Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town

[Kitsune_18]

Good point about the enchantments. I think I like that a lot better honestly. I don't play the full suite of fetchlands, just the 3 on-color, but I do have shocks and original duals along with a slightly higher count of basic forests (4). Should I be too worried about not having a forest for Utopia Sprawl?

In regard to Mana Crypt, money isn't a huge issue for me and if the price drops even a little with Double Masters I'd probably pick it up.

[ZenN]

Should I be too worried about not having a forest for Utopia Sprawl?

Do you also play Canopy Vista, out of curiosity? How about Prismatic Vista? I'm assuming you've probably got... at least 7 forests, and at least... 5 ways to go find a forest? I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Kitsune_18]

I'm considering Canopy Vista, but I think I'd run some of the fetches that can get duals before I ran Prismatic Vista.

[Mr_Webman]

Thanks again for the very detailed response you gave me on mana bases. It helped me a lot to be honest.

Mana Crypt is expensive, but very, very strong. It can make for some absolutely ridiculous starts, but even later in the game the sudden extra 2 mana on a turn can make for some surprise plays that are much stronger than what the opponent was ready for. Just the other night I had a game where I curved Trinket Mage, getting Mana Crypt, into Eldrazi Displacer + flicker Mage and go get Sol Ring. With the land drops, went from 3 mana to 9 mana in 2 turns, and had lots of mana to flicker things with that Displacer.

Noble Hierarch is obviously a solid card, but honestly, if there was another card like Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth, that costs 1 and allows a land to tap for 2, I'd probably swap out for that instead. I'd definitely play those two enchantments before an Avacyn's Pilgrim (in a Derevi version, at least; not so much with Jenara).

So since adding the painlands, would you say Eldrazi Displacer has been more consistent with you? I'm asking because I'm debating whether to add him to my list or not. I feel like I have enough colorless to make use of him, I just find it hard to leave up 3 mana all the time to make use of him.

[ZenN]

Thanks again for the very detailed response you gave me on mana bases. It helped me a lot to be honest.

No problem. I'm glad it was helpful for you.

So since adding the painlands, would you say Eldrazi Displacer has been more consistent with you? I'm asking because I'm debating whether to add him to my list or not. I feel like I have enough colorless to make use of him, I just find it hard to leave up 3 mana all the time to make use of him.

Yeah, the few extra colourless sources have seemed to be enough, so far. As for holding up the mana, Derevi usually helps with that a lot, with untap triggers, but also the harder you ramp the easier it is to have extra mana lying around.

Thing is, generally speaking, when you get a Displacer on the table, that just becomes your thing. With a Displacer and one or two good ETB creatures on the table, you start spending your turns just holding up mana. You don't need to build much board presence, just accumulate value for a couple turns, and hold up some mana to answer other people, and flicker your own stuff with the left overs.

[Kitsune_18]

So since adding the painlands, would you say Eldrazi Displacer has been more consistent with you? I'm asking because I'm debating whether to add him to my list or not. I feel like I have enough colorless to make use of him, I just find it hard to leave up 3 mana all the time to make use of him.

One thing I will add regarding colorless mana sources is that the filter lands (Wooded Bastion, Mystic Gate, and Flooded Grove) are great colorless/colored sources in combination or as an alternative to the pain lands. I personally prefer them to the pain lands, but have in the past run a combination of both.

Also I second everything ZenN said about holding up mana with Eldrazi Displacer. Displacer often represents such a strong value engine that it doesn't even feel like I'm detracting from my game plan to hold up 3 mana.

[Kitsune_18]

I thought it might be cool to talk about some of the cards from your (and @ISBPathfinder's) old Jenara list and your original Derevi list that haven't made the transition to this iteration of Value Town. I'm especially interested because a number of these are cards I'm trying to still run in my version of Derevi or are in contention for the last couple open slots.

Stoneforge Mystic and the Sword of Feast and Famine / Sword of Fire and Ice package

Mystical Tutor

Fact or Fiction

Glen Elendra Archmage

Scavenging Ooze / Stonecloaker

Mystic Snake, Cryptic Command

Archon of Valor's Reach

[ZenN]

Stoneforge Mystic and the Sword of Feast and Famine / Sword of Fire and Ice package

As time went on, this packaged just felt less and less worth it. The Swords are strong, but I found myself rarely wanting to spend the mana to cast and equip them, especially given how little value I ever ended up actually getting out of them. More often than not, I got one trigger out of them at most before they got blown up.

Mystical Tutor

The biggest appeal of this is for going to get Time Warp, but it was also good for finding a counter or a Sphinx's Revelation or something. I don't remember when/why I cut this. Probably got cut in favour of more creatures and/or more creature tutors.

Fact or Fiction

Dumping some things in the yard is lovely for things like Reveillark and Karmic Guide, but my group has really upped its graveyard hate game, so it often ended up hurting me to be preemptively filling my yard. I ended up cutting this for Rhystic Study, which I've been very happy with.

Glen Elendra Archmage

Over time I reduced the count of counters in favour of being a bit more proactive. It has worked well for me. Glen is a strong card, but it's also something the opponent always sees coming (barring surprise Chord of Calling and such, of course). It's good at taxing opponents though, if that's what you're trying to do.

Scavenging Ooze / Stonecloaker

With my group having upped their graveyard hate, I have felt little need to pack a ton of my own. I've been pretty satisfied with just having Soul-Guide Lantern, plus several ways to go find it and/or recur it. If/when I ever decide I need more graveyard hate, I'd probably drop Charming Prince for Stonecloaker, and/or Restoration Angel for Angel of Finality.

Mystic Snake, Cryptic Command

Just like I said with Glen Elendra Archmage, it's mostly just that I've switched away from being more reactive to being more proactive. I occasionally miss Mystic Snake, but not enough to include it. Especially given how important the 4 drop slot is in the Derevi version of the list, given how often I actually Birthing Pod away Derevi herself, I don't really want to eat up a 4 drop slot with something I don't want to play out normally.

Archon of Valor's Reach

This was a fun card, especially in combination with clones. It got cut out when I cut back the tax subtheme in favour of a more pure ETB list, but I wouldn't fault anybody else for running it. It's just not currently one of my 6 drops of choice.

[Kitsune_18]

Thoughts on any of the new cards from M21 and Jumpstart? There are quite a few interesting/powerful cards that might find homes in my other decks, but there doesn't seem to be many that are obvious includes for Derevi. I've got a few that I'll be considering and at least 1 that I'm actively testing: Teferi, Master of Time. He tries to mitigate one of the things that makes planeswalkers not great in EDH outside of dedicated Superfriends decks, but I'm not sure if he'll ascend to staple status or if this deck is even the right home for him. I think he's worth trying.

The other cards that I might test later on are Ghostly Pilferer, Emiel the Blessed, and Sublime Epiphany. Thoughts on any of these?

Out

Fact or Fiction
Pact of Negation

In

Teferi, Master of Time
Fierce Guardianship

[Mr_Webman]

Thoughts on any of the new cards from M21 and Jumpstart? There are quite a few interesting/powerful cards that might find homes in my other decks, but there doesn't seem to be many that are obvious includes for Derevi. I've got a few that I'll be considering and at least 1 that I'm actively testing: Teferi, Master of Time. He tries to mitigate one of the things that makes planeswalkers not great in EDH outside of dedicated Superfriends decks, but I'm not sure if he'll ascend to staple status or if this deck is even the right home for him. I think he's worth trying.

The other cards that I might test later on are Ghostly Pilferer, Emiel the Blessed, and Sublime Epiphany. Thoughts on any of these?

I'm not ZenN, but I thought I'd offer my opinion at least as I've thought about these 4 cards as well. Any discussion is always good.

Teferi, Master of Time is obviously an absurd card for EDH and gets even more ridiculous when you build to abuse him. I agree with the Command Zone that he's not an auto-include like Cyclonic Rift (thank god), but he's pretty darn close. But does he have a place here? I honestly think it depends. Even just keeping him alive for a full turn cycle will net you insane value, and Derevi makes a great chump blocker. My main issue with him is that my playgroup has also gotten pretty crafty lately with their grave hate, and I feel like looting 3+ times a turn cycle will make it even more tempting to exile my graveyard or key pieces I discard. He also doesn't have much synergy with the rest of the deck, but he might be so powerful that it really doesn't matter. Definitely worth testing in my opinion.

Ghostly Pilferer I'll probably pass on. Paying to draw a single card just doesn't seem that efficient to me, even when using Derevi's ability to possibly do it a couple of times. I guess he is only 2 mana, and potentially drawing a couple cards early on from people casting their commanders might make him worth it. Late game though he just seems meh. I wish I could activate when he becomes tapped so I don't have to waste him attacking, but I know that's not on theme of the card. Oh well.

Emiel the Blessed though I'm pretty interested in; he's one of the more powerful blink engines we've seen in a while. The immediate comparison that comes to mind is our much-discussed Eldrazi Displacer. However, I don't think it's as simple as swapping one out for the other. I've recently been testing using the Displacer and while I do really like him, I would be lying if I said the requirement didn't hurt. That's the main thing Emiel has going for him; blinking with 3 of any color. But to me the main draw of Displacer comes with the fact that he can blink my opponents creatures, which has come in clutch more often than I thought it would. If you're going for combos though, I do think Emiel absolutely trumps it. Definitely worth further discussion.

Sublime Epiphany I honestly have no clue how to feel about lol. I do agree that it can potentially have a huge effect on the board, but 6 mana is a lot to hold up. Yes Cyclonic Rift costs 7, but that will have a huge impact no matter what your opponents are doing. I do love just how insanely versatile the card is, though. I feel like I'd probably get too greedy waiting for the perfect scenario when I can use the most modes, only to get severely punished for it lol. I also have no clue what I'd even swap out for it as there's nothing like it already in my list or ZenNs'. Simply comparing it to a Counterspell and the like doesn't do the card justice.

[ZenN]

Thoughts on any of the new cards from M21 and Jumpstart? There are quite a few interesting/powerful cards that might find homes in my other decks, but there doesn't seem to be many that are obvious includes for Derevi. I've got a few that I'll be considering and at least 1 that I'm actively testing: Teferi, Master of Time. He tries to mitigate one of the things that makes planeswalkers not great in EDH outside of dedicated Superfriends decks, but I'm not sure if he'll ascend to staple status or if this deck is even the right home for him. I think he's worth trying.

The other cards that I might test later on are Ghostly Pilferer, Emiel the Blessed, and Sublime Epiphany. Thoughts on any of these?

Hey, sorry it took so long to reply, I've been crazy busy the last few days and it kind of slipped my mind!

Nothing from M21 really jumped out at me, and the only thing I remember being remotely interested in for this deck from Jumpstart was Emiel the Blessed, but I'm pretty sure that's worse than other options. To be honest, I'm pretty confident that Teferi, Master of Time is actually not very good unless you're specifically benefiting from looting in some way. Even in a 4 player game, you're unlikely to get more than a few loots out of him before he dies. There will be the odd time when you cast him and just get lucky enough -10 him in a couple turns, but most of the time it'll just be paying 4 to loot a few times, and that's definitely not really worth it.

Sublime Epiphany has a lot of words and all of the versatility, but 6 mana is so, so much. I would put Cryptic Commandback in here long before I'd play Epiphany. Or even Mystic Confluence.

[benjameenbear]

I agree on Sublime Epiphany. It looks powerful but 6 CMC kills the card on arrival.

Wanted to chime in and thank you for maintaining this thread here on Nexus. I recently converted my Yarok deck into a Golos deck specifically to take advantage of some white Blink engines for my ETB value list.

How has Thassa and Soulherder performed for you? I like that they passively trigger ETB abilities but they seem fairly weak otherwise since they don't do anything by themselves. I've not had the experience to play against them often so my lack of data leaves me ambivalent. For reference, I'm already running Shrieking Drake, Dream Stalker, Aminatou, the Fateshifter, Ghostly Flicker, Felidar Guardian, and Deadeye Navigator as my blink package. I'm leaning towards including Charming Prince, Thassa, Deep-Dwelling, or Soulherder over the Dream Stalker, hence my asking.

EDIT: My list, for reference.

SPOILER

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Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim

Mana Sources (13)

1 Mana Crypt

1 Sol Ring

1 Mana Vault

1 Deathrite Shaman

1 Farseek

1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Bloom Tender

1 Incubation Druid

1 Faeburrow Elder

1 Wood Elves

1 Solemn Simulacrum

1 Mirari's Wake

1 Ulvenwald Hydra

Blink/Bounce (5)

1 Dream Stalker

1 Ghostly Flicker

1 Aminatou, the Fateshifter

1 Thassa, Deep-Dwelling

1 Deadeye Navigator

Recursion (4)

1 Regrowth

1 Eternal Witness

1 Havengul Lich

1 Phyrexian Delver

Bombs/Favorite Cards/Mana Sinks (5)

1 Phantasmal Image

1 Phyrexian Metamorph

1 Yarok, the Desecrated

1 Nyxbloom Ancient

1 Memnarch

Removal (17)

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Assassin's Trophy

1 Mana Drain

1 Countersquall

1 Counterspell

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Gilded Drake

1 Beast Within

1 Toxic Deluge

1 Knight of Autumn

1 Spell Queller

1 Voidslime

1 Ravenous Chupacabra

1 Venser, Shaper Savant

1 Massacre Girl

1 Noxious Gearhulk

1 Agent of Treachery

Card Draw/Card Advantage (12)

1 Skullclamp

1 Baleful Strix

1 Coiling Oracle

1 Fblthp, the Lost

1 Dark Confidant

1 Risen Reef

1 Midnight Reaper

1 Dread Presence

1 Guardian Project

1 Mulldrifter

1 Tatyova, Benthic Druid

1 Prime Speaker Zegana

Tutors (8)

1 Demonic Tutor

1 Diabolic Intent

1 Fiend Artisan

1 Eldritch Evolution

1 Birthing Pod

1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Rune-Scarred Demon

1 Protean Hulk

Lands (35)

1 Field of the Dead

1 Ancient Tomb

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Indatha Triome

1 Zagoth Triome

1 Mystic Sanctuary

1 Command Tower

1 Forbidden Orchard

1 Reflecting Pool

1 Exotic Orchard

1 Golgari Rot Farm

1 Simic Growth Chamber

1 Watery Grave

1 Underground Sea

1 Overgrown Tomb

1 Bayou

1 Breeding Pool

1 Tropical Island

1 Godless Shrine

1 Scrubland

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Tundra

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Polluted Delta

1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Flooded Strand

1 Marsh Flats

2 Forest

2 Swamp

2 Island

Approximate Total Cost:

[ZenN]

@benjameenbear Since you're already playing a few of the one-off bounce to hand creatures, kinda seems like Stonecloaker or the new Niambi, Esteemed Speaker might be good candidates for you. Both with flash, and both with some extra effects, which is nice.

As for Soulherder and Thassa, Deep-Dwelling, I've been very happy with both. They're extra valuable here because of how many ways I have to tutor for creatures. In particular, I love that I can Birthing Pod Derevi herself into Thassa.

Thassa is definitely the stronger of the two. She's hard to remove, and you'd be surprised at how many times I've either killed someone or saved myself with her Flood ability. And with a decent number of blue pips in the deck, it's generally pretty easy to turn her on if I want to, and have a solid beater/blocker.

Soulherder is a mana cheaper but much easier to remove. That said, the fact that it gets bigger of any creature exile has been surprisingly relevant, and there have been a few times where after a turn cycle I find myself with a sudden 8/8. Even without any good combat abilities, it's nice to either be able to start taxing boards by forcing blocks or else just hold up a large blocker to protect myself.

[pokken]

I e-tutor for Thassa more than almost anything else in Ephara. It's game-defining. If I stick Thassa my chances of losing are very low. I would definitely play it in Derevi, especially since you can just blink Derevi for land untaps in the worst case.

The chief advantage of Soulherder is you can Recruiter of the Guard for it; going recruiter herder blink recruiter = kaboom time.

The number of games I have won soulherdering/thassa'ing a cloned Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is more than one so I am sure both would be amazing in Golos, but I would err on the side of just Thassa in your list @benjameenbear. She's easier to cast and you aren't running Recruiter.

[benjameenbear]

@ZenN @pokken
Thanks for the insights on Thassa and Herder. Thassa it will be.

I like having Shrieking Drake alongside Yarok to spam/save dudes from Wraths, but spending more mana to recast stuff never feels too good. I'll probably forego Niambi or Cloaker accordingly.

Lastly, does Chulane just clutter up the deck? It's another pseudo-Blink effect and can help get lands out of my hand and the value with Shrieking Drake is well-demonstrated.

[ZenN]

Lastly, does Chulane just clutter up the deck? It's another pseudo-Blink effect and can help get lands out of my hand and the value with Shrieking Drake is well-demonstrated.

I think Chulane, Teller of Tales in the 99 would feel meh. Kinda slow, and unless the deck is built around abusing him then his ability is just fine. He would be great sometimes, but feel pretty lackluster more often than not, I think.

[benjameenbear]

I'll take your advice on that, @ZenN. I like to theory-craft a lot but don't get too many chances to actually play out.

I'm probably also going to be taking out the Counterspells from the deck because my playgroup is tired of me being the Counter-guy. My brother sarcastically asks me if every action/spell he casts resolves, even if I'm not playing a Blue deck... and my wife isn't far behind. So I'll add in Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Protean Hulk instead.

[ZenN]

So I'll add in Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Protean Hulk instead.

Haaaaaaaah. A+

[benjameenbear]

I won't be countering things, lol. I'll just be doing stupid broken value stuff instead...

Thanks for your insights, everyone. I'll be placing an order soon to celebrate my 30th birthday and I appreciate your gents' insights.

[ZenN]

celebrate my 30th birthday

Happy birthday. I think all I did for my 30th was get drunk and play cards with a couple close friends.

[benjameenbear]

Thank you kindly!

I just checked CardKingdom and Emiel is preselling for $30-ish right now. Wow.

[ZenN]

I just checked CardKingdom and Emiel is preselling for $30-ish right now. Wow.

$50ish here in Canada. Gross. Definitely not worth that. I can only assume it's because of the current delays with Jumpstart.

[Mr_Webman]

So I think I'm finally ready to show you guys my list, and I would love any and all feedback.

As you can see, it's very similar to ZenN's list, with a few differences. The main difference is some of my choice of creatures. I like to take advantage of the suite of blink and ETB options bant offers, while also taking advantage of Derevi's untap on combat trigger. To this effect, I run many creatures which create tokens when ETB so I can have more potential untap triggers for Derevi. Since I'm going to be attacking quite a bit, I also run a couple of cards that draw me cards when my creatures deal damage to an opponent.

SPOILER

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Mr_Webman's Derevi

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander (1)

1 Derevi, Empyrial Tactician

Artifacts (5)

1 Sol Ring

1 Birthing Pod

1 Soul-Guide Lantern

1 Mana Crypt

1 Skullclamp

Creatures (34)

1 Noble Hierarch

1 Bloom Tender

1 Charming Prince

1 Gilded Drake

1 Phantasmal Image

1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Eternal Witness

1 Trinket Mage

1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

1 Faeburrow Elder

1 Knight of Autumn

1 Mirror Entity

1 Recruiter of the Guard

1 Soulherder

1 Spellseeker

1 Wood Elves

1 Clever Impersonator

1 Emiel the Blessed

1 Solemn Simulacrum

1 Thassa, Deep-Dwelling

1 Urza,Lord High Artificer

1 Cavalier of Dawn

1 Deep Forest Hermit

1 Karmic Guide

1 Mulldrifter

1 Reveillark

1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

1 Kogla, the Titan Ape

1 Prime Speaker Zegana

1 Sun Titan

1 Angel of Serenity

1 Resolute Archangel

1 Craterhoof Behemoth

Enchantments (6)

1 Utopia Sprawl

1 Wild Growth

1 Sylvan Library

1 Survival of the Fittest

1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc

1 Reconnaissance Mission

Instants (11)

1 Enlightened Tutor

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Path to Exile

1 Swan Song

1 Counterspell

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Mana Drain

1 Eladamri's Call

1 Beast Within

1 Chord of Calling

1 Fierce Guardianship

Lands (35)

1 Breeding Pool

1 Hallowed Fountain

1 Temple Garden

1 Tundra

1 Misty Rainforest

1 Windswept Heath

1 Flooded Strand

1 Strip Mine

3 Forest

3 Plains

3 Island

1 Tropical Island

1 Savannah

1 Command Tower

1 Mana Confluence

1 City of Brass

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Ancient Tomb

1 Sea of Clouds

1 Bountiful Promenade

1 Gaea's Cradle

1 Fabled Passage

1 Waterlogged Grove

1 Canopy Vista

1 Prairie Stream

1 Gavony Township

1 Lotus Field

1 Reflecting Pool

1 Alchemist's Refuge

Planeswalkers (2)

1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

1 Teferi, Master of Time

Sorceries (6)

1 Wargate

1 Austere Command

1 Finale of Devastation

1 Dusk // Dawn

1 Eldritch Evolution

1 Time Warp

Approximate Total Cost:

[TheAmericanSpirit]

Another potential replacement for displacer would be Emiel the blessed from Jumpstart.

[ZenN]

Another potential replacement for displacer would be Emiel the blessed from Jumpstart.

Yeah, we discussed him a couple times earlier in the thread. Seems fine, though current price tag is ridiculous.
I'm not convinced Emiel the Blessed is better than existing options, but definitely good enough to consider.

@Mr_Webman List looks fine. Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Teferi, Master of Time both feel very out of place. Urza, Lord High Artificer is a cute addition. How has he worked out for you? Also, despite the higher cost, I would probably consider Ohran Frostfang over Reconnaissance Mission. Creatures are way easier to tutor for in this list, and easier to recur (Frostfang also comes back off Reveillark), and the extra effect of giving all your attackers deathtouch is incredibly relevant, and makes it that much more likely that you'll be able to get your damage triggers.