Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Elspeth does seem like it doesn't quite fit all that well. I think Teferi is ok as a generically powerful card that you can easily protect with da Bird. Getting a couple of extra turns would be back-breaking for any ETB value deck like this, and it's even popped up in some cEDH lists as a way to sculpt a hand.

Perhaps you've given voice as to why C. Sphinx isn't in the deck? I was reconsidering it with Golos since I can Neoform or Pod into it after resolving my Commander. And C. Sphinx runs away with games if it survives a full turn cycle. It does paint a huge target on your back though.

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
Perhaps you've given voice as to why C. Sphinx isn't in the deck? I was reconsidering it with Golos since I can Neoform or Pod into it after resolving my Commander. And C. Sphinx runs away with games if it survives a full turn cycle. It does paint a huge target on your back though.
Honestly, that last bit is a big part. It's one of those cards that turns the game into archenemy a lot of the time, and unless I'm already way ahead that's probably bad news for me. I wouldn't fault anybody else for playing it in here. I've played it in the past, but 6 drop slots are few and I've opted to keep them to things that benefit from ETB shenanigans in the current incarnation. I often get as much draw out of a Prime Speaker Zegana as I would out of a Consecrated Sphinx over a few turns anyway, without painting as big of a target.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Fair point. I was playing a few games this past Sunday and I was targeted in both games, despite the fact that I played fair strategies and was the only one controlling the board. I'm strongly considering dropping the gloves and just converting my previous list into something more cutthroat, hence my question.

Has the 5-6 Counterspell count been decent enough for your games? Or have you found yourself itching to have one in hand at any time?

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
Has the 5-6 Counterspell count been decent enough for your games? Or have you found yourself itching to have one in hand at any time?
Funny you ask, as I was actually just recently thinking about how I might want one more. That said, with multiple ways to tutor for a creature at instant speed, Venser, Shaper Savant may as well count for 3 or 4 on his own. Still, there's a good chance I eventually find a spot for one or two more.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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pokken
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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Spell Queller has always been super good to me.

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Post by Kitsune_18 » 3 years ago

I suppose this is heavily meta-dependent, but what is everyone's suite of counterspells? I currently run Fierce Guardianship and Tale's End alongside the obvious Counterspell and Mana Drain. And Venser, Shaper Savant if you want to count him. At different points in time I've included Pact of Negation, Glen Elendra Archmage, and Disallow. Swan Song is hugely popular and probably the best counterspell I'm not playing. And Cryptic Command is, well, Cryptic Command... If I were to find room for one more piece of permission it would likely be one of those, but your mention of Spell Queller got me thinking more broadly. There are a couple pieces of "pseudo-counterspells" that seem quite powerful, too, namely Narset's Reversal and Teferi's Protection. Both can serve the function of a counterspell in a lot of situations and both can sometimes be huge blowouts and just cause you to win out of nowhere.

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Post by Mr_Webman » 3 years ago

Thanks for the feedback guys! Although I'm curious, what makes you guys say Elspeth, Sun's Champion isn't worth it? Especially for my list, she's been a knockout for me. It's very rare for me to have many creatures with power 4 or greater on my side of the field, so she often gets rid of most creatures I want to get rid of without hurting my own. She also makes 3 creatures a turn for me to potentially get triggers off of Derevi. Teferi, Master of Time is there mostly because I was just testing him, and he's done ok so far. I probably won't keep him though; he draws a lot of attention to himself and me, similarly to the aforementioned Consecrated Sphinx.
Known as TheGodOfWar91 on MTGSalvation

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

In my opinion, Elspeth is a decent choice as a Wrath effect and Token producer. But for the same mana investment, you might be able to get a little more value out of a different card. It's a close call, because the synergy of Elspeth in the deck is apparent, but another ETB creature could be better for you.

For my Golos deck (which is basically a 4 color version of Derevi, hence my posting here) I'm running Countersquall (foily!), Mana Drain, Arcane Denial, Venser, Shaper Savant, Counterspell, and Voidslime. I'm contemplating adding in either Swan Song and/or Disallow. I could also see Mystic Confluence getting a trial run as well.

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Post by DeadPresident » 3 years ago

I've always run a little higher on counters because I generally receive a little more attention at tables than I'd like and I almost always need to be able to protect going for the win.

Currently my set of counters includes Familiar's Ruse, Counter Spell, Arcane Denial, Render Silent, Cryptic Command, Venser, and Mystic Snake. I could see swapping out some for a few of the options also mentioned here (I really like the idea of Swan Song) but I can't say I've ever noticed not being happy with any of them. The Familiar's Ruse + E Wit line has helped me grind out quite a few late game wins.

Just to chip in a little with the big threats like C Sphinx conversation; I feel like I've systematically also moved to lower advantage/lower threat cards over time and reserved certain cards to play almost exclusively when I go for the win, and as far as possible I try to stay the second biggest threat at the table in terms of board development and play sequencing so that it isn't appealing to throw to many resources into impeding me specifically. All that garbling mostly to say that if you've got a choice between a blatantly powerful card and a subtly powerful card I've found it more helpful to veer towards the subtle most of the time.

Elspeth also seems fairly decent, similar in effect to Austere Command and synergizes nicely with Derevi or stuff like Craterhoof Behemoth.

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Good call on Familiar's Ruse! I forgot about that card, and it's a nice way to recycle ETB abilities.

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Post by DeadPresident » 3 years ago

I've always enjoyed it, I tend to interact quite enthusiastically and often, usually picking up something like Coiling Oracle, Rec Sage, E Wit, Venser, etc. It's a little cute but most of the time I get good utility out of it, and it'll make good sense in any list that leans towards ETB over other common Derevi sub-themes.

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Lovely to see some good conversation going on here!

I would like Familiar's Ruse so much more if the bounce was just another effect of the spell instead of an additional cost. Being unable to cast it when you don't have a creature out is mildly concerning, though not likely to often be an issue, admittedly. It's certainly cute. Might be worth considering.

Seeing mention above of Arcane Denial, all I can do is reiterate how much I dislike that card. Basically the only time I'm willing to play it is in a combo deck, where they never actually get a chance to draw the cards. Delay is sweet for that, too.

If I do decide to include another counter spell, I think my short list is like (in no particular order): And... sure, why not. Familiar's Ruse can be short list too.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

The utility of being able to counter any spell with Arcane Denial has come in handy for me often. The card draw also helps take the sting out of the play, which is a concern for my playgroup since I'm known as the Counter guy. It's also easier on the mana cost, particularly with my 4 Color ETB build that's extremely similar to this deck style and strategy.

I also include it in my builds that capitalize on Wheel effects a la Notion Thief, Smothering Tithe, and Narset, Parter of Veils. In those builds, Denial acts as another synergy piece to help fuel my own Card Advantage engines. I readily admit it's the weakest Counterspell I've played with because of the Card Advantage it generates. I usually treat it the way I would Path to Exile; sometimes you just need the Counterspell and have to be ok with giving away resources to your opponent to stay in the game.

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Post by SaintForthigan » 3 years ago

I've been playtesting your deck a fair bit over the past few months, as well as some iterations of both your old Jenara list some hybrids between the two, and I've really enjoyed the play patterns your present list generates. One thing that I've found myself going back to however, has been the retrofitting of Jenara as the commander of the deck. In my games, while the ability to use Derevi to untap something like a Bloom Tender has definitely been nice for holding up the odd bit of protection or removal, I often feel like I'm missing a sink for the mana and that Derevi doesn't offer quite the same alternative threat as Jenara if someone tries to shut down our combo lines. What was it that convinced you to make the swap between them?

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

@SaintForthigan Thanks!

My switch to Derevi, Empyrial Tactician from Jenara, Asura of War was motivated by a few things. Off the top of my head:
  • It came to a point where Jenara wins were getting rarer and rarer, as people in my group were ready for me to go for a pumped Jenara win later in the game and often had an answer.
  • Beyond the ability to beat face, Jenara just didn't offer much utility.
  • Derevi allows for huge mana advantages, pseudo-vigilance, tap/untap shenanigans, surprise blocks, surprise taps (especially useful against a frend's Thraximundar deck), etc etc.
  • Derevi's combat trigger ability pairs very nicely with a deck full of a lot of 1 and 2 power creatures that I usually don't mind throwing away.
  • If you aggressively tutor for Birthing Pod, having constant access to a 3 CMC creature to Pod away without stacking up obscene commander tax is lovely.
Overall, I've definitely been happier with Derevi than I was with Jenara. I do occasionally miss the ability to beat down with her, but the trade-off is easily worth it to me. I totally get what you're saying about not necessarily having a good use for the extra mana you can produce, but it just might be a matter of needing to play a few more mana sinks, or tutor for the mana sinks you do have more aggressively. I usually find a good use for all the extra untaps, even if it's just as simple as multiple uses of Gavony Township per turn cycle.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by DeadPresident » 3 years ago

I think it'll be the trajectory of many Jenara/Rafiq players (that play in a consistent/regular group) to eventually have to consider a commander with additional utility simply because players will quickly begin to adjust their threat assessment to neutralize Jenara sufficiently.

I still prefer how my deck played when Jenara was at the helm, I like the heavy-hitter approach, but I see Derevi more as a results-based choice simply because the objective power of her abilities allow the deck to be a lot more resilient and robust. Being able to exploit cards like Mana Vault to better benefit and always having a commander (with a strong ETB) available for 4 mana quickly outweighs the simple strength of an evasive threat.

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

@DeadPresident That all seems like a pretty reasonable take on things.

@benjameenbear Curious question, in your Golos ETB list, which is the extra colour you're playing, and why not just go the whole way with all 5?
I did make some attempts at playing this as WUBG, with Atraxa, Praetors' Voice for a bit, and with Thrasios, Triton Hero + Ravos, Soultender for a bit. Having black definitely added a lot of nice things, but I ended up feeling like the deck got muddied and unfocused in the process.
Last edited by ZenN 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

@ZenN My Golos list is based off of a Yarok list that I had built originally, so the splash color is actually White in my list. My Yarok list was my casual, value-based Commander that consistently kept on losing. He didn't do anything from the Command Zone in terms of Card or Mana Advantage and he was always targeted. In a particular game that made me critically evaluate my Yarok list, I was playing Yarok against two Golos decks and they were dominating the table with their mana advantage and ability to cast cards for free. One of them was Tribal Angels and the other was Tribal Dinosaurs. There curves were awful, their lists didn't pack the spread of Removal or Card Advantage most lists typically run YET Golos made them work.

I thought to myself, "Well, I've already got a solid Sultai ETB deck, I might as well make Golos the Commander and tutor for Yarok instead." The deck's consistency WAY improved and even though I still get targeted I have much more presence within the games I play. I then began to think about some White cards I could be playing (Mirari's Wake instead of the Gilded Lotus, those kinds of substitutions) and I started exploring some White cards. Lavinia of the Tenth and Aminatou, the Fateshifter were the cards I was most keen to add to the deck since I'd played them previously in an Aminatou Stax deck. I then began to expand the decklist from there, and there's now a 15% White color representation to the deck.

The deck feels very cohesive to me. Having a Commander that synergizes stupendously with Blink effects has been critical and the ability to cast 3 cards off the top when I'm low in Cards in hand means that I'm never really out of the game. And being able to tutor for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to turn on Dread Presence has been incredible, as one of the notable synergies of the deck. Fetch lands and Golos ETB ability with an active Presence can clear a battlefield pretty significantly for me while padding my life total or replenish my hand. It's been such an incredible synergy, actually, that Gray Merchant of Asphodel is starting to feel obsolete/redundant to the Presence.

I think the key for the deck is the fact that Golos has an ETB that synergizes with the Core strategy of the deck so that way every card has maximal synergy with the rest of the deck. I can certainly see why you might have struggled with Atraxa or a Partner mechanic for an ETB list; those Commanders separately don't flow with the main strategy of abusing ETB effects and draw attention to you in a negative way from the get go. Derevi probably does the same thing, attracting negative attention, but at least she synergizes with the deck and provides excellent mana advantage when her ability is taken advantage of.

EDIT: My least favorite color in MTG is Red. I hate it. It stems from my brief stint when I played Standard and I felt like I only ever lost to RDW decks. Dying to stupid Goblin Guides and Lightning Bolts was infuriating. Then I found Commander, where RDW decks basically don't exist. Further, I can't really think of any Red cards that significantly boost the power of an ETB based list that aren't already played in sans Red lists.

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

@benjameenbear Yeah, Atraxa, Praetors' Voice didn't synergize at all, she was just a decent beat stick in the command zone with good keyword abilities. With Thrasios, Triton Hero and Ravos, Soultender, though, at least I was getting a bit of synergy in that I had a wincon outlet in the command zone for the couple of ways I had to make infinite mana, and also a way to both recur and pump my little creatures.

I think the main issue I had was that once I added black I found the deck started to feel like an amalgam between this and my old Sedris, the Traitor King list. Which, at the time, was certainly not ideal since I still had Sedris around, but now that I don't it may be worth considering the addition of another colour again. That said, with the current card pool, I do think it's probably stronger to go with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, 'cause he's just so strong. I don't know that I could resist a little red splash though, even if I agree with you and it's also my least favourite colour in Magic.

There are some notable red cards you could be playing that could add to any respectable ETB deck. Just a few off the top of my head...
Dockside Extortionist
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (admittedly not good for splashing, because stupid RRR)
Zealous Conscripts
Sneak Attack
Flameshadow Conjuring
Nicol Bolas, the Ravager // Nicol Bolas, the Arisen
Offspring's Revenge (also admittedly not great if white and red are your splashes, but man this card is sweet)

Also, I'm like 72% sure that if I were to be playing a Golos helmed version of this list I'd be running Mythos of Snapdax over my current Tragic Arrogance.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Yeah, Golos is admittedly just a generically good Commander that brings an absurd amount of consistency to any EDH deck. I personally wouldn't be surprised to seem him banned at some point, but that's EXTREMELY unlikely because of how popular he's become and the complete variety in builds that are present.

That's a good list of Red cards @ZenN, and of those I would really want to find room for Bolas because he's one of my favorite characters in MTG (I refuse to consider War of the Spark as being relevant to Bolas's storyline).

I think the only one I'd want to consider beyond Bolas is Dockside Extortionist because of how much mana that thing outputs. It often at the minimum generates 2 Treasures and can get WAY out of hand in the mid-late game. I just don't think that the changes to the mana base are currently worth it to me and I've been enjoying Golos as is and Sakura-Tribe Elder has been good enough as a 2-drop Ramp guy at the moment.

Sad to hear that Sedris has passed along. He's one of the coolest-looking cards of all-time imo.

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

@benjameenbear Sedris, the Traitor King is definitely super cool looking. Looks like something you'd fight in a Doom game.

As for changing up your mana, I'd assume you at least have some red production now to activate Golos, right? So in theory you probably could get away with just putting in the one or two red cards without really changing anything, if you really wanted to. But I get not wanting to shake up the status quo if you're happy with the list as is.

I think Dockside Extortionist and Sneak Attack are the two main ones I wish I could be playing. Just such strong cards. Sneak does kind of demand a slightly higher amount of red mana production to ensure you can activate it, but if you're only really concerned with activating it once or twice per turn cycle then it's no big deal.

In any case, even if I do end up trying to add more colours to this again at some point, it won't be any time in the near future. I'm quite happy with how this list is playing out currently, and there is still tweaking I want to do just within Bant.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

The only r producing lands I have in the deck are Command Tower, Mana Confluence, Exotic Orchard, and Reflecting Pool. I've often considered adding in the RUG Triome since I tutor for Forests so heavily but I haven't felt the need to do so. I only ever want to activate Golos's ability in situations where I'm down Cards in hand so that he's not totally oppressive. But that's a side-note...

I recently upped the Counterspell density in my deck to 7 slots all around and it's been feeling much better in goldfishes. I currently have Spell Queller in the deck to see how it performs since a significant number of powerful EDH cards sit under the 4 CMC range, including a host of Commanders like Kaalia, Partners, Breya, Yawgmoth, Brago, Animar, etc.

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
I recently upped the Counterspell density in my deck to 7 slots all around and it's been feeling much better in goldfishes. I currently have Spell Queller in the deck to see how it performs since a significant number of powerful EDH cards sit under the 4 CMC range, including a host of Commanders like Kaalia, Partners, Breya, Yawgmoth, Brago, Animar, etc.
Yeah, Spell Queller definitely hits a lot of relevant stuff. It's a consideration. I'll be interested to hear how happy you are with it.

I think my main concern about Spell Queller is that it's not often great for blinking, since you're then giving back whatever spell you tried to stop, outside of the few instances when changing the timing of that spell (like an opposing counter or something) just makes it useless.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

I think that being able to control the timing of the Queller'ed spell is actually a pretty big deal in terms of controlling tempo. Sure, the exiled spell will come back but ideally when I'm in a better position to be able to handle the exiled spell. Queller helps to buy time so that I can find a card that can answer the exiled spell, since I imagine that most opponents will let the spell go to exile in hopes that they'll be able to get it back.

Queller also opens up some interesting ETB cruelty if you have an instant speed flicker effect a la Deadeye Navigator or Eldrazi Displacer. Yes, you can blink the Queller with its original ETB ability still on the stack. Its LTB ability will trigger and resolve, doing nothing since the Spell hasn't been exiled by Spell Queller yet. Then the OG Queller ability resolves and the spell is exiled forever since the new Queller's LTB ability isn't tied to the OG Queller trigger.

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
Queller also opens up some interesting ETB cruelty if you have an instant speed flicker effect a la Deadeye Navigator or Eldrazi Displacer. Yes, you can blink the Queller with its original ETB ability still on the stack. Its LTB ability will trigger and resolve, doing nothing since the Spell hasn't been exiled by Spell Queller yet. Then the OG Queller ability resolves and the spell is exiled forever since the new Queller's LTB ability isn't tied to the OG Queller trigger.
Yeah, it's got the same old wording as Oblivion Ring and such where it's two separate triggers, so you can abuse it that way. But I feel like the times that's particularly relevant are going to be few and far between, and it's a lot more resource heavy than if you just had a Mystic Snake instead, for example. With the Snake and a Deadeye Navigator or an Eldrazi Displacer you're going to be dealing with things a lot more efficiently, and the initial creature only cost a single mana more.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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