game, as Silumgar cloned it 3 times and I cloned it once generating +20 or so treasures from his treasures.

* Sometime in here I was forced to blow an intuition for 3 counterspells to stop Animar from winning with ancestral statue. This was lame because I was gonna win on untap with intuition

* Turn 10-ish, Animar went for the win with Great Whale shenanigans. unfortunately for him I had Eldrazi Displacer and my newest add Faerie Artisans and 2 colorless lands.

So what proceeded was absolute %$#%$#%, that I am sure I played suboptimally since it could have left me with infinite great whale tokens;

I made infinite mana for both of us by infinitely blinking his great whale and generating Artisan tokens, then infinitely spell quellered his plays after that (due to the interaction with Queller and displacer) -- which caused him to scoop.

I finished off the game by topping into a Archaeomancer for my old intuition for tidespout + karmic guide + reveillark, which with my crypt+sol ring+displacer+karmic guide on board with venser, shaper savant in the bin spelled the game.

Themes of this game that I think will resonate--

Learning to use Faerie Artisans correctly is going to be a long run I think. It was so just, excessively good that I was blown away. It's never been that good for me. Hijacking someone else's infinite combo with displacer was just not something I had ever considered with that card. People really have to be careful about playing land untapper combos when I have artisans out. It did a ton of work, copying SIlumgars and Great Whales and so on and so forth.

Having Tidespout Tyrant as a mostly 1-card combo is feeling pretty important; Silumgar exiled a ton of my cards with Ashiok and Mind's Dilation and happened to hit Altar of Dementia which was going to put a damper on me winning.

Eldrazi Displacer is very good. I probably need to put Nimbus maze in as I was very lucky to have two colorless sources in this game. It pretty much defines games in which it resolves for long.

I really love all the instant speed nonsense this deck can do; some highlights of things I did--

* bouncing a spell queller with whitemane lion that had a counterspell under it, allowing someone to counter someone else's spell. (They chose not to ultimately but it was still a sweet play).

* stonecloaking that whitemane lion to reset it, exiling the dragonlord silumgar that oppt. had put in the bin instead of Czone (to reanimate presumably)

* Intuition'ing for mana drain, snapcaster and ephemerate, with a spell queller on board when I needed a counterspell.

shermanido37 · Post by **shermanido37** » 4 years ago

Nice recap. I think you're starting to get why Artisans is such a powerhouse.

Here's my current list (mana base here is not updated):

Decklist

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Ephara Flash Hatebears

Commander

Approximate Total Cost:

I just got a ton of new cards that I'm dying to test out, and I'm keen on looking at interactions between them.
You'll notice that I have no Intuition package, so no Sun Titan or other expensive reanimators, and no Mana Crypt, so there's no Tyrant. Instead I just slotted in Altar of Dementia with plenty of ways to tutor it, along with Vesperlark. The idea is that it works with clones just like Reveillark, but without Remorseful Cleric or Venser, Shaper Savant shenanigans. That deficit is covered by its very high tutorability without losing too much utility, since there are plenty of 1 power creatures for it to reanimate. Whether this new interaction works or not, I will probably pick up another clone for more combo redundancy.
The other thing is that the Archon acts as both a hatebear for giant power dudes, and a board presence monster for me, in a way that is very much like Elesh Norn. I'm excited about testing it out.

Cards that are sitting in the sidelines, waiting for their opportunity:
Enchantment package - Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Enlightened Tutor, Mystic Remora, Solitary Confinement, Spirit of the Labyrinth
Reveillark as the superior combo card
Brought Back if I somehow get more fetches
Sower of Temptation
Charming Prince
Kataki, War's Wage
Angel of Jubilation as another board buff with hate effect
Vedalken AEthermage - probably not mentioned in my list is Riptide Laboratory, but it's definitely there with multiple targets. With Vesperlark and plenty of bounce effects, this card could be a multiple use tutor that's also a flash blocker. I keep thinking about it and my fingers get itchy.
Boreas Charger - how did this card work out for you? Sure, it's great to sac it to Mesa, but otherwise it feels too slow and conditional.

I may possibly get into a couple of games in the near future, and it would be a great opportunity to test out the deck. What do you think?

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

shermanido37 wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Nice recap. I think you're starting to get why Artisans is such a powerhouse.

Here's my current list (mana base here is not updated):

I just got a ton of new cards that I'm dying to test out, and I'm keen on looking at interactions between them.
You'll notice that I have no Intuition package, so no Sun Titan or other expensive reanimators, and no Mana Crypt, so there's no Tyrant. Instead I just slotted in Altar of Dementia with plenty of ways to tutor it, along with Vesperlark. The idea is that it works with clones just like Reveillark, but without Remorseful Cleric or Venser, Shaper Savant shenanigans. That deficit is covered by its very high tutorability without losing too much utility, since there are plenty of 1 power creatures for it to reanimate. Whether this new interaction works or not, I will probably pick up another clone for more combo redundancy.
The other thing is that the Archon acts as both a hatebear for giant power dudes, and a board presence monster for me, in a way that is very much like Elesh Norn. I'm excited about testing it out.

Cards that are sitting in the sidelines, waiting for their opportunity:
Enchantment package - Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Enlightened Tutor, Mystic Remora, Solitary Confinement, Spirit of the Labyrinth
Reveillark as the superior combo card
Brought Back if I somehow get more fetches
Sower of Temptation
Charming Prince
Kataki, War's Wage
Angel of Jubilation as another board buff with hate effect
Vedalken AEthermage - probably not mentioned in my list is Riptide Laboratory, but it's definitely there with multiple targets. With Vesperlark and plenty of bounce effects, this card could be a multiple use tutor that's also a flash blocker. I keep thinking about it and my fingers get itchy.
Boreas Charger - how did this card work out for you? Sure, it's great to sac it to Mesa, but otherwise it feels too slow and conditional.

I may possibly get into a couple of games in the near future, and it would be a great opportunity to test out the deck. What do you think?

So looking at your decklist there's not a single card I could not see playing, everything kinda fits with our general gameplan and theme. The altar combo kills lethal anyway so really no big deal there. And no coincidence any of the cards on that list I could see playing.

Probably the easiest angles for trying new things are going to be to:
1) swap combo packages (e.g.phyrexian altar/archaeomancer vs. altar of dementia)
2) swapping out the more situational hatebears like:

Those three slots from good but not 100% necessary hatebears give you a lot of room to play around I think, taking 1-2 of them out at a time.

If you're going to try brought back I would probably prioritize the phyrexian altar + archaeomancer combo.

Obviously you know how I feel about Reveillark but its stock does go down a bit without intuition (which I have rapidly found myself not able to live without, tbh).

The enchantment package is strong; don't forget impending collapse there.

As you go down the list I think you get less and less playable (aethermage is very slow and narrow, angel has some major limitations), but all reasonable considerations. I think aethermage stock goes up if you're trying to combo with timestream or archaeomancer though.

Of your selections I think the thing that I find the most interesting is Harmonious archon. That card is really enticing. Just a huge army in a can and can turn really go nuts. I wish we had a "search for a flying creature" tutor, I think being able to find it reliably would put it over the top for me.

I think I got exactly one boreas charger trigger in all the games I ran it; it competes really hard with smothering tithe as my only real non-ephara-accelerating card. I think its ceiling is quite high but the floor is very very low. Makes it not a card I have a ton of interest in unless I were much heavier on a blink package.

That said, I don't think I ever got to use it post-soulherder. It would often be correct to go recruiter-herder-charger, since you can generate a lot of lands and not have people terrified by spellseeker coming out third. Pretty situational though.

shermanido37 · Post by **shermanido37** » 4 years ago

If you really want a flying tutor, there's Isperia the Inscrutable. Rather slow to get working, but still a valid option. It might also be good that she almost turns on Ephara by herself.

Lavinia is the only bear that I'm truly not certain about. The rest offer very relevant utility: Meddling Mage is there against commander reliant decks or against specific cards I know are coming, like Karador's creatures in the yard, Containment Priest is there against reanimation and opposing blink strats, which are plentiful, and Hushbringer pretty much counters utility creatures and creature combos entirely, plus it LOVES equipment.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

shermanido37 wrote: ↑
4 years ago
If you really want a flying tutor, there's Isperia the Inscrutable. Rather slow to get working, but still a valid option. It might also be good that she almost turns on Ephara by herself.

Lavinia is the only bear that I'm truly not certain about. The rest offer very relevant utility: Meddling Mage is there against commander reliant decks or against specific cards I know are coming, like Karador's creatures in the yard, Containment Priest is there against reanimation and opposing blink strats, which are plentiful, and Hushbringer pretty much counters utility creatures and creature combos entirely, plus it LOVES equipment.

This deck really wants another cheap creature tutor, e.g. recruiter for fliers or soldiers or something

So all of those bears are good, but they're also all expendable. The slots are always constrained to trying new things mostly means cutting some of the things that are mostly situationally good and seeing which other situationally good things are better.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

Two games in tonight;

Game 1 - (nezahal, hapatra and I don't know) I misplayed badly and we all got combo'd by the near-CEDH Nezahal deck. Basically I got boned by energy flux and made some sequencing mistakes. I was still in the game - would have won with intuition combo on my untap, with mana drain backup, but Nez took all the turns instead.

Game 2 - vs. Hapatra, Atla and Feather - This game went super long; I had a very slow start and got beat pretty low by doomed artisan beats and drain from sneks.

The game turned when after drawing 7 straight lands I drew an ephemerate for my archaeomancer, and was able to overload a cyclonic rift and then ephemerate archaeomancer lock the table. I did so many derpy things this game that showcase what the deck can do, with making my venser bounce itself off ephemerate to casting multiple dig through times, etc.

The Ephemerate + Archaeomancer engine is absolutely legit, they tried everything to beat it, up to and including black sun's for 6 --

At one point my board was:
Sun titan, phantasmal sun titan, archaeomancer

I cast whitemane lion saving archaeomancer, then ephemerated it blinking Sun Titan back to hand, venser'd the Kozile GDS someone cast, then ephemerated venser during my upkeep returning himself to hand, then archaoemancer'd ephemerate and sun titan'd the image back, getting whitemane.

I actually closed the game with Elesh Norn + Sun titans + Sword of feast and famine despite drawing around 30 cards off Ephara and seeing super deep off of double digs.

MeowZeDung · Post by **MeowZeDung** » 4 years ago

Sounds sweet man! Reminds me of when I played Ephara a year or two ago. The flicker, draw, bounce, and recursion nonsense is just so much fun, and that was before Ephemerate was available!

I'm curious, why don't you run Saltskitter? It gives you the same draw engine that Archaeomancer + Ephemerate does, but on one card with only one up front cost. I get that it doesn't really have any other use beyond triggering ephara, and it's vulnerable to removal/board wipes, but you will almost always have a way to protect it in this deck. I'm sure you've discussed it before, but I didn't see it anywhere in this thread after ctrl+f searching each page.

MeowZeDung · Post by **MeowZeDung** » 4 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Ephara "staples"
Saltskitter
Whitemane Lion
Deputy of Acquittals
The holy trinity of durdly Ephara creatures while they may draw a lot of cards are not threatening enough. They don't shut down other people's games and they often cost us major tempo. See Stonecloaker and Aetherling as the right way to do Ephara creatures - the former is graveyard hate, protects our guys, chump blocks fliers and flies, and the latter draws a card for U, dodges wraths, and provides some inevitability (especially if you clone it:).

In the same way that Ephara can't afford to be playing Fact or Fiction, she can't afford to be playing creatures who solely exist to draw cards--mana doesn't grow on trees.

NVM. It occured to me right after I hit "submit" that I didn't bother looking in the spoilers of the actual primer

Your rationale makes sense.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote: ↑
4 years ago
NVM. It occured to me right after I hit "submit" that I didn't bother looking in the spoilers of the actual primer

Your rationale makes sense.

That bit of the primer is fairly outdated, esp. since thinking has changed regarding Lion over the years (I do have a note on that in there but it's further down) specifically because of recruiter of the guard and even moreso with soulherder. Its clause of not targeting is relevant with phantasmal image and sometimes otherwise (still gets to get itself if they kill what you'd like to return).

Saltskitter actually I just had a very long discussion with someone about the other day (and some more in depth discussion in [mention]WizardMN[/mention]'s thread as well).

The general issue with Saltskitter is that it's not really that reliable, its board presence is horrid (since it's never a reliable blocker and sometimes can get blown out as an attacker by flash creatures). It does kind of what Skullclamp does; lets you generate a bunch of cards but doesn't do anything else. Saltskitter is going to underperform rhystic study in most games. Since all it does is draw cards it also has to be compared to straight up draw spells.

Every so often you'll run into a board where they can screw you out of saltskitter draws by not playing creatures. This is a horrible time to draw Saltskitter and it happens quite a bit (at least it did to me when I ran it).

The bounce creatures have the benefit of doing double duty; Cloaker protects a creature and hates graveyard, Whitemane lion protects a creature, etc. They're more mana intensive but Cloaker also is a very relevant body.

Still it's a good question and I'm happy to address in detail. I think Saltskitter is OK in budget builds and lower power metas where more creatures will be played. In my meta it's a virtual guarantee there's at least one deck that isn't committing to the board and sometimes one that just is not playing many creatures for some reason.

Edit: Something to remember about arch/ephemerate is it also provides a soft lock on the game with cyclonic rift and/or winds of abandon (since you get one instant/sorcery a turn cycle). Obviously it's two cards so the expectation is higher but the instants/sorceries are generally more impactful than the top card of our deck.

MeowZeDung · Post by **MeowZeDung** » 4 years ago

pokken wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Edit: Something to remember about arch/ephemerate is it also provides a soft lock on the game with cyclonic rift and/or winds of abandon (since you get one instant/sorcery a turn cycle). Obviously it's two cards so the expectation is higher but the instants/sorceries are generally more impactful than the top card of our deck.

Yeah, the rebound copy of ephemerate is easy to forget about if you haven't played with/against the card a bunch, which I haven't yet. It just went in my pauper cube, which already had archaeomancer, mulldrifter, and some other flicker goodies, and I can't wait for nonsense to ensue.

One other card I was surprised to see omitted was Stonehorn Dignitary. Had you run it previously and just not been impressed? I had several games with my old ephara deck where Rhino boss was the only thing keeping out of control creature decks from one shotting the table, and I usually could keep him protected and/or flickering long enough to find answers or a wincon of my own.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote: ↑
4 years ago
Yeah, the rebound copy of ephemerate is easy to forget about if you haven't played with/against the card a bunch, which I haven't yet. It just went in my pauper cube, which already had archaeomancer, mulldrifter, and some other flicker goodies, and I can't wait for nonsense to ensue.

One other card I was surprised to see omitted was Stonehorn Dignitary. Had you run it previously and just not been impressed? I had several games with my old ephara deck where Rhino boss was the only thing keeping out of control creature decks from one shotting the table, and I usually could keep him protected and/or flickering long enough to find answers or a wincon of my own.

Yeah, I have to really watch myself to get the ephemerate rebound

usually I stick it on top of my deck.

Stonehorn Dignitary can't be recruitered for, so it's very unreliable. There's no way to find it except to dig or get lucky, or stack an intuition package around it specifically (which is usually incorrect). That said, it straight up wins the game sometimes (some decks cannot beat displacer+dignitary). It's been on my list long enough that I have a foil set aside.

I was losing there to aggro decks quite a bit but since I went up a sweeper and added mystical tutor and archaeomancer I have been doing a lot better. That, and the combo finish being the more resilient altar.

The main thing I like about Stonehorn is being Reveillarkable, that is very nice. It is a lot less good without venser, the sojourner however.

I think in general the best Ephara plan for beating aggro is to repeatedly sweep the board or to combo finish. But it can surely be very good. I think the right swap for it is probably Cleansing Nova which is the worst sweeper by a good amount. I like having that option right now but it is really iffy.

Tl;DR - it's a very powerful card that could be played, currently not feeling the need for it due to being fairly high on sweepers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a completely unrelated note, since acquiring my Mishra's workshop I have been seriously considering rebuilding my Affinity deck as a second Ephara deck. Super fast artifact shenanigans with Ephara as the refueling engine for such BS as Hangarback walker and so on.

My Tymna and Ludevic deck has just atrocious mana and it gets on my nerves a lot.

shermanido37 · Post by **shermanido37** » 4 years ago

I'm looking into a second combo to back up the first:
Cloud of Faeries + Archaeomancer + Brought Back + Altar of Dementia.
Sac Arch and Cloud to the Altar then cast Brought Back targeting them. Arch returns BB to your hand while Cloud untaps the mana you just used.
It's worth mentioning that, like my first combo, each piece is tutorable by multiple cards, so it can be highly consistent. Also all pieces do things on their own which is an important point of a good combo.

This combo is related to a thought I had of Karoo lands, like Lotus Field and Azorius Chancery.
At first glance they can be pretty bad, but they actually make sense for our list. We have plenty of things that check our land count compared to our opponents' in order to give us card advantage, and Weathered Wayfarer in particular is important since it's a tutor for any land whatsoever, which I've found to be great. Initially I preferred Chancery to Field because it delays one land instead of two, but I'm not so sure now. Field can have a pretty sick combo with Brought Back that gets us 5 mana after a round of delay, plus it's hexproof so no Strip Mine shenanigans. I was also hesitant since it only generates one color, while I have plenty of multicolored, but I think that I can definitely manage that deficit.
Cloud of Faeries might seem like it's only good with them, but with blink engines and Ephara it can get pretty gross: Displacer becomes "(1): Draw a card.", while Soulherder becomes Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. There's one last reason I like it, and it's that I dream of one day where we run enough faeries to justify Spellstutter Sprite. That card is nuts.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

shermanido37 wrote: ↑
4 years ago
I'm looking into a second combo to back up the first:
Cloud of Faeries + Archaeomancer + Brought Back + Altar of Dementia.
Sac Arch and Cloud to the Altar then cast Brought Back targeting them. Arch returns BB to your hand while Cloud untaps the mana you just used.
It's worth mentioning that, like my first combo, each piece is tutorable by multiple cards, so it can be highly consistent. Also all pieces do things on their own which is an important point of a good combo.

This combo is related to a thought I had of Karoo lands, like Lotus Field and Azorius Chancery.
At first glance they can be pretty bad, but they actually make sense for our list. We have plenty of things that check our land count compared to our opponents' in order to give us card advantage, and Weathered Wayfarer in particular is important since it's a tutor for any land whatsoever, which I've found to be great. Initially I preferred Chancery to Field because it delays one land instead of two, but I'm not so sure now. Field can have a pretty sick combo with Brought Back that gets us 5 mana after a round of delay, plus it's hexproof so no Strip Mine shenanigans. I was also hesitant since it only generates one color, while I have plenty of multicolored, but I think that I can definitely manage that deficit.
Cloud of Faeries might seem like it's only good with them, but with blink engines and Ephara it can get pretty gross: Displacer becomes "(1): Draw a card.", while Soulherder becomes Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. There's one last reason I like it, and it's that I dream of one day where we run enough faeries to justify Spellstutter Sprite. That card is nuts.

Yeah, the brought back engine is legit for sure. I really do like lotus field and think it could be good enough if you were playing enough things to make it work (crucible probably would be good). All of those things sound really good to try to me.

I *love* spellstutter sprite in my Alela deck. It's great. In this deck I could see it being a pretty nasty lock, like a cheaper draining whelk with displacer. Probably need about 8-10 playable faeries for it to be for real though I think.

Soulherder/whitemane lion/spellstutter gets to be a pretty rough lock too. The soulherder/whitemane combo has saved my bacon a lot of times lately by resetting my venser, shaper savant.

I think it's a good point re: displacer too, the engine of 1: draw a card is pretty darned powerful with whitemane+pearl medallion, so probably worth considering.

I really wish we had more ways to find Displacer; I could see it being a pretty core engine to the deck, and running a few more ways to enable it, if it was more findable. All the ways other than intuition piles are pretty niche though.

shermanido37 · Post by **shermanido37** » 4 years ago

You are technically running Sun Titan which is great to overcome the deficits of Lotus Field.

I currently play 4 faeries: Artisans, Glen Elendra, Hushbringer, Brazen Borrower. If I were to go by your assumptions, I'd simply need to find 2 more playable faeries before slotting in Cloud and Spellstutter, and then we'd reach 8. Worth mentioning is that they are all recruitable, and plenty would be Muddlable.

Post by **pokken** » 4 years ago

shermanido37 wrote: ↑
4 years ago
You are technically running Sun Titan which is great to overcome the deficits of Lotus Field.

I currently play 4 faeries: Artisans, Glen Elendra, Hushbringer, Brazen Borrower. If I were to go by your assumptions, I'd simply need to find 2 more playable faeries before slotting in Cloud and Spellstutter, and then we'd reach 8. Worth mentioning is that they are all recruitable, and plenty would be Muddlable.

Re: Sun Titan -- since he can't be found we really would need another. I think if playing brought back it's pretty powerful though too. So just those two is probably enough.

I will say after playing ephemerate with archaeomancer I am a bit more on the brought back train. Even non-infinite, brought backing a dead archaeomancer is savage.

I've been on the faerie train before and I think vendilion clique, Sower of temptation, Mistbind Clique and cloudseeder are the most playable after the ones you have, with faerie impostor and quickling bringing up the rear. Hypnotic Sprite is not too bad either (depending on meta's efficiency).

The natural inclusions are probably sower, vendilion clique and hypnotic sprite, but I'm not sure.

shermanido37 · Post by **shermanido37** » 4 years ago

Sower is already in my maybeboard and considered, second easiest to slot in would be Cloudseeder in place of Scroll of Fate since both ditch cards for creatures - one is just more tutorable. You also forgot to mention Unsettled Mariner which technically meets the criteria and is also in my maybeboard.
I really like the idea of comboing Vendilion with Spirit of the Labyrinth for instant-speed Thoughtseize on the active player, but other than that they are pretty meh, and Mistbind is even worse when scaling to multiplayer than Vendilion.

My suggestion for a cut would be Mastery of the Unseen, the 4 mana token is just painful to look at for me, even the lifegain ability can whiff pretty consistently if you don't get creatures or if you can't find the mana to flip them.

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