5C Cycling

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

I actually did a five color cycling deck about a year ago. One of the biggest issues I had at that time was that I couldn't really settle on a commander that really seemed to help it. Since then, Kenrith, the Returned King and Golos, Tireless Pilgrim were both created. I think that both of these commanders are viable for cycling. Golos seems to take more of an Astral Slide approach where as Kenrith gives a mana dump / sticky threats approach. In the end, I felt like it was harder for me to run the cool utility lands and the cycling lands together for Golos. Golos' activated ability also doesn't seem very good with cycling. On the other hand keeping mana up with Kenrith in play seems fairly reasonable and even pushes me to maybe give more priority to untappers.

They also came out with Gavi, Nest Warden. In the past I felt like some of my biggest payoff for doing cycling ended up being a lot of the green effects to put lands from my graveyard back into play. With running less colors you also eliminate a LOT of potential cycling lands from the deck. I felt like it lost too much of what I enjoyed about the 5c cycling deck with limiting the colors and not running green.

Shifting to Kenrith I also eliminated a lot of mana dump creatures. I had previously used some things like Zacama, Primal Calamity and The Scarab God which I felt less necessary to run with Kenrith.

Decklist

COMMANDER (1)

ARTIFACT (2)

LAND (45)

FETCHABLE DUALS

COLORLESS CYCLERS

OTHER LANDS

Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by ISBPathfinder 3 years ago, edited 22 times in total.
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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

What do you think of that new ultimatum? Eerie Ultimatum - feels really good and a major upgrade over splendid rec even if you hit 3 untapped lands it pays for itself. To be fair your hit count on non-spells is pretty low, but you could potentially sling a few more permanent cycling cards.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 3 years ago

psychosis crawler?

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Post by Outcryqq » 3 years ago

I think you could really use another board wipe, my cycling deck is slow to get moving and in the mid game I'm often playing from behind. You might want Akroma's Vengeance.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
What do you think of that new ultimatum? Eerie Ultimatum - feels really good and a major upgrade over splendid rec even if you hit 3 untapped lands it pays for itself. To be fair your hit count on non-spells is pretty low, but you could potentially sling a few more permanent cycling cards.
Its a tough call. I also considered Herald of the Forgotten which I think does very similar things for similar mana. The spell is probably a little better in that I do run things that don't cycle that are important but the colored mana intensity of that spell also makes me think that its not that unlikely that it might give me some issues casting it. I put a lot of priority in getting value out of my landbase in that they can cycle and then be rezed as ramp rather than having all the right colors on curve.

I will keep an eye out though. It was something that wasn't on my radar before now but I think it could be a strong play. I haven't played a cycling deck in a while though and it looks different enough from when I last played it that I am hesitant to just throw in some more seven mana drops especially given the color intensity of it.
BeneTleilax wrote:
3 years ago
psychosis crawler?
Psychosis Crawler - It tends to be something I avoid from the standpoint that it doesn't affect the board much. It can do a lot of damage if left alone but my issue is how long it needs to hang out to do that. If a wrath or spot removal comes for it, it doesn't really leave much accomplished for the mana and card you spent on it. I guess, if you ask me it either goes the distance, or is a disappointment. I am not really much of an aggro deck so a little bit of life loss on my opponents probably isn't going to add up to much for me with this deck.
Outcryqq wrote:
3 years ago
I think you could really use another board wipe, my cycling deck is slow to get moving and in the mid game I'm often playing from behind. You might want Akroma's Vengeance.
My issue with Akroma's Vengeance is that it isn't really fantastic when cast or cycled. I tend to want cards that situationally can be very strong that can be cycled or that want to be cycled. Like fogs for example. Its an effect that is very narrow in when you want that card so I might cycle them early on but later in the game they tend to be kind of nice as an option. My favorite cards are ones that I always want to cycle but an overcosted answer that I kind of don't want to cycle brings me to the question of if I shouldn't just have a more efficient alternative instead.

I am not against more wraths, I just don't think that Akroma's is that efficient in comparison to today's wraths. The fact that it could be cycled seems only relevant if I am winning or have a ton of wraths in hand. I think I would prefer a different wrath instead.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Ok, I did some tinkering with this list and I realized that some of my previous experience with O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami. Previously I had put a lot more emphasis into everything either wanting to be cast or cycled. I had the lands reanimation stuff too but when it came to like, nonlands it tended to be cast value or cycle value. Now with Kenrith though there is value in cycling beefy creatures or creatures worth reanimating. I sort of slightly realized this last second as I was posting this which is why I ended up pushing Titanoth Rex into the list because really I don't actually care about giving trample since Kenrith can do that anyways but instant speed rezing an 11/11 trampler could be huge. With this I added a few more high mana creatures that rezing might be useful that cycle.

I also realized that I really REALLY needed to do an overhaul to my lands. I realized that the tri cycle lands changed up a lot for my list and I added like, half of the fetchlands previously. Wellllll I went a lot deeper into my landbase and I decided to add more fetchlands and refine my fetchable non cycling lands a little as well. Its important to have a few fetchable duals that will enter untapped early on given how many fetches I am up to now.

So lets take a look at the changes starting with lands:

DECK CHANGES:
New landbase as follows:
So, I did a ground up land rebuild as I felt that the lands had changed too much since we got access to the fetchable tri cycling lands. This is still kind of me being hypothetical with this as I sadly haven't been able to do much playtesting given Covid. With the tri lands being added I felt like the reasons to push fetchlands went up as well. I used to have more basics in the list but in the rest of the changes I also cut a bunch of the basic support effects in the list leaving me where I am right now with I think just Ash Barrens and fetching into basics as the remaining options left. I went down to four basics given this cutting the mountain feeling like it was the least relevant of them. When it came to the ABU Duals that I included, I wanted to hold back on going crazy given how much space all of the cycling lands eats up in the list so I decided in the end to go with two of them primarily there as fetch targets early on so I don't lose some turns as an option to being one short on mana. I decided that I should probably cover the four colors I primarily use with this deck over those two lands and given that GB were the highest mana symbols I went with Bayou and Tundra. I could see reason to do things a few different ways but it seemed to make sense to me. I could easily go with shocklands here but I own the ABU duels and I am only putting two in so it seemed ok. This landbase is so demanding that I have ZERO utility lands in this so far. I probably should try to get Strip Mine in here but I really have been trying to hold off on expanding my land count further and cutting things has been hard so I figured I would just wait for testing to really delve into that.
  • Curator of MysteriesBone Miser - I gave it a bit more thought and the actual value in Curator isn't really amazing. Thinking a bit more on Bone Miser it seemed like it could be really cool. That BB on cycling a land covers the cost of a lot of land cyclers and drawing an extra card on noncreature also seems quite strong.
  • Shefet MonitorScion of Darkness - Its a little bit of a question of the value in cycling vs the value in the creature portion. I don't really intend to cast Scion but as a rez target for Kenrith it looks a lot more appealing. I would actually care to rez and put counters on Scion where as with Shefet Monitor, I just don't really see much value in a medium sized body with no evasion / value to it.
  • Krosan TuskerWayward Swordtooth - I have been seeing more reason to push for more landdrops per turn which work well with things like Crucible of Worlds. Krosan Tusker kind of sucks as a reanimation target and while the cycling effect is ok, I have been pushing away from basic support and I think Swordtooth fits what I want to do a bit more.
  • Stinging ShotJungle Weaver - Stinging Shot is hard to abuse and if the flyer is big then its kind of awkward. The weaver has synergy with Kenrith being a rez target with reach.
  • Sweltering SunsToxic Deluge - Sweltering has been too hard to cast. RR to cast and no cycle value hasn't been great. I figured with the lifegain that Kenrith can give as well as the size buffing option of him that Toxic is versatile.
  • Sevinne's Reclamation → Another Land - I kept looking at my landbase and I was having trouble keeping the number down. It seemed like I just needed to have a little more space for my lands. Sevinne's is nice with fetches and cycling lands but I guess I will see if I can work it back in at some later time.
So, right now I think I need to find a way to get a Strip Mine in. I also think that Field of the Dead would make an amazing addition to the list. Getting a few more tutors to get Crucible of Worlds / Ramunap Excavator into play would be nice. As I was looking for cards to put this together I also took a look at Bolas's Citadel and was thinking of how cool that would be with cycling cards and a high land count with extra land drops.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Just been getting a few cards in for this deck and I wanted to tweak a few things. Hopefully I can play some digital games soon as I have been getting a little annoyed being cooped in with no magic lately.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Sun TitanField of the Dead I think Sun Titan is a bit too fair of ramp for me in this deck. While I have a few good targets for him, I only counted like 8 or so targets that were not lands that he could rez for this deck which seemed a little low. When it comes to rezing lands, he just felt too slow and fair for what I can ideally do with this deck.
  • Suffocating FumesShark Typhoon I do think I still have some weakness to tokens in this deck but some of my issue is that I don't think that Suffocating Fumes is very good against tokens or as a cycle card. Shark Typhoon is a card that gives me incentive to cycle it and that is kind of what I want more so. Its possible that I should just add something like Aetherspouts or something. For now I am just opting to take kind of what I think is probably a medium card and improving on it.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Ok, I played a few games online with some friends (who were admittedly both kind of playing aggro decks against me). It was enlightening to show though how painful the ETB tapped lands can be though. I need to put up more defense sooner though it appears so this is me making a few changes for that. I also noticed that I don't have much that actually draws me more cards in the deck so I should probably have more draw rather than just cycle into a new card effects.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Seedborn MuseFog Bank right now, my issues tend to be frontloaded. Seedborn is a after Kenrith sticks to the board sort of play for this deck and I am currently having issues getting to that part of the game. Assuming I can shore up my defenses I will probably try to bring seedborn back in but I think Awakening is going to be done for me.
  • Jungle WeaverStinkweed Imp I totally didn't think about Stinkweed Imp for some reason earlier. The dredge part of it is actually quite helpful for this deck and its a reusable rattlesnake. It seems really nice and I don't know why I didn't think about it before now but given my issues with aggro decks it seems like a great thing to add.
  • AwakeningSylvan Library Awakening is a post Kenrith thing and I have been having trouble getting that far. Sylvan comes in earlier and gives good card selection and it can turn into cheaper draw when paired with Kenrith's lifegain effect.
  • AngelsongEntomb I think with adding stinkweed imp the option of card advantage in Life from the Loam or defense in Stinkweed really gives me some reasonable options. I can also tutor a rez target for Kenrith so it seems like its versatile enough.
  • LullPainful Truths I think the fogs are still kind of cool but I needed a little more card draw that boosts the number of cards in my hand. I like the efficiency of Painful Truths and it isn't too color intensive.
These changes should lower my curve a little, give me defenses sooner, and provide a little more card draw / selection instead of trying to boost Kenrith (whom I have yet to really get to use). The few games I played put enough pressure on me that I generally would get killed by the time I had something like 7-8 mana. Its also possible that I might consider having more wraths or more active defenses in here depending on how testing continues.
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Post by Outcryqq » 3 years ago

Hate to say it, because I know you were moving away from it on purpose, but Astral Slide and Astral Drift could help you play defensive early, Merely adding one or both of those and a few creatures with strong ETB (Scrivener type dudes? Sun Titan?) would help you both defensively and offensively.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote:
3 years ago
Hate to say it, because I know you were moving away from it on purpose, but Astral Slide and Astral Drift could help you play defensive early, Merely adding one or both of those and a few creatures with strong ETB (Scrivener type dudes? Sun Titan?) would help you both defensively and offensively.
My experience with slide effects is that a VERY large portion of the value of them is based on flickering ETB creatures of your own. Sure, it has that functionality but I would say its a lot less powerful. I might be able to bring myself to bring Astral Drift in due to its cycling and ability on cycle but I think it might be tricky for me to really convince myself otherwise. I did when I was looking at the commander consider going with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim as the commander at which point I would have built slide as the plan but with Kenrith I just haven't seen the incentive to build into ETB tactics.

Random side note, I totally overlooked that Zirda, the Dawnwaker cost reduces cycling in many cases cutting the cost in half or more. I guess I need to figure out a way to get a copy in here. As cool as it would be to make it my companion........ I don't really see myself abiding by that companion requirement so I would just be looking at it in the 99. Plus with all those nerfs to the companion mechanic it just makes even less sense as a companion for commander these days.
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Post by TheMrBigShot96 » 3 years ago

Have you thought about amulet of vigor for the tapped lands? May need some adjusting for the list to help get it out quicker/ more consistent but it can really speed things up when you get it out and running.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

TheMrBigShot96 wrote:
3 years ago
Have you thought about amulet of vigor for the tapped lands? May need some adjusting for the list to help get it out quicker/ more consistent but it can really speed things up when you get it out and running.
I did give it some thought. Unlike the modern deck, my biggest issue I have is that in a lot of cases its only putting me one mana ahead in a turn. Where the modern deck really shines with it is utilizing the ravnica bounce lands with extra land drops per turn as well as Primeval Titan putting multiple of the lands into play. Beyond that, that modern deck can stack multiple of them in play which generates mana. In this deck I felt like in the more optimal cases where I find it early, its still mostly providing another one mana a turn. There are turns where you could use it with things like Splendid Reclamation or even just more land plays per turn to make decent use of it but in most cases my issue is that it takes up a card to tempo ramp me one mana a turn which has some level of fall off assuming I would draw it later in a lot of cases. If you compare the tempo mana gain to say an early game Explore or Exploration in a lot of cases I saw more value in the green effects instead of Amulet of Vigor.

I do think there are cases where Amulet of Vigor can shine. My issue is sort of that I see a lot of fall off of the card beyond the first few turns. You could possibly say the same thing about Exploration but I still see value in cycling lands with Crucible of Worlds effects later which leave me with presence in play even if it were to be blown out. Most cheap mana ramp can compare in early game mana advancement when not pairing it with additional land drops which, while I do run them I think I prefer a lot of other types of ramp instead.

You really need to be somewhat of consistently hitting two or more lands entering tapped in a turn before Amulet of Vigor starts to make more sense. In the modern deck they can also stack multiple copies of Ammulet which I can't really reliably do. I just felt like there was too much inconsistency to it for it to really make sense here.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Bone MiserZirda, the Dawnwaker I will be honest that I haven't yet seen Bone Miser in action but I think in a lot of cases the role of Zirda will be similar for less mana. I think the effect Zirda offers is actually probably superior as a cost reducer but the idea of drawing some cards off of Miser seemed interesting to me originally.
  • Dig Through TimeForbidden Alchemy Dig has more value behind it but I don't really want to delve through lands or creatures in this deck. I felt it was better to instead dig and fill up my graveyard a little. I considered Grisly Salvage for this spot but I figured that being less color intensive and digging anything was slightly more favorable.
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Post by TheMrBigShot96 » 3 years ago

Fair point with amulet. But you've got to keep bone miser in! I've been playtesting my own version of this kind of deck and cycling a land forn2 colorless with bone miser out feels great. You get two black mana off of it and can keep the cycle going.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 3 years ago

TheMrBigShot96 wrote:
3 years ago
Fair point with amulet. But you've got to keep bone miser in! I've been playtesting my own version of this kind of deck and cycling a land forn2 colorless with bone miser out feels great. You get two black mana off of it and can keep the cycle going.
I do want to see if I can get him in for some testing but some of my concerns is that he is sort of like a 7 mana play in that he doesn't help cycle that first thing and even then he primarily helps on chain cycling especially towards the end of cycling lands repeatedly. I like the fox given the lower mana cost and lowering cycling as a whole. I think its a lot more flexible even if the ceiling isn't as high on the card the floor is also a lot easier to achieve.

I think Bone Miser might actually be worse than Seedborn Muse personally after giving it a bit more thought. They cost the same but Seedborn will have mana up to cycle far before Miser will and its unlikely that the amount of mana I could generate with seedborn won't be more than what I would get with the Miser. Miser has this ideal situation kind of a thought process where its like, what if I chain into 10 cycle lands off of the top of my deck while also having something that cares about me cycling, discarding, or drawing in play.

I included Bone Miser as a way to generate extra mana and maybe draw a few cards. I guess my concern is that it seems like it is a bit too dependent on having a lot of cards in hand already or chain drawing into cycling cards. Its true that the mana it produces could always be used by Kenrith but I also think that getting Bone Miser started is a lot of mana investment to spin it up for a deck that has most of its lands come in tapped.

I also come at this from the standpoint that the last few games of testing I had I played against small pods of red aggro decks that burned me out. I need to be a little less greedy right now and work on the basics a bit. Making sure not to run out of land drops, keep drawing cards, and surviving are where I am at right now. I need to get more testing in for sure but hopefully the addition of the few blockers and reducing my curve a bit should ideally help. I had too many big mana payoffs that relied on my opponents being greedy and slow which is tricky when also running a bunch of ETB tapped lands.
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