Haldan and Pako: Man's Best Friend

Peli
Posts: 11
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Peli » 3 years ago

Honestly, I think that this a very unique commander and it requires a very unique build.

I think the focus needs to be on getting Pako as many triggers as possible. If you get enough triggers, everything else will take care of itself.

Personally, I am planning to run a giant pile of ramp. I'm running every turn 1 ramp spell (all the elves, utopia sprawl, wild growth) plus all the best 2 drop mana rocks and 2 cost green ramp spells. (And Kodama's reach/cultivate of course)

By doing this I have a very good chance of hitting 5 mana on turn 3.

Because I'm in blue, I'm of course going to run rhystic study, consecrated sphinx, and mystic remora by default because extreme card advantage is crazy in any deck. I'm also running 8 extra turn spells because extra turns means extra combats not to mention extra land drops, card draws, and untap phases.

Because I'm in red, I'm going to run every extra combat phase card for more triggers.

Spark double, helm of the host, and strionic resonator are also awesome ways to get more Pako triggers.

Combine it all together, and you are going to get way more Pako triggers than normal. Which means a lot more things of your opponent's that you can play. Rather than try to protect Pako, my plan is just to keep ramping through the game paying tax with impunity until I eventually play something like expropriate or some other bomb that I stole from my opponent.

I really don't think you need ways to interact with your opponents in this deck. If you focus on ways to ramp and get more Pako triggers, you should be able to steal the defensive spells that you'd normally include. Your opponents are going to have tutors, counter spells, removal... if you solely focus on getting Pako out and swinging as fast and often as possible, you'll have access to all that.

Tags:

Peli
Posts: 11
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Peli » 3 years ago

I honestly think trying to put things on top of your opponent's library so that you can steal them is way too "pie in the sky". You need to focus on just having Pako on the board and you'll steal what you steal. I think by including cards that bounce things to libraries, you are just diluting your deck.

The biggest threats to you are almost always going to be creatures. This is a deck that is always attacking, while having almost zero good blockers in the list (and isn't in a color that has plentiful vigilance options). Plus you can't even steal creatures with Pako/Haldan. If you want to steal things from you opponent's board, there are blue decks that do that efficiently, Pako/Haldan just isn't that deck. IMO, you should replace those slots with additional ways to get Pako triggers with the intention of stealing and playing your opponent's removal. Once you've stolen a path to exile, it's face up and as long as Haldan is on the board you can cast it for 1 colorless mana any time. That's the way this deck plays defense. You take their answers and put them in a face up pile for all to see.

User avatar
ZenN
Posts: 455
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Canada

Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

That is all a very dangerous plan for a number of reasons.
  • If you just assume that opponents will have the interaction you need/want, you're going to lose a lot of games by simply not having answers.
  • The average Commander deck runs 35-40 lands and 20-25 creatures. Having played games with this deck, I can tell you straight up that you're going to hit lands more than anything else, and creatures nearly as often as spells. You're not going to get interaction off their deck nearly as often as you seem to think.
  • If you're not running your own ways to protect Pako and to make sure you're able to cast him and attack, you're going to get blown out constantly. Dedicating all your resources to trying to get more triggers and then just never being allowed cast him or attack is going to feel really bad, and just take you out of the game. Like, do you just scoop when someone casts Nevermore or Gideon's Intervention?
  • It doesn't matter how many things you steal from opponents, if you can't cast or keep a Haldan on the table then you don't get to use any of it.
  • Going all in on things like mana dorks to try to power out Pako as quickly as possible every game means you're going to have a lot of dead draws, a lot of dead flips with Pako, and have a lot of very vulnerable turns 1-3.
  • A lot of those, like Helm of the Host, are too slow and definitely not worth it.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

Samurai Dom
Posts: 1
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by Samurai Dom » 3 years ago

So I'm trying to build a semi-Budget decklist using some of the ideas brought up in this thread, and also to give people a better idea on how to build it on a budget. I would like some help to clean it up:
Deck
Show
Hide
Pako and Haldan (Budget)

Planeswalker (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

I know that Helm of the Host is not that good, but it's one of the only cards I currently own at the moment. I plan on buying most of the cards once I know what my deck will look like.

The goal is to have enough tools to beat my opponents with both Pako and Haldan. I would appreciate any and all feedback. Thanks!

User avatar
OCPunisher
Posts: 225
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by OCPunisher » 3 years ago

ZenN wrote:
3 years ago
That is all a very dangerous plan for a number of reasons.
  • If you just assume that opponents will have the interaction you need/want, you're going to lose a lot of games by simply not having answers.
  • The average Commander deck runs 35-40 lands and 20-25 creatures. Having played games with this deck, I can tell you straight up that you're going to hit lands more than anything else, and creatures nearly as often as spells. You're not going to get interaction off their deck nearly as often as you seem to think.
  • If you're not running your own ways to protect Pako and to make sure you're able to cast him and attack, you're going to get blown out constantly. Dedicating all your resources to trying to get more triggers and then just never being allowed cast him or attack is going to feel really bad, and just take you out of the game. Like, do you just scoop when someone casts Nevermore or Gideon's Intervention?
  • It doesn't matter how many things you steal from opponents, if you can't cast or keep a Haldan on the table then you don't get to use any of it.
  • Going all in on things like mana dorks to try to power out Pako as quickly as possible every game means you're going to have a lot of dead draws, a lot of dead flips with Pako, and have a lot of very vulnerable turns 1-3.
  • A lot of those, like Helm of the Host, are too slow and definitely not worth it.
I agree with just about all of this. Only part I question is the Nevermore part...haven't encountered that one yet, but I'm sure it's randomly out there somewhere.

In my limited testing of half a dozen games or so, I've found that you hit at least one land per trigger in a standard four-person game, and usually between 0-1 creatures, possibly more depending on how many Forests your opponents are playing. I have yet to play this against a mono-green or heavy green deck, but I can assume that the odds of missing by way of exiling a creature would go up.

At any rate, I've been far more successful putting key pieces on top of someone's library pre-combat than I have spamming extra triggers. Even on your best sequence, you're going to get maybe 3-5 random triggers per opponent, and about 35-40% of that will be land, and you'll need to keep Haldan on the table to use them, and have the mana to cast them all, and Pako will easily be in range of taking someone out from commander damage by then.

Bottom line: you can certainly try the all-in approach, but I'm gonna hang back a bit and just use him as a way to draw 2-3 extra cards per attack.
A deck for every color: Rakdos | Lord | Heliod | Yeva | Tetsuko | Scarab | Kykar | Kozz | Athreos | Haldan/Pako

Peli
Posts: 11
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Peli » 3 years ago

ZenN wrote:
3 years ago
That is all a very dangerous plan for a number of reasons.
  • If you just assume that opponents will have the interaction you need/want, you're going to lose a lot of games by simply not having answers.
  • The average Commander deck runs 35-40 lands and 20-25 creatures. Having played games with this deck, I can tell you straight up that you're going to hit lands more than anything else, and creatures nearly as often as spells. You're not going to get interaction off their deck nearly as often as you seem to think.
  • If you're not running your own ways to protect Pako and to make sure you're able to cast him and attack, you're going to get blown out constantly. Dedicating all your resources to trying to get more triggers and then just never being allowed cast him or attack is going to feel really bad, and just take you out of the game. Like, do you just scoop when someone casts Nevermore or Gideon's Intervention?
  • It doesn't matter how many things you steal from opponents, if you can't cast or keep a Haldan on the table then you don't get to use any of it.
  • Going all in on things like mana dorks to try to power out Pako as quickly as possible every game means you're going to have a lot of dead draws, a lot of dead flips with Pako, and have a lot of very vulnerable turns 1-3.
  • A lot of those, like Helm of the Host, are too slow and definitely not worth it.
Your logic literally makes no sense. You're getting cards from their decks. If the players you are against have a lot of removal, you will hit removal. If they don't have removal then you don't need answers to removal. If they have counter spells, then you will hit counter spells... BECAUSE YOU ARE PLAYING THEIR CARDS!!! How many answers are you going to run? If you run many then your deck doesn't function because it's comprised of a bunch of cards that are answers to threats that might not even exist (talk about dead draws). Run few and you won't have them when you need them anyway. You just can't do this. Put the stuff in your deck that you need for the deck to function. You're acting like on each attack you are getting 1 card. You aren't. You're getting 4! 3 of those cards aren't from your deck and only 1 is. So not running cheap dorks because you're afraid of hitting a dork on a trigger is nonsense. 75% of the value is coming off your opponent's decks. You're right that there is going to be stuff in there that you can't use. That's why you need to figure out ways to get more triggers.

You play things that are always good against every deck. You know what is ALWAYS good, no matter what you're playing against? Extra turns. There are like 3 versions of time walk for 5 mana. Your deck can not function on less than that anyway. There's several more that cost 6 or 7 which is easily achievable. If you have extra turns, you can afford to lose your commander to removal. You're getting extra land drops and card draws.

The entire fun of the deck is the lack of consistency. If you want consistency go play Chulane or any of the other boring cEDH commanders. This partner pair is about winning through inconsistency. That is literally why it is fun. The more triggers you have, the more likely it will be that you can find a line to victory from the muddled mess of cards that you've exiled.

You are playing a gimmicky chaos partner commander. This isn't a cEDH deck! This isn't a commander where the whole table is out to get you from turn 1. If they hate you off the table 3v1 there isn't anything that you can do, no matter how you build this deck. Honestly if your playgroup has a "nevermore" meta, find one that sucks less! And no... if they nevermore you, you don't have to just scoop. If you're playing ramp and bomb then you can still ramp up to enough mana to cast a bomb like expriopriate or insurrection.

Every deck has one thing that is cannot handle. Including cEDH decks... which again... this is not.
Last edited by Peli 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ZenN
Posts: 455
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Canada

Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

OCPunisher wrote:
3 years ago
I agree with just about all of this. Only part I question is the Nevermore part...haven't encountered that one yet, but I'm sure it's randomly out there somewhere.
I'll grant you, it was a bit of a hyperbolic example, but, as more and more stronger commanders get printed, and people gear their decks to rely on their commanders too much, Meddling Mage, Nevermore, and Gideon's Intervention are becoming better and better all the time. Definitely things I've been seeing more of as time goes on.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

Peli
Posts: 11
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Peli » 3 years ago

ZenN wrote:
3 years ago
OCPunisher wrote:
3 years ago
I agree with just about all of this. Only part I question is the Nevermore part...haven't encountered that one yet, but I'm sure it's randomly out there somewhere.
I'll grant you, it was a bit of a hyperbolic example, but, as more and more stronger commanders get printed, and people gear their decks to rely on their commanders too much, Meddling Mage, Nevermore, and Gideon's Intervention are becoming better and better all the time. Definitely things I've been seeing more of as time goes on.
There are plenty of things that your deck (and many others) are weak to. Someone plays a turn 3 destructive flow or blood moon when you only have 11 basics in the whole deck, you're screwed.

White is literally the least played color in commander. Cards like nevermore are often not played because they ruin the game experience for one opponent and do nothing against the other 2. If you have one player in your playgroup who is playing over-tuned decks, I can see it as an inclusion to hinder him specifically, But beyond that, in casual EDH, nevermore is not worth running cards specifically against. And you can't have nevermore in your command zone. So even if someone chooses to run it, chances are they don't see it in any given game and there is a 1/3 chance they play it against you if they do. If you get more Pako triggers, it increases the chances that you exile it and you're the one casting it against him.

User avatar
ZenN
Posts: 455
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Canada

Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Peli wrote:
3 years ago
nevermore is not worth running cards specifically against.
You don't run cards "specifically against" Nevermore, you play efficient interaction, like Nature's Claim, or catch all interaction, like Beast Within. The suggestion that you just shouldn't play any interaction in your deck is... frankly, quite mind boggling. But I guess if your play group is super casual then that might work out alright. :)
Peli wrote:
3 years ago
And you can't have nevermore in your command zone.
laughs in Zur the Enchanter
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

Artemis132
Posts: 20
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Artemis132 » 3 years ago

Peli wrote:
3 years ago
I think that this a very unique commander and it requires a very unique build.
ZenN wrote:
3 years ago
You could just throw in a Jace, Wielder of Mysteries as a way to win off the Infinite turns
I agree that this deck deserves a more 'fitting' (and maybe even 'unique') alternative wincon than just the usual and boring labman-draw-your-deck-plan you can find in every second cEDH deck.
Peli wrote:
3 years ago
I really don't think you need ways to interact with your opponents in this deck
Peli wrote:
3 years ago
If they have counter spells, then you will hit counter spells
I heavily disagree with this. You don't need to play a pure control deck, but if you attack people with an ever-growing dog they WILL remove / counter him a lot and you need some interaction to protect Pako. Speculating on stealing enough interaction seems to be a bad plan.

Peli
Posts: 11
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Peli » 3 years ago

Your dog doesn't need to ever-grow if you only care about triggers. It should be expected that he dies regularly. Unless you are running a bunch of ways to make him unblockable or give him trample, losing the counters isn't a big deal.

If they remove it, you just recast it for 2 more mana and if you're ramping that's not a big deal.
He has haste so with this mindset sorcery speed removal barely bothers you.
Wraths are honestly good for you because that probably means no blockers.

Haldan's effect can be used before giving your opponent's priority, that's even better than haste.

These guys are naturally resilient to removal if you just keep ramping.

You can either run a card like beast within and you might draw it or get it off his trigger. Or you can play a card like time warp which will get you an extra trigger giving you 3 additional chances at your opponent's "beast within" or "chaos warp" or "cyclonic rift".

You are 50% more likely to draw interaction off your opponents' deck with an additional trigger than you are to draw it off your deck by running it in your 99 because every turn you are drawing 1 card and seeing 1 more off the trigger, but you are seeing 3 of your opponent's cards.

I realize that not playing interaction is against convention. But playing cards from your opponents' decks usually isn't possible to the extent that this duo does it.

What excites me the most about this commander is that it is going to automatically adapt to your table. If they are playing powerful cards, you get to steal powerful cards and hence your deck will be more powerful. If they are playing bad cards, you are going to steal bad card. And your deck will be less powerful.

But the fact is that there are commander staples. You are going to trigger into those staples more often than anything else. And the most powerful card draw, ramp or removal, are going to be what you trigger into most commonly. because those staples take up 40-50 slots in every tuned commander deck. And happens to be true that 70-80% of those staples happen to be non-creatures.

User avatar
OCPunisher
Posts: 225
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by OCPunisher » 3 years ago

I'll say this about the different play-styles and deck-building approaches: there's more than one way to build a commander deck, and if you think you have a good one, then go out and try it, and post the results here afterwards.

On a different note, I proxied up a copy of the Shark-Nado today. We'll see if it's as good as it looks.
A deck for every color: Rakdos | Lord | Heliod | Yeva | Tetsuko | Scarab | Kykar | Kozz | Athreos | Haldan/Pako

Peli
Posts: 11
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Peli » 3 years ago

OCPunisher wrote:
3 years ago
I'll say this about the different play-styles and deck-building approaches: there's more than one way to build a commander deck, and if you think you have a good one, then go out and try it, and post the results here afterwards.

On a different note, I proxied up a copy of the Shark-Nado today. We'll see if it's as good as it looks.
I decided to run it in my deck list as well. With such a low creature density in my deck (18+2 commanders) and with none of the creatures that I am running having high combat stats, I think finding ways to get creatures even just for chump blocking is highly desirable.

Some other non-creature spells that I'm running for this reason:

Awakening Zone
Rite of Replication
Mind Control
Bribery
Control Magic
Treachery
Persuasion
Corrupted Conscience

I like that these are all either ramp spells or potential win conditions in addition to being ways to mitigate enemy attackers. I also think that running cheap dorks is good idea for the deck because they can also be chump blockers and effective wards against early game threats like infect creatures and threats like spawnwrithe in addition to being ways to ramp on turn 1, making it much easier to ramp on turn 2 and get Pako swinging on turn 3. And really they aren't wasted later in the game either if they allow you to cast haldan plus a big bomb from exile on a later turn.

Commander stealing with things like control magic can be a very potent political tool. If you make it clear to an opponent that if they kill your commander, that you are going to steal theirs, very often that's enough to force them to back off. A lot of times, politics is a better answer to something like nevermore than an actual answer to nevermore.

User avatar
OCPunisher
Posts: 225
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by OCPunisher » 3 years ago

Hmm, you make a good point about the Control Magic effects. Treachery and Corrupted Conscience would both be reasonable cards. The latter giving infect to a giant doggy sounds pretty good.

I had Bribery, Mass Manipulation, and Rite of Replication on my list of potentials, but all three ended up getting cut because I thought they were "too expensive". However, I'm finding that some of the other "fun" cards like Stolen Strategy and Sunbird's Invocation (*gasp*) are becoming less good here, so I might have some room.

I had a chance to play a couple more games over the weekend, and Shark Typhoon is exactly what this deck wants. The size of the creatures is mostly irrelevant for me, and the deck can easily pump out 2 or more per turn. I've also found that Mystical Tutor has been underwhelming for the most part, but there really aren't any other solid options except for Gamble, which isn't much better.

One last card I wanted to mention was Mythos of Illuna. I saw an opponent use it in a standard Arena game to copy my Shark Typhoon and started thinking about all the different things I could copy with it, including my own Shark Typhoon, plus it could easily get bought back. I'll be moving it high up the list as well.
A deck for every color: Rakdos | Lord | Heliod | Yeva | Tetsuko | Scarab | Kykar | Kozz | Athreos | Haldan/Pako

User avatar
Cyberium
Posts: 837
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Cyberium » 3 years ago

Given that cards with Fetch counter on it could be cast with any color of mana via Haldan, would it be iconoclastic to include Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon in your deck? You can just keep exiling cards with Pako and play your deck like (mostly) normal, while your opponents would be locked out of their nonbasics.

Peli
Posts: 11
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Peli » 3 years ago

Cyberium wrote:
3 years ago
Given that cards with Fetch counter on it could be cast with any color of mana via Haldan, would it be iconoclastic to include Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon in your deck? You can just keep exiling cards with Pako and play your deck like (mostly) normal, while your opponents would be locked out of their nonbasics.
You are still running a 3 color deck though. Other builds might get away with it but my decklist has way too many cards with double blue mana symbols that I will potentially want to cast from my hand.

There's no denying that it is a powerful effect though

Peli
Posts: 11
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Peli » 3 years ago

OCPunisher wrote:
3 years ago
Hmm, you make a good point about the Control Magic effects. Treachery and Corrupted Conscience would both be reasonable cards. The latter giving infect to a giant doggy sounds pretty good.

I had Bribery, Mass Manipulation, and Rite of Replication on my list of potentials, but all three ended up getting cut because I thought they were "too expensive". However, I'm finding that some of the other "fun" cards like Stolen Strategy and Sunbird's Invocation (*gasp*) are becoming less good here, so I might have some room.

I had a chance to play a couple more games over the weekend, and Shark Typhoon is exactly what this deck wants. The size of the creatures is mostly irrelevant for me, and the deck can easily pump out 2 or more per turn. I've also found that Mystical Tutor has been underwhelming for the most part, but there really aren't any other solid options except for Gamble, which isn't much better.

One last card I wanted to mention was Mythos of Illuna. I saw an opponent use it in a standard Arena game to copy my Shark Typhoon and started thinking about all the different things I could copy with it, including my own Shark Typhoon, plus it could easily get bought back. I'll be moving it high up the list as well.
Bribery is an auto-include in all my blue decks. In almost every game there is someone that is going to run some game-breaking creature. Ulamog, Avacyn, Blightsteel Colossus, Emrakul, one of the Praetors... for 5 mana. That is hard for me to pass on. Especially since if they are running a 2 card combo and you hit half of it with Pako (or mind control), you can tutor up the other half with bribery.

Mythos of Illuna is interesting tech. The Ozolith also seems like it could be decent for Pako since he generates a considerable amount of counters.

Another card I've been thinking about is Asceticism. Since the card protects both you commanders simultaneously (and your other creatures) and can save Pako and chump blockers from lethal combat damage (or deathtouch) and some board wipes (blasphemous act) it seems to do a lot. I'm a little ho-hum about running boots since Pako already has haste and Haldan doesn't care about haste but asceticism seems like it would do a lot for the deck and fill a similar role.

I also like Darksteel plate and whispersilk cloak over either of the boots in this particular deck.

User avatar
OCPunisher
Posts: 225
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by OCPunisher » 3 years ago

Another day, another win for our good ol' boy. This time, the Shark-nado went the distance. The card is just incredible, and has easily cemented itself as a must-play in this deck.

On another note, I've been feeling pretty lackluster about a few of the cheaper cantrip spells, namely Growth Spiral, Explore, and Telling Time. I thought the first two would help put more lands into play, but they've been missing more than they hit. Telling Time has been a very poor man's Brainstorm, and I'm thinking that the deck needs a few more "teeth" (see: Sharknado) and less durdle. Has anyone else had a positive or negative experience with any of these?
A deck for every color: Rakdos | Lord | Heliod | Yeva | Tetsuko | Scarab | Kykar | Kozz | Athreos | Haldan/Pako

User avatar
ZenN
Posts: 455
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Canada

Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

I only have Growth Spiral of those in mine, but I'm never unhappy to see it.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I don't think growth spiral or explore belong in a deck where you're trying to get to 5 mana early - too good a chance of just stealing your 4th land drop and not getting there. Not unless there is a big landfall theme. I probably wouldn't play farseek, rampant growth or nature's lore either but that's probably just me. Maybe nature's lore just because it's good fixing and one less mana negative.

This deck really needs to be playing Ponder and Serum Visions and Portent and Preordain in my opinion. They're just so good with Pako and they also help you hit that ramp spell or land drops and are very mana efficient and double at setting up Pako triggers with specific things you want fetched.

I think you could go down to 39 lands (38 w/Maze) if you add ponder/portent/preordain (although serum visions might be better than portent in this deck).

I do think there's a pretty good likelihood you want Burgeoning because its ceiling is so high. And Green Sun's Zenith + Dryad Arbor are clutch in this deck; remember you can GSZ for Dryad or Swordtooth (I do that a lot in Wanderer, though more Azusa or Excavator, same idea). Oracle too ofc. and Finale of Devastation is also excellent. Does a decent Farseek impression early game.

I have a really hard time not thinking this deck should be playing Intuition Gamble and Life from the Loam if possible as well. 3 powerful hits off Pako that ensure you're getting to Pako mana on their own (by gambling/intuitioning for Loam).

User avatar
ZenN
Posts: 455
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Canada

Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

I'll be honest, I disagree to at least some extent with almost everything @pokken just said, except for dropping the land count. At 37 lands I've never failed to hit the lands I need to get Pako going, and then once he is going I've never run out of drops available to me from other people's lands.

The cheap cantrips that let you set up the top are probably fine, like Ponder and Preordain, but honestly they just don't feel necessary to me. They're so low impact, and with the sheer volume of resources you end up with, there's little need to bother setting up the top of your own library outside of times when you're trying to dig for something specific. That said, the cheap top deck manipulation gets better and more important if you're playing a higher creature count, because hitting your own creatures with Pako feels bad. My list only has 4 creatures in it, though.

The idea of including noncreature cards that give you creatures is cute. Most versions of this deck aren't going to cast enough spells per turn cycle to make something lower impact like Saheeli, Sublime Artificer really work very well, but Shark Typhoon is probably fine, and Bribery and Mind Control type effects are usually fine in most decks.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

User avatar
Ertai Planeswalker
Posts: 143
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Apeldoorn, The Netherlands

Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 3 years ago

I ordered my copy of the duo today, and plan to make it an "everything you got, but better" type of deck like Jacob's on the command zone. Major ramp and just play my opponents spells against them, taking the best of each one. So i'll be running clone effects, copy effects and a decent amount of cards that enable extra land drops. Ideally, i'm playing 2 to 3 lands per turn once Pako gets going.

With the experience you guys already have, what cards should i be looking for to definitly run in that version?

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6283
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I don't understand why you would ever want to draw Rampant Growth in this deck over Green Sun's Zenith. Being able to tutor out an extra land drop effect mid-game that lets you play all the lands you get off Pako is insane. Enough that I would really be thinking about Azusa (which you mentioned earlier).

Eschewing Finale and GSZ for rampant growth/farseek is pretty icky even with the low creature count. You can Finale for 10 and get a hasted 16/16 Etali as a bomb endgame play but you can also GG ramp with dryad arbor :P

User avatar
ZenN
Posts: 455
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Canada

Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I don't understand why you would ever want to draw Rampant Growth in this deck over Green Sun's Zenith. Being able to tutor out an extra land drop effect mid-game that lets you play all the lands you get off Pako is insane. Enough that I would really be thinking about Azusa (which you mentioned earlier).

Eschewing Finale and GSZ for rampant growth/farseek is pretty icky even with the low creature count. You can Finale for 10 and get a hasted 16/16 Etali as a bomb endgame play but you can also GG ramp with dryad arbor :P
Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor is a fine ramp play, but it's both very fragile and adding another creature to the deck. Plus, drawing Dryad Arbor just sucks so much.

Whether or not Green Sun's Zenith or Finale of Devastation are worth it here will depend mostly on creature count. More creatures makes them better, but probably makes the overall deck worse. With only 4 creatures in my list, I couldn't really see myself running both, but Finale is definitely worth considering. It does have the benefit of taking a creature out so you don't hit it later, and even if you're out of creatures in the library it's not completely dead, as it can either reanimate something or just be a really expensive pump spell for Pako.

Nature's Lore is more than good enough, and Farseek is just at the good enough line if you're not willing to shell out for Three Visits. Totally agree about Rampant Growth, though. That card sucks.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

User avatar
ZenN
Posts: 455
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Canada

Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
3 years ago
I ordered my copy of the duo today, and plan to make it an "everything you got, but better" type of deck like Jacob's on the command zone. Major ramp and just play my opponents spells against them, taking the best of each one. So i'll be running clone effects, copy effects and a decent amount of cards that enable extra land drops. Ideally, i'm playing 2 to 3 lands per turn once Pako gets going.

With the experience you guys already have, what cards should i be looking for to definitly run in that version?
For extra land drops, Azusa, Lost but Seeking is basically the best at what she does, and Mina and Denn, Wildborn has been an absolute all-star for me, because Pako really wants trample.

As for stealing stuff, I've found that Pako does plenty of that on his own and I haven't felt the need to fill the 99 with more ways to take stuff. Much rather have more ways to ensure I can keep swinging with Pako as much as possible.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”