Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town

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Kitsune_18
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Post by Kitsune_18 » 3 years ago

How have the one shot blink/flicker creatures Charming Prince and Restoration Angel been for you?

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Kitsune_18 wrote:
3 years ago
How have the one shot blink/flicker creatures Charming Prince and Restoration Angel been for you?
Charming Prince has only actually come up a couple of times since I included him, but the few times he has been solid. None of his modes are supremely powerful or anything, but I really like his versatility. Mostly he has flickered something more relevant for me, and then served either as a chump blocker, an extra body for a Derevi trigger, or fodder for a Birthing Pod or Eldritch Evolution.

Restoration Angel has led to some pretty awesome surprise plays, and the 3/4 flying body is solid enough. If I do end up deciding to put in an Archaeomancer at some point, though, it's probably going in over Resto. Man, I wish Archaeomancer sucked less. Like, for being a strictly worse ability than Eternal Witness, and a less aggressive body, you'd think it would at least only cost 3.

Mostly unrelated, after spending a bunch of time looking at Kogla, the Titan Ape for my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, I actually started thinking about including it here. It's a really strong body, with a solid ETB ability, and a strong attack trigger. Plus, it's yet another card that can fill the role of recurring Eternal Witness for the infinite turn lines.

If I did put in a Kogla, I'm pretty sure it would be over Deadeye Navigator. Having DEN back in the deck for the last while has been cool and all, and any game I can stick him and protect him, with any decent ETB creature on the table, I'm getting way ahead. But, every time he does hit the table I get collective groans from my opponents, even if he's not nearly as strong in this format as he once was, and I can't ever just play him out because it immediately tuns the game against me, which means I can't just do it as a value play to get to blink something a couple times for bonus triggers.

Now, where's that's partly related to what I was saying above is that cutting DEN means cutting several possible combo lines, while Kogla only plays into one of the combos. In that combo, Eternal Witness is the only single point of failure, with there being a second "Time Warp", and having like 10 ways to recur an E Wit each turn. Archaeomancer is probably the best E Wit backup for that, even if he sucks, and he's another human which means Kogla still fills that part of the combo regardless of which piece I get.

Maybe I'll get lucky and an upcoming set will contain a better alternative (like a 3 mana Archaeomancer, or a 4 mana Eternal Witness)...
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
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Post by Kitsune_18 » 3 years ago

ZenN wrote:
3 years ago
Charming Prince has only actually come up a couple of times since I included him, but the few times he has been solid. None of his modes are supremely powerful or anything, but I really like his versatility. Mostly he has flickered something more relevant for me, and then served either as a chump blocker, an extra body for a Derevi trigger, or fodder for a Birthing Pod or Eldritch Evolution.

Restoration Angel has led to some pretty awesome surprise plays, and the 3/4 flying body is solid enough. If I do end up deciding to put in an Archaeomancer at some point, though, it's probably going in over Resto. Man, I wish Archaeomancer sucked less. Like, for being a strictly worse ability than Eternal Witness, and a less aggressive body, you'd think it would at least only cost 3.

Mostly unrelated, after spending a bunch of time looking at Kogla, the Titan Ape for my Maelstrom Wanderer deck, I actually started thinking about including it here. It's a really strong body, with a solid ETB ability, and a strong attack trigger. Plus, it's yet another card that can fill the role of recurring Eternal Witness for the infinite turn lines.

If I did put in a Kogla, I'm pretty sure it would be over Deadeye Navigator. Having DEN back in the deck for the last while has been cool and all, and any game I can stick him and protect him, with any decent ETB creature on the table, I'm getting way ahead. But, every time he does hit the table I get collective groans from my opponents, even if he's not nearly as strong in this format as he once was, and I can't ever just play him out because it immediately tuns the game against me, which means I can't just do it as a value play to get to blink something a couple times for bonus triggers.

Now, where's that's partly related to what I was saying above is that cutting DEN means cutting several possible combo lines, while Kogla only plays into one of the combos. In that combo, Eternal Witness is the only single point of failure, with there being a second "Time Warp", and having like 10 ways to recur an E Wit each turn. Archaeomancer is probably the best E Wit backup for that, even if he sucks, and he's another human which means Kogla still fills that part of the combo regardless of which piece I get.

Maybe I'll get lucky and an upcoming set will contain a better alternative (like a 3 mana Archaeomancer, or a 4 mana Eternal Witness)...
This post spoke to me on so many levels lol. I'm pretty sure I've had the exact thoughts on most points at one time or another.

I hear you about Archaeomancer. Depending on how politically-minded/desperate for a second copy of Eternal Witness at 3 cmc you are, you could consider Skullwinder. The drawback is often trivial and it has interesting political applications. There is also Greenwarden of Murasa which is something I'm trying at the moment because I haven't found a third 6 cmc creature I'm completely satisfied with yet (currently play Prime Speaker Zegana, Sun Titan, +1). I feel like we say this about a lot of cards, but one thing Archaeomancer has going for it is it's place in the Birthing Pod chain. Even if we are stuck with pod and an empty board we can bring out our commander to pod away to find it.

Ah Deadeye Navigator. You bring up a point that not all players consider/acknowledge when deck-building: the ability of certain powerful cards to turn the table against you (I'm looking at you Consecrated Sphinx, but even a turn 1 Sol Ring can do it). I think it's strictly a multiplayer phenomenon since in 1v1 you're already 100% against your lone opponent. On paper including these card seem like no-brainers, but as you mentioned, it doesn't always work out in practice and is often better to go with something less polarizing.

It's funny you bring up Kogla, the Titan Ape since I just played against it yesterday and saw it do some nice work in my friend's Mayael the Anima deck. I had already been considering it in my Yeva, Nature's Herald deck and, after seeing it in action, will definitely include it there, but hadn't given it a second thought for this deck. I didn't even consider that it can bounce Eternal Witness (and a handful of other useful creatures we already play) until you mentioned it. Gives me something to ponder.

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Kitsune_18 wrote:
3 years ago
Ah Deadeye Navigator. You bring up a point that not all players consider/acknowledge when deck-building: the ability of certain powerful cards to turn the table against you (I'm looking at you Consecrated Sphinx, but even a turn 1 Sol Ring can do it). I think it's strictly a multiplayer phenomenon since in 1v1 you're already 100% against your lone opponent. On paper including these card seem like no-brainers, but as you mentioned, it doesn't always work out in practice and is often better to go with something less polarizing.
It's definitely a very overlooked property of certain cards. There are some things that are too good to not play, in spite of their tendency to polarize the table against you. For example, Survival of the Fittest. Any time I play with people who know the deck, a Survival on the table represents me maybe going infinite at any time in my next couple of turns.

Basically leaves you with a few options for such cards:
  1. Don't play them.
  2. Sandbag them until you know you can win, which will often leave you with an effectively dead card in hand.
  3. Just play them out, get your one or two uses and be happy with that.
I've been leaning somewhere in between 2 and 3, generally speaking. I'll hang onto my Survival for a while, but I won't hesitate to throw it out there to get blown up if I just really need to go find something. If giving up my Survival for the sake of finding a Prime Speaker Zegana to refill my hand means I now have an answer for when my opponent tries to win, that's a whole lot better than if I'd just kept waiting for my moment to try to combo off.

As for Eternal Witness backup, yeah I know that Skullwinder and Greenwarden of Murasa exist, but eeeeeh. The drawback on Skullwinder is much a much higher cost than I'm willing to pay, as giving an opponent a free Regrowth is pretty huge. Greenwarden at 6 is okay. It would also likely replace Deadeye Navigator. 6 is a lot for the effect, though. If he was a something like a 6/6 trample I'd be way more inclined.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
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Post by Mr_Webman » 3 years ago

Niambi, Esteemed Speaker seems really good for this deck! What do you think ZenN?
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Mr_Webman wrote:
3 years ago
Niambi, Esteemed Speaker seems really good for this deck! What do you think ZenN?
She's alright. A slow way to repeat an ETB effect or to save a creature, and a way to dig a bit more through the deck, if you've got a solid concentration of Legendary cards. My current version has only a handful, so I'm not sure she'd do all that much for me, but she could be better if you've got like 10+. I think she'd take the same spot as where I currently have Charming Prince.

Unrelated, I played a couple games with this deck on Friday night. Continued with Cavalier of Dawn in over Body Double, and this time slotted in Kogla, the Titan Ape over Deadeye Navigator. Saw both in the first game. Cavalier killed a Chandra, Awakened Inferno, which I was pretty pleased with since I was at 16 and already had 2 emblems, then got Birthing Podded into Kogla, and Kogla killed a Tatyova, Benthic Druid, then also got Podded into Resolute Archangel. This all happened in the same turn, thanks to Derevi untapping Pod. I ended up winning that game with Sun Titan + Birthing Pod + Eternal Witness + Time Warp.

Second game I didn't see either of them, but I did finally get to play a relatively early Risen Reef, followed up by a Mulldrifter and a Phantasmal Image to copy Mulldrifter, which felt pretty great. Sadly, when it was just down to me and one other, I lost to a Price of Progress that hit me for 24, at the end of that player's turn in response to me flashing in a Restoration Angel that would have flickered a Prime Speaker Zegana to draw me 7 cards, and put enough power on the table to swing back for lethal. Oh well, it was a good game. :)
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Post by Kitsune_18 » 3 years ago

Glad to see you're having good results with the new cards! I got a few games in this weekend as well. Unfortunately the new cards didn't come up as often as I'd have liked. Saw Yorion, Sky Nomad once and it more or less immediately ended a game I was probably going to win anyway, so not much feedback to give there. Kogla, the Titan Ape sat in my hand all of one game; I was more concerned with playing the rest of my hand and didn't want to spend a turn to play him out. I will note that I never once had Birthing Pod and both of these cards might have had a chance to shine more if I had gotten them into play off of that.

I did end up slotting in Archaeomancer just to give it a shot and it performed well. One game by reciting some tutors and removal and another it ended up winning me a game by recurring Time Warp. It is kind of nice having a pseudo-copy of Eternal Witness despite the inferior stats. I'll definitely continue testing it out.

Didn't see Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath or Nezahal, Primal Tide.

I will say that both Spellseeker and Soulherder (especially paired with Reveillark) were huge MVPs in multiple games this weekend.

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Kitsune_18 wrote:
3 years ago
Glad to see you're having good results with the new cards! I got a few games in this weekend as well. Unfortunately the new cards didn't come up as often as I'd have liked. Saw Yorion, Sky Nomad once and it more or less immediately ended a game I was probably going to win anyway, so not much feedback to give there. Kogla, the Titan Ape sat in my hand all of one game; I was more concerned with playing the rest of my hand and didn't want to spend a turn to play him out. I will note that I never once had Birthing Pod and both of these cards might have had a chance to shine more if I had gotten them into play off of that.

I did end up slotting in Archaeomancer just to give it a shot and it performed well. One game by reciting some tutors and removal and another it ended up winning me a game by recurring Time Warp. It is kind of nice having a pseudo-copy of Eternal Witness despite the inferior stats. I'll definitely continue testing it out.

Didn't see Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath or Nezahal, Primal Tide.

I will say that both Spellseeker and Soulherder (especially paired with Reveillark) were huge MVPs in multiple games this weekend.
Spellseeker has been on my short list for a long time. I'm not entirely sure why I've never actually found a slot for her.

Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath is definitely a strong card, but I'm not entirely convinced he's going to shine here. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though.

Still looking forward to more news on Yorion, Sky Nomad.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by Kitsune_18 » 3 years ago

I've been on the fence lately about converting my Jenara, Asura of War list to Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. Not counting land choice the two lists are about 80% the same. I would certainly make some inclusions such as Bloom Tender and Faeburrow Elder, but even so I'd probably only move to about 90% the same.

There have been games where I really wanted Jenara to be Derevi, but there have also been games where Jenara just goes unanswered and I attack my way to victory. Most games it wouldn't make much difference either way, but occasionally simply being able to untap even a single mana source would allow some big plays. On the other hand, some games I don't even cast Jenara until late in the game after the dust has cleared and people are out of answers and she closes the game out.

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

The ability to sometimes single-handedly close out a game is definitely the one thing I miss from Jenara, Asura of War, but I feel like I've won many more games because of what Derevi, Empyrial Tactician offers.

Two of the biggest things I get from Derevi that have specifically put me into very good situations on a regular basis are:
  1. Making 6 mana on turn 3 off of a turn 2 Bloom Tender (cast Derevi, target Tender for untap, tap for GWU in response, then untap resolves and tap to make GWU more).
  2. Abusing Birthing Pod with untap triggers (especially being able to Pod away Derevi into a 4 drop, then replay Derevi to untap the Pod and turn that 4 into a 5).
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
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Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Derevi offers an instant kill with pod too iirc, going →

Pod derevi into Felidar Guardian
pod felidar guardian into Karmic Guide
pod karmic guide into Deadeye Navigator, pair with guardian blink pod
pod guardian into Peregrine Drake

Or something close to that.

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
Derevi offers an instant kill with pod too iirc, going →

Pod derevi into Felidar Guardian
pod felidar guardian into Karmic Guide
pod karmic guide into Deadeye Navigator, pair with guardian blink pod
pod guardian into Peregrine Drake

Or something close to that.
You are correct, but that's not specific to Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. You can do the same thing with Jenara, Asura of War. It's just easier to make sure Derevi is available for a low cost. I've mentioned that one a couple times earlier in the thread. I've chosen not to play it mostly to avoid putting the game into archenemy whenever I play a Birthing Pod, but it's a solid combo line.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Oh, I remembered, having Derevi lets you do it with another 3-drop and Restoration Angel so you don't have to play felidar guardian if you don't want? Or maybe it's just that you can blow 4 mana for another untap in the middle, making more pod chains. Whatevs :)

But needless to say I agree with your assessment that Derevi's toolset is better than Jenara's. The ramp, the combat tricks, the combo with Deadeye Navigator and Gilded Lotus or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and enough pips, etc.

I had my own Jenara ETB toolbox deck back in the day and it always felt worse than Derevi.

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
combat tricks
Ah yes, one of the other huge boons I forgot to mention is being able to flash her in on an opponent's turn defensively. I've done this many times. In particular, there's a Thraximundar deck in my group, and I have staved off death many, many times by flashing Derevi in pre-combat to tap down Thrax.
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Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by Kitsune_18 » 3 years ago

@pokken I'd be interested to see your current list, too. Do you have a link?

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Kitsune_18 wrote:
3 years ago
pokken I'd be interested to see your current list, too. Do you have a link?
My last Derevi deck is lost to the ravages of the internet unfortunately lol :) I think I have my last Jenara ETB build:

https://deckbox.org/sets/970427

It was not real good.

If I were to build Derevi again I would probably play stax vs. etb. because cloning Archon of Valor's Reach really appeals to my inner jerkface.

I think ZenN's build is pretty darned close to perfect as an 8/10 bant etb deck, not sure what I would even do differently aside from peculiarities of the manabase.

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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
If I were to build Derevi again I would probably play stax vs. etb. because cloning Archon of Valor's Reach really appeals to my inner jerkface.
Oh yeah, when I had a stax subtheme going on I was definitely playing Archon of Valor's Reach, and LOVED cloning it multiple times. There were at least two specific games I can remember where I managed to have 5 copies of Archon on the table at once. (real one, Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, Clever Impersonator, Body Double)

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I think ZenN's build is pretty darned close to perfect as an 8/10 bant etb deck, not sure what I would even do differently aside from peculiarities of the manabase.
D'aww, shucks. :)
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Post by Mr_Webman » 3 years ago

I have a lot of questions coming up so just bear with me lol. :grin:

So for my version of the deck I'm trying to figure out what I want my ramp package to be. I've noticed a lot of lists nowadays don't include anything over 2 cmc as ramp because it simply isn't fast enough, but I'm sure the mana curve is just as important. However since Derevi isn't an integral part of the decks' strategy, I've noticed you still play quite a few 1-drop ramp cards. Is that simply because your list curves out at 3 cmc? How much has your mana curve even influenced your ramp package, if at all? I also have a few more questions for this issue:

What's your opinion on Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth? Why not just run more mana dorks that can be 'clamped?
Since you focus on ETB, why include Sakura-Tribe Elder?
Would some 2 cmc options like Nature's Lore and Farseek be worthwhile options?
Is Oracle of Mul Daya too slow in your experience?
If I have a list that partially focuses on tokens, is Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun worth running?
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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Mr_Webman wrote:
3 years ago
I have a lot of questions coming up so just bear with me lol. :grin:
Okie dokie, then. This is going to be a long response.

Which ramp cards to play, how many of them to play, and how to play them, is often a very contentious topic in this format. In fact, there are entire long threads about exactly that on this very board. At the end of the day, most people will tell you that it comes down to three primary factors: 1) level of competitiveness, 2) synergy with a given deck, and 3) personal choice.

When you look at more competitive decks, you'll find a lot more "high risk; high reward" ramp cards, many of which can be very strong in an opening hand but dead draws later (Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond). These are very favourable to a deck that really wants to try to combo off as quickly as possible, but not nearly so much for a midrangy 75% deck. Some will benefit from them nicely, but I've seen so many people jam these into their 75% combo-less (or combo-light) decks, and be disappointed with them because of all the times they draw them on turn 10+. Something like Carpet of Flowers is seen as one of the best ramp cards out there, but if you're in a group where nobody plays blue then obviously it's not going to be very useful, and even if there is a blue player, but he's running a budget 3-colour mana base without shocks and duals and fetches to find those consistently, it's not going to do a lot most of the time.

Synergy matters a whole lot more when you move down from the hyper-competitive. Suddenly, the longer, grindy games becomes the rule rather than the exception, and playing a more synergistic list than your opponents will give you a solid advantage in many games. It becomes a resource management game, and getting the most value our of your resources makes a huge difference. So of course, in a deck like this, where the deck is full of creature tutors, creature flickering, creature clones, and creature recursion, ramp on bodies becomes much more valuable than ramp spells or mana rocks. Wood Elves is a little slower than Nature's Lore, but it does so, so much more for this deck. I can't even count the number of times I've cloned, flickered, or otherwise abused those poor elves, and either gotten far ahead because of it, or managed to very thoroughly come back from being behind.

Assuming that you're thinking about both of the above, and those are helping to shape the general short list of ramp cards you might use, personal choice is going to come in with which of those specific ones you decide to play. Are you fond of running a high basics count and/or don't have duals and shocks? Well then, you might decide you want Farhaven Elf or Springbloom Druid instead of Wood Elves. Do you run Spellseeker and want her to be able to find you ramp in a pinch? Okay, so maybe you do want to find a slot for a Nature's Lore or a Farseek, so you don't have to spend the extra mana to instead have her go get Eladamri's Call and then a ramp creature. Are you okay with the risk that comes with some of those more competitive ramp cards, or built to really take advantage of the hyper-fast ramping? Then go for it. These sorts of choices will all come down to your play style, specific deck composition, budget, average CMC/curve, etc.

It's not always conscious, but these are the things I'm thinking about when I'm building a deck, or looking to make cuts/additions, and this deck is no exception to that. So, with all of the above in mind, let's take a look at your specific questions.

Mr_Webman wrote:
3 years ago
What's your opinion on Utopia Sprawl/Wild Growth? Why not just run more mana dorks that can be 'clamped?
Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth are some of those "high risk; high reward" ramp cards you often see in the more competitive decks. They are very fast and efficient, but they come with a few gotchas. First, they make whatever land they're enchanting into very tempting Strip Mine targets, and second, specifically for Utopia Sprawl, if you don't have a good count of forests and ways to fetch them, then you're going to have a hard time using it effectively fairly often. At a glance, it may seem these cards don't really synergize with the deck, but they are for one reason: Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. Having more permanents that tap for multiple mana means I can more consistently make better use of Derevi's untap triggers, which is very strong. It's strong enough that I'm willing to eat the risk, and plus I do enough land ramping that I'm not usually too worried if one gets blown up. I would not be running these if I were still playing Jenara, Asura of War. It's also worth noting that they're faster than mana dorks. You can play and make use of them right away. There have been many turn 2s where I've played Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl into a 2 drop. Or later turns where I play one of these, then Derevi to untap the enchanted land for something else, allowing me to use my mana very efficiently.

Mr_Webman wrote:
3 years ago
Since you focus on ETB, why include Sakura-Tribe Elder?
Let's examine the synergy offered by Sakura-Tribe Elder. It's a cheap ramp creature to go get with Eladamri's Call, Chord of Calling, Finale of Devastation, and Wargate, where the cost of the target actually matters. I can be recurred with Sun Titan and Reveillark. I can die to a Skullclamp when you need it to. In fact, I've previously had it on the table while activating Gavony Township, and then equipped and sacrificed for cards AND a land. Basically it's a Rampant Growth that can be clamped, Birthing Podded, reanimated, cloned, etc. In short, even without an ETB ability, Steve is just that good.

Mr_Webman wrote:
3 years ago
Would some 2 cmc options like Nature's Lore and Farseek be worthwhile options?
They're fantastic cards, but personally I can't imagine ever including them here over either more ramp creatures, or more things that can tap for multiple mana for Derevi to untap. If I were trying to include more ramp, Yavimaya Dryad would definitely be reincluded first before I'd consider those two here. They would get slightly better if I were playing Spellseeker, as mentioned above, but I just can't get the same value out of them that I can other things.

Mr_Webman wrote:
3 years ago
Is Oracle of Mul Daya too slow in your experience?
I really only like Oracle of Mul Daya in decks with high land counts, and usually a "lands matter" theme, and often also some top deck manipulation. I would absolutely consider Oracle of Mul Daya in my Maelstrom Wanderer list, but not so much here. It's a slow creature that won't actually do anything except give my opponents free info most of the time, and it's something that isn't great for Podding away on top of that.

Mr_Webman wrote:
3 years ago
If I have a list that partially focuses on tokens, is Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun worth running?
I actually really like Growing Rites. I've run it in a few decks in the past. In a deck with this high of a creature count it will most often cantrip, and there are a couple ways here to recur it to keep digging if you want to (Venser, the Sojourner, Venser, Shaper Savant, Sun Titan). It's another thing that taps for multiple mana to get to untap with Derevi, once you manage to flip it, and unlike Gaea's Cradle, it both won't cost you an arm and a leg and also still taps for mana if you've got no creatures. I don't think I have a spot for it here right now, but it's a perfectly fine card.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

I don't know if all of these are going to end up being permanent, but I've been trying them long enough now that I plan to keep trying them for some time. So...

Last edited by ZenN 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Kitsune_18
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Location: New England

Post by Kitsune_18 » 3 years ago

Really good discussion lately. A lot of great points @ZenN.

Last weekend I decided to take the plunge and begin transitioning from Jenara to Derevi. I sorta did it on the fly so the only changes I had time to make were taking out Springbloom Druid, Oracle of Mul Daya, and a basic land for Bloom Tender, Faeburrow Elder, and Lotus Field. I won both the games I played with the deck and it felt pretty damn good even with just those few changes. After giving it some thought I've decided to forgo Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath and put Mulldrifter back in which has prompted me to reconsider including Risen Reef. How has it been for you in testing, ZenN?

I've also been thinking a lot about Woodland Bellower lately. I run it in my Yeva, Nature's Herald deck and I'm never sad to see it. It goes without saying that a mono deck runs more searchable targets than a Bant list might, but we still have a decent toolbox of creatures for the Bellower to tutor into play. Eternal Witness is probably the best overall (making it a slightly bigger and more flexible Greenwarden of Murasa), but Qasali Pridemage and Knight of Autumn (and Scavenging Ooze if you run it) are all great silver bullets, there are a number of options if you are looking to ramp, and Risen Reef could provide a decent card advantage/ramp source. As nice as it would be to try to include Fierce Empath along with it, I'm not too eager to cut anything in the deck for it--there honestly aren't many targets for it, anyway. All said, I might give it a try even without the Empath and I'm definitely eager to hear about your results with Kogla, the Titan Ape.

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

@Kitsune_18

So far, I haven't really seen Risen Reef enough that I feel ready to render a verdict on it. The couple times I have seen it, it has either been really good (like the time I described in an earlier post, with casting it into Mulldrifter and then clones on Mulldrifter), or else it has been at a stage in the game where it has done very little, mostly because either I was about to win or about to lose, and it's not an effect that was going to change the game at that stage.

I've actually thought about Woodland Bellower a few times for this deck, and it's funny you mention it since I was actually just thinking about it again earlier today. I used to run it in my Maelstrom Wanderer, and he was okay, but I think he'd be better here. Even just having Eternal Witness, Knight of Autumn, and Wood Elves is probably enough to make Bellower good enough in this deck, but the fact that I then also have Noble Hierarch, Bloom Tender, Ice-Fang Coatl, Qasali Pridemage, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Faeburrow Elder, and Risen Reef as potential targets means that he should almost always be able to go get me something relevant. I don't plan to try to make a spot for him right now, but I wouldn't at all fault you for giving him a try, and if I end up being unhappy with Kogla, the Titan Ape, I very well may him Bellower a shot.

So far, in the couple times I've seen Kogla, the Titan Ape, I've been quite happy. I look forward to more testing with him. I will be playing some games tomorrow night. Dunno how many games I'll get in with this deck, but we'll see.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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ZenN
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Location: Canada

Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

I played two games with this on Friday night. Won both of them. First one by taking a couple extra turns (Time Warp + Snapcaster Mage), and then just attacking with a bunch of flying power. Second one I won by getting an opening to pull off the Reveillark combo, with just Survival of the Fittest in my hand, after another of my opponents tried to take infinite turns and most of the table's resources got used trying to stop him.

Across the two games, I saw Risen Reef, Cavalier of Dawn, and Kogla, the Titan Ape once each. The Reef got exile by an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon right after I played it, but it did ramp me, and then would've been sweet when I followed up the next turn with Cavalier of Dawn and Phantasmal Image on Cavalier. Kogla, the Titan Ape just got used as a Birthing Pod stepping stone up to an Angel of Serenity, and I was perfectly happy with that, since it not only kept me from losing that game but also contributed to my win later.
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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Kitsune_18
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Location: New England

Post by Kitsune_18 » 3 years ago

How instrumental would you say Mana Crypt has been? Same question for Noble Hierarch. I also run Hierarch and it's powered some fast starts, but haven't gotten my hands on a Crypt. I currently run 36 lands but I'm considering cutting one and another card to include Crypt and an Avacyn's Pilgrim. Thoughts?

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ZenN
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Post by ZenN » 3 years ago

Kitsune_18 wrote:
3 years ago
How instrumental would you say Mana Crypt has been? Same question for Noble Hierarch. I also run Hierarch and it's powered some fast starts, but haven't gotten my hands on a Crypt. I currently run 36 lands but I'm considering cutting one and another card to include Crypt and an Avacyn's Pilgrim. Thoughts?
Mana Crypt is expensive, but very, very strong. It can make for some absolutely ridiculous starts, but even later in the game the sudden extra 2 mana on a turn can make for some surprise plays that are much stronger than what the opponent was ready for. Just the other night I had a game where I curved Trinket Mage, getting Mana Crypt, into Eldrazi Displacer + flicker Mage and go get Sol Ring. With the land drops, went from 3 mana to 9 mana in 2 turns, and had lots of mana to flicker things with that Displacer.

Noble Hierarch is obviously a solid card, but honestly, if there was another card like Utopia Sprawl and Wild Growth, that costs 1 and allows a land to tap for 2, I'd probably swap out for that instead. I'd definitely play those two enchantments before an Avacyn's Pilgrim (in a Derevi version, at least; not so much with Jenara).
Commander
Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town
Maelstrom Wanderer a.k.a. The Kool-Aid Man
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King - OM NOM NOM
Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger + Tokens

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