Memnarch, Stealer of Games

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

@Wraith223 Ah, my friend. I'm sorry. I would say that the power of Islands pushes people away from your glory, but in the end this game is a social game. I'm sorry that you got ostracized for playing your deck the way it's meant to be played. It sucks when the people you play with treat your self-expression with negativity and derision. So, I think you have a few options.

Tone down your deck. This may suck, but if it helps your opponents and your playgroup treat you as a human being and Commander pilot instead of the Archenemy, it might help make the experience more enjoyable for everyone involved.

Not play with your playgroup. From the way they treated you, it may be better to remove yourself from the situation entirely to protect your emotional well-being. If you can find another playgroup that accepts your cEDH style of play that may be healthier for you in the long run.

Evaluate yourself and your strategy. Several lines in your rant talk about facing Carls (great reference btw) and potato-heads. Could it be that you're coming in to the playgroup with bias and/or pride that subconsciously instigates your playgroup? I respect you as a member of the Memnarch thread and I suggest that maybe some introspection could be in order to tweak your own expectations. Frustration comes from unmet expectations, so what expectations did you have with your playgroup?

Stay strong, my friend. MTG has been a stress outlet for many and I'm sorry to see your rant.

I'm still tweaking the OP list. I want to include more Stax options that synergize with the deck, so I'm testing out Vedalken Mastermind for Stasis loops. It also has some utility in bouncing frozen mana rocks, resetting Metamorph and PW's like Narset, Parter of Veils, and can save my cards from spot removal. I like its applications, but I'm not sure how it will actually play out since it does nothing by itself. I'll solidify the OP and tweak the Primer once I've settled on a list that works.

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Wraith223
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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

Self reflection...I am a tactician and find more players are getting mad at me because I say no to their shenanigans. This play group hates on anyone that's not a close friend or not just playing jank. I am not play first sliver food chain. It's not really cEDH. I did think about it all night. These guys just want to drink expensive beer And play their stuff without disruption or a challenge. Looking for a new play group. I like to challenged and throwing games just to make a cry baby happy is the current state of affairs.
Seriously!!!! Have you played against people who make game decisions based on what appears to be a monkey at dart board philosophy? It's horrifying and I discover later, that it's a cover for "I want my friend to win and not you". I just met that person and had no pre-conceived notions. My expectation of a game is competitive play but doesn't have to be competitive cards. I tame play all the time and bide my time, as that a serious strategy to win. I am just shocked that everyone forgets their are cards called removal that need to go in decks. These are grown men in their 30's plus and act like babies, don't adapt, and fail to comprehend the idea of no cards. They sure know how to run off people though.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Hey man, while I can sympathise with having a disconnect between how you and your group want to play the game, it's important to not belittle them over it. Commander's crazy success can be partially attributed to the fact there's no wrong way to play it, and the fact you enjoy it more competitive than them does not make you superior. Swapping groups without addressing the root cause means you're likely to snag again whenever something goes awry in the new setting.

As for the unreasonable focusing and stuff, it's a natural defence response to being subjected to powerful stuff like stax they don't enjoy. Yes, it will carry over across games, I've dealt with it for years and still tend to evaluate game states as a 3v1 due to it. Also note how your idea of a reined in deck is still Teeg, who's firmly in the disliked stax-adjacent hatebear territory.

Your group doesn't even sound that weak. While "a 7" is the least informative deck description ever, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and Zurgo Helmsmasher are pretty obnoxious commanders for casual. Something that works for me, and keeps my spikiness controlled within a more laid back group, is building crappy legends to the best of their ability. While the folks around me jam more loosely constructed Lord Windgrace, Marchesa, the Black Rose or whatever, I try to make do with Daxos the Returned or Eutropia the Twice-Favored. This works for me as I enjoy being original, but maybe it could work for you too? Find some jank, limit the control aspects, and see what you can pull off.
 
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Wraith223
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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

Let me clear the air...I was yelled at in public restaurant over entirely defensive plays. I was belittled without saying much as the place went silent listening to a bully yelling at me with 2 other followers getting mad at me for stopping them. I am not playing to be superior or trying to be super competitive. I am dealing with guys who just want to win without any resistance or forcing them to sleeve real removal. Yes, they are playing stax cards to and completely contradicting themselves yelling at me about 2 board wipes, one counter spell, and a back to basics.
Also, green/white is ver vulnerable to board wipes, this teeg as the commander is a serious consideration. It's not built around him. It's more of hexproof deck with both Oketras.
I was taught by of all people, a catholic priest who played Mtg (great guy and mentor, lord rest his soul), that turning creatures sideways to win is not the best strategy to win. I was hard core gruul in the beginning and realized quickly he was right. Diversification, back up plans, patients, and tool box thinking/plays win you more games. I was abused for having that line of thinking/play. I did not yell back as people record everything and I came to have fun, not fight.
So belittling my play group is the least of my concerns when they act like high school bullies. As players and supporters of Mtg, we need to call out cliques and bullies as it ruins the game for many and teaches new players the wrong mentality.

On a side note, memnarch performs psychological tests on players. It forces them think and I find that apparently certain individuals fail to adapt and overcome out of pure laziness and lack of effort to prepare. See it a lot in my college classes. Students are becoming lazier and less interested in thinking outside the box. Many Mtg players are following This trajectory towards instant win ideas or just huge creatures for cheap. I have seen players groan and protest mono blue decks when they are playing discard, colors that have lots of artifact hate, and combos I really can't stop anyway. I feel like Red Reddington from the blacklist many times when they act up before turn one. Read this in his voice, "so you are telling that before we even size each other up on crucial turn 3-4, you have no answers to my plans in a game of high interaction?" "Outstanding! Similarly, I recall this guy from Cuba that forgot...." Only true blacklist fans get this joke.

Wraith223
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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

Looks like I found a new play group. Awesome.

There a lot of token strategies being used lately or just tribal. Overburden is a wonderful control measure for that. Been seeing seriously greedy mana bases and over extending of the board. Board wipes, tough choices cards (overburden), and back to basics/LD are putting in work.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Congrats dude. I'm glad you're able to find a better playgroup to hang out with. Hopefully they'll adapt and improve as players with Memnarch in the mix now!

In other news, I'm trying to decide if Mycosynth Lattice is worth revisiting. The ability to create a one-sided lockout with Karn, the Great Creator, cut half of Memnarch's activated ability off, and create an overpowered Seedborn Muse effect with Unwinding Clock is decent, but is it good enough? It opens up a huge liability for mass artifact removal and Hellkite Tyrant is basically game over for me at any point when playing against my wife's Kaalia deck. Hurkyl's Recall also gets pretty cruel by being able to essentially take out a player.

I'm hoping to hear experiences and opinions on Lattice as a card!

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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

I stopped using lattice combo as Collector Oophe and stony silence is highly used these days. :unamused:

Also, dockside extortionist is a thing. :woozy:

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Good point about Dockside. That card is literally everywhere in any list that plays r.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Still evaluating where I want the decklist to go. I think there's some solid Stax pieces available in Blue that synergize with the deck but I fear that they could be dead pieces when drawn incorrectly.

My reasoning for the various Stax packages/pieces I've been pondering:
  • Mycosynth Lattice + Karn, the Great Creator - while this lock piece is fairly well-known and its power well demonstrated at this point, due to its brief run in Modern, I see some flaws with this package. First, we're not a creature heavy deck and can't reliably protect Karn to keep him alive and ensure that his Stax effect is reliable. Mana dorks and utility Commanders like Kess, Thrasios, Najeela, and Tymna make Planeswalkers a liability since there's so much chip damage that can come in from the table at any given point. So, I foresee that Karn might be able to animate an Artifact to protect him but at the potential cost of losing that mana rock. Or he could snipe an opponent's Crypt, Opal, or Mox to act as a pseudo removal piece. But that's a 4 effect that doesn't largely affect the table in a significant enough way. However, the Lattice enables the infinite mana loops to work without colored mana rocks, which comes up occasionally. The combo altogether costs 10 to operate but the Lattice is at least tutorable via the various tutor effects in Blue. I'm not convinced that this total CMC and opportunity cost is worth the deckspace since it doesn't necessarily propel me forward into the mid/late game so much as it aggravates the rest of the table and potentially draws their ire. Further, this decklist does NOT generate a Creature presence in any significant manner at all, so the protection of the Lock, should it be assembled, is STILL a risky venture since the Lock doesn't negatively affect the existing Creature presence from attacking into Karn. So, I'm scrapping this idea.
  • Winter Orb + Back to Basics + Static Orb- mana denial, especially at these low CMC costs, is very attractive because of how well it hinders my opponents in developing their respective Board states. B2B can particularly screw over any 3/4 color lists and can even occasionally screw 2 color lists that are nonbasic heavy. I've played with these cards and their play patterns are fairly clear and intuitive and the opportunity cost is low. I think that these cards are effective enough (particularly the Orbs) that I can tutor for them at any stage of the game and be pleased with their performance. I also like that the Orbs can be tutored easily in the list, so I think that these two cards are decent. The only problem I see becomes the question of why I'm running Memnarch when Urza would be MUCH better in the Command Zone. And I don't really have a solid answer to that question besides the fact that I like Memnarch for nostalgia and its late-game power in comparison to Urza.
  • Narset, Parter of Veils + Zur's Weirding - hand control is an interesting domain for this list to consider. The power of Weirding was made clear to me during a YouTube cEDH game where it completely warped the tempo of the game in favor of the caster. I see that there is a ton of potential for that kind of play pattern here as well, since you can cast a Draw 7 effect in conjunction with this to really minimize the power of Stack based combos since you can cherry pick their hand as they draw it. Narset is pretty well-demonstrated and is a known commodity in cEDH circles at this point, so I feel her inclusion is easy to justify particularly with this deck's penchant for creature minimization. I'm still undecided on the inclusion of Weirding, but the power is definitely present in my mind.
  • Mindlock Orb - I think that this is another VERY powerful effect for this deck to consider. By limiting my opponent's options to tutor out removal or combo pieces, it makes them reliant on their draws and their Commanders to power through a game where this card might be present. That being said, most cEDH Commanders are built with Card Advantage or Board development in mind, so casting this may make me a target for Combat damage and maximize the opportunity for my opponents to get ahead in Card Advantage relative to myself. BUT, Memnarch can completely flip this paradigm around if I can resolve him, protect him, and start activating his ability to start stealing out these Card Advantage and Board Development pieces. It would create a game state that is unique and maximizes Memnarch's chances to shine through as a Commander.
  • Silent Arbiter - the more I think about this card in the texture of cEDH games I've watched and played, the more I realize that Combat Damage is rising as a legitimate source of pressure and Card Advantage (Najeela and Tymna being the most obvious cases). Further, the Arbiter helps to make Planeswalkers a more reliable source of advantage for me and reduces the effectiveness of go-wide Board states. This deck DOES not win via Combat Damage, so this is NEVER a concern that I worry about until I've gained control of every permanent at the table, at which point the specific way I win is academic and largely irrelevant. This card is one that I think very highly of, is very tutorable, and has a soft enough impact on the Board to legitimately buy me time and minimize the Card Advantage my opponents can accrue relative to myself.
  • Stasis - the power of this card is undeniable. It halts any game in which it makes an appearance and, if I can break parity on it via Vedalken Mastermind or untapping effects a la Tezzeret the Seeker or Teferi, Temporal Archmage then I catapult myself ahead hugely. But, it's an enchantment, which is hard to tutor for in mono-Blue and I HAVE to have a way to break parity on it in hand or on-board before I play it. But it's a low CMC option and there are enough parity breakers in mono-Blue that I could legitimately build around this card. Additionally, the cards that I would play to break parity are decent cards by themselves and synergize with other cards in the deck to reset mana rocks, reset Card Advantage pieces. I'm strongly leaning towards building the list around this kind of synergy since the pieces by themselves are all decently powerful.
  • Dream Tides - I recently came across this card, and I have to say, I'm intrigued by it. Pretty much ALL mana dorks EVER are green, so this essentially becomes a Stasis for Mana Dork reliant decks. It also opens up new lines of play for my opponents because they'll have to decide to either untap creatures to accrue Card Advantage considering the prevalence of Tymna as a Commander. I'll have to ponder this one more deeply, but I like it from a cursory glance. The non-synergy of it not being an Artifact makes it harder to rely on since I can't tutor for it as effectively.
  • Lodestone Golem - this deck is pretty Artifact heavy, frankly, and this kind of Stax effect can be very easily manipulated or magnified with Clone effects. Phyrexian Metamorph, Sculpting Steel, and Copy Artifact are the easy ones to include that are also very powerful as is. This kind of card also allows me to buy the time I would need to leverage Memnarch's abilities more fully since the Golem slows down the rest of the table. I really like the idea of this card as well, and think that including more actual Tax effects could be a viable strategy for this deck to incorporate.
I'd love to hear suggestions from other people about Stax pieces/strategies they think could be effective relative to Memnarch as a Commander!

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

A tentative list I'll be testing with the inclusion of some new Stax packages is below:
Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:

I've decided to lean into the taxing strategy of spells, since I want the game to slow down more than anything else. I've upped my land count accordingly and tried to keep everything as low to the ground CMC-wise as possible.

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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

I tried stax and it doesn't work with memnarch at all. I need mana to defend myself with board wipes are tricks. I play against it a lot and Urza is the top dog in that battle. Overburden, invoke prejudice (not legal anymore, middle finger to wotc), and other effects are better in my experience for memnarch.

I sadly cut invoke prejudice as it's not pod legal at stores. It REALLY worked! So I am adding staff of domination or Scroll rack. Scroll rack so far has not been great in it. Staff of dom will be in the mail soon.
Overburden has been a blessing in disguise as it hozes Nath, the guilt leaf, animar, and cats/dogs. The Breya player did not not know what to do. XD

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Interesting that Overburden has been doing so well for you! I haven't had a chance to test out the Stax package, and it may totally be irrelevant, but I'm keen to try it out. With the way the cEDH meta has slowed down, there's actually a solid opportunity to deploy more Stax pieces over the course of a game and buy more time for this deck to execute on its core strategy.

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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

Urza works better with stacks cause you can use them to tap for mana with Urza. Memnarch needs 7 mana to work. Urza is colorless to activate. I am interested to see how those stax pieces work for you.

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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

Memnarch did great this weekend. Overburden plus shackles is hilariously good. In my area, red decks are everywhere. Lots of aggressive decks, thus your stax methodology for memnarch might not be to bad. Making them pay an extra 1 is enough to hose them. I noticed lots of decks have heavy reliance of green for mana. Thoughts on Acid Rain? I know it can be a dead card but it would make them scoop fast when it hurts.

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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

Sadly, invoke prejudice is no longer in my possession. I traded it for a Masterpiece Mana crypt!!!! Memnarch has bling now!!! I it's place, I replaced it with staff of dominance.
Also added new foil full art brainstorm, cyclonic rift, and academy ruins. They look amazing!
Added invocation counterspell as well. I never thought I could bling a deck...😎

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Congrats on the bling @Wraith223! I'm certainly feeling old school with my ancient looking Mana Crypt. Mark Tedin ftw! Lol.

Acid Rain is a card that I didn't know existed and looks delightfully spicy, depending on your meta. I like the idea of it a lot and would definitely be willing to give it a try.

My third child was born yesterday, so I haven't really been playing a ton of games recently. It's been gearing up for la baby and making sure our house is ready and clean for her arrival.

I personally really am excited for the idea of Tax effects and being able to copy them via Phyrexian Metamorph, Sculpting Steel, and Copy Artifact. I think that being able to have 2-3 copies of Lodestone Golem would also be pretty excellent at stopping my opponent's game play to a full halt, so I think the changes are decent. With the rise of Underworld Breach in a ton of cEDH decks, I think it's time to revist Pithing Needle and Grafdigger's Cage again as "Stax" pieces.

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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

Congratulations!!!!

Thorn of Amathist might be worth a try for stax.

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Post by jimmy_favona » 3 years ago

Thanks for your uploading and I like your decklists very much. It is enjoyable to read your articles and the analysis of each card. I am playing mtg for years and I can say that I was playing for win. I used to play lots of competitive games in Australia and won some prices as well. However, I moved to a small town 5 years ago and players here are quite causal, yes they have cEDH deck and they dont like to lose. Every deck I am playing has been called "genocide deck", well....fairly enough, because my Commanders are: Kozilek, butcher of truth, Kaalia of the vast, Memnarch, Urza Lord High Artificer and Brago Stax. When we had multi-players games, i was always the first target to be "killed", it doesn't matter how innocent I tried to pretend to be. The funny thing is I didn't get frustrated or angry about this, I really enjoy playing 1 vs 3 sometimes. I didn't use really rude card like destroying all lands or locking everyone to death. I encourage people to figure out a way to beat me down and always opened a back door for them(if they can find it). They always gained a sense of achievement after games. For edh games, I just want to play cool decks, I want to have a huge fun and others can have a little bit fun during the game. That is enough for me :) I hope players in my community can understand that I am not showing off that I have more expensive cards than them and I am not trying to gain the fun to humiliate other players. I smiled during the play and tried to persuade those 3 to drag down each other and shrugged my shoulders after losing the game. That is my philosophy of playing EDH here.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Wraith223 wrote:
3 years ago
Congratulations!!!!

Thorn of Amathist might be worth a try for stax.
Thank you. Thorn of Amethyst is another angle to consider for Taxing purposes and I'll see if I prefer it over Sphere of Resistance.
jimmy_favona wrote:
3 years ago
Thanks for your uploading and I like your decklists very much. It is enjoyable to read your articles and the analysis of each card. I am playing mtg for years and I can say that I was playing for win. I used to play lots of competitive games in Australia and won some prices as well. However, I moved to a small town 5 years ago and players here are quite causal, yes they have cEDH deck and they dont like to lose. Every deck I am playing has been called "genocide deck", well....fairly enough, because my Commanders are: Kozilek, butcher of truth, Kaalia of the vast, Memnarch, Urza Lord High Artificer and Brago Stax. When we had multi-players games, i was always the first target to be "killed", it doesn't matter how innocent I tried to pretend to be. The funny thing is I didn't get frustrated or angry about this, I really enjoy playing 1 vs 3 sometimes. I didn't use really rude card like destroying all lands or locking everyone to death. I encourage people to figure out a way to beat me down and always opened a back door for them(if they can find it). They always gained a sense of achievement after games. For edh games, I just want to play cool decks, I want to have a huge fun and others can have a little bit fun during the game. That is enough for me :) I hope players in my community can understand that I am not showing off that I have more expensive cards than them and I am not trying to gain the fun to humiliate other players. I smiled during the play and tried to persuade those 3 to drag down each other and shrugged my shoulders after losing the game. That is my philosophy of playing EDH here.
A warm welcome to MTGNexus @jimmy_favona! I appreciate your compliment. There's certainly a prestige in being THE player to take down and managing super tough game-states. And I think you definitely have the right mindset in being the archenemy,. And I think your mentorship is also super appreciated as well and will help diffuse the tension as your playgroup matures and gains in skill level.

Are there specific cards or play sequences that you find yourself utilizing the most?

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Post by jimmy_favona » 3 years ago

Thanks for your reply and I really appreciate it :) I love unwinding clock. When there were grim monolith, basalt monolith, mana vault or Seat of the Synod on the battlefield, I would use tezzeret or Transmute artifact to tutor it out. Then on each single player's turn I can steal at least one artifact from them :) I normally started it from Sol Ring.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

I think that I should reconsider Unwinding Clock again with the updated count in Artifact clones in the deck. Being able to float lots of artifact mana to dump into Memnarch's ability during the untap step looks like a ton of fun... for me.

I also LOVE the new Confounding Conundrum. That card is fantastic for cEDH because fetch-lands are so prevalent. It cantrips and usually create a tempo loss because the opponent can't crack the fetch the turn they play it. While that may not matter too much in terms of actual game play, it does create complications to what would otherwise be a normal play sequence and create some good benefit for this deck.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Welp, with Lithoform Engine being spoiled, I figure it's time to tweak the list yet again because of the Engine's power.

It's not the flashiest of spells, and it's certainly no Paradox Engine (oh, how I miss that card), it has enough utility to really make it worthwhile. It obviously goes infinite with Dramatic Reversal and enough mana rocks, so it acts as another layer of redundancy to Isochron Scepter. It can make copies of mana rocks in the late game so that Memnarch's power is magnified. It also helps to double up on Memnarch's abilities so that you can steal more things faster. It synergizes quite well with Unwinding Clock (no, it doesn't go infinite sadly) in ensuring that you can keep control over the table. So, it's not the flashiest card but I think it has enough utility to truly earn a slot in the deck. I think there's more utility to the card than what I've outlined here, so I'll be very interested to see other's experiences with the card and determine if it's really as strong as I think it is.

Confounding Conundrum is definitely earning a slot in the list because it's easy to include and the effect is worthwhile enough in slowing down opponents.

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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

With all the land fall, what is everyone saying thoughts on Acid Rain ?

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

For me, Forests aren't the predominant land type. I think Acid Rain is a meta dependent card. But its power in the right game would be amazing. Nothing better then a one sided land wipe.

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Post by Wraith223 » 3 years ago

Ben...how is the deck working with new stax pieces, lithoform engine, and other new stuff?

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