Golos, ETB Pilgrim - Value Town

[ZenN]

Some new goodies on Modern Horizons 2 with potential for this deck.
Off the top of my head, the ones that have caught my eye for consideration here so far are:
Solitude
Archon of Cruelty
Endurance
Damn

[Kitsune_18]

For the most part, those are the ones that have caught my eye as well.

I'm definitely slotting in Endurance in over Loaming Shaman in my Yeva, Nature's Herald deck, but I think I still slightly prefer Callous Bloodmage here.
If I were to include Damn, it would probably be in a sweeper slot rather than a single target removal slot as the restriction of sorcery speed and the color intensity means that is more often than not how it would be cast in my deck. Feels similar to Winds of Abandon (which I already like quite a bit).
I really want Archon of Cruelty to be good because, well... it's just so freakin' cool! Ahem, anyway, 8 mana seems reasonably costed, but may be a lot for a card that doesn't necessarily put you in a winning position (or just wins on the spot à la Craterhoof Behemoth).
I'm a hard sell on Solitude. It's probably a me problem, but I think I'd need to see it be consistently as good as, if not better than, Skyclave Apparition and/or Cavalier of Dawn before I'm convinced.

Couple other cards that I found interesting and may look to test out are Timeless Witness and Suspend. I was already seriously considering running Archaeomancer for redundancy in rebuying Time Warp/Temporal Manipulation and Witness is just better in pretty much every way (even having 1 toughness instead of 2 is a boon with Skullclamp). As far as Suspend, I think the flexibility of removing a key threat in the late game to give me enough time to cinch a win or protecting one of my threats in the early/middle game and getting it back after 2 turn cycles has potential.

[benjameenbear]

Suspend is a great card for Kalamax and I think it's a solid one-mana removal spell. I also think Timeless Witness will be pretty easy to fit into the deck since E. Witness is so good.

I too love Archon of Cruelty because it's a mini-Cruel Ultimatum (my most favorite MTG card EVER) and I wish that it targeted each opponent instead of just one. Sigh. One day, I'll get my C. Ultimatum on a stick that affects each opponent. One day...

I think Endurance's Flash ability is what puts it over the top. Particularly in cEDH, where Underworld Breach is now one of the strongest combo lines atm, Endurance comes in as a instant-speed creature to blank their combo as they're trying to resolve it. I like it very much personally, but Callous Bloodmage seems fine for a lower-power playgroup.

Solitude is decent. imo. I prefer Ravenous Chupacabra because the art is cool, scary, and weird, but Solitude's Flash ability is what puts it over the top again. The white pips also deter me, but it's fine as a 5 CMC removal ETB creature. I don't think I'll personally include it in my own Golos list, but that's just my preference since I'm Sultai-based instead of Bant-based.

[van9750]

A bit late, but I agree that Strixhaven was a bit of a miss for this kind of deck. I just picked up a copy of Solitude, so I'm excited to test it out. I think it's worth having alongside Cavalier of Dawn, but if I had to cut one I think it would be Cavalier. I think Endurance is sweet, but I'm just not sure how relevant it will be in most games-- I think I'd rather just have Eternal Witness in that spot. I also grabbed Sword of Hearth and Home, which seems like a no-brainer.

Nothing from AFR really jumped out at me, as it seems like the dungeons are much more geared towards standard than eternal formats. I am definitely interested in Teleportation Circle, though, since I'm always starved for blink enablers (still rocking with my girl Derevi)-- I never had enough colorless sources to reliably activate Eldrazi Displacer.

I've been eyeing Yorion, Sky Nomad in place of Azami, Lady of Scrolls (a holdout from when the deck was more tap-oriented), since it seems like people have had a lot of success. I really wish they were more flexible with the 100 card limit haha. My list for reference: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/evnlH8YyQ0uPHsiknbHajQ.

[Mr_Webman]

So what's the future for this deck now that Golos got the ban hammer? Are you going to go back to Derevi or something else entirely?

[ZenN]

So what's the future for this deck now that Golos got the ban hammer? Are you going to go back to Derevi or something else entirely?

Honest answer? I've already been on the fence about quitting this format altogether for a while, and the Golos ban is kinda pushing me further into that direction. As it stands now, I don't have the desire to spend the kinds of money required to keep my decks in the state I want them to be in, and there are certain hassles associated with going full proxy.

That said, if that doesn't happen, I've had a few considerations. The two primary options are Kenrith, the Returned King and Omnath, Locus of Creation. Kenrith would be an easy swap that would require few changes. Omnath was originally being considered to head the deck before I went with Golos. Black and red are both light splashes, but I am using a lot more black than I am red, so losing black hurts more. It's a shame I don't love any of the WUBG options.

[benjameenbear]

For what it's worth, I switched my own Golos over to Kenrith. I swapped Kenrith from the 99 and added in Seedborn Muse in Kenrith's place along with the Training Grounds I had in my binder. But, I also have a playgroup who plays super casually and probably wouldn't mind Golos as a Commander, so I still have him sleeved up in my deck box in case I play with them.

[ZenN]

For what it's worth, I switched my own Golos over to Kenrith. I swapped Kenrith from the 99 and added in Seedborn Muse in Kenrith's place along with the Training Grounds I had in my binder. But, I also have a playgroup who plays super casually and probably wouldn't mind Golos as a Commander, so I still have him sleeved up in my deck box in case I play with them.

Yeah, there were three Golos decks among the people I play with the most, and they probably wouldn't care too much, but personally I have a general dislike for house rules. They split the community and make it less viable to pick up and play anywhere with anyone.

Kenrith is fine. He's always been the stronger commander, I just found Golos to be a lot more fun. I find a lot of the discussion regarding Golos and the ban to be kind of hilarious. It's like if all the Civic owners at a raceway clamored for the banning of mid-tier sports cars, but were perfectly okay with supercars sticking around. I'm curious to see if people start complaining more about Kenrith in the months to come, since I feel like he's probably what a lot of the people who lost Golos are going to be switching to.

[Kitsune_18]

I initially considered just swapping in Kenrith for Golos as well. I even snap bought a copy thinking they would spike as other Golos players scrambled to replace their commander. But after thinking it over a bit, I decided against it for a few reasons. Other than a couple WUBRG mana sources to activate Golos, my version was strictly 4 colors (no red). On top of that, I only ever played 5 or 6 black cards, almost none of which feel irreplaceable. Kenrith is certainly a strong commander, but he somehow feels even more like a "generically powerful WUBRG commander" than Golos. Maybe it's because Golos at least tied into my deck's ETB/blink game plan.

I might still go with Kenrith if end up missing the black cards too much, but right now my plan is to try out Chulane, Teller of Tales at the helm of my ETB value deck. Roon of the Hidden Realm might be the more obvious choice for this style of deck, but I really like the card advantage stapled to Chulane. Other than cutting the black cards and adjusting the mana base, I plan on making very few changes to the core of the deck. I don't plan on running cards like Shrieking Drake or Whitemane Lion in my Chulane list for instance.

[ZenN]

If I were to go back to just Bant, the black and red cards I'd be losing are:

• Deathrite Shaman
• Dockside Extortionist
• Omnath, Locus of Creation
• Aminatou, the Fateshifter
• Vampiric Tutor
• Assassin's Trophy
• Demonic Tutor
• Villainous Wealth
• Mythos of Snapdax

Most of those are relatively easy to replace with other options, but in most cases it would be an overall reduction in power, For example, replacing Vampiric Tutor with either Enlightened Tutor, Worldly Tutor, or Mystical Tutor, or replacing Mythos of Snapdax with Tragic Arrogance, etc. That said, it comes with the slight improvement of easier mana, but that's pretty minor when you've got an ideal mana base with enough fixing.

I agree that Kenrith doesn't feel as thematically appropriate, which is a lot of why I felt Golos was more fun here. I'm also considering Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge. It doesn't have a nice ETB ability like Golos did, but at least it has the ability to offer both ramp and card advantage the way he did, so there's that.

Right now, I think my primary leaning is probably toward Omnath, Locus of Creation. I love everything it does, it also offers both card advantage and ramp, and I could just replace the black cards with some additional things that play nicely with a lands subtheme. And it even has a decent ETB ability to help it be on-theme.

[Arebennian]

Has anyone from this thread been keeping up their decklist since the Golos ban?

What did you switch to and have there been any other definite ETB creatures that have been printed that have worked your way into the list?

At the moment I've decided to move my Esper Aminatou blink deck into green and so am looking at maintaining a BANTbase with the option of a 4th or 5th colour if it is 'necessary'. There are a few options I'm considering but I might make a new thread here if the initial questions don't get any traction.

[ZenN]

Has anyone from this thread been keeping up their decklist since the Golos ban?

What did you switch to and have there been any other definite ETB creatures that have been printed that have worked your way into the list?

At the moment I've decided to move my Esper Aminatou blink deck into green and so am looking at maintaining a BANTbase with the option of a 4th or 5th colour if it is 'necessary'. There are a few options I'm considering but I might make a new thread here if the initial questions don't get any traction.

Hey! I actually just recently played a few games with this deck. It was a short notice thing and I hadn't touched my physical cards since pre-COVID, so I was rushing to throw something together, and I ended up just replacing Golos, Tireless Pilgrim with Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge. And, you know what? It was fine. Esika kinda just did everything Golos did but worse. Both ramp and some card advantage/free spells in the command zone. No ETB trigger, and not nearly as strong, but I still won 3/5 games I played with the deck.

As for new cards, I slotted in Jetmir's Garden and Spara's Headquarters for obvious reasons, but everything else was the same as the last version of the list I had in the OP. There are definitely some new cards that have caught my eye that I've been thinking about, though:

• Titan of Industry is something I've been playing in Standard, and man is it sweet. I feel like it'd be a solid include here.
• Teleportation Circle is mostly just a worse Thassa, Deep-Dwelling, but still solid if you want another of that effect.
• Workshop Warchief is a different Thragtusk that you might prefer over the OG, if you're running it currently.
• Soul of Emancipation is a different Terastodon, better at some things and worse at others.
• Lagrella, the Magpie is awesome. Having an ETB creature version of Grasp of Fate is very appealing to me.
• Void Rend is super strong. Might be worth considering over Assassin's Trophy.
• Topiary Stomper is sweet, as long as you have enough basics to support it and Solemn Simulacrum side by side.
• Vivien on the Hunt is kind of another Birthing Pod, which is appealing to me.

Those are all the ones off the top of my head that I've been thinking about. I'm sure there are more. Anything catch anybody else's eye?

[Arebennian]

So I was looking over the list, andI was wondering why you play Sad Robot over Farhaven Elf?

Also, despite the fact is doesn't have an ETB, the new Deep Gnome Terramancer looks pretty solid as a ramp option.

<EDIT> Oh yeah, I forgot. Astral Dragon has an interesting ETB effect. I guess the issue is being reliant on what your opponent has on their side of the board. Would making 3/3 dragon lands be worth it if you didn't have any reasonable targets of your own?

[van9750]

Disclaimer: still rocking with Derevi for my deck. I've been using Teleportation Circle over Conjurer's Closet and being 1 mana cheaper has been surprisingly relevant. The only thing from SNC that really caught my eye was Lagrella, the Magpie and Gala Greeters (which I haven't been able to properly test. I'm still waiting for a really sweet high-CMC bomb to close out games-- I think Titan and Soul of Emancipation are just barely too weak to replace my current 7-drops (Agent of Treachery and Angel of Serenity), and I'm not sure that I want to add a third (even if I did, hard to make any argument for those over boring but reliable Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite).

Baldur's Gate threw up some interesting things to look at. I think I'm running too many legendary creatures for Bramble Sovereign, but it might be worth a look. Not sold on initiative but Undermountain Adventurer synergizes well with Derevi's combat ability.

Also one last note: in testing, Urza, Lord High Artificer has been absolute gas!

[Arebennian]

So I'm interested in the philosophy behind this and several other blink decks.

I've gone back and looked at the detailed primers for @ISPPathfinder (and others) primers on Jenara, Asura of War and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician on the Salvation forums for thoughts on the archetype and I find it interesting that the following cards don't show up and aren't even discussed (when searched for).

Why isn't Panharmonicon used in the deck, or seemingly by anyone who has a lot of experience running ETB creatures? Is it just because it is a do nothing artifact? It doesn't seem any worse than one of the 'blink a creature in your EOT' (like Thassa or Teleportation Circle or maybe even Soulherder (although I can see its appeal).
Is it simply the play pattern of having your creatures on the battlefield and then playing the flicker effect? Is it that you might not want the 2nd time for the ability to trigger on entry and the flexibility with EOT flicker effects?

The other thing that seems missing is the white mass blink spells. These seem good for, to me, obvious reasons

The other thing that I find odd is that these are predominantly creature decks. Guardian Project and The Great Henge seem like a solid inclusion too, especially with the mass blink spells.

So what am I missing with these cards, other than the fact they do nothing by themselves?

[van9750]

I am currently running Panharmonicon-- I think it falls somewhere in between a win-more card and game-breaking, to be honest. It isn't very good early, since you would have to prioritize it over something like Thassa or Teleportation Circle, but it can definitely save games in the late game when you need to deal with multiple threats at the same time. I've never had a game in which I was specifically unhappy to draw it. I'm also running Guardian Project, thinking about running Henge although the average power of my creatures is quite low so it is a bit more difficult to cast. Not sure why you wouldn't! Same applies to Aura Shards purely based on the number of relevant artifacts and enchantments in EDH.

The mass blink spells are less interesting to me than a permanent blink enabler-- I'd rather run something like Yorion, Sky Nomad. I have found Ephemerate to be awesome, but mostly because it is cheap and triggers an additional time for free (has some neat interactions with Derevi and things like Bloom Tender).

[ZenN]

The way I see it, there are a few problems with Panharmonicon. A little too expensive for the effect, does nothing if you play it after your creatures, does nothing on its own. It's not a bad card, it's not good enough for me to be willing to include. That said, I wouldn't personally include Teleportation Circle either, nor Conjurer's Closet. Thassa, Deep-Dwelling has the benefit of being 4 mana, a creature in the library (which makes tutoring for it, recurring it, or cheating it onto the table significantly easier in this deck), and has additional abilities to make it not just a do-nothing when you drop it on an empty board. I've legit won games off her tapping ability. Soulherder is also a creature, only costs 3, and over a few turns can turn into an actual threat, which is nice in a deck full of low power creatures.

The mass blink spells are fine, but being one-time use and not super easy to recur in this deck makes them less appealing. Yorion, Sky Nomad is a much better join because it repeats, is super easy to setup a recurring loop with, and again has the benefit of being a creature, which really counts for a lot. When it comes to one-and-done blink spells, I'd much rather be playing something cheap (<= 3 mana), which can be used both to further my board state and defensively, like Ghostly Flicker (which can also easily setup some loops) or Ephemerate.

The Great Henge is a sweet card. I love it for other decks, but not here. I never, ever want to pay more than 5 mana for that thing, and this deck is full of creatures that are low power for their mana cost. That makes getting it on the table for a decent cost unreliable at best, and it's never going to be a ramp spell when you need it. That makes the mana producing part of it a win-more kind of thing, and while the card draw aspect is awesome, you could achieve the same thing with something like Mentor of the Meek, which would come down earlier, cost less upfront, and still draw a ton of cards.

Personally, though, I'd much rather run good ETB creature draw, like Mulldrifter, Prime Speaker Zegana, and even Risen Reef, which pairs beautifully with clones and a decent number of other elementals in the deck. That, and hyper efficient drawing like Sylvan Library. I will basically always take 8 until I hit about 20 life or so, and sometimes even beyond that. Life total doesn't matter when I'm just inevitably going to jam a Resolute Archangel and go back to 40. My favourite is when I have Resolute Archangel, Thassa, Deep-Dwelling, and Sylvan Library all on the table together. Draw 3 cards every turn and stay at 40. All of these things draw cards even if you play them by themselves. The Great Henge does nothing by itself.

So what am I missing with these cards, other than the fact they do nothing by themselves?

Even if you ignore everything else I just said, this alone would be reason enough for me to be unwilling to include most cards. If something does nothing by itself, it needs to be really good when it's working, be cost effective, and be easy to get going.

[Arebennian]

The way I see it, there are a few problems with Panharmonicon. <SNIP>

Thanks for the detailed response. A definitive answer rather than just concurring with my simplistic suggestion is much appreciated.

I do assume though that you are reference Sylvan Library and not Survival of the Fittest in the examples you cite?

Regarding deck construction, I was personally looking to stay in Bant but didn't wish to use Derevi as I already have the bird/wizard at the helm of another deck. As such, I was looking at using Livio, Oathsworn Sentinel and Thrasios, Triton Hero to avoid going 5 colour and stay Bant, but I thought that deck would just devolve into finding a card that reduced either of their activated abilities (Training Grounds or Biomancer's Familiar.

So I've settled on Omnath, Locus of Creation. Hardly the most casual of choices but what-ya-gunna-do? Would you mind if I post a list here with my rationale behind card choices for some feedback (with spoiler tag) and or would you prefer me to place it in a separate thread?

[ZenN]

I do assume though that you are reference Sylvan Library and not Survival of the Fittest in the examples you cite?

That's exactly what I meant. That's what I get for typing up a response while half paying attention to a meeting.

So I've settled on Omnath, Locus of Creation. Hardly the most casual of choices but what-ya-gunna-do? Would you mind if I post a list here with my rationale behind card choices for some feedback (with spoiler tag) and or would you prefer me to place it in a separate thread?

Omnath, Locus of Creation is solid. And you get access to Dockside Extortionist, even if you don't include any other red cards. By all means, post your list here! I'd be happy to give it a look and offer some feedback.

[Arebennian]

https://archidekt.com/decks/255358#Blink_/_Flicker

SPOILER

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Ok, so after a lot of thought, here is what I've got and where I am at

OMISSIONS FROM YOUR LIST

NON-CREATURES
Black Cards (Vampiric Tutor; Aminatou; Assasin's Trophy; Demonic Tutor; Villanous Wealth
Mana Crypt: I've got two but they are in other decks. This deck isn't going to be absolutely cutthroat so I figured I would leave crypt out.
Skullclamp & Trinket Mage: With Crypt gone, I removed Trinket mage as I considered its value probably dropped with Sol Ring being one of only two possible targets (very good targets mind you). Without Mage, I then I dropped Skullclamp too. I think this might be a mistake because I'm sorely lacking in card draw but I'm interested to hear what you think. I did consider running Trinket mage and some artifact lands to get extra lands in hand but that didn't seem as effective as just running a card that dropped a land straight into play. Still, perhaps that flexibility would mean it would be worth running?
Birthing Pod: Without a way to search for it, or untap it, I wondered if it were worth it? I know you love the card but I've not got any experience with it and I never really played modern or Standard when it was big.
Survival of the Fittest: I've got two of these in other decks. I run them as a draw engine, toolbox and haste enabler in those decks. You seem to run it more as a combo enabler? Anyway, despite the obvious power of the card, I dropped it. I'm not looking to shuffle cards between decks and Don't know if I want an 1 card 'I win the game' (which, sure, you need a lot of mana to do but it makes combos much easier to assemble)
Mirari's Wake: I did consider this as a mana doubler for a while. With Omnath potentially being able to pay for a lot of the cost it seemed like quite a good option as I'd be able to take advantage of the 2x mana lands sooner (drop it with Omnath mana, then tap all my lands for 2x). Without a way to search for it though, and having Omnath give the potential for mana, I dropped it.
Venser, the Sojourner: While he works well with Gilded Drake, I've gotta make some cuts somewhere. More vulnerable than some of my other permanents and 5CMC isn't pleasing for the effect, even if it does have upside.
Counterspell: Going for single blue pips in the counters I'm running. My mana base isn't going to be anywhere near as robust as yours so this is probably one of the costs I'm going to have to pay.
Mana Drain: I've haven't got a spare one kicking around and I don't really like shuffling cards between decks. Perhaps with the recent 2x Masters reprint I should pick another one up? Still not sure about the double blue.
Beast Within: Shame it is CMC 2 as I have generally tried to stay away from anything that isn't searchable with Spellseeker.
Eldritch Evolution: This seems great in Derevi and Golos, but I'm not sure about Omnath. Plus, can't tutor it with Spellseeker. Considering Neoform in this slot as a result instead?
Mythos of Snapdax: Can't tutor for it. It's also black so I can't run it anyway. I could run Tragic Arrogance instead but I think that the fact Omnath is a 4 damage wipe on the 3rd landfall trigger might mean I can get away with it? Perhaps I should run Bane of Progress instead as I don't really have a wipe that will hit a lot of permanents. Devastating Mastery might be worth a look.
Swords to Plowshares: Swapped for Path to Exile so I can trigger Landfall by pathing my own creature if I want to.

CREATURES
Black Cards: Deathrite Shaman
Snapcaster Mage: With less impressive instants and sorceries than you are running I don't know if this makes the cut. Maybe I'm being foolish.
Mirror Entity: You seem to run this as a combo card more than anything? You don't really use it for the overrun effect when you could be running some big green nasty do you? I guess it is guard/recruitable so I'd be persuadable.
Trinket Mage: See Skullcamp
Solemn Simulacrum: Competes with commander at 4CMC. Am running Farhaven Elf instead. Could see myself running the new dinosaur if I end up running The Great Henge
Resolute Archangel: I cut it despite you love for the card as I am hoping that Omnath's life gain might be enough to offset the life loss on the manabase. We will see. Could definitely see its inclusion.


INCLUDES
An Offer You Can't Refuse: Easier to cast. Perhaps should be Swan Song or maybe Stubborn Denial
Arcane Denial: Easier to cast. See above reason on Mana Drain
Crop Rotation: I see this as an easy way to get multiple triggers off turn on Omnath and potentially hit the 4damage effect.
Nature's Lore: Trigger Omnath and help fix. Not ideal as it isn't flickable but helps get Omnath out turn three and isn't dead late in the game.
Three Visits: See above.
Imperial Recruiter: Essentially a second copy of Recruiter of the Guard
Woodland Bellower: Let's me find some key green creatures, particularly Ramunamp Excavator
Dryad of the Ilysian Grove: This seems like an upgrade over Chromatic Lantern in this deck
Ashaya, Soul of the Wild: This makes every creature into a landfall trigger, making Omnath much easier to trigger. At worst, it makes each creature into a bad Cryptolith Rite
Sakura-Tribe Scout: Seemed like the cheapest method of getting a second landfall trigger to occur when I wanted it to. I don't have a lot of 1 drops so this seemed like the best option.


Notable Omissions:
Extra Turn Effects: Loops are possible but is that the win condition I want?
Displacer Kitten: Not enough non-creatures. Maybe 15-16 non-creatures still makes this worth running, even if they aren't instants.
Burgeoning: I think I want the land drops to be occurring on my turn when I can use the mana from Omnath's second trigger most effectively.
Landfall payoffs: This is a blink deck, not a landfall deck. Life from the Loam specifically I think is perhaps the most obvious. Not 100% on this. I've got an Intuition that I could run to get a draw engine with the cycle lands but I'm not sure if I really want to run it here. Without it, I'm not sure if the loss of the draw is worth it as I'm not sure I'll have multiple lands in my graveyard.
Emiel the Blessed: The reason she would be in would be to trigger one of the land ETB creatures or Omnath at instant speed. The fact that costs is almost the same as Omnath's second landfall trigger (netting you a mana and another land in play) makes me question if it would be worth it?.


So the main issues I see:
*WIN CONDITIONS: I mean with a bunch of left over guys from all the ETB effects, Craterhoof seems like the most obvious way, but is a bit ho-hum.
*CARD DRAW: Seems like an issue. Tutors will help me hit targets and creatures that allow me to draw, but don't help me draw into my deck and hit land drops: Omnath almost requesting a sub-theme or complete devotion to landfall (which I'm trying to avoid) I have considered running a lot of the CMC2 ETB creatures and mass blink effects to act as a draw engine.
*BLINK EFFECTS: With the removal of the 2 planeswalkers, there are far fewer effects that actually blink in the deck than your Golos version. Also, so many of the blink effects are at EOT, which means that it's basically impossible to get Omnath to re-trigger for a second round of landfall effects. But perhaps that is ok and just a trap to begin with? The bigger irritation is the lack of synergy with the land ramping creatures like Wood Elves and the EOT flicker. It won't really be possible to rely on them to trigger Omnath's 2nd trigger as the deck won't be able to use the mana in the end step. Perhaps I am putting too much stock on Omnath and devoting too many slots trying to maximise him when I needn't? Ideally, the happy medium would be to have cards that make sure I have a fetch in my hand in the first 2-3 turns and also can get a card which will allow me to get the fetch back onto the battlefield (either through a Crucible of Worlds effect or a Sun Titan effect.

Looking forward to anyones feedback who has experience playing the archetype.