Nin: Torturing a Pun-ishment

User avatar
Crazy Monkey
Arcane Themes
Posts: 571
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: New Mexico, US

Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

I've had this Nin, the Pain Artist deck since it split off from my Riku of Two Reflections deck about a year after I got the precon. It's main strategy has almost always been to, as one would expect: draw too many cards. I typically do this with */* creatures whose toughness is based on my hand size, making them ideal targets for Nin, because the toughness is updated before the state-based check for lethal damage. This is because state-based checks are not performed during the resolution of a spell.
This means that activating Nin at X=9 on a Psychosis Crawler will never be lethal damage, as the toughness has also increased by 9 from the cards drawn. Similarly, Empyrial Plate provides the same protection if Nin chooses to torture herself.
Nin, Artistically Stabbing You

Commander

Creatures - The Victims

Enchantments - Draw support

Enchantments - Ramp

NonPermanents - Draw

NonPermanents - interaction

Approximate Total Cost:

The deck's rather straightforward and greedy. I play it exactly as greedily as the list implies and sometimes have to deck everyone, including myself If I run out of effects that trigger on drawing cards. I know that Nin can be fairly competitive commander, but that is not this deck.

Other than the timing of state-based checks for lethal damage, to most often overlooked combination is Nin, the Pain Artist with Willbreaker. Willbreaker triggers when targets are declared, which means that if it resolves, you control the creature while it is damaged, so you draw the cards instead of it's former controller.

I'm looking forward to Brash Taunter and Teferi's Ageless Insight from M21.
Last edited by Crazy Monkey 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



Tags:

User avatar
RowanKeltizar
Firemind
Posts: 531
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

Nice to see a solid Nin deck such as this. I can tell this is pretty well oiled and has seen a lot of play time! I hope you don't mind that I link to it in my primer as I am trying to provide options to folks looking at different ways to build Izzet.

I know you mentioned that you don't want to be much more competitive. I am curious as to where you draw the line here as I find people's take on what is competitive and what is casual to be extremely subjective and relative to their playgroup and their own builds. Others just want to play certain pet cards or combos. That said, I do have a few thoughts. Take em or leave em.

at 3.49 your mana curve is a bit on the high side I would say for a non-green deck even with all the artifact ramp. In izzet, I really hate getting high cost cards in my opening hands as it seems to really bog down the deck and kill the fun factor. Without very many looting effects, I see this as being even more of issue for you. Getting that average cmc below 3.0 should make the deck run more smoothly. Just my 2 cents.

On this vein, both the Nivs kind of stick out to me as being inefficient for the effect. Your build strikes me as a deck that typically wants to turn creatures sideways to get damage through. Something like Chasm Skulker or The Locust God look to me as being great fits and worth the cost, while the Nivs seem out of place in an otherwise very focused deck.

I did want to discuss two main points with you about the deck:

1. Targets for Nin's ability. Without too much creature recursion in Izzet colors, you are looking at either pinging your own creatures with Nin that A. don't mind dying like Solemn Simulacrum B. Indestructible or immune creatures like Darksteel Myr or Stuffy Doll. or C. Stealing your opponent's creatures and killing them.

Is there a reason you aren't leaning more into the creature theft route?

2. Mana issues in activating Nin She strikes me as being a very mana intensive commander in a color combo that can struggle with generating mana resources. I generally view Nin's ability as being akin to a draw X spell. IMO in these colors we just don't have access to the kind of mana it takes for these spells to be very worthwhile or efficient in terms of actually drawing cards. There are simply more efficient options. Adding green or even black would allow us to make better use of that X cost. Purely Izzet needs to be able to copy this ability to make the most use out of it or double the draw with a draw multiplier Teferi's Ageless Insight. In the case of Nin you can also double the damage that the ability does by using something like Furnace of Rath.

Training Grounds for Nin seems pretty solid especially if you have a way to untap her.

Rings of Brighthearth serves a similar function to illusionist's bracers


Some specific cards to consider:

Dockside Extortionist seems like auto-include. I know it's pricey but you have the ability to copy it.

Dramatic Reversal, Turnabout - untapping your resources seems like a pretty solid strategy with Nin

Vedalken Shackles - repeatable theft seems good

Darksteel Plate - makes any creature into a Darksteel Myr inlcuding Nin herself.

Battle Hymn - could be a really solid way to get some explosive mana.

Burnished Hart, Dreamscape Artist, Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Treasonous Ogre - creatures that generate mana are probably going to be ideal for a deck like this I would think.

Clever Impersonator - looks like one of the more solid and efficient copy spells.

Coastal Piracy, Reconnaissance Mission, Keep Watch, Distant Melody and Bident of Thassa all seem like solid considerations for creature based card draw.

Nezahal, Primal Tide seems like a fun card even though it costs 7! He (she?) is an investment that can protect itself and draw a ton of cards in a multiplayer setting.

Ominous Seas might be pretty fun and an efficient way to gain a scary board position.

Basilisk Collar - in a more creature heavy deck as this, I could see you getting some use out of it. Lifegain in Izzet colors can be a welcome thing. With Nin, all your pings are now lethal.



After all this, I am realizing maybe I want to build this deck too, lol! Fun stuff!!
WRBKaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
WBElenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
BRGSoul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
Budget Starter Decks
UBSygg, River Cutthroat
WU Shorikai, Genesis Engine
Image

User avatar
Crazy Monkey
Arcane Themes
Posts: 571
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: New Mexico, US

Post by Crazy Monkey » 3 years ago

First, thank you for the feedback.
RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
Nice to see a solid Nin deck such as this. I can tell this is pretty well oiled and has seen a lot of play time! I hope you don't mind that I link to it in my primer as I am trying to provide options to folks looking at different ways to build Izzet.

I know you mentioned that you don't want to be much more competitive. I am curious as to where you draw the line here as I find people's take on what is competitive and what is casual to be extremely subjective and relative to their playgroup and their own builds. Others just want to play certain pet cards or combos. That said, I do have a few thoughts. Take em or leave em.

at 3.49 your mana curve is a bit on the high side I would say for a non-green deck even with all the artifact ramp. In izzet, I really hate getting high cost cards in my opening hands as it seems to really bog down the deck and kill the fun factor. Without very many looting effects, I see this as being even more of issue for you. Getting that average cmc below 3.0 should make the deck run more smoothly. Just my 2 cents.

On this vein, both the Nivs kind of stick out to me as being inefficient for the effect. Your build strikes me as a deck that typically wants to turn creatures sideways to get damage through. Something like Chasm Skulker or The Locust God look to me as being great fits and worth the cost, while the Nivs seem out of place in an otherwise very focused deck.
I'd be perfectly fine with you linking this as an alternate build. RE: mentioning competitive builds, I remember Nin being a fairly competitive deck in 1v1 "French" EDH. I mostly wanted to convey that this is definitely not that deck.

The mana curve is high, and you've correctly noted that there are a lot of more pet cards than perhaps strictly needed. I've hand-waved that with the amount of ramp I have, (which is not entirely correct in deckbuilding). I should consider dropping the curve. I've been considering swaps like Teferi's Ageless Insight for Thought Reflection, even though I really want both.

The Niv-mizzets are mostly there so that I have a large number of damage/lifeloss output from drawing cards. I rarely use Nin as removal, so Niv lets me draw cards while still damaging opponents or creatures. the majority of my wins come from having a massive pile of cards more often than combat (Psychosis Crawler / Mind Over Matter enabled decking of self or others). Combat is usually a more secondary route, but is viable. I'd actually be more likely to drop something like Mindmoil over a Niv-mizzet.
RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
I did want to discuss two main points with you about the deck:

1. Targets for Nin's ability. Without too much creature recursion in Izzet colors, you are looking at either pinging your own creatures with Nin that A. don't mind dying like Solemn Simulacrum B. Indestructible or immune creatures like Darksteel Myr or Stuffy Doll. or C. Stealing your opponent's creatures and killing them.

Is there a reason you aren't leaning more into the creature theft route?

2. Mana issues in activating Nin She strikes me as being a very mana intensive commander in a color combo that can struggle with generating mana resources. I generally view Nin's ability as being akin to a draw X spell. IMO in these colors we just don't have access to the kind of mana it takes for these spells to be very worthwhile or efficient in terms of actually drawing cards. There are simply more efficient options. Adding green or even black would allow us to make better use of that X cost. Purely Izzet needs to be able to copy this ability to make the most use out of it or double the draw with a draw multiplier Teferi's Ageless Insight. In the case of Nin you can also double the damage that the ability does by using something like Furnace of Rath.

Training Grounds for Nin seems pretty solid especially if you have a way to untap her.

Rings of Brighthearth serves a similar function to illusionist's bracers
I do include creatures with higher toughness for a given effect/CMC for use with Nin. A good example of that is Spellskite because it offers protection, and survives for repeatable draw 3. This is also why I have both 2 mana myr and Solemn Simulacrum in my ramp.

The exclusion of theft is mostly just a question on the number of repeatable theft options. More and better options have been printed since I cut Charisma and Roil Elemental years ago. I should reconsider it at least.

The inefficiency is mitigated somewhat with the instant speed nature of the ability, letting my threaten Nin as removal or other interaction. Honestly, it's the draw or ability doubling that kicks the deck into high gear. Most of the early/mid game is holding up mana then drawing 3-6 cards and playing out more ramp on my own turn.
RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
Some specific cards to consider:

Dockside Extortionist seems like auto-include. I know it's pricey but you have the ability to copy it.
Dramatic Reversal, Turnabout - untapping your resources seems like a pretty solid strategy with Nin
Vedalken Shackles - repeatable theft seems good
Darksteel Plate - makes any creature into a Darksteel Myr inlcuding Nin herself.
Battle Hymn - could be a really solid way to get some explosive mana.
Burnished Hart, Dreamscape Artist, Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Treasonous Ogre - creatures that generate mana are probably going to be ideal for a deck like this I would think.
Clever Impersonator - looks like one of the more solid and efficient copy spells.
Coastal Piracy, Reconnaissance Mission, Keep Watch, Distant Melody and Bident of Thassa all seem like solid considerations for creature based card draw.
Nezahal, Primal Tide seems like a fun card even though it costs 7! He (she?) is an investment that can protect itself and draw a ton of cards in a multiplayer setting.
Ominous Seas might be pretty fun and an efficient way to gain a scary board position.
Basilisk Collar - in a more creature heavy deck as this, I could see you getting some use out of it. Lifegain in Izzet colors can be a welcome thing. With Nin, all your pings are now lethal.

After all this, I am realizing maybe I want to build this deck too, lol! Fun stuff!!
For the individual cards:
  • Training Grounds - That's an interesting inclusion that I had not considered. I have creatures in addition to Nin that could capitalize on it. If I add more ramp, this would be more likely to make the cut than something Hedron Archive.
  • Rings of Brighthearth - I'm less likely to include this than Teferi's Ageless Insight or another draw-doubler, but this is some redundancy with Illusionist's Bracers. I already run it in around 8 decks, so I'm not sure if it makes it, but this is a good reminder.
  • Dockside Extortionist - Can be an explosive ritual, but it's not really what I want to be copying (Stormtide Leviathan / Psychosis Crawler ). It would probably be better than adding Mind Stone, but less likely to be added than Training Grounds, at least for me.
  • Dramatic Reversal, Turnabout - These are some big rituals, but I feel like they would be near timing to something like Mind Over Matter, which can be much more explosive. I'm not sure how I feel about them here.
  • Vedalken Shackles - This should probably get added. There will almost always be targets and the mana cost is rather low.
  • Darksteel Plate - It's somewhat uncommon for there not to be a target for Nin, but this does offer some extra protection. I think that Brash Taunter is more likely to get added, but this is a good option.
  • Battle Hymn - a large payoff if I have The Locust God or after Chasm Skulker dies, but less effective if I didn't have those. I think it's too situational for me here.
  • Burnished Hart, Dreamscape Artist, Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Treasonous Ogre - All of these are reasonable ramp, but I think that I'm more likely to try adding in more manarocks, or the ramp options you mentioned above first.
  • Clever Impersonator - this is a good clone. My three clones are for flexibility (metamorph), retaining an effect through removal (Stunt Double), or getting it back (Body Double). Impersonator has more targets, but costs more mana than the metamorph. I'm not sure if I would make that swap.
  • Coastal Piracy, Reconnaissance Mission, Keep Watch, Distant Melody and Bident of Thassa - I have this playstyle in my Talrand, Sky Summoner deck, but without The Locust God I don't make a huge amount of tokens. I'm not sure they fit with Nin.
  • Nezahal, Primal Tide - A reasonable draw engine with high toughness and some built in protection. The CMC is a bit high though, especially as I consider lowering costs.
  • Ominous Seas - I like this, and had overlooked it for this deck. This should probably make it in. 8/8 tokens can take a lot of punishment, and if it can't then it makes a new one. Also, you know, 8/8 tokens.
  • Basilisk Collar - I usually hold Nin up as a threat of removal, then draw cards if I didn't "need" to kill something. Realistically, I end up targeting my own creatures around 75% of the time. I think this would be more likely to backfire for this reason. Now, if there was a card like Drunau Corpse Trawler that I could use as an ability to give deathtouch, then I would be more likely to run that. I actually target my own creatures often enough that Bubble Matrix has stayed in the deck for years, despite shutting off my ability to use Nin as removal.
I'm glad you enjoyed the list and thank you for the suggestions. I'll be looking to pick up several of them for testing.
Commander Decks


Kemba | Kytheon | Talrand | Unesh | Teferi | Geth | primer Zada | Krenko | Torbran | Patron Orochi | Ghalta | Gargos | Medomai | The Count | Xenagos | Nikya | Jaheira, Artisan | Trostani | Athreos | Jarad | Ivy | Nin | Krark & Sakashima | Feather | Osgir | Gisela | Roon | Chulane | Sydri | Ertai | Mairsil | Vial & Malcolm | Prossh | Marath | Marisi | Syr Gwyn | Riku | Riku | Animar | Ghave | Tasigur | Muldrotha | Rayami | Zedruu | Yidris | Kynaios & Tiro | Saskia | Tymna & Kydele | Atraxa | Akiri & Silas | Sisay | Ur Dragon | Bridge | Horde | Najeela | Genju | Traxos



Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”