Kykar, Wind’s Fury

User avatar
OCPunisher
Posts: 225
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by OCPunisher » 4 years ago

I love the inclusion of Ephara, God of the Polis in this list over something like Mentor of the Meek. I'll have to give that one a shot in my own build.

What are your thoughts on Serra the Benevolent over something like Elspeth, Sun's Champion?
Last edited by OCPunisher 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
A deck for every color: Rakdos | Lord | Heliod | Yeva | Tetsuko | Scarab | Kykar | Kozz | Athreos | Haldan/Pako

Tags:

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

@OCPunisher

I included Ephara because @pokken had suggested it for Alela. I ended up dismantling Alela due to the similarities with this deck but that meant that this deck wanted her too. She is a nice way to get easy card draw, even though I am not really hurting for card draw. And, if the stars align, I can attack with her. She can't draw nearly as many cards as Mentor, but not having to spend mana for her ability is a huge plus. Plus, she is still a "noncreature" 99.99% of the time so she fits in a little better with the "creature-less" build I want.

I have Serra because I really like her Emblem. I could just run Worship but that is super easy to remove compared to an Emblem. You do have to wait a turn with Serra to get the Emblem but, often enough, we should have blockers to protect her for that turn.

I don't often use her her -3 but it is an option. A 4 mana Serra Angel isn't the worst, but isn't exactly what we want to do. The +1 isn't bad as it is a way to kind of have an alpha strike but I really value her for her Emblem.

I was close to cutting her during this last round of changes simply because using her only for her Emblem isn't ideal, but she did win me a game that way so I felt she deserved to stay in for a little longer :)

Elspeth on the other hand is tricky. I don't care about her +1 since I already have a ton of tokens and I am not really doing a lot with them anyway. That is, if I was running Cathars' Crusade or more things like Purphoros (Impact Tremors or Goblin Bombardment), her stock may go up.

Also, I have been very disappointed with her -3 when I have used her in other decks as well as when playing against her because it often doesn't hit enough. You would think that in EDH, where big creatures run rampant, that she would be pretty good, but there are still a lot of things she doesn't hit. While that works well for us, it means she can be hit or miss for an actual wrath.

Her Emblem is, honestly, awesome. She does well to allow us to be a little more aggressive so, depending on your build, she can do a lot of work. However, my build isn't really aggressive so she doesn't fit as well. But, I can see her being useful in other lists.

I think if you are being more aggressive, and you are fine with the 6 CMC, Elspeth might be the way to go. If you are a little more defensively oriented, or just want a way to "steal" games, Serra might be the way to go. I think they each do something different so a straight comparison isn't the best. That is, you might want both.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

The thing with Elspeth is that you can make more and better tokens with Kykar for a lot less mana, and a six mana conditional wrath is iffy. Granted the wipe is more likely than not to work in the Kykar player's favor. I think there are many better uses for the card slot is all, and Kykar superfriends would want to look elsewhere imo. And I say that as an Elspeth SC fan.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
OCPunisher
Posts: 225
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by OCPunisher » 4 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
The thing with Elspeth is that you can make more and better tokens with Kykar for a lot less mana, and a six mana conditional wrath is iffy. Granted the wipe is more likely than not to work in the Kykar player's favor. I think there are many better uses for the card slot is all, and Kykar superfriends would want to look elsewhere imo. And I say that as an Elspeth SC fan.
That is a fantastic breakdown. While we're on the subject of planeswalkers, have any of these ever gotten onto your radar?
- Dack Fayden
- Narset Transcendent
- Nahiri, the Harbinger
A deck for every color: Rakdos | Lord | Heliod | Yeva | Tetsuko | Scarab | Kykar | Kozz | Athreos | Haldan/Pako

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Dack Fayden seems serviceable for looting and stealing artifacts. I don't know he is absolutely needed, but he actually seems like a good way to turn excess lands in hand to something different. Stealing an early Sol Ring is also fun. His emblem is basically worthless but that doesn't mean he is bad as a whole. I might have to think about him more.

I had Narset and I didn't like her. She should be good in decks like this since she allows for two casts of the same spell but I guess I never found her necessary. I am not sure if that is exactly the way to put it, but I don't think I ever got to a point where I felt she really did anything to turn things around. Sure, she makes some things better, and is essentially card draw (which the deck doesn't need much more of), but I didn't really feel like she did enough on her own.

Nahiri might be more a meta call. Looting is fine (see Dack Fayden) but her second ability is what makes or breaks her (her last ability is not very good). I like her for being able to deal with big scary threats that might be indestructible. She is super good against gods, but terrible against something like Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Being 4 mana means she is pretty far above the curve (my current build is just under 2.5 CMC on average). Being an answer and being able to dig for threats or answers might make her pretty good though.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

OCPunisher wrote:
4 years ago
MeowZeDung wrote:
4 years ago
The thing with Elspeth is that you can make more and better tokens with Kykar for a lot less mana, and a six mana conditional wrath is iffy. Granted the wipe is more likely than not to work in the Kykar player's favor. I think there are many better uses for the card slot is all, and Kykar superfriends would want to look elsewhere imo. And I say that as an Elspeth SC fan.
That is a fantastic breakdown. While we're on the subject of planeswalkers, have any of these ever gotten onto your radar?
- Dack Fayden
- Narset Transcendent
- Nahiri, the Harbinger
I think this is a deep topic TBH, and it depends a lot on what type of Kykar deck one is looking to build.

The short answer is that Dack and Nahiri are generically good and wouldn't be "bad" in any deck really. Narset is narrower, but certainly could pull off some cool stuff in a spellslinger deck. The more nuanced answer is that in Kykar I think more value can be gained without walkers, unless you're going all-in on superfriends.

@darrenhabib has a great post in my Kykar thread here about superfriends in Kykar that's worth a read. I could definitely see a sweet superfriends/proliferate Kykar list being a thing, especially because the spirit tokens keep the walkers relatively safe, and the casting the walkers themselves makes spirits. Add on top of that the fact that lots of PWs have +X abilities that give further protection, and you've got the makings of some strong planeswalking.

However, if we're talking about just 1-4 PWs in a Kykar deck, I personally think they would need to be highly impactful ASAP. You know that Saheeli, Sublime Artificer is my pick, being a spellslinger build. Serra making an emblem the turn after she comes down is definitely sweet, and as long as Wizard is having success with it I say godspeed. I would personally rather rip off 2-3 cantrips and a removal spell for that same 4-mana. I know Wizard also runs Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, which is a great card without a doubt, but I prefer explosive lines of play with Kykar rather than attrition style 1 activation/turn gameplay. Mileage and playstyles will vary of course, and Wizard's stated objective is a more controlling list, so maybe running a handful of PWs is correct. It's also worth noting that Wizard has a well defined meta with a playgroup if I'm not mistaken, so that makes it easier to know how well a PW will fare once it hits the table.

For my spellslinger style with Kykar, really the only ones I've personally come close to running aside from Saheeli, SA are Narset Transcendent and Narset, Parter of Veils. I wouldn't make any sweeping generalizations though. If I've had one consistent theme with my Kykar discussions on this forum, it's that Kykar can be built around a zillion ways, and that means any number of walkers could support different themes and strategies.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

After reviewing some of the more recent comments, I have decided to make the following changes:
03/13/20
Approximate Total Cost:

White Sun's and Entreat are straight swaps. With the amount of card draw I have, along with Top, I am willing to give this a try. I am starting to think White Sun's isn't as good as I want it to be anyway, based on MeowZeDung's comments. I am not sure if Entreat is right, but the payoff is much higher so I will give it a try.

Orim's Thunder is being cut more to make room than anything else, but I don't think I really need it. It works really well off Sunforger, but I am willing to try the deck without and let the rest of my removal handle problematic Artifacts and Enchantments.

Terrain Generator is being cut since I don't think I have quite enough basics to make it worthwhile. 11 seems kind of low for it and I generally prefer Generator in 1 and 2 color decks due to the higher number of basics.

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

With the new sets out, I wanted to go over some of the cards I am looking at for potential includes. This won't be as in depth as my Primer evaluations in terms of all possible cards. This is just for ones that have a higher chance of actually getting into the deck (with maybe a one or two thrown in just to talk about why not):

Call the Coppercoats - As some of the latest discussion has shown, I want a way to make a bunch of tokens, preferably at Instant timing. Decree of Justice was discussed, White Sun's was what I had, and Entreat is what I went with. Secure the Wastes was also discussed. Call might be a decent solution. It doesn't give me great tokens (so has the same problem I mentioned with Secure) but I feel it actually ends up being better for less cost. For Secure, my main issue was that I really wanted to be spending 10+ mana on it and that only gave me 9 tokens. I am not sure where this lands but for the base of 3 mana I feel the use is much higher and can be used in a number of different ways. Even as a way to give me a lot of chump blockers against a horde of creatures.

Now, I don't harbor any illusions that a massive army of green creatures is really going to be stopped by this card. But, the mana investment is less, the potential output is probably greater, so I think I am going to put this in over Entreat for now. I think Entreat might still make it back eventually but it had its own issues described earlier. And, I only have so many slots for things like this.

Flawless Maneuver - This one needs basically no explanation. It is a free spell to give Kykar (and everything else) indestructible. I already have a bunch of other stuff for indestructible as it is an effect I like for this deck, so I might just pull out something like Ajani's Presence since the only thing I ever expect to target with Presence is Kykar anyway. And this is pretty much strictly better for that.

Fierce Guardianship - This is pretty much the same. It is a free counterspell and most blue decks will likely want it. So, it goes in here.

Akim, the Soaring Wind - I included this here because I think this card would be great for this deck except for two things: 1) It is a creature but mainly 2) the cost for it is just far too high. Kykar is already pushing the limit at 4 mana so a 5 mana card to do something worse isn't good. The activated ability is main reason to look at it and it is great but 6 mana isn't where I want to be to give a bunch of 1/1's double strike.

Narset of the Ancient Way - Narset is one I excited to try. She is likely going to end up being somewhat middling but her abilities are all relevant though I can see the ramp not being quite as useful for me since I am pretty reactive. But, her ultimate isn't too shabby. It isn't going to take over games, but she also ultimates in 3 turns and she should be pretty easy to protect. I am thinking I will cut Teferi for her for now as I don't often find myself in need of the card draw Teferi provides and Narset can offer a (poor) imitation of him as necessary.

Whirlwind of Thought - Now, for another card that I am really excited to try. This gives me so much value as it turns every spell I cast into a cantrip. There is so much this can do for me when I am digging with other spells or just getting incidental value off of anything I cast. Again, 4 mana is reaching the top of the curve but I think that is acceptable for this effect in this deck,

Raugrin Triome - And, finally, Tricycle lands! The Jeskai one obviously makes sense here so I will be finding a spot for it somewhere.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 4 years ago

Our reviews are going to end up being similar :)

I'm interested to hear how Call the Coppercoats plays out for you. Since my build centers around some additional token creators beyond Kykar that make any ol' instant create tokens, I'm not really in the market for "Instant - Create X X/X tokens".card, but CtC is good enough that I did contemplate it.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Alright, I am finally getting around to actually making changes for this deck. I mentioned the cards above that I want to include, and the reasons for them, but here is the list:
Now, this is a lot of cards to find room for at once. However, based on previous discussions, I have a lot more cuts than this to make anyway so I don't expect these to be too difficult.

Island - I need to cut a land for the Triome and while the Triome is slower, it is also much better at fixing. Most likely, Blighted Cataract is the right cut here, but I am going to try for an Island and hope it doesn't mess things up too badly.

Entreat the Angels - I am still going back and forth with the "right" token producer so I am just going to swap Entreat for Coppercoats and see what it does. It is possible I might want more later, but I think this is worthwhile for now.

Teferi, Hero of Dominaria - Swapping Teferi for Narset makes some sense here. Narset may or may not be a good card, but she is lower on the curve and allows for some ramp. She isn't great on the card draw, though she has it if needed.

Thirst for Knowledge & Thirst for Meaning - I bunched these two up because they are effectively the same card. I think the long term effects of Whirlwind of Thought is going to be much better than these two. And it also frees up another slot for something else.

Make a Stand - I feel that I have enough Indestructible effects as it is, so just straight swapping one for Flawless Maneuver seems like the right call. This, being the most expensive, is the one to go. Maybe Ajani's Presence is right instead but I prefer that for a cheap way to protect Kykar.


User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

With the full spoiler of Core 2021 and Jumpstart, I have decided to finally post some of my thoughts on new cards. I will separate then by color but Jumpstart and Core 2021 cards will be lumped together.

Not a whole lot of new options for Kykar that I can see. There was a creature or two that might make it in other builds but because I am trying to keep this creatureless, I didn't even bother commenting on them.

Here is what I can see as being potentials:

White Cards

Feat of Resistance - This seems like a decent card for this deck. It offers Protection plus adds a counter to buff Kykar. Unfortunately, slots are tight and I already cut all but one Protection spell (everything else grants indestructible) so it likely won't make it into the deck.

Blue Cards

Discontinuity - I am still not sure where I land on this card over all, but in most cases I am leaning towards it not being good enough. Sure, it is a slightly better Time Stop so if that card is being run, I would easily swap it with this. But if Time Stop isn't in the deck, I don't think being better only on my turn is worth adding it.

Teferi, Master of Time - Teferi looks like a decent card to add in some removal and looting. I think, at best, he fits in where Narset of the Ancient Way fits now. That is, I think I really only want one of them. If Narset doesn't pan out, I will try Teferi but I think the deck has enough other cards that I don't really want both.

Teferi's Ageless Insight - This deck has quite a few card draw effects and this might even be a good reason to revisit Jeskai Ascendancy. I know @MeowZeDung runs Ascendancy and has had decent experiences with it, so I might re-think it because of this card. Arguably, this card might be better than Teferi and Narset as well. I might give it some more thought anyway and see what makes sense for this build but I am leaning on trying it out. Just not sure what to cut yet.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I was going to reply with my thoughts on Teferi's Ageless Insight here, but I got long winded so I just posted them in my thread.

I haven't looked at all the spoilers yet, but I think you're correct with regard to Teferi, Master of Time and Discontinuity. I'm not even sure if I'd run Teferi in Narset of the Ancient Way's spot if she doesn't pan out TBH. Although, he does combo quite nicely with Teferi's Ageless Insight. . . I like the flavor and how he is suited for multiplayer, but I don't foresee him ever being allowed to survive until his ultimate.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

You might be right on Teferi. I still think our tokens can help him survive, along with his own -3 ability. And, to be fair, I wouldn't actually play him to get to his ultimate. I am more interested in the incremental advantage.

Though, as you stated in your thread, Insight is probably better than either one considering the main use (for me anyway) is card draw for both of them, Insight makes all of our card draw just that much better. It can be a dead card if we have no card draw effects though which means it doesn't help us out of a stall. Teferi and Narset can. That could be important.

I did end up building this list online. The only difference is I didn't include Sunbaked Canyon since it is expensive and I accidentally left in Thirst for Meaning instead of Fact or Fiction. I don't think either one is right for the deck anymore so the swap is sort of irrelevant.

I played against Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Morophon, the Boundless, and Kokusho, the Evening Star.

I slow rolled Kykar and just got down some rocks early. I cast Kykar on turn 5. I was digging a little trying to get some protection for him but didn't get it. I figured I should just go for it though and it sort of worked out.

Early on I tried to cast Sunforger. Mizzix, who had missed land drops and had no Blue mana, countered it with Dissolve thanks to the Brain in a Jar they had. But, I ended up casting Vandalblast a turn or two later and they never did get more mana or access to blue mana and ended up scooping.

The main reason for the Vandalblast though was to get rid of the Fist of Suns Morophon had and the Helm of the Host Kokusho had. Both were exceptionally devastating if left unchecked (Helm more than anything else). I also cleared out some mana rocks from Kokusho to sort of set them back.

I was really beating down on Kokusho with Kykar and eventually got them to 18 commander damage by clearing away Kokusho as much as possible. They got me down to 14 life though so they were doing their best to end the game. On a side note, MTGO has the new Commander rule in place for dying and exiled commanders which works very well with Kokusho. I don't think it was overpowered or anything as things like Helm are still going to be bigger issues but it did get them a lot more use out of Kokusho.

They ended up scooping after I made sure they didn't have a board to block Kykar so then it was just me and Morophon. I ended up removing Morophon and then countering a Winds of Abandon they used to try to clear my board which was basically game over since I could just attack with everything next turn.

One turn that was really good was casting Whirlwind of Thought into Narset of the Ancient Way. I ticked Narset down to discard Hour of Reckoning to deal 7 damage to Morophon. But Whirlwind drew me a log of cards over the course of the game from there. It was pretty good in making sure my hand remained full for the rest of the game. Ephara actually did a lot for that too and I found that Kykar, Narset, and Whirlwind all allowed Ephara to be a creature so I could end the game a little quicker that way.

But, I am not sure if Narset was needed. Sure, it got rid of Morophon but I wasn't exactly in danger of losing to him. Even after this one outing, I think she is just superfluous. I think Teferi's Ageless Insight is easily a better card in most situations.

Hour of Reckoning was also awful :( I pretty much never needed it and the one time I wanted to use it, Kokusho had a few Zombie tokens so it wouldn't do a lot. I ended up casting Supreme Verdict instead and I still had Cleansing Nova in hand. I think Hour needs to be something else.

And, as mentioned, Fact or Fiction or either Thirst card isn't really needed either. Though, the Thirsts work better with Insight. I think I want to cut Thirst/FoF, Narset, and Hour of Reckoning. Insight will go in and I think I am going to move back to Jeskai Ascendancy as well due to the interaction with Insight and using it to end games a little quicker. I will probably keep Narset for now as I try to figure out another card I might want but she will remain on the chopping block.

Oh, and since it came up in @MeowZeDung's thread: Keep Watch made an appearance towards the end of the game. I swung in with 6 creatures and drew 7 cards (thanks to Whirlwind). This ended up being sort of important at the time since it drew me into the Counterflux used to counter the Winds of Abandon above. It came a little late so I can't say for sure it was the turning point in the game or anything since I am pretty sure I was in a really good spot at the time even if Winds did resolve. But it did give me a lot more options depending on what my opponent managed to do.

Click here to view game 1 in main post

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Thanks for the game report! I love reading them.

I'm glad you got to enjoy a strong Whirlwind of Thought game. I'm going to reserve my conclusions about Narset until I've had her in play several times, but I understand where you're coming from. Really glad to hear about Keep Watch doing work since I'm almost certainly going to slot it in my list.

My only point of disagreement is on Hour of Reckoning. My experiences with that card in Kykar have almost always been positive. I skipped around a bit in your video and watched some turns you had it in hand. IIRC you sacced 3 spirits to overload Vandalblast (I can't remember if you attacked with them first). I think you would have been better off tapping a land for , blasting just the Fist of Suns, then convoking out Hour with Kykar and 4 spirits. You could have even sacced a couple of the spirits in response to bank mana for recasting Kykar if you really wanted to get big bird right back out. Yeah, a couple of 2/2 zombies would have stuck around. No biggie. You still would have had a 4 or 5 for 1. Maybe I missed something though; I was skipping around throughout the vid.

Makes me want to get my list on MTGO. . .
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
My only point of disagreement is on Hour of Reckoning. My experiences with that card in Kykar have almost always been positive. I skipped around a bit in your video and watched some turns you had it in hand. IIRC you sacced 3 spirits to overload Vandalblast (I can't remember if you attacked with them first). I think you would have been better off tapping a land for , blasting just the Fist of Suns, then convoking out Hour with Kykar and 4 spirits. You could have even sacced a couple of the spirits in response to bank mana for recasting Kykar if you really wanted to get big bird right back out. Yeah, a couple of 2/2 zombies would have stuck around. No biggie. You still would have had a 4 or 5 for 1. Maybe I missed something though; I was skipping around throughout the vid.
Maybe I will keep it in. This might not be the best situation to confirm how good or bad it is since the boards were pretty empty for the most part.

I did attack with the 2 spirits and sacrificed them to pay for Vandalblast. My concern was threefold: Fist of Suns letting Morophon cast things for free. Helm of the Host copying Kokusho, and Brain in a Jar letting Mizzix do....well anything.

Convoking with Hour wouldn't have gotten rid of all the other artifacts I wanted to get rid of. Looking at the board state, I could have not attacked with the 2 spirits (I still wanted to attack with the Kykar) and used for Convoking. In doing so, I could have tapped them two, tapped for 5 mana with my lands/artifacts, gotten another token, and had 4 lands untapped with 3 tokens available. If I still wanted to Vandalblast I could have floated 3 mana from the tokens and tapped 2 lands leaving me with 2 lands and no board.

Which meant that Kokusho would have been able to attack for 6 this turn instead of 10 so I save a couple points of damage. But I think I would have needed to cast the Supreme Verdict the next turn anyway as 3 tokens into 4 still requires attention since Kykar was gone.

I think my play of Vandalblast everything to slow everyone down and then Supreme Verdict next turn while still giving me enough mana to recast Kykar was the safer play. It also still left me Hour in hand if I ever needed it. Which I didn't but having the option is good.

I suppose sacrificing tokens for Vandalblast was maybe a little overly cautious on my lands. I could have kept one around. But I was saving my lands for Ionize and to crack the Fiery Islet. And, I knew I was going to cast Cleansing Nova anyway (I got lucky to hit the Verdict). To be fair, I should have thought ahead a little more because Nova wouldn't have given me enough mana for Kykar (though I would have had to Ionize the Counterspell Morophon had anyway, so it worked out). And keeping the tokens still provided me the mana I needed for all that anyway (except the 1 Blue I would have needed, but I would have had another land untapped anyway).

So, I think the sacrificing of the tokens could have been better but the line was still the best to go with I think.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
I did attack with the 2 spirits and sacrificed them to pay for Vandalblast. My concern was threefold: Fist of Suns letting Morophon cast things for free. Helm of the Host copying Kokusho, and Brain in a Jar letting Mizzix do....well anything.
Ah. I didn't see the Helm and I had forgotten about the Brain. That changes things. Otherwise I was thinking that removing Morophon was almost as good as blowing up the Fist. Maybe blasting Helm and convoking Hour would have been a decent play there with Melek stuck on mana? Hmmm... it's a close call. But yeah, either way it was a relatively empty board for Hour.

In other news I had a blazing fast game just a bit ago, and with no mana rocks either. T3->Idyllic Tutor for Anointed Procession, T4 Kykar → T5 Anointed Procession, Burning Inquiry, Underworld Breach, started looping and discarded Impact Tremors on the 3rd Inquiry. Cast Faithless Looting for GY fodder, and escaped tremors before mowing down the table. An early Anointed Procession can be an absolute house, especially if you're as fortunate as I was to have a solid density of mostly or all red spells available early on.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I got in another game today. It was against Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, and Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper & Thrasios, Triton Hero partners.

I started with a decent hand and got Kykar down turn 3. I didn't have any protection for him but I also didn't really have anything else going on yet since I drew a couple lands in my first few draws. Luckily, he stuck around for a while.

Bruna ended up dropping Grand Abolisher and Angel of Jubilation which really messed up my plans. Mostly the Angel since I could now no longer sac Spirits for mana. And, of course, Thrasios was getting way out of control. They had 10 lands on turn 5 and just kept going from there.

I tried to slam a Whirlwind of Thought but Bruna was able to counter it thanks to Mystic Remora and Mystical Tutor. Sidisi had scooped by this point since they missed 2 or 3 lands drops and were missing green mana entirely.

Having my Whirlwind get countered set me back a little. I still didn't have a lot to do, but it would have been nice to have. Though, I doubt I was going to do anything to Thrasios at this point. They were just way too fast out of the gate.

We did gang up on them but there was too much there. I think I had 2 attacks where I should have attacked them with Kykar and I didn't. Once I swung at Bruna and another I didn't swing at all. Had I done that, I think I could have gotten them to 18 commander damage at one point. I am not sure I could have pushed through the last 3 though anyway.

I got Saheeli down which ended up dying a couple turns later. I only got 1 token off her. The Grand Abolisher stopped me from casting Keep Watch on Bruna's turn. I would have only drawn 2 cards, but I really needed it.

But, really, we were sort of dead in the water for a long time. Bruna ran out of cards and I couldn't get to a point where I anything good to cast. Towards the end of the game, after they got 8 tokens off Boundless Realms with a Field of the Dead on the field, I had the opportunity to cast Cleansing Nova. The problem was that they had Alchemist's Refuge and a full hand and I was at 6 life so I was basically guaranteed to be dead if I did that. My only real chance was to work with Bruna. And, of course, they had Wilderness Reclamation which had untapped all their lands.

I had a Mirrorweave in hand I had gotten off Mystical Tutor (I had 17 of my cards exiled by Sidisi when they cast Nightmare Incursion so I didn't really have a lot left. I figured Mirrorweave was my best bet for allowing Bruna to get through since they had a number of unblockable stuff they had shown.

And, in fact, at the end Thrasios cast Consuming Aberration which I then made Bruna's one creature (along with mine) into. That meant they had about 10 Aberrations but they had just gotten done with casting a bunch of spells. Bruna than cast Cyclonic Rift which wouldn't have killed Thrasios but it would have gotten then down a lot. Thrasios still had Mana Drain in hand though which then meant we had 13 triggers from Aberration. This milled me (it wouldn't have actually killed me since I had Mistveil Plains), but then the game just restarted on its own in the client. I just conceded since I don't think I was going to be able to do enough on my own anyway and any creature I cast would kill Bruna thanks to Purphoros. So, Thrasios got the win.

Thrasios is just ridiculous :( This is the first game against anyone where I really hoped someone would cast Armageddon. I don't think there was any other way to stop them. It would have been nice to get rid of the Refuge too so I might need to look at that more and see if I need to include Generous Gift and maybe Field of Ruin just for things like that. I prefer Gift since it is a spell. I am not sure what other spells can blow up a single land for any cheaper than Stone Rain. At least, not in these colors.

Overall, I still think the deck performed well. I had a couple good plays where I got to sac a bunch of tokens for an X spell and draw a bunch of cards. It just couldn't keep up with the huge advantage Thrasios produced.

Click here to view game 2 in main post

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Ugh. Thrasios. That angel is Kykar kryptonite as well.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Thrasios is just ridiculous
My friend made UG control / land ramp with thrasios that just won with the tiniest scepter package. He's basically the most ridiculously overpowered piece of nonsense. 2 mana with a mana sink that ramps is dumb.

Then to add insult to injury he can partner with one of the second most powerful individual commanders in the format (Tymna).

Every single time I see Thrasios online I know I have to focus that person out of the game.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
My friend made UG control / land ramp with thrasios that just won with the tiniest scepter package. He's basically the most ridiculously overpowered piece of nonsense. 2 mana with a mana sink that ramps is dumb.
A buddy of mine put together Thrasios/Vial Smasher, and the deck is eminently fair. I literally feel as though anything his deck throws at me is manageable. . . except stupid Thrasios. I still don't mind him playing it against me at all and I would never ask him to stop, I just KNOW that I have to focus fire like you said. The deck controls me before even casting a spell.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Here is what I have decided to go with for the new cards mentioned above:
06/30/20
Approximate Total Cost:

I decided not to go with Teferi for now since he is pretty expensive online and after further thought I am not sure what I want to do with him anyway. After MeowZeDung's comments about him and Narset, I am beginning to think Jeskai Ascendancy is going to be far better. Especially with Teferi's Ageless Insight. So, I am going to try those out first.

Fact or Fiction is getting the cut since I don't think it is as relevant anymore when adding in two "draw" effects anyway. Online this is actually Thirst for Meaning which I had mentioned I didn't want either.

Hour is a tough one. Meow's experience has been different than my own but I couldn't come up with a good cut beyond maybe just getting rid of Narset or Serra and I think I would rather keep them for a little longer anyway. I will definitely be watching to see if there is any situation where Hour would have been good though. I haven't played a lot of games with the card in the deck, but I only have so many slots and it hasn't been too impressive so far.

User avatar
pokken
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 2
Pronoun: he / him

Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I honestly do not know that I would play anything that kills Kykar in a Kykar deck. Rift, winds of abandon, aetherize, comeuppance, so many good options that continue steamrolling your tokens army.

Hour of Revelation is about as far as I'd go I think, and only because it's so efficient and gets the artifact/enchantment/walkers.

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
I am beginning to think Jeskai Ascendancy is going to be far better
Oh just you wait and see fella :love:
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I honestly do not know that I would play anything that kills Kykar in a Kykar deck.
Keep in mind we run Flawless Maneuver, Boros Charm, etc., and the cast trigger off of Hour of Reckoning nets you a spirit that you can sac along with any other summoning sick spirits to help pay for the Kykar recast if you need it. The real beating comes because Hour has convoke and Kykar makes white spirits, so it's often free or very cheap. Combine it's convoke cost with Jeskai Ascendancy and *chef's kiss*. I've won by nuking all the non-tokens to clear the way for a handful of enormous Monastery Mentor tokens, so at that point I'm not concerned with Kykar being in the command zone. Although, to be fair Wizard isn't running Mentor.

I'll grant that much of that reasoning is based on best case scenarios, and usually a board wipe is about getting out from a losing position. I simply don't look at it as a conventional board wipe, but rather as more of a proactive offensive spell that is usually extremely cheap and asymmetrical. Several of the others you listed are more conditional / depend on opponent's actions, are less asymmetrical, or in the case of Cyclonic Rift are downright immoral :cool:

I will get behind you on Winds of Abandon though. If I didn't run hour, I'd probably run Winds. Similar play pattern: get rid of their junk without touching yours and then smack em for a million, and who cares about the ramp if they're dead?

I don't think it's wrong to not run Hour of Reckoning in Kykar, it's just got a tremendously high ceiling. Wizard has seen the floor lately, so I can't say I blame him for his thoughts on it.

Cuts are tough man.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
pokken wrote:
3 years ago
I honestly do not know that I would play anything that kills Kykar in a Kykar deck.
Keep in mind we run Flawless Maneuver, Boros Charm, etc., and the cast trigger off of Hour of Reckoning nets you a spirit that you can sac along with any other summoning sick spirits to help pay for the Kykar recast if you need it. The real beating comes because Hour has convoke and Kykar makes white spirits, so it's often free or very cheap. Combine it's convoke cost with Jeskai Ascendancy and *chef's kiss*. I've won by nuking all the non-tokens to clear the way for a handful of enormous Monastery Mentor tokens, so at that point I'm not concerned with Kykar being in the command zone. Although, to be fair Wizard isn't running Mentor.
While I don't really like killing Kykar either, this is an extremely good point and the idea of "killing" Kykar becomes a bit more nuanced where he can be recast or even just saved from that Wrath anyway. As mentioned, my token count isn't often as high as it could be because Kykar is effectively my only token producer. Adding in things like Mentor makes a difference.

But, even with just Kykar, wrathing and being able to recast Kykar thanks to the mana from the tokens (and the one created from casting the wrath) isn't often too difficult to play into. I had a game above where I did just that. I tapped out to do it and I probably didn't have to if I played the line a little better but I was still able to do it.

I do think Hour has a higher ceiling than I have seen but I am also guessing some of that is due to me not running any other token producers which is probably somewhat odd for this type of build. So, it is harder to make it work while also not leaving me in a spectacular position either since I don't usually get above 6 tokens for a variety of reasons. Mostly a different playstyle to be honest. I think if someone were going more heavily on either tokens or even a bit more aggro it is good. I tend to think of my tokens as mana most of the time and I like spending them so my army is generally smaller.

I just realized all this after the comment about mentor. And the appeal of Hour is probably tied, at least a little bit, into the build itself.

User avatar
WizardMN
Posts: 1963
Joined: 4 years ago
Answers: 124
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Twin Cities
Contact:

Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Note I didn't get to make my changes above yet.

I played this deck last night against Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (my own deck), God-Eternal Oketra, and Ramos, Dragon Engine (sort of a niche theme deck where everything costs either 6 or 9 mana).

I actually started off pretty poorly. I started the game with a couple good spells but didn't do a lot as I was doing what I could to hit my land drops. I don't think I missed any early land drops and cast Kykar on turn 5. I had cast Saheeli on Turn 3 as well. I only got 2 tokens out of her before she died though.

From here, I just cast a couple spells and eventually amassed an "army" of 6 spirits and 2 servos. Earlier, Oketra attacked into Saheeli and I let her die. I could have cast Jeskai Charm to put her on top (or, in the command zone really) but I let the damage go through as I think holding onto Jeskai Charm was more important for something later. The reason I couldn't just chump was because they had Shadowspear equipped to her and I only had 3 tokens at the time.

Oketra was doing a lot and Golos cast Selvala's Stampede to get Sorin Markov, Dovescape, and something else. I forgot what the other was. Since we all said "Free" but they only had 3 permanents in hand, that is all they got. They ticked down Sorin to set my life to 10 so I lost 27 life in one shot.

Narset of the Ancient Way was huge in this game though. I had already cast her so I ticked her down, drew a card, discarded Call the Coppercoats and destroyed Gisela's Duergar Hedge-Mage. This card was doing excellent work all game where they destroyed Anointed Procession, Idol of Oblivion, Pearl Medallion, and Divine Visitation on Oketra's board. In this case though, I did this so they could get it back with Sun Titan and blow up Dovescape. They had a lot of noncreature spells as well so it was in their best interest to get rid of it too.

The next turn, Golos revealed Terminus off the top to completely reset Oketra's board (and everyone else's, but it was worth it) so it was a good thing we got rid of Dovescape or it wouldn't have resolved.

Golos had gotten out Sunbird's Invocation so they were getting free stuff as well but they let their life get down pretty low. They did cast a Coveted Jewel as well when they were at 3 life. I attacked them for 2 so I could steal the Jewel and get the mana for my second main phase. I could have killed them but at one life, I didn't think there was a huge risk.

I used the card draws and the mana to cast Skullclamp and Clamp nearly my entire army since I only had 1 or 2 cards in hand. Since I had Reliquary Tower on the field, I just kept 9 cards in hand and passed the turn.

Next turn, I again discarded Hour of Reckoning to Narset to kill Oketra. Unfortunately, casting it wouldn't have done anything relevant since Oketra had a bunch of tokens too but I needed to get rid of Oketra.

I was able to stabilize and was at 18 or so life thanks to Narset keeping me afloat and my tokens stopping most attacks. Gisela attacked Oketra and I countered their Teferi's Protection because I felt that was the best way to ensure they died. Which did happen eventually. I was left against Gisela and was able to keep their board cleared with a few different spells and, since I had Sunforger out, I was able to attack in for 7 to kill them with Commander damage after getting rid of Gisela one last time. I had been going for them early because I knew their deck had a fair number of flyers and wanted to do what I could early and it worked out.

Dovescape might be a reason I should be running Boseiju, Who Shelters All to be honest but I am finding that tap lands are really slowing me down as it is and one that doesn't produce colors is even worse. I might want to include either something that can't be countered to remove artifacts or enchantments or something that cycles to remove them. I will have to see what I can find.

And, of course, this game ended up in a situation where Hour wasn't doing anything better than discard fodder for Narset (which is still pretty good to be honest). If there was a game for the Call the Coppercoats this was it, but I never got to cast it since I needed to pitch it to Narset. I waited and waited for a good chance and one never really came up. I haven't gotten great use out of it online either. I am starting to think that relying on my opponents for tokens is not going to work out as well as I would like.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”