Trigger Happy Heliod

Ertai Planeswalker · Post by **Ertai Planeswalker** » 3 years ago

TRIGGER HAPPY HELIOD

This deck is all about getting lifegain triggers, and getting payoffs for those lifegain triggers. A notable subset of these payoffs come in the form of creature tokens (see the Token Maker category) which will in turn trigger more lifegain triggers. I asked for feedback to help make some cuts and the deck I build at that point is still included in the spoiler box below. After getting excellented feedback - especially from but not limited to @pokken and @darrenhabib it came to the list below. I will contemplate it some more on the weekend and then probably start ordering cards next week. So if you have any advice based on the current list, please let me know!

Trigger Happy Heliod 2.0

Approximate Total Cost:

SPOILER

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I want to add the cards listed under the category Maybeboard because I think it will improve the deck, but at this point I don't really know what to cut.

So which cards would you cut from the maindeck to add which cards from the Maybeboard?

Trigger Happy Heliod

Commander (1)

1 Heliod, Sun-Crowned

Lifegain Trigger (17)

1 Ajani's Welcome

1 Ashes of the Abhorrent

1 Auriok Champion

1 Authority of the Consuls

1 Blind Obedience

1 Daxos, Blessed by the Sun

1 Linden, the Steadfast Queen

1 Soul Warden

1 Sun Droplet

Life Synergy (6)

1 Sunbond

Token Maker (8)

1 Ajani, Strength of the Pride

1 Angelic Accord

1 Crested Sunmare

1 Griffin Aerie

1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

1 Hangarback Walker

1 Regna, the Redeemer

1 Resplendent Angel

Noncombat Wins (3)

1 Aetherflux Reservoir

1 Felidar Sovereign

1 Test of Endurance

Ramp (5)

1 Cartographer's Hawk

1 Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale

1 Pearl Medallion

1 Smothering Tithe

1 Sword of the Animist

Removal (10)

1 Cavalier of Dawn

1 Crovax, Ascendant Hero

1 Crush Contraband

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

1 Generous Gift

1 Heliod's Intervention

1 Path to Exile

1 Return to Dust

1 Shinewend

1 Swords to Plowshares

Card Draw (8)

1 Land Tax

1 Well of Lost Dreams

Resilience (4)

1 Emeria Shepherd

1 Sun Titan

1 Sword of Light and Shadow

1 Together Forever

Other (1)

1 Enlightened Tutor

Land (37)

1 Bonders' Enclave

1 Castle Ardenvale

1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin

1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

1 High Market

1 Legion's Landing // Adanto, the First Fort

1 Miren, the Moaning Well

1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

1 Petrified Field

28 Plains

Maybeboard (7)

1 Ranger-Captain of Eos

1 Recruiter of the Guard

1 Selfless Spirit

Approximate Total Cost:

Changelog:
-1 Serra Avatar, +1 Together Forever
-1 Alhammarret's Archive , +1 Enlightened Tutor

MeowZeDung · Post by **MeowZeDung** » 3 years ago

I like Knight of the White Orchid, Solemn Simulacrum, and/or Kor Cartographer for ramp in white creature decks, and they play nice with Karmic Guide/Reveillark/a sac outlet.

I'd run one of them over Drake Haven or Ophidian Eye which are blue and shouldn't be in your Heliod deck

You could check out my Daxos, Blessed by the Sun deck (link in sig) or @OCPunisher's Heliod or Oketra list for ideas. There's also @ISBPathfinder's mono white thread. . . somewhere.

DirkGently · Post by **DirkGently** » 3 years ago

Overall it looks pretty solid to me. I recently played a heliod deck that did pretty well, although it focused more on control.

I mostly wanted to chime in to say that I disagree with MeowZeDung about ramp for this deck. Heliod costs 3 and he probably wants to be your turn 3 play almost every game. That makes knight of the white orchid a pretty awkward play because you can't play it on 2 unless someone in front of you in turn order played Rampant Growth or similar. Overall the deck has a fairly low curve, or should, since you're counting on combat as your wincon, so ramping from 4-6 just isn't that important. Instead of playing a do-nothing 4-drop that ramps, you could start setting up lifegain engines and good places to dump counters. Reveillark also doesn't make a ton of sense and feels like a goodstuff inclusion to me, for a deck that doesn't need goodstuff and can be very focused.

I do agree that you should probably cut ophidian eye and drake haven, though, lol. Were those typos?

As far as positive suggestions, I'd cut down on the higher end stuff that doesn't do enough. Alhammarret's Archive is a prime example. Heliod triggers on any lifegain, gaining extra life doesn't make him (or most of your other synergies) better. Serra Avatar is likewise a bit expensive clunker that you can't easily get through. Sure, it kill someone if it hits, but good luck hitting anyone with a creature that has no evasion or protection. I'd push towards lower-end stuff that will give you more efficient value and synergize better, like Serra Ascendant and Together Forever. You can take a list if you like, it's in my signature. There are some things I'd probably change though.

MeowZeDung · Post by **MeowZeDung** » 3 years ago

100% agree those aren't ramping into Heliod, but I would still strongly consider one of them (not Knight, that's fair) in any deck running Emeria, the Sky Ruin, especially given mono white loves some lark/guide/titan combos.

Ertai Planeswalker · Post by **Ertai Planeswalker** » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I'd run one of them over Drake Haven or Ophidian Eye which are blue and shouldn't be in your Heliod deck

DirkGently wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I do agree that you should probably cut ophidian eye and drake haven, though, lol. Were those typos?

Lol, these are Griffin Aerie and Light of Promise . I build my decks on Archidekt and it doesn't have these cards working yet so I took these two as placeholder cards so the CMC and type stats would still line up. I just forgot to change them after porting over the decklist.

MeowZeDung wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I like Knight of the White Orchid, Solemn Simulacrum, and/or Kor Cartographer for ramp in white creature decks, and they play nice with Karmic Guide/Reveillark/a sac outlet.

DirkGently wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I mostly wanted to chime in to say that I disagree with MeowZeDung about ramp for this deck. Heliod costs 3 and he probably wants to be your turn 3 play almost every game. That makes knight of the white orchid a pretty awkward play because you can't play it on 2 unless someone in front of you in turn order played Rampant Growth or similar. Overall the deck has a fairly low curve, or should, since you're counting on combat as your wincon, so ramping from 4-6 just isn't that important.

I feel the same as @DirkGently on this, though testing will need to prove what works.

DirkGently wrote: ↑
3 years ago
As far as positive suggestions, I'd cut down on the higher end stuff that doesn't do enough. Alhammarret's Archive is a prime example. Heliod triggers on any lifegain, gaining extra life doesn't make him (or most of your other synergies) better.

While that is true, I included it because I have a few cards that trigger of getting 3, 4, or 5 life in a single turn. This will help me get there more easily and is also the only reason I run Shattered Angel. The fact it helps out with card draw doesn't hurt either. That said, I don't have one yet so I can easily choose not to run it... yet?

DirkGently wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Serra Avatar is likewise a bit expensive clunker that you can't easily get through. Sure, it kill someone if it hits, but good luck hitting anyone with a creature that has no evasion or protection. I'd push towards lower-end stuff that will give you more efficient value and synergize better, like Serra Ascendant and Together Forever.

I'm torn on the Avatar: I know it's clunky but since Heliod can give it lifelink, doubling my life total was never easier. And since I am running 3 wincons depending on getting a high life total the avatar is the prime way to get there I think. Or do you think this deck would be able to get to 50+ without much trouble even when getting picked on? I will take advice as it comes, I will remove it for Together Forever,

Serra Ascendant I actually have, it just didn't come to mind earlier. Mostly because in my experience it's kind of a trap card: everytime I get it early, or at least when I'm at 30+ life, getting me below 30 somehow becomes the collective goal of my opponents, proper threat assessment be damned. Just how turn 1 Sol Ring is good in theory but actually lowers your chance of winning in practice, so does Serra Ascendant appear to be a powerful play that will turn around and bite you in the ass.

Post by **ISBPathfinder** » 3 years ago

Some things I don't like:

Sun Droplet - It puts too much control in your opponents hands. This isn't a creature either so you need your opponents to attack you for it to start doing things. Lifegain tactics are already GREAT vs aggro strategies but weak to control strategies which I think this card reiterates. It TOTALLY sucks vs control effects and is good against something you are already good against.
Rhox Faithmender - Its winmore. You care about getting lifegain triggers, not how big they are. He is terrible at actually gaining life so he requires you to set up other lifegain effects which ends up being poor to sweepers and control. Lifegain is already good vs aggro so don't try to gain more life. You need things that trigger lifegain for you.
Noble Purpose - Its a bit lacking from the standpoint that you probably want to have several good sized creatures for this to work. It is another card that in my mind needs too many cards set up to do much. Its also like, 1/10th as good as True Conviction for almost the same mana.
Ajani's Welcome it doesn't do enough. Run any of the rangers to go get Soul Warden / Soul's Attendant instead and you should be better off.
Ashes of the Abhorrent its going to be way too hard to control that trigger and too often I feel like its going to be a case of the wrath happens and you have to put all the counters on Heliod. I don't like this because I don't feel like you can control it. It also doesn't do enough / trigger enough if you ask me.
Authority of the Consuls Its ok, but its not a creature so it requires you to have other targets to put the counters on. Also, I still think I would rather just have a Ranger for your one drops.
Angel of Vitality Literally nothing about what this card does sounds appealing to me.
Sunbond this sort of aura screams "I get swept super hard".
Light of Promise this sort of aura screams "I get swept super hard".
Path to Exile I don't see NEARLY enough card draw in this deck which is why I am going to point at your one for one spot removal. I don't think you can support Swords to Plowshares either to be honest. As your card draw gets better these removal effects are great but if you can't draw sufficiently I don't think I can support someone running them.

Some suggestions to add:

Equipment - Assuming you can afford it adding more to your equipment package would be nice. I see three equipment right now. I generally would say 3-5 equipment tends to be a good place for an equipment package but assuming you want to go there and can afford it.... Stoneforge Mystic / Steelshaper's Gift / Open the Armory are all quite reasonable cards as well. You don't have any draw equipment right now so I would say Sword of Fire and Ice would be a great pickup if you can afford one. I also tend to like Umezawa's Jitte for killing utility commanders and or tokens. I realize I just suggested you add like.... $150 to your list so I totally get it if that isn't doable.
Tutor Creatures - Add the Recruiter / Rangers to the deck. There is just so many amazing targets for them that are hard to replicate in numbers.
Mind's Eye - Its an upfront investment but its still one of the best draw options you get in mono white. Drawing an extra three cards a turn as a baseline even at the cost of a few mana is still super efficient. Even when you get an optimal Well of Lost Dreams its still barely more efficient than this card.
Aura of Silence - I don't think I ever don't run this card in mono white. Its a good answer and it slows opponents down. Being able to recur it with Sun Titan / Emeria Shepherd / Hall of Heliod's Generosity
Sweepers - ok..... you have zero sweepers right now in a mono white deck. I feel like at a minimum you could consider Mass Calcify, Austere Command, or Tragic Arrogance as they can sort of be sculpted around the most important parts of your board.

You need more draw for sure. I would push sort of hard to do that and remove those aruas which just scream to be card advantage swept. When it comes to a lifegain deck like this your worst enemy is almost always going to be the control deck because they don't care that you are gaining life. The aggro player is already on an uphill battle against lifegain so focus on beating the control player instead.

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » 3 years ago

Ranger of Eos is mega-awesome in this deck. It'd be mega-awesome even if it was only tutoring for the Soul Sisters because the Sisters are so bonkers in this deck. But it also tutors for Walking Ballista if you want the combo, and Hangarback Walker if you don't. Oh, and Serra Ascendant, Mother of Runes, and Weathered Wayfarer (who I highly recommend as a sort of "draw" engine) all of whom are pretty spicy. Recruiter of the Guard is similarly awesome as it can hit all of that but also Triskelion for combo redundancy or Mentor of the Meek to find a draw engine.

I also want to shout-out to Tome of Legends which has been a rock-solid draw engine in my wife's HeliGod deck. Draw is crucial to this deck, as the only time it loses is when it runs out of steam before it can kill and threaten everyone.

It's slower ramp, but I will also say that my wife has generally been happy with Altar of the Pantheon accelerating her into her endgame once Heliod is down.

I second most of ISB's recommeded cuts, except for Path to Exile (but I like removal a lot more than he seems to me) and Ajani's Welcome (which is clearly worse than the Sisters and probably also worse than Daxos, Blessed by the Sun and Suture Priest but contributes to Devotion in a way I find valuable). I'm also not overly fond of Sunscorch Regent or Shattered Angel even though they are lots of triggers; past the 4 CMC slot in this deck, I'm more fond of Sun Titan or big token maker effects. In particular, Secure the Wastes and Reverent Hoplite have been pretty good to her.

AstralMTG · Post by **AstralMTG** » 3 years ago

Another Heliod player here. I also don't play infinite combos.

I can confirm what Hawk and ISB are talking about with Ranger of Eos, Ranger-Captain of Eos, and Recruiter of the Guard. They are awesome as they grant us a really strong toolbox. Most of the time I search up either Soul Warden or Soul's Attendant because they are disgusting here, but I also can get Serra Ascendant or the new Speaker of the Heavens if I need a threat. Also, Mother of Runes and Giver of Runes are available if we need to protect creatures or get past blockers. There's a lot of options. Almost all the creatures in my deck are tutorable with Recruiter too.

While I agree with a lot of what ISB is saying, one card that has been an overperformer for me is Authority of the Consuls. It isn't a creature, but that makes it much harder to remove. Having opponent's creatures come into play tapped is very underrated as it hoses haste and allows is to get in past a would-be blockers. I always gain tons of life off of it as nobody removes it because there's always a bigger threat on the table. Remember, we can always put counters on Heliod. He's a great voltron commander if we need him to be.

Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares has always been great for me in commander. Sometimes we need a surgical tool instead of a nuke. But with that said, board wraths are crucial for success. My choices are Austere Command and Dusk // Dawn. They are very versatile and our little creatures can dodge them. I am considering adding more catch all wraths such Wrath of God and Hour of Revelation, but haven't really needed them in the matches I've played so far.

Two cards that haven't been mentioned that I have had great success with is Animation Module and Storm Herd. The Module has crazy synergy with Heliod and any soul sister effect. Every time I've played it, it has essentially read: Pay 1, get a 1/1, gain a life, get a +1/+1 counter. Storm Herd is one of my finishers. (I have chosen not to run Reservoir, Sovereign, or Test of Endurance). Personally, I love it as it usually kills on the spot if you have heliod plus a soul sister effect. If not, the table needs a wrath or its game over. 10 mana is a lot for mono white, but I haven't had any issues yet.

If you want, I would be happy to post my list for reference.

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 3 years ago

Excellent start. You've defined a general theme (life gain) and you've set a major goal in generating tokens.

Now you have other focuses in the deck and this is where you need to be careful that you don't dilute what your actual goal is.

So let's look at your "Life Synergy" section.
Now certainly Archangel of Thune synergies with your tokens theme..tick.
However do you feel that single big creatures would not be enough of an impact when you have no evasion that I can see?
Maybe a Sword of Light and Shadow can push through damage on an Orzhov deck, but otherwise there is a general sense that the are pretty limited in their ability to effect the game in a major way.
Cradle of Vitality is interesting in that it allows creatures to get very big and I see the combos with putting those counters on Hangarback Walker, Mindless Automaton, Etched Oracle.
Similar you could put Sunbond/Light of Promise on these, but Auras can lead to a 2-for-1 blowouts with removal.
Angel of Vitality is a life gain amplifier and I highlight this later on.
The others don't actually fit your major goal or really provide much synergy.

So let's focus back on the token generating. What I like to do is break down what is actually required during a game in order for cards to work.
Griffin Aerie needs 3 life. Angelic Accord needs 4 life. Crested Sunmare needs any life gain. Regna, the Redeemer needs any life gain. Resplendent Angel needs 5 life gain.
All except the Griffin Aerie trigger on every players end step. Now its easy to gain life during your own turn, lets just say that's a given.
So a big focus will be on how to you achieve gaining the X life during each of your opponents turns to get the best possible results from these cards?
Here are the cards I've identified that can gain you life during opponents turns.
Ashes of the Abhorrent, Auriok Champion, Authority of the Consuls, Shattered Angel, Soul Warden, Soul's Attendant, Sun Droplet, Sunscorch Regent, Aetherflux Reservoir, Heliod's Intervention, Blind Obedience.
These are ones that might trigger life gain; Noble Purpose, Righteous Cause.

So these will trigger Crested Sunmare and Regna, the Redeemer individually.
But in order to gain the 4 and 5 life for Angelic Accord and Resplendent Angel you need a combination of these cards.
You've added some amplifiers in Alhammarret's Archive, Rhox Faithmender, Angel of Vitality.
But if I'm being honest I don't really like these cards in general because they don't really synergies with anything else. The life gain triggers are the most important part to the deck.

An example board could be the Souls sisters in Soul Warden and Soul's Attendant. If an opponents casts 2 creatures then you'll gain 4 life triggering the Angelic Accord, but still fail on the Resplendent Angel.
The thing is that its actually pretty hard to get them to trigger. My point being that you just want to make sure you focus on the math when thinking about card inclusions.
What other cards make it possible to achieve this 4 or 5 life each players turn?
Celestial Force, Drogskol Cavalry, Mastery of the Unseen, Planeswalker's Mirth.
All pretty expensive, not really too enticing unfortunately.
Mastery of the Unseen is interesting however as card advantage and life-gain, but you need to invest the mana and this deck is very hungry on mana needs.

So I'll pose the question, what is the easiest way to gain life during an opponents turn?
Well it would be if they actually were forced to attack into you.
Blocking with your creatures that have lifelink and triggering cards like Noble Purpose and Righteous Cause.
What would force your opponents to attack you?
Gideon Jura and Gideon, Battle-Forged can do it.
However any planeswalker can really put the pressure on your opponents to attack. If they don't then you can look to ultimate them which of course is winning, otherwise they are forced to eventually send creatures your way.
You already have Ajani, Strength of the Pride and Elspeth, Sun's Champion so no harm looking at some more.
Ajani, Caller of the Pride ultimate goes with the theme of creating tokens, albeit it be a little excessive. If you've put 6x +1/+1 counters on Heliod the [-3] is actually threatening lethal damage.
Elspeth Tirel creates tokens, gains life and the ultimate is a board sweeper, while potentially keeping your token army and Heliod intact.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant ultimate is hard to beat, and does create a token each turn.
Gideon of the Trials is actually a really dominate card if opponents are not prepared to deal with it. I've lost games due to opponents playing it and I have a combo deck that doesn't play many creatures, and had very few ways of targeted removal. It surprisingly does a lot of work in stopping combo decks.
Karn, the Great Creator can be a good hoser to some decks for sure.

Anointed Procession is a way to double your token generation.

What else? Another thing I like to do is focus on the synergy of card types themselves.
You have a lot of creature triggers, whether that is entering the battlefield or attacking/blocking. Equipment requires creatures.
I mention this because when you might prepare for cuts, you prioritize often based on card type.
Ajani's Welcome, Ashes of the Abhorrent, Authority of the Consuls are not quite as good as their creature counterparts as far as creating triggers themselves.

Skullclamp is a must with all the token generating, to the point where Stoneforge Mystic is good.

On that note your maybeboard has lots of tutoring effects.
I like to figure out how versatile they are and also whether that effects other card selections.
When I build a deck I'll often want my tutors to be able to handle anything at that given time.

Lets look at Recruiter of the Guard. It can get some Soul Sisters life gainers, Cartographer's Hawk, Shinewend, Mentor of the Meek, Etched Oracle, Mindless Automaton. Lets also say it can get Stoneforge Mystic.
So essential smallball life-gain, card draw, land ramp, enchantment removal, equipment.
Often I want tutors to have silver bullets for a variety of situations.
Can it get creature removal? Can it get artifact removal? Graveyard hate, etc.
So looks at some sliver bullets in white that Recruiter of the Guard could get; Banisher Priest, False Prophet, Leonin Relic-Warder, Mangara of Corondor, Palace Jailer, Remorseful Cleric, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Stonecloaker.
One of these stands out as a cross synergy card to me and that's Palace Jailer. Becoming the monarch is another way to entice forcing attacks on you and its also card draw. With your token army you'll always be able to get it back as well.

Ranger of Eos and Ranger-Captain of Eos can get your one or less drops; Hangarback Walker, Soul Warden, Soul's Attendant.
They are pretty limited in versatility at this stage. Of course they could get Walking Ballista..hehe.
I like to do the research and again see what sliver bullets/unique cards that these could search for; Hope of Ghirapur, Planar Guide, Sacred Guide, Serra Ascendant, Soldier of the Pantheon, Spurnmage Advocate, Tragic Poet, Vigilant Martyr, Weathered Wayfarer, Mother of Runes.
Interestingly in your maybeboard you've put Expedition Map and Mother of Runes. Weathered Wayfarer would be an alternative to Expedition Map.
Is searching for lands good in your deck? Really only Hall of Heliod's Generosity and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx seem good to me. Emeria, the Sky Ruin takes ages before that triggers, so its not often that you would actually search it up.
Bonders' Enclave, Castle Ardenvale, High Market, Miren, the Moaning Well are fine but pretty unexciting specifically for card slot for searching.
Is Mother of Runes and/or Selfless Spirit good in this deck? You don't really need to protect Heliod so lets list creatures really worth protecting; Archangel of Thune, Shattered Angel, Sunscorch Regent, Crested Sunmare, Regna, the Redeemer, Resplendent Angel, Felidar Sovereign, Emeria Shepherd, Sun Titan. Of course with Selfless Spirit you can also save your very wide token board.
These creatures are pretty important to your game plan, so it does seem worth while.
Note that Recruiter of the Guard could get Ranger of Eos as a way to proxy search to get more value.

Another element I want to touch upon is that your "Resilience" cards are very reliant on what opponents do. That is you don't actually have a proactive game plan for them.
Emeria Shepherd, Sun Titan, Sword of Light and Shadow, Together Forever all can get back cards, mainly creatures from graveyard, but unless opponents have specifically killed them, they won't have targets.
This is where cards that sacrifice can be used for advantages.
Examples of this is Ranger-Captain of Eos and Selfless Spirit. You can sacrifice Ranger-Captain of Eos say in your turn to make sure opponents can't can't counter your stuff, and then return it immediately with graveyard recursion.
Same with Selfless Spirit you can use it to save creatures more often when you know you have more access to recursion.
ETB creatures are also much better with graveyard recursion. Currently you only have Cavalier of Dawn and Sun Titan as ETB creatures that are not just life-gain triggers.
Now Recruiter of the Guard, Ranger of Eos, Ranger-Captain of Eos all have ETB...ahhh you see where I'm going with all this, cross synergy my good man.

You have one last tutor in the deck with Enlightened Tutor. Same rules apply, figure out what it can do for you and whether you can slot cards in that can be a silver bullet for a given situation.
So there are all the life-gain enchantments. Some win cons in Aetherflux Reservoir and Test of Endurance. Lots of card draw artifacts and enchantments. Lots of mana fixing. Token generators. Equipment.
How about if you desperately needed removal? This is where it pays to look at artifacts or enchantments that provide removal.
There are plenty of options like Grasp of Fate, Quarantine Field, Conclave Tribunal for example.
The one I like for this particular deck however is Elspeth Conquers Death. The reason being that it also doubles up as a reanimation card.
So here is an example where you can get more out of your deck by replacing a good card like Crush Contraband with Elspeth Conquers Death and you can squeeze out more consistency with having access to answers.
Plus you can keep recurring it with Hall of Heliod's Generosity for continuous answers and reanimation.

Alright so lets get to the real crux of this deck, mana and casting all these beefy spells. The mana curve of the deck is pretty heafty, and so card draw is completely ineffective if you can't cast even half the cards in your hand.
Heliod, Sun-Crowned requires 1w to give lifelink.
Dawn of Hope, Mentor of the Meek, Well of Lost Dreams all require investing mana into drawing.
Blind Obedience and Cradle of Vitality wants to leave up a mana as well.
Then we are casting tons of 5 cmc or more spells; True Conviction, Sunscorch Regent, Felidar Sovereign, Shattered Angel, Righteous Cause, Archangel of Thune, Crested Sunmare, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Regna, the Redeemer, Cavalier of Dawn, Crovax, Ascendant Hero, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Emeria Shepherd, Sun Titan.
Its fair to say that you are never going to be able to cast all the spells you draw in this deck as its just not setup enough to do it.
So at least one of three things needs to happen;

Lower the mana curve of the deck by cutting some of the more expensive cards.
Figure out a way for more mana sources either by land ramp or artifact sources.
Find ways to cheat them into play.

Currently Emeria Shepherd is the only way to cheat them into play, and you don't have any discard outlets, so its pretty limited in that respect to a proactive plan.

One of the better plans you do have is to use Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx along with quite a few cards that give you devotion to white.
That's where cards like Linden, the Steadfast Queen, Daxos, Blessed by the Sun, Cavalier of Dawn, Resplendent Angel look nice in this deck.
Then I'm liking the Weathered Wayfarer more as it can be searched by Recruiter of the Guard, Ranger of Eos, Ranger-Captain of Eos. This gives you a lot of access to Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx.

Some cheap artifact mana will help, Sol Ring for starters. That's why I get paid the big bucks for finding niche cards, lol.

Let's look at some additional land ramp options. Burnished Hart can be a little slow, but it is another sacrifice creature, meaning it has synergy with your graveyard recursion package.
It combos with Emeria Shepherd in that you can bring it straight back into play with the triggers with the Plains you searched.
Walking Atlas is another card that I often use in non-green decks for the land ramp potential. Certainly with enough card draw you can always make use of it.
Another really spicy option is Settle the Wreckage. With your tokens you can use it to actually do a massive land ramp. You are happy to trade off tokens for land, its always the more successful long term goal and Wreckage also can double up as creature removal on opponents if they get frisky, and remember we are setting up the deck to force more attacks from opponents.

Other options are mana doublers in Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power, Caged Sun.
Extraplanar Lens and Gauntlet of Power suggest the sort of maximum number of basic lands for the build.

Another thing is that when you play Sun Titan you really want to play as many fetch-lands as possible so that it can specifically provide you land ramp as an option. Sorry its very expensive but you really want Arid Mesa, Flooded Strand, Marsh Flats, Windswept Heath, Prismatic Vista and maybe Fabled Passage.

So to sum this up these are the cards that I'm not that keen on;
Ajani's Pridemate, Angel of Vitality, Light of Promise, Sunbond, Sun Droplet, Ajani's Welcome, Ashes of the Abhorrent, Authority of the Consuls, Noble Purpose, Rhox Faithmender, True Conviction, Gift of Estates, Crush Contraband, Return to Dust, Endless Atlas.

These are the cards I like;
Anointed Procession, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Gideon of the Trials, Skullclamp, Stoneforge Mystic, Recruiter of the Guard, Ranger of Eos, Ranger-Captain of Eos, Weathered Wayfarer, Mother of Runes, Selfless Spirit, Palace Jailer, Burnished Hart, Walking Atlas, Settle the Wreckage, Sol Ring, Elspeth Conquers Death.

There is a 3 cards difference, and because its a more streamlined game plan I feel confident that you can run 35 lands,
At this stage I'm not sure what the other 2 cuts would be, I'd need to think about it more

Note that adding small-ball creatures like Stoneforge Mystic, Weathered Wayfarer, Mother of Runes, Selfless Spirit, Walking Atlas makes equipping Sword of the Animist, Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale, Sword of Light and Shadow a much more consistent plan.

Just some small edges you can get out of lands perhaps is Mirrorpool.
The reason is that you can copy your token generators in Crested Sunmare or Resplendent Angel.
Interestingly if you copy Crested Sunmare then they'll both give each other indestructible.
But unfortunately your deck doesn't have many colorless sources (Bonders' Enclave, High Market, Miren, the Moaning Well, Petrified Field, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Sol Ring) but that might be enough.
Also Winding Canyons is an option with Felidar Sovereign as a win condition. I've tried to win with Felidar Sovereign in the past, and oh boy is it hard to get it to survive or retain your life total over 40 when opponents have a full turn each to deal with it! To be honest never pulled it off. So if you can do the surprise factor of flashing it in just before your turn you might have more success there.

OCPunisher · Post by **OCPunisher** » 3 years ago

I'll join the fray of Heliod players as well. A few random thoughts to correlate what's already been said:
- My list has been combo-free for a week or two now, and I don't miss it. The combo was easy to assemble, but it wasn't very much fun after the second or third time.
- The Rangers n Recruiters are awesome, no question about it. It'd be like playing mono-green without Green Sun's Zenith, Chord of Calling, and Finale of Devastation.
- Mother of Runes has been less impressive for me, to the extent that I don't run her or her offspring. If I'm digging for a one-drop, it's gonna be Serra Ascendant, a Soul Sister, Hangarback Walker, or the new Speaker of the Heavens.
- Authority of the Consuls has over-performed for me as well. It's not a game-winner or anything, but it's solid enough to have earned its spot.
- Ajani's Pridemate isn't worth it. It's a vanilla body with no special abilities, no matter how big it is.
- Sunbond and Light of Promise are even worse because they're auras.

I'll have to pick up a copy of the Cartographer's Hawk.

Ertai Planeswalker · Post by **Ertai Planeswalker** » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Excellent start...

...So if you can do the surprise factor of flashing it in just before your turn you might have more success there.

First off thank you for taking the time for such an extensive post! The kind of analysis the kind of thing I used to do but somehow lost. I hope I get it back, but for now I'll rely on you and the other forum experts. I've taken most of your advice to heart, as you can see in the updated list.

I like a few more walkers and the logic behind it. I really like the inclusion of Gideon of the Trials in particular as I fell in love with the card when it came out but never found a good home for it.
I removed Resplendent Angel because as you said it's hard to trigger. It's also an expensive card and I would need to buy a second copy so I'm fine with leaving it out for now.
I also took out Felidar Sovereign. Mostly because as you said it's hard too pull of but it's also very expensive to cast at 6 cmc and I can't tutor for it.
I did not add the mana doublers, mostly because everybody in my playgroup plays a healthy dose of removal. It's very rare that you get to untap with these, so I'd rather play other cards that do not immediately draw removal. Your meta may vary of course.
While I own one copy of each of the fetches with white, I'd rather save them for use in my multicolor decks where they can combine with shocklands and I do not have the budget to buy another set of them. Perhaps one day WotC will finally reprint them in sufficient quantity to get their price to shockland level and then maybe I will buy additional ones. Of course I could add Evolving Wilds and/or Terramorphic Expanse instead of a plains but I think with my curve being as low as it is the CIPT clause is too much of a drawback.
I'm a little scared of running only 35 lands but I'll take your word for it.
I fell i should have some more recursion in order to be able to really into it as a strategy but I do not know with what cards let alone what to cut. Not to be too greedy, but do you have any thoughts on that perhaps?

Again, thanks!

darrenhabib · Post by **darrenhabib** » 3 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I feel i should have some more recursion in order to be able to really into it as a strategy but I do not know with what cards let alone what to cut. Not to be too greedy, but do you have any thoughts on that perhaps?

As I mentioned, you are not really setup majorly for a proactive plan with your recursion. There are no ways to put cards in your graveyard from your library and you only have one discard outlet in Mindless Automaton and you don't have a creature sacrifice outlet either.
Your only source of you getting things into your graveyard are Burnished Hart, Ranger-Captain of Eos, Selfless Spirit.

OK, so your meta might play lots if sweepers, and this is what you're focusing on for getting value from recursion.
I really don't like this way of building decks however. Sure having one or two really solid ways of bringing stuff back is fine, but you look to dilute the game plan of the deck too much unless you support your themes.
So if I'm being honest the recursion theme in the deck is already weaker because the deck major goal is life-gain and token making, going big and going wide.
Does recursion bring back your tokens after a board wipe? No.
If you want to have a really good reanimation theme, then it starts conflicting with your major goals (of this deck). I know I keep harping on about this, but it really is how people fall into building decks that don't quite fire on cylinders because they can't resist doing as many things as possible.

Right so if you were to build a better recursion sub-theme then you'd want some number of discard outlets, so that you can put cards like Crovax, Ascendant Hero and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite into your graveyard.
Cho-Arrim Alchemist, Devout Witness, Peace of Mind, Thraben Standard Bearer, Tonic Peddler, Vengeful Dreams, Smuggler's Copter look like good options for this decks theme.

As far as recursion there are options but they all need to be built around.
I have Return to the Ranks in my Heliod deck, but my build has tons of targets. Yours is far more limited in targets.
Same thing with Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle if you have a lot of targets and you can cast lots of legendary and artifacts then it can do a lot of work. But doesn't seem well setup for you.
Idol of Endurance could be a fine options, but incredible reactive you have to wait until a sweeper has happened then play it out, then activate it each time, and its not like your 3 cmc are the things you massively want to target.
Grimoire of the Dead gives you discard and the means to bring stuff back.
Karmic Guide is always a solid card, but I'll harp back to then you sort of lean into having Reveillark and a sacrifice outlet to be an actual white reanimation deck, which isn't the goal of the deck.
Loyal Retainers is nice if you have a lot of big fatty legends, but you really need the discard in order for it to be good.
I will say that Sevinne's Reclamation is a really good land ramp card if you did play all the fetch-lands. You can think of this as white's Cultivate except way more powerful as you can bring back other key cards like Skullclamp if removed.
Replenish could be used, but you have trimmed on the enchantments so only 13 now in the deck, and again you have no real way of putting cards into your graveyard so becomes limited in scope.
Luminous Broodmoth is by far the best as far as no real setup and not require investing further mana.

I've build several mono-white reanimation decks, but that's what they are designed to do and so have all the supporting cards for it.

My suggestion is to focus on protecting your board instead, as I say you can't bring tokens back from the dead.
So Flawless Maneuver and Teferi's Protection are the better way to go.
I do like Sevinne's Reclamation as an option, but wait until you've saved up and got those fetches into the deck, so maybe down the line. Something to look forward to if you do end up liking your Heliod deck.

As far as reanimation, look to lean on Emeria, the Sky Ruin for your late game as you've got some decent land ramp in this deck.
Now admittedly I'd like to see the fetches to go along with Sun Titan and Sevinne's Reclamation for this plan..in time my friend, in time.
But you can play Myriad Landscape as your silver bullet for this, with the old Weathered Wayfarer giving you access to this.

On a different topic more cards that I like for the deck are Abzan Battle Priest, Odric, Lunarch Marshal, Mangara, the Diplomat.
The reason for Abzan Battle Priest and Odric, Lunarch Marshal is that your creatures don't actually have lifelink, you have to spend mana on each one with Heliod, which is very mana intensive. So these guys give you the lifelink. In Odric, Lunarch Marshal case you just need to give one of your creatures lifelink to give it to them all. Also if Heliod is a creature then they all get Indestructible as well.
Mangara, the Diplomat plays into the "damned if they do damned if they don't" with your planeswalkers, and honestly I've played with Kraum, Ludevic's Opus before and often its just a draw 3 cards a turn round in a 4 player, seriously.

Also I feel like the card draw is still better than the mana, that is you'll always have cards in hand and action and mana will be your bottleneck at all times.
So Crystalline Crawler would serve you better than Etched Oracle. Even though you get a better ration of +1/+1 counters to draw with Oracle compared to Mindless Automaton, the fact that Automaton doesn't require mana to activate and also has the discard portion is great with your recursion.

So in collusion I further like Flawless Maneuver, Teferi's Protection, Abzan Battle Priest, Odric, Lunarch Marshal, Mangara, the Diplomat, Crystalline Crawler, Myriad Landscape.

As far as cuts now that I look at it more, your tokens should get large relatively quickly, so actually sacrificing them to Settle the Wreckage isn't as appealing as I first estimated. So just cut that for starters

Giver of Runes could be excessive.
Blind Obedience does require investing mana, and now that you have cut the Resplendent Angel trying to gain the 4 or 5 life during opponents turns isn't quite as important. Before I had in mind casting spells to get that 3 life during opponents turns. You don't have any other stax effects either, so its natural ability to tap creatures and artifacts literally isn't that taxing. Its a hard cut, but I'm struggling to find slots.

I'm not sure what the last two cuts could be. If it was my own deck eventually I'd come to the conclusion that Test of Endurance is going to fall under the same problem as Felidar Sovereign.
The thing is that your deck is about triggers, and not specifically about massive life gains. Its 1 life basically each time you trigger something and it does add up, but its not as over-the-top as you might think. Its surprisingly how well your opponents can gang up together and put you under 50 life when it literally means losing the game. As I said I was playing Felidar Sovereign in my Firesong and Sunspeaker deck, and every time my opponents manage to muster just enough damage to put me just under the amount. So in many ways these cards are actually more fun for opponents as it becomes a challenge for them to talk between them how they are going to achieve dealing you enough damage.
I won't specifically tell you to remove it however as it is a fun card for all, and you can recur it with Hall of Heliod's Generosity so you can just keep putting opponents to the test if they have removal for it. But don't expect many wins out of it, as I say your life total will be a huge factor to this actually succeeding.

Might as well cut Miren, the Moaning Well for Myriad Landscape. Now that you don't have cards like Cradle of Vitality, Light of Promise, Sunbond I'd say that you'd almost never spend the 4 mana on a target.

One last thing, just about actually playing the deck, make sure that when you distribute the +1/+1 counters that you specifically leave at least one token without counters so that you can target with Skullclamp to get the draw straight away.

Post by **pokken** » 3 years ago

A potential alternative to recursion is playing Rest in Peace. It's *stupidly powerful* in commander because everyone else wants to do recursion too.

Your gameplan is so high on synergy and Heliod is so easy to synergize with I'd just let people kill your stuff and focus on going tall on enough guys at a time to be a threat without overcommitting.

It's usually pretty easy with Heliod to just make something big, give it lifelink and start bashing away if you fear a sweeper. Pressure the person with the probable sweeper.

OCPunisher · Post by **OCPunisher** » 3 years ago

My two cents:

Crystalline Crawler seems kinda weak. Four mana for a card that might give you extra mana when you gettin life seems suspect.

Abzan Battle Priest has done some nice work for me, enough that other outlast creatures from Khans have gotten on the radar.

Wallycaine · Post by **Wallycaine** » 3 years ago

OCPunisher wrote: ↑
3 years ago
My two cents:

Crystalline Crawler seems kinda weak. Four mana for a card that might give you extra mana when you gettin life seems suspect.

Abzan Battle Priest has done some nice work for me, enough that other outlast creatures from Khans have gotten on the radar.

Alongside Battlepriest, Abzan Falconer seems like a great idea to turn all those giant creatures evasive. Ainok Bond-Kin is probably not good enough, and the rest are either not on color or don't give out abilities.

Ertai Planeswalker · Post by **Ertai Planeswalker** » 3 years ago

darrenhabib wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Ertai Planeswalker wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I feel i should have some more recursion in order to be able to really into it as a strategy but I do not know with what cards let alone what to cut. Not to be too greedy, but do you have any thoughts on that perhaps?
As I mentioned, you are not really setup majorly for a proactive plan with your recursion... ...One last thing, just about actually playing the deck, make sure that when you distribute the +1/+1 counters that you specifically leave at least one token without counters so that you can target with Skullclamp to get the draw straight away.

I did not mean recursion as an alternative / backup strategy but just as a way to get stuff back from the graveyard. Having said that:

pokken wrote: ↑
3 years ago
A potential alternative to recursion is playing Rest in Peace. It's *stupidly powerful* in commander because everyone else wants to do recursion too. Your gameplan is so high on synergy and Heliod is so easy to synergize with I'd just let people kill your stuff and focus on going tall on enough guys at a time to be a threat without overcommitting. It's usually pretty easy with Heliod to just make something big, give it lifelink and start bashing away if you fear a sweeper. Pressure the person with the probable sweeper.

I had not looked at it this way and this is also a way to go. By now, lifegain is a theme that goes so deep that no (lack of acces to a) single card will (dis)/enable the deck's gameplan. If so, trying to fit in that Samurai of the Pale Curtain that was mentioned earlier would also be a good option. I don't recur → No one recurs

OCPunisher · Post by **OCPunisher** » 3 years ago

Hey all,

Wanted to get some more discussion going on a couple of areas in this deck:
- Equipment: it was briefly mentioned above, but required a large budget, and then nothing became of it. I've been running a few lower-budget options in my own list: Mask of Memory is cheaper to cast and to equip than Sword of Fire and Ice, sees more cards when it triggers, and doesn't attract quite as much attention. Sword of the Animist has also done wonders for ramping when it survives. Finally, Skullclamp is an easy way to turn small creatures into extra cards, assuming they haven't all been pumped up by Heliod. Umezawa's Jitte was the next card on my list...has anyone tried it?
- Another card that is universally good, but also seems to check a lot of boxes that this deck wants is Ugin, the Ineffable. It's a bit expensive here, but it's still very flexible in a color that doesn't have a lot of versatility.
- Finally, a card that has been falling down my ranks and is on the verge of being cut from my list is Oketra's Monument. While it does provide extra bodies for Heliod to grow, it only reduces the cost of white creature spells, and most of those spells in this deck don't have any colorless cost to reduce.

AstralMTG · Post by **AstralMTG** » 3 years ago

OCPunisher wrote: ↑
3 years ago
Hey all,

Wanted to get some more discussion going on a couple of areas in this deck:
- Equipment: it was briefly mentioned above, but required a large budget, and then nothing became of it. I've been running a few lower-budget options in my own list: Mask of Memory is cheaper to cast and to equip than Sword of Fire and Ice, sees more cards when it triggers, and doesn't attract quite as much attention. Sword of the Animist has also done wonders for ramping when it survives. Finally, Skullclamp is an easy way to turn small creatures into extra cards, assuming they haven't all been pumped up by Heliod. Umezawa's Jitte was the next card on my list...has anyone tried it?
- Another card that is universally good, but also seems to check a lot of boxes that this deck wants is Ugin, the Ineffable. It's a bit expensive here, but it's still very flexible in a color that doesn't have a lot of versatility.
- Finally, a card that has been falling down my ranks and is on the verge of being cut from my list is Oketra's Monument. While it does provide extra bodies for Heliod to grow, it only reduces the cost of white creature spells, and most of those spells in this deck don't have any colorless cost to reduce.

I love equipment, but personally I don't love it so much for Heliod. I would be wary of running too many equipment as it isn't exactly what he wants to be doing as it takes away from the lifegain theme. However, if you can afford them, any sword of X and Y are obviously great. Especially Sword of Feast and Famine and Sword of Truth and Justice. Lower budget options such as you mentioned such as Mask of Memory and Sword of the Animist are fantastic equipment here. I would also suggest Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale and Shadowspear, the latter of which I will get to shortly. I am not too high on Skullclamp for Heliod. Don't get me wrong, it's one of the best equipments in Magic, but we don't have the best ways to abuse it. All of our one toughness creatures are too valuable to be sacrificing. My experience with Umezawa's Jitte is that it can be hit or miss. It can control the board like nobody's business, but can also do nothing if we aren't able to get enough combat triggers. I do like how we can turn extra charge counters into lifegain.

I only run two equipment: Sword of the Animist and Shadowspear. Sword of the Animist is amazing in just about any non-green aggro deck. I don't think I need to elaborate on it. I have Shadowspear in the deck for a couple reasons: 1) It gives me the option to make Heliod voltron by giving it lifelink and most importantly trample. 2) It grants me the ability to more easily dispose of hexproof and/or indestructible threats. When I have drawn it, it has been good. But, I would still define it as 'testing'. I have been considering testing Mask of Memory, but I haven't had problems with card advantage yet. The problem is my list is really tight and it's hard to make cuts.

I would not recommend Ugin, the Ineffable for this deck. We aren't running enough colourless cards to take advantage of his static ability (or at least in my deck anyways). Also, for how expensive his mana cost is and how planeswalkers are typically targeted, I would not want to run him here as we are unlikely to get enough value from him before someone manages to kill him. We have much better options for removal and card advantage.

I think Oketra's Monument is a fine budget or filler option. It's great with our soul sisters and can give a cost reduction. But, I agree with you that it it should be cut. I don't have your list as reference, but only half of the creatures in my list would benefit from the cost reduction. We also have much better ways of producing tokens to grow Heliod.

OCPunisher · Post by **OCPunisher** » 3 years ago

AstralMTG wrote: ↑
3 years ago
I love equipment, but personally I don't love it so much for Heliod. I would be wary of running too many equipment as it isn't exactly what he wants to be doing as it takes away from the lifegain theme. However, if you can afford them, any sword of X and Y are obviously great. Especially Sword of Feast and Famine and Sword of Truth and Justice. Lower budget options such as you mentioned such as Mask of Memory and Sword of the Animist are fantastic equipment here. I would also suggest Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale and Shadowspear, the latter of which I will get to shortly. I am not too high on Skullclamp for Heliod. Don't get me wrong, it's one of the best equipments in Magic, but we don't have the best ways to abuse it. All of our one toughness creatures are too valuable to be sacrificing. My experience with Umezawa's Jitte is that it can be hit or miss. It can control the board like nobody's business, but can also do nothing if we aren't able to get enough combat triggers. I do like how we can turn extra charge counters into lifegain.

I only run two equipment: Sword of the Animist and Shadowspear. Sword of the Animist is amazing in just about any non-green aggro deck. I don't think I need to elaborate on it. I have Shadowspear in the deck for a couple reasons: 1) It gives me the option to make Heliod voltron by giving it lifelink and most importantly trample. 2) It grants me the ability to more easily dispose of hexproof and/or indestructible threats. When I have drawn it, it has been good. But, I would still define it as 'testing'. I have been considering testing Mask of Memory, but I haven't had problems with card advantage yet. The problem is my list is really tight and it's hard to make cuts.

You make a great point about Skullclamp here. I threw it in because it says "draw 2" and white is historically starved for this type of effect, but in hindsight, it's probably not great here.

I hadn't considered Shadowspear mostly because white is already the best color for board wipes (hexproof) and exile effects (indestructible), but the trample AND lifelink is a pretty solid combination, and it has performed for me as well in other decks.

I'll have to keep an eye on Ugin, the Ineffable. There are a lot of other strong removal spells behind him (Act of Authority, Return to Dust, Angelic Ascension, etc) that don't have quite as wide of a range of targets as he does, nor do any of them make tokens that draw a card.

ChocoDude · Post by **ChocoDude** » 3 years ago

Hey all. I've been playing Heliod a little bit now and tried the Walking Ballista combo and decided like you all that it was too easy and frankly boring, so I followed a similar track to you all; a lifegain trigger shell. However, I've been a bit scattered on how I want to build said shell. Do I go the tokens route, reanimation/recursion, or staxy (like that?!!)? I decided mostly on a mini-stax idea. I'm still feeling scattered and was hoping you all could help me focus the deck more: https://archidekt.com/decks/508878#Heli ... _Stax-Life

I figure this is mostly a combat oriented deck, but I did add Aetherflux Reservoir and Angel of Destiny as wincon alternatives. In general, I'm trying to slow my opponents down, so I can get creatures through. As it stands now I really only have about five stax pieces, but they seem good without being too oppressive. I don't want to play a full stax build. That's just not me. Thoughts?

Also, I'm curious about a few cards I've seen in other Heliod decks. What do you think of the following?: Alms Collector, The Ozolith, Mikaeus, the Lunarch, Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Twinblade Paladin, Leonin Warleader, Felidar Retreat, Cathars' Crusade, True Conviction, and Emeria Shepherd. I know that's a lot to ask, but comments on any experiences with them are welcome.

Cheers!

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