Sushi-Go: Gyruda Combo...In Commander?

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Hawk
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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

For those that haven't seen it, there has emerged in Standard and Pioneer a spicy deck comboing off with Gyruda, Doom of Depths in the companion slot. The "Combo" is to cast Gyruda and pray you hit a clone effect or flicker effect in your top four. Doing so allows you to clone or flicker Gyruda, milling more, and hitting more...the end result is either a massive boardstate (that then kills with End-Raze Forerunners or Craterhoof Behemoth ) or a deckless opponent who loses on their next draw step. Winning immediately with Thassa's Oracle is also on the table.

Making this work in Commander is hard, because libraries are large, variance is high, and we only have one Spark Double (The key card in Standard and Pioneer as it lets you keep spare Gyrudas around, for that Plan A of swinging in for lethal). Because it is hard, naturally, I really wanted to do it! For commander I settled on Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - I think it's definitely justifiable to do a version of this deck with Muldrotha, the Gravetide but I felt I lost out on too many "free rolls". It's also legit to do this with Gyruda in the command slot instead of the companion - but again, you lose a lot of "hits" in exchange for the ability to more consistently chain Gyruda into Gyruda over a longer, grindier game.

Below, in my initial draft, I delineate between a "free" roll and a "combo" roll. To explain...

- A free roll is a clone effect or immediate flicker effect like Restoration Angel. These allow us to immediately gain another trigger of Gyruda to roll again. We are running every single free roll available to us. Key among them is Panharmonicon, which makes us literally twice as likely to "go off" and infinite if we can stick it before slamming Gyruda.

- Combo rolls are, tautologically, not free. It's a mixed bag here. We have some pieces that require a mana investment which means waiting until much later to pull the Gyruda-trigger, like Deadeye Navigator or Mistmeadow Witch. Some only trigger on endstep, so you can't "immediately" continue, like Thassa, Deep-Dwelling or Glimmerpoint Stag. Some are "o-ring" style effects and will require a sacrifice outlet to keep the engine running smoothly, like Faceless Butcher and Hostage Taker. Some effects here bounce, which means they don't immediately continue the chain but do allow us to keep chaining in the following turn without fear of removals, like Cavern Harpy. We also have Luminous Broodmoth and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed who do nothing by themselves but are VERY GOOD with the clones; we sacrifice most clones to the Legend rule, but these two bring them back - effectively, these guys are like extra panharmonicons that don't work on the first casting.

The key thing is that we're only running stuff that Gyruda actually hits - we are eschewing stuff like Rite of Replication that only works when hardcast. I managed to find 35 total "rolls", to preserve the structure of the STandard/Pioneer decks that are running about 33% of their deck as hits. The rest of the deck is mostly support in the form of ramp, draw, and interaction, with a few additional combo pieces for good measure. As a weird rules quick, Gyruda brings back a card even if they were exiled - Demon Kraken don't care where the cards went. This means we can, and are, running stuff like Leyline of the Void to prevent opponents from surviving our infinite mill combo.


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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Ha ha, I was just watching a Legacy video with the idea, and thought I'd start theory-crafting, but looks like you beat me to the punch.
I'd also seen an LSV playing a Standard version.

I'm keen to see if we can get a really tuned list.

Mortuary is an infinite combo with a sacrifice outlet, as you can just keep putting Gyruda on top.

The thing is currently you are going to whiff eventually. I play a Winota, Joiner of Forces that looks at 5 cards, and I have 28 Humans in the deck, and you do whiff. Just math.
Currently its around 56% chance of hitting a "free roll" with your configuration.
On top of that you have your delayed at end of turn, with Charming Prince, Thassa, Deep-Dwelling, Glimmerpoint Stag.
So that kind of makes it 62%.
And then you have all the much slower cards.

Its all about hitting your clones, so Mana Severance pre Gyruda is going to really enhance the odds.

Trench Gorger is another card that you could hit, and would set you up nicely.

Nightmare Shepherd acts like another Panharmonicon for your clones, as when they'll die, you can make a copy of Gyruda again.

I'm not a fan of the return to hand cards, Cavern Harpy, Jeskai Barricade, Kor Skyfisher, Sawtooth Loon.

With a sacrifice outlet in mind, there are some more inventive ways to get the ball rolling. But keep in mind that Red is going to be a factor in a lot of the cards I'm going to suggest, and so Ramos, Dragon Engine is going to need to be the commander.

This also allows you to play Dack's Duplicate.

Gamekeeper
Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero can bring back all the clones that you might have used, and plus you can just sacrifice other blink enablers, so if you can imagine getting tons of triggers if you are deep into the attempts.
If you've already cast Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero pre casting Gyruda then you can clone him with one of your clone cards eventually to get those triggers, bringing back all the clones you've used already used.
So from there on out you in fact clone Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero each time rather than Gyruda. A clone will get exiled each time, but you will still end up with waaaay more triggers.

Athreos, Shroud-Veiled with a sacrifice outlet can do it.

With sacrificing in mind and its potential importance; Greater Gargadon, Claws of Gix, Phyrexian Tower, High Market.

With haste you can get more angles as well. Now the big one in mind for this is Anger. You are hoping to mill Anger at some stage.
Apprentice Necromancer, Whisper, Blood Liturgist, Brago, King Eternal, Yore-Tiller Nephilim.

Balthor the Defiled is an amazing pay off card and enabler.

Razaketh, the Foulblooded is also not the worst creature to put into play. You can sacrifice a creature to get a combo enabler.

Saffi Eriksdotter can be used to bring Gyruda from the graveyard. The timing is a bit tricky, as with the legend rule you won't get any time to wait and see if you get a clone. You have to sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter with Gyruda trigger on the stack and hope to hit a clone.

Mirrorpool for another go.

You should have more mana acceleration; Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Lotus Bloom, Lotus Petal, Grim Monolith, Cabal Ritual.
Hitting Muldrotha, the Gravetide is also going to make same turn casting of cards much more practical as well with these types of cards.

Survival of the Fittest can help you to setup certain things and even filter away some of the not so great hits.
You can put Anger into graveyard to turn on the haste combos,

If you played some number of blink cards like Flicker of Fate, Justiciar's Portal, Momentary Blink, Siren's Ruse, then Torrential Gearhulk and Snapcaster Mage become enablers as well.

You'd obviously want to take out Rest in Peace with all this further graveyard interaction. If you are worried about opponents having the Eldrazi shufflers, the neat thing is that if Gyruda hits one, then you can in fact put those into play.
Mill the rest of your opponents out and then finish finally with putting their Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (or both if they have fallen into your trap) and then attack them with Annihilator with Anger in graveyard.
Last edited by darrenhabib 3 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

The reanimating enchantments feel real good to me. The 2 cmc ones anyway.

Rally the ancestors also feels likely very good if you have a few dead clones.

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Post by Ardeyn » 3 years ago

Wouldn't it be more effective to play Gyruda as the Commander so you can access odd-costed cards?
I'd be really interested in a version that goes for the Mortuary plus Sac Outlet plan.
You'd get Haunted Crossroads plus Phyrexian Altar as backup.
Then you could also play Nim Deathmantle with Ashnod's Altar as another combo backup where you need to reanimate a new creature each loop with Gyruda, sac Gyruda and the reanimated creature to have the mana to bring Gyruda back with the Mantle and thus mill everyone out. Not quite as reliable but if you yourself have enough even costed creatures, this should work.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Ardeyn wrote:
3 years ago
Wouldn't it be more effective to play Gyruda as the Commander so you can access odd-costed cards?
You lose access to white flicker and green clones, and Bramble Sovereign and Luminous Broodmoth. I don't think this is a deck without the 15 or so critical cards selesnya brings to the table personally.

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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

@darrenhabib - Your post is brilliant, thank you! I'll be tweaking my original post later today with some of your great suggestions.
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Ardeyn wrote:
3 years ago
Wouldn't it be more effective to play Gyruda as the Commander so you can access odd-costed cards?
You lose access to white flicker and green clones, and Bramble Sovereign and Luminous Broodmoth. I don't think this is a deck without the 15 or so critical cards selesnya brings to the table personally.
This, yeah. I think we at least need Green for ramp, Progenitor Mimic, Altered Ego, and Bramble Sovereign. II also feel the option to run Gyruda as a "8th card" and have a Plan B of a powerful commander is really exciting and ultimately worth the loss of Odd cards. From there I think the argument becomes....

Stay Sultai with Muldrotha, the Gravetide; this build will be slower and more inconsistent (I think you basically never infinite without Mortuary and/or Panharmonicon) but more resilient - you can use Muldrotha to replay clones or Gyruda every turn even if you whiff. You have a stronger Plan B of just playing a general sort of Muldrotha reanimator strategy that can also high roll into the win with Gyruda. And you have better mana.

Add a 4th-color with Atraxa, Praetors' Voice: Adding white adds a lot - we don't gain any clones, but we add a significant number of "hits" in the form of instant flicker effects like Restoration Angel. We also double our number of "Undying" enablers with Luminous Broodmoth and Athreos, Shroud-Veiled (to support Mortuary. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, and Nightmare Shepherd). And, if we must, we get all the delayed Flickers as well as more one-shot flickers to keep the combo cranking or turn Torrential Gearhulk into a "hit". For the record for 4 color, I think Atraxa >>>> Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - red adds less (although not nothing) to the strategy.

Or, go full 5-color with probably Ramos, Dragon Engine but Jodah, Archmage Eternal - Get the full range of nonsense at the cost of a shakier manabase. Probably the best option for those on an unlimited budget.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

It's highly probable that this deck is best as a 5c golos deck, with Golos providing additional spins for 7 mana. I don't think any general interacts better. It also fishes Volrath's Stronghold which provides additionl spins. Also High Market pretty good, and so on.

Being in red for these cards is also gross:
I think you could probably go infinite with conjuring + Phyrexian Altar pretty easily too :P

Oh bah. Golos doesn't work cos of the even :( Pah.

Still, the red has a *lot* to offer, including that dack's duplicate you mentioned.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Fun thread, looking forward to see where this lands in a final form :) I'm assuming Ramos. The red stuff is no slouch

I'll second Momentary Blink, as the flashback makes it so that even if you mill it you can still get a little use out of it. Brago, King Eternal seems like he'd be okay too for rebooting the chain. I'd go deeper on the whole sac + reanimation angle, as you're extremely reliant on Gyruda and are one Swords away from misery. Fast mana, and just more ramp in general, seems handy too.

Hoof seems like a pretty easy cut, in fairness.
 
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Oh well I put my own brew together using the bases of Hawks deck and my suggestions.

Its well...pretty inconsistent. I won 2 out of 6 3 out of 7 games. One I just cast Mortuary and then flipped a clone with Gyruda, and that's GG.

The rest of the games you cast it and of course it might only go for a couple of rounds of triggers, then you pass the turn. Then you probably have a clone in hand and try again and likely to whiff after a time or more likely opponents exile it and that's it, "game over man".

You really, really, really, really (and a few more really) need some other enablers to go off. You should really gave a sacrifice outlet.
Also you really (yup that word again) want to have played something like Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero, Luminous Broodmoth, Panharmonicon, Nightmare Shepherd, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed first before you cast Gyruda.

However I did manage to get one game where the only card I had in play as an enabler was Whisper, Blood Liturgist and I literally got a Turn 4 win, basically just naturally spinning the wheel indefinitely. I was able to use the Whisper, Blood Liturgist to sacrifice itself and another creature I had to bring back Luminous Broodmoth. This was enough that you get to double up on tries and this makes all the difference in the world.

Image

Actually the next game I played after I had posted this I got a another Turn 4 win, so things can be sweet with the right draws, but that is that same for anything I gues.

Image

I guess the only thing I should explain is that Dread Return i used to bring back Thassa's Oracle, but honestly you don't need that to win, you end up with millions of creatures in play once you've managed to get the Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero trigger and haste with Anger.
Also opponents libraries are milled out, so this is just backups to the Eldrazi shufflers.

So the changes that I would make are adding 2 tutors for setting up an enabler first. Diabolic Intent and Beseech the Queen and probably just take out Thassa's Oracle and Everflowing Chalice.
But thought I'd show you what I ran.

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Post by Hawk » 3 years ago

In my research today I found two cards I hadn't seen before that seem like slam dunks - one old, one new: Dual Nature and Mirror March. These are both as good as or possibly better than Panharmonicon and are definitely better than Flameshadow Conjuring because they don't require any mana investment on our part once we start the chain. They may not be better than Bramble Sovereign or Deadeye Navigator despite the "freeness" since they aren't hits off of Gyruda but I Think they're still worth testing. Also wondering if Molten Echoes (naming Kraken) is worth testing.

I think Dimir House Guard is a must-run. It's a zero mana sacrifice outlet AND transmutes into several of our key cards (Anger, Gerrard, Panarmonicon, Shepherd, Broodmoth, Mortuary, and Flameshadow if we're running it). Easily replaces either a weaker sac outlet or a weaker tutor - personally I think I prefer replacing Beseech the Queen.

I also wanted to actually do the math on "To run Gyruda in the command zone, or not to run Gyruda in the command zone" since it was a discussion point. Note that I don't think there's any angle here in running Gyruda in the 99. As darrenhabib just posted in his brilliant write-up, this deck is already a beautiful messy jankfest that needs a lot of moving parts to successfully work. To add onto that the need to find Gyruda in the 99 is just impossible. So our options are: "Gyruda as Commander, giving up white, green, and/or red to get access to Odd cards" or "Gyruda as companion".

Key Odd Cards - 5-7: Body Double, Mirror Image, Mercurial Pretender, Phyrexian Delver,Vesuvan Doppelganger, Vesuvan Shapeshifter, Quicksilver Gargantuan. I'm hedging because if you are turbo-comboing with turn 2/3 Heartless Summoning into turn 4 Gyruda, Doom of Depths, Body Double and Phyrexian Delver might be blank - but it is a live card once there are flickerers or something in the 'yard. We also get to run Minion Reflector, Mimic Vat, Conjurer's Closet, and much better sacrifice outlets (Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar chief among them) but I'm not 100% convinced those are pure upgrades. IF we're worried about free rolls, it is a lot more feasible to try and run Ghostly Flicker and/or Displace to turn Torrential Gearhulk into a hit as well. And of course we get the 1 and 3 CMC utility we sacrificed to Gyruda back - Sol Ring and Vampiric Tutor and all that.

Key Naya Cards - 6: Altered Ego, Progenitor Mimic, Dack's Duplicate, Felidar Guardian, Restoration Angel, Wispweaver Angel. We also miss out on several "slow blinks" (Charming Prince et al) and some of our best non-Mortuary, non-Panharmonicon enablers including Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero, Luminous Broodmoth, Bramble Sovereign, and a lot of the fun stuff I just posted. Oh, and Identity Thief, Apprentice Necromancer, and Whisper Blood Liturgist get a LOT worse without haste enablers.

For raw "Free roll "hits, it's actually a wash which is closer than I'd have assumed. But for overall deck power and consistency, I suspect it is correct to build around Companion. Still, it is close enough that I'm surprised at how worth testing it is.

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Lim-Dûl's Vault seems pretty relevant here, since you can setup to get Spark Double, so you can start cloning the non-legendary one and build a board of 6/6s.

Selective Memory can help thin the deck to increase hits.

Oh, and any consideration for Jodah, Archmage Eternal instead of Atraxa? Lets you add red, and can theoretically let you cast Gyruda for cheaper.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Hm, given the fact that the clones might not have the comfort of copying the spark doubled one, might be worth jamming Narcomoeba for Dread Return fuel purposes?
 
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Hawk wrote:
3 years ago
In my research today I found two cards I hadn't seen before that seem like slam dunks - one old, one new: Dual Nature and Mirror March. These are both as good as or possibly better than Panharmonicon and are definitely better than Flameshadow Conjuring because they don't require any mana investment on our part once we start the chain. They may not be better than Bramble Sovereign or Deadeye Navigator despite the "freeness" since they aren't hits off of Gyruda but I Think they're still worth testing. Also wondering if Molten Echoes (naming Kraken) is worth testing.
If you noticed I had cut Deadeye Navigator and Bramble Sovereign from my list, because I simply found that you never have mana for them. What tends to happen is that you are forced to cast Gyruda because the game has already gotten deep into the game when you've got 6 mana, and you have to do something proactive. Normally you have a clone or two in hand, so the plan is to cast him, and then next turn clone him for spinning the wheels again.
I was looking at Carnival of Souls and Mana Echoes as ways of getting additional mana, but they don't actually provide blue or green for Deadeye or Sovereign.

I like Molten Echoes, Dual Nature, Mirror March suggestions. I have found that the one color I don't play is Green, except for Gamekeeper, so the double green is a little hard to get.
I can't stress enough that to realistically have a chance at the indefinite spins, you have to have something the doubles your chances, so I'm going to say these are essential.
I think Dimir House Guard is a must-run. It's a zero mana sacrifice outlet AND transmutes into several of our key cards (Anger, Gerrard, Panarmonicon, Shepherd, Broodmoth, Mortuary, and Flameshadow if we're running it). Easily replaces either a weaker sac outlet or a weaker tutor - personally I think I prefer replacing Beseech the Queen.
That's a fair call. At the end of the day, its probably going to be one of these types of cards I'd be Demonic Tutoring for anyway, and setting up triple black on Turn 3 for Beseech is less likely than just being able to transmute on Turn 3 with double black.
I also wanted to actually do the math on "To run Gyruda in the command zone, or not to run Gyruda in the command zone" since it was a discussion point. Note that I don't think there's any angle here in running Gyruda in the 99. As darrenhabib just posted in his brilliant write-up, this deck is already a beautiful messy jankfest that needs a lot of moving parts to successfully work. To add onto that the need to find Gyruda in the 99 is just impossible. So our options are: "Gyruda as Commander, giving up white, green, and/or red to get access to Odd cards" or "Gyruda as companion".

Key Odd Cards - 5-7: Body Double, Mirror Image, Mercurial Pretender, Phyrexian Delver,Vesuvan Doppelganger, Vesuvan Shapeshifter, Quicksilver Gargantuan. I'm hedging because if you are turbo-comboing with turn 2/3 Heartless Summoning into turn 4 Gyruda, Doom of Depths, Body Double and Phyrexian Delver might be blank - but it is a live card once there are flickerers or something in the 'yard. We also get to run Minion Reflector, Mimic Vat, Conjurer's Closet, and much better sacrifice outlets (Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar chief among them) but I'm not 100% convinced those are pure upgrades. IF we're worried about free rolls, it is a lot more feasible to try and run Ghostly Flicker and/or Displace to turn Torrential Gearhulk into a hit as well. And of course we get the 1 and 3 CMC utility we sacrificed to Gyruda back - Sol Ring and Vampiric Tutor and all that.

Key Naya Cards - 6: Altered Ego, Progenitor Mimic, Dack's Duplicate, Felidar Guardian, Restoration Angel, Wispweaver Angel. We also miss out on several "slow blinks" (Charming Prince et al) and some of our best non-Mortuary, non-Panharmonicon enablers including Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero, Luminous Broodmoth, Bramble Sovereign, and a lot of the fun stuff I just posted. Oh, and Identity Thief, Apprentice Necromancer, and Whisper Blood Liturgist get a LOT worse without haste enablers.

For raw "Free roll "hits, it's actually a wash which is closer than I'd have assumed. But for overall deck power and consistency, I suspect it is correct to build around Companion. Still, it is close enough that I'm surprised at how worth testing it is.
Obviously this whole idea was more of a experiment, rather than anything else. Trust me the thought of running Gyruda as the commander is realistically the better build. The main reason being that you can recast it from the command zone, if it gets exiled. You can even purposefully get it killed if you run out of action to recast, aka Maelstrom Wanderer.
I got Gyruda Reality Shifted and Path to Exiled in a couple of games, and it that was that, I didn't really have a way to win.

In a Dimir version, you simply make up for less quantity of doublers, with tutors for the ones you can still play in Panharmonicon, Nightmare Shepherd.

But I've specifically wanted to makes decks with companions, so I'm being a bit head strong as far as keeping it janky with the 5 color build.

The other element of the deck, is that you are a clones deck, if you wanted to play that sort of fair game copying opponents creatures for fun.
Its not a strong game plan, but in the absence of Gyruda, at least you can do a few things.
But with the only even cmc its hard to play a fair game. If you got to play 1 cmc and 3 cmc, etc, you could probably setup more likely situations of multiple spells per turn.
So a Gyruda commander version doesn't have to be so much about the combo.

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