Niv-Mizzet, Parun - "Controlled Burn" - No creatures!

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RowanKeltizar
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

PRIMER CHANGES


6/28/2020

Pull from Tomorrow ==> Rielle, the Everwise - I have found the draw multipliers are the ideal effect for this slot because they are good at just about any point in the game. Rielle has a lot of things going for her. She negates any enemy discard effects, turns having a maximum handsize into an awesome end-of-turn looting effect, but more commonly doubles our draw from cards like Faithless Looting or Tolarian Winds. The "draw X spells" simply don't perform well in this deck. I can see them being better in a deck that can reliable copy them or reduce their cost, but in this deck they are bad topdecks early game. Just remember that her ability only activates for the first discard effect per turn. If you have multiple discard effects, you will get the most value by casting them on your opponents' turns or simply waiting for your next turn.
Rules update from Gatherer-- If the first time you discard cards during your turn is due to having too many cards in hand during your cleanup step, you'll draw that many cards. Players will receive priority during the cleanup step in this case, and a new cleanup step will happen after that one, during which you may have to discard cards again.
Ponder, Preordain, Impulse ==> Thirst for Meaning, Visions of Beyond, Careful Study - In this deck, the primary strategy is to fatten my handsize. These swaps are an optimization with that strategy in mind. The latter 3 cards perform much better if I have a draw multiplier in play and also help me fill up my graveyard.


I have decided to keep Merchant Scroll in the list for now as it allows me to tutor up protective counterspells before I combo off or when I know my opponents are close to a win.

I have not yet been able to acquire a Dockside Extortionist or Fierce Guardianship, although I am certain they are good picks.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
Rhystic Study - AUTO INCLUDE - At this point, I'm trying to make myself feel better. If you don't already own a Rhystic Study, now is a good time to pick one up!
It depends on how many get opened quickly. At the moment its priced the same as the prophecy version. The demand is going to soak it up super quickly unless mass openings happen.
Its one of those sorry states that it might literally only be a $1 cheaper and that's it! But we will see, keep checking up on its pricing over the next few months.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I am a tightfisted son of a gun, rarely willing to splurge on $10+ cards anymore unless I know they will see tons of use. There's just something viscerally unpleasant about spending that much money on a piece of cardboard. Anyhow, my point is, Rhystic Study is one that I bit the bullet and dropped money on that has been absolutely worth it. If you can afford it and you play blue in edh with reasonable frequency, get one soon as the price dips (however little).
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

You are correct in that we don't know how Jumpstart is going to affect prices in the long run, but generally I see prices coming down.

Unfortunately, the prices of cards are pretty inflated at the moment. I watched all my decks gain exponentially in value over the last few moths just based on the price filter here on this site and double checking with TCGplayer. This particular deck went from being around 700 to over 1000! Since I already own the cards, it's not an issue and if I wanted to cash out, now would be a pretty good time to do it, lol and I consider that possibility often.

But for someone looking to acquire some of the old power cards like Wheel of Fortune or Intuition, it's just not realistic. I have a near mint / lightly played Wheel that I probably bought for around $25 in store credit from a shop a long time ago, and at the time I thought that was a lot of money for a piece of cardboard with ugly art. That thing is worth around $200 now! Unbelievable.

I do think that with what is going on economically in this country, we'll see another big dip in prices, possibly this fall or winter. Stimulus money will run out and people will be out of work. Sad reality. People can't eat cardboard.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
But for someone looking to acquire some of the old power cards like Wheel of Fortune or Intuition, it's just not realistic. I have a near mint / lightly played Wheel that I probably bought for around $25 in store credit from a shop a long time ago, and at the time I thought that was a lot of money for a piece of cardboard with ugly art. That thing is worth around $200 now! Unbelievable.
I remember shopping for Magic cards back online in 1994 using bulletin boards. I was outraged that Black Lotus had crept up to $40 and simply refused to spend that sort of money on a "piece of cardboard". Regrets...plenty.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

@darrenhabib Lol, that's quite the story. Imagine the regrets the SELLER of that $40 Black Lotus had to experience in the following years!

I don't really have any updates on the Primer at the moment. I did get a hold of Double Vision for testing purposes. I like the fact that it really gives us some serious value over time. I don't like spending 3RR for it and not getting much use out of it before someone nukes. Generally, I like the card and it give my spot removal spells like Chaos Warp and Lightning Bolt much more BANG for my buck.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

Double Vision didn't last long. I find that I want to be casting 2-3 spells per turn with mana open for interaction. Spending 5 is just too costly for this effect. It is much more desirable to get a draw doubler into play for this neighborhood of investment. I find myself wanting any other type of spell instead of this. Also, I always try to steer away from colored permanents whenever I can to make All is Dust as one sided as possible.

Teferi's Ageless Insight is definitely a keeper and gives me some much needed redundancy with Archive. This is a very powerful effect in this deck and is always a priority to get into play and keep there. At 4cmc this just can't get any more efficient. I will be adding it to the primer soon.

A card that I actually put back into the deck and have been experimenting with is Ivory Tower. With Archive you get double life. This card has saved me couple of times. Gaining 4 life here, 7 life there can make a big different sometimes. I try to put some lifegain in all my decks. The best thing about this card is its mana cost of course. 1 cmc is about as much as I'm willing to spend for the effect. 1 is very manageable and this makes a pretty good turn 1 play. Some might say that this is dead card, but in many cases it is just what the doctor ordered to keep me in the game. I find that with no blockers I tend to take a lot of damage, especially when people know what the deck is capable of.

Looking forward, I do plan on acquiring Force of Will and Mana Crypt this go around as long as finances allow. I don't think we will see these cards much cheaper. Of course, I would love to own the showcase FoW but I will have to let go of that dream! Such a beautiful card though.

I want to drop Thran Dynamo and Mana Vault for rocks that gives us colored mana. Sapphire Medallion also needs to come out for something better as many of my spells are already pretty efficient and/or red cards.

Fabled Passage and Prismatic Vista need to go in still as shuffle effects are pretty strong. Just waiting for a Scroll Rack reprint, and Scalding Tarn for that matter!

Fierce Guardianship probably should be in here. Any free counterspell is a premium counterspell in my eyes, and judging by the price tag that seems to be the general consensus.

Oh, and Past in Flames needs to come in soon as well. Just waiting to pick up a copy. I like the Chandra's spellbook version.

Other than that, this deck runs like it should and continues to be the most powerful of all my decks due to sheer card advantage and control. I would really appreciate Wizards printing some better red or blue tutors that can get enchantments. I'm sure there is a way to make it fit in the color pie or just have it be EDH exclusive. Also, if I could streamline my Inner Fire - Comet Storm win con in some way I think that would be an improvement as well.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

PRIMER CHANGES


9/28/2020

Reiterate ==> Teferi's Ageless Insight - Why Reiterate? For a while Reiterate served the function of going infinite with Inner Fire, but now with Underworld Breach, it is redundant for that purpose. Otherwise, I don't have a whole lot of blowout spells I want to copy with Reiterate. Generally, I find it sitting my hand waiting to used which means it has to go.

Mystic Retrieval ==> Past in Flames- This is mostly a strict upgrade. Past in Flames has the benefit of working a lot better with Inner Fire and the cheap card draw late-game. It also generally works very well in my graveyard, whereas Retrieval is a bit more limited in late-game scenarios.


I also want to talk about a few cards that have been on my mind lately @darrenhabib @benjameenbear maybe you could chime in with your thoughts here.

RITUALS

Dramatic Reversal, Turnabout, High Tide, Mana Geyser, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song - in terms of mana acceleration these are on theme and play well with Niv triggering his draw. I am thinking these might eventually allow me to cut Inner Fire and/or Comet Storm or at least REPLACE some of the subpar artifact ramp, especially the ones that give me only colorless mana.

My thinking here is that all of these spells play well with Underworld Breach and my other recursion spells. Lategame, I should be able to get Niv into play in order to close out the game no matter how much he costs, therefore circumventing the need to run Inner Fire/Comet Storm as an alt win condition. The fact that he himself can't be countered is a boon and I run enough free counterspells that he should be safe at that point to an instant speed removal.

My route to victory at that point would be to simply chain hand cycling spells like Winds of Change until everyone is dead. Underworld Breach helps here as well.

Ideally, these ritual spells are useful in the first few turns to help me cast Niv a turn or two earlier landing them in my graveyard for later recursion. The same cannot be said for Inner Fire/Comet storm which is their main drawback - near useless early game.

The goal here being to minimize the number of cards that I don't want to see in my opening hands. When I think about what kinds of cards I DO want to see, it is always ramp, cheap draw, and cheap removal.

I want to reiterate here that I have no interest in running the infinite draw combos. I think they are gimmicky, fragile, and situational. I want to focus on streamlining the deck into a state where I have the majority of my library in my hand and can easily win with Niv through casting the handcycling effects.

COUNTERSPELLS

In more competitive tables, I am finding that the main strength of this deck is the counter magic and control as the strengths of black and green are overwhelming otherwise. I would like to add 2-3 additional counterspells to the deck and I need to make some space for those. What do you think makes sense to cut?

What comes in? The best counterspells that I am not currently running are: Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Remand, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, and potentially Stubborn Denial, Delay,Logic Knot, Rites of Refusal and Disallow.

OTHER STUFF

Ivory Tower is still performing well for me, providing a buffer for creature beats. Parun rarely comes out early game which means this is almost always a mid-range control deck. I can't stop all the creature beats with my removal spells.

Crucible of Worlds is a card that I am currently testing as it plays nicely with fetchlands. Cephalid Colosseum is amazing with it. I always have cards in my graveyard, so it is rarely doing nothing, although I feel it isn't necessary to my main strategy. Has been interesting to play with though.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
Dramatic Reversal, Turnabout, High Tide, Mana Geyser, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song - in terms of mana acceleration these are on theme and play well with Niv triggering his draw. I am thinking these might eventually allow me to cut Inner Fire and/or Comet Storm or at least REPLACE some of the subpar artifact ramp, especially the ones that give me only colorless mana.
I will say that High Tide is a card that is supremely underplayed in casual to 75% circles and of course played in every cEDH deck that can stock it properly, in fact being the main win condition.
I think your deck would be a step higher in competitiveness with its inclusion. I think your land base supports it fine. There is a bit of misconception that you need an all Island deck to warrant it, but once you get a feel for its power, you'll know what I mean.
Mystic Sanctuary is a must for this deck and I'll even point at High Tide as a target of renewal when you have draw for the same turn you cast it.
I'd replace Tolaria West, Vesuva, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea with Mystic Sanctuary and two basic Islands with the inclusion of High Tide.
I feel like I've already discussed this with you but Tolaria West spending 1uu on getting a land or even Pact is pretty janky (imo) and you don't even have Mana Crypt as a searchable source. I bet you it is a tapped land 8/10 games.

Your "combo" with Underworld Breach is to tie together Frantic Search with High Tide for gaining mana each time you cast them.

Now you do have a lot of graveyard recursion and I feel like maybe this is left over from before you had access to Underworld Breach?
I would remove Finale of Promise and Mission Briefing.
In more competitive tables, I am finding that the main strength of this deck is the counter magic and control as the strengths of black and green are overwhelming otherwise. I would like to add 2-3 additional counterspells to the deck and I need to make some space for those. What do you think makes sense to cut?

What comes in? The best counterspells that I am not currently running are: Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Remand, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, and potentially Stubborn Denial, Delay, Logic Knot, Rites of Refusal and Disallow.
I mean if you can buy Force of Will and/or Mana Drain then of course these are the first picks.
Otherwise on budget I'd add Dispel and Delay. Honestly Delay just plays like a hard counter and you will not be disappointed by Dispel.
Fierce Guardianship is pretty tempting as well. Just being able to cast Niv on curve tapped out and feel like you have control is a great feeling.

As far as cuts I've already mentioned Finale of Promise and Mission Briefing.
I think Fabricate is a little weak in your deck as you don't specifically have any artifact "combos".

I would also replace Fateful Showdown with Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge as Valakut is cheaper, actually provides card advantage (it draws you an additional card) and also allows you to play it as a land so you get to go up a land count while upgrading a spell. Also you get to keep a key card or two if you want. The damage difference I think negates anything as you should be able to clear the most relevant creatures on board anyway with Niv in play.
It doesn't discard however, so won't get graveyard benefits. But overall I think it's an upgrade.
If you are reluctant to replace Fateful Showdown then I'd include Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge over a basic Mountain.

You could also look to play Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass over a basic Mountain.
Ivory Tower is still performing well for me, providing a buffer for creature beats. Parun rarely comes out early game which means this is almost always a mid-range control deck. I can't stop all the creature beats with my removal spells.

Crucible of Worlds is a card that I am currently testing as it plays nicely with fetchlands. Cephalid Colosseum is amazing with it. I always have cards in my graveyard, so it is rarely doing nothing, although I feel it isn't necessary to my main strategy. Has been interesting to play with though.
I'm just not a fan of either of them. 3 life a turn with Ivory Tower or you could play something more proactive like Abrade that kills the creature that was doing 3 damage to you a turn in the first place and prevents opponents advantages. This is always the way I look at cards.
If you mention Reliquary Tower with Ivory Tower, then this is just a win more situation as you'll have lots of cards to look to combo anyway.

Crucible of Worlds is my number one bug-bear overplayed not quite understood card for all of commander play. If you are not drawing enough cards to get a land drop every turn in this particular deck then is is not functioning on some level.
Maybe that Ivory Tower needs to be a Gitaxian Probe and that Crucible of Worlds be a Ponder :P
Anyway you see where I'm coming from.

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Post by Reaper_RM » 3 years ago

I also agree with Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge. The card is amazing and imo definitely an upgrade for you. It's making it's way into my Locust God deck as soon as I get a copy.

Also, if you're considering Preordain type effects, the new card Deliberate is strictly better. Instant speed Preordain feels pretty good. Gives you a chance to dig in the counter war, or to help setup your next draw step. Plenty of options it can fill. Yet, another card that is going to my Locust God, just cause of the value from it.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

I will say that High Tide is a card that is supremely underplayed in casual to 75% circles and of course played in every cEDH deck that can stock it properly, in fact being the main win condition.
I think your deck would be a step higher in competitiveness with its inclusion. I think your land base supports it fine. There is a bit of misconception that you need an all Island deck to warrant it, but once you get a feel for its power, you'll know what I mean.
Mystic Sanctuary is a must for this deck and I'll even point at High Tide as a target of renewal when you have draw for the same turn you cast it.
I'd replace Tolaria West, Vesuva, Mikokoro, Center of the Sea with Mystic Sanctuary and two basic Islands with the inclusion of High Tide.
Yes, I think these are good moves. Mikokoro has actually been out of my paper deck for a while, I just haven't updated the primer. Streamlining the list for High Tide is smart too I think. Are there any other rituals you think are worth running. I am leaning toward Turnabout for flexibility but also the two red rituals for filtering into Niv. Especially if I end up running less mountains.

Vesuva definitely isn't needed and one of my other decks could likely benefit from it a lot more. Tolaria West is still something I like having to grab Reliquary Tower. I am planning on getting a Mana Crypt soonish.
I would also replace Fateful Showdown with Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge as Valakut is cheaper, actually provides card advantage (it draws you an additional card) and also allows you to play it as a land so you get to go up a land count while upgrading a spell. Also you get to keep a key card or two if you want. The damage difference I think negates anything as you should be able to clear the most relevant creatures on board anyway with Niv in play.
I agree with this assessment. Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge is most likely a strict upgrade.
As far as cuts I've already mentioned Finale of Promise and Mission Briefing.
I think Fabricate is a little weak in your deck as you don't specifically have any artifact "combos".
Interesting, I have been feeling I could drop one recursion card but those are not the ones I would choose. Mizzix Mastery or Past in Flames would be more likely candidates just because they more mana intensive. Hmm, not sure here.

I get your logic on Fabricate, but it grabs Archive nearly 100% of the time. Sometimes a mana rock. To me that has been worth it, but maybe now with the added redundancy in other areas it is less necessary.

Crucible of Worlds is my number one bug-bear overplayed not quite understood card for all of commander play. If you are not drawing enough cards to get a land drop every turn in this particular deck then is is not functioning on some level.
Maybe that Ivory Tower needs to be a Gitaxian Probe and that Crucible of Worlds be a Ponder :P
Anyway you see where I'm coming from.
Yeah, crucible is definitely coming out. I just wanted to see what it did for me. I struggle to find a deck it really belongs in. Ivory Tower has been good enough in my meta but I don't plan on adding it to the primer. I actually really like Magmaquake because it hits planeswalkers and is a pretty flexible sweeper that doesn't touch Niv.

Gitaxian Probe could be interesting. Free draw is cool. I think the hand peek is sort of nifty, but questionable in multiplayer. Maybe you could expound on the merits of this card for me.

I ran Ponder and Preordain for a while, but I find I like the instant speed looting effects better as they synergize with my draw doublers and help to fill my graveyard. Still worth considering though as they are quite helpful early game.

Also, if you're considering Preordain type effects, the new card Deliberate is strictly better. Instant speed Preordain feels pretty good. Gives you a chance to dig in the counter war, or to help setup your next draw step. Plenty of options it can fill. Yet, another card that is going to my Locust God, just cause of the value from it.
I wouldn't say strictly better but instant speed is great. Neat card.
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
Are there any other rituals you think are worth running. I am leaning toward Turnabout for flexibility but also the two red rituals for filtering into Niv. Especially if I end up running less mountains.

Interesting, I have been feeling I could drop one recursion card but those are not the ones I would choose. Mizzix Mastery or Past in Flames would be more likely candidates just because they more mana intensive. Hmm, not sure here.
I agree you should only run either Mizzix's Mastery or Past in Flames and not both.
The fact that cards get exiled means that Underworld Breach becomes less useful after either of the above.
Now Past in Flames is better when you run the Rituals, as it can be much harder to setup the sort of turn you want earlier.
You can look at them a way to cast Niv a turn earlier AND a way to fix your red for Niv, which I'm sure can be awkward some games.
Then you are almost guaranteed to replace the Ritual if you cast Niv off it with somebody casting a spell.
Then as I said it makes Past in Flames a bit easier to get going.
The reason that I lean towards Past in Flames is that you can use Gamble or Intuition specifically for it and so it doesn't matter if it goes to your graveyard.
Intuition can be Past in Flames, Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual.
I don't like Seething Song as it only give you red mana that is waaay more than you need for Niv and this cuts you off maybe blue that you'd need for Niv by having to spend 2r in the first place. Let's say you have 3 Islands in play and 2 Mountains. You have to tap an Island to cast it and this takes you off Niv mana requirements.

Turnabout or Dramatic Reversal is better when a deck is fully kitted out with mana rocks as it allows you to get value in games potentially earlier, rather than waiting to have a threshold of lands in order to make it useful for mana producing. Obviously great with High Tide, but you need to be aware that is two cards that you need to have at your disposal at the same time.
I honestly have never seen Turnabout being used to tap down opponents stuff, it really isn't slotted into decks for that type of use.

Now you mention Finale of Promise and Mission Briefing but I will say that that my absolute favorite card along these lines is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy.
It just does so many thing for two mana. Filters through cards early and then you can determine if you want to transform him or not depending on being able to protect as when a planeswalker. The fact that you don't have to spend additional mana in the same turn you want to cast an instant or sorcery in your graveyard is a h.u.g.e game.
I know he is another "creature" for a basically creatureless deck, but he doesn't seem to attract attention for targeted removal and as I say you can wait for the transform part.
If somebody casts a creature board wipe then you can activate him to then flip him.
He is a $25 card so you know you pay for quality, but keep him in mind for this slot in the future.
Gitaxian Probe could be interesting. Free draw is cool. I think the hand peek is sort of nifty, but questionable in multiplayer. Maybe you could expound on the merits of this card for me.

I ran Ponder and Preordain for a while, but I find I like the instant speed looting effects better as they synergize with my draw doublers and help to fill my graveyard. Still worth considering though as they are quite helpful early game.
I'm certainly not pushing for cantrips in your deck, but I will say that hand peek is often more than "nifty". Often I'll use it to see if the path is clear for combos on the player who seems to have disruption up.
I guess imagine casting Niv (completely tapped out), casting Gitaxian Probe, draw 2 cards, kill a 2 toughness creature all for 0 seems reasonable to me.
Great with Past in Flames (and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy).

Another change I'd personally make is Mystic Confluence instead of Evacuation. It just has so many other uses, and you can remove the most threatening creatures if want to use it in the Evacuation type mode. Holding up 3uu through the turn cycle for a potential Evacuation is a bit hit or miss, where as Mystic Confluence is always a hit as you can just use it to draw 3 cards if it turns out opponents didn't commit to the board or attack like you thought they might.

I also like to do counts for cost reduction cards like Sapphire Medallion. It helps reduce the cost of 23 cards in your deck.
If you played Baral, Chief of Compliance he would actually help you reduce the cost on 30 of your cards.
Again a creature, but he rarely actually is the target of removal and with the added bonus of draw/discard with counterspells he just seems better than the Medallion in your deck.
This will have a big pay off when it comes to a big Past in Flames turn as you'll be cost reduced on the Red cards as well.
Think Baral, Chief of Compliance casting Intuition for the Past in Flames and Rituals.

I think this is what I'd at least try for a few weeks.
Fabricate => High Tide
Thran Dynamo => Pyretic Ritual
Finale of Promise => Desperate Ritual
Mizzix's Mastery => Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Sapphire Medallion => Baral, Chief of Compliance
Evacuation => Mystic Confluence
Mission Briefing => Delay
Narset's Reversal => Dispel
Mindbreak Trap => Fierce Guardianship
Fateful Showdown => Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge

Plus the land changes I suggested..and fine keep Tolaria West in ;)
The reason for cutting Thran Dynamo is that it is colorless mana and you are adding 3 mana cards in High Tide and the Rituals so you just got to adjust.

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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

I appreciate your reaching out to ask for my opinion @RowanKeltizar. It's a great way to encourage dialogue!

darrenhabib has some great suggestions for cards to add and cut, so I definitely recommend trying out what he's already suggested. He and I think similarly along CMC and power levels and definitely trend towards cEDH style of play. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but optimal play and deck-building is definitely important to both of us.

Alright, so my initial thoughts about the Rituals you're considering are that they're good and definitely have a strong place with Niv. Since you're very dedicated and rightfully describing this list as a Mid-Range control deck and you've also decided to streamline your deck by not having dedicated and clunky win condition slots, the general philosophy you'll want to adopt is "Is the power of this card worth its CMC?" This means that if you can find the same effect or similar-adjacent effect on a cheaper card you should definitely consider it because EVERY card in your deck needs to have maximal impact.

The wonderful thing about Niv is that when he resolves, he's VERY difficult to get off the board and is an incredibly potent win condition/board control piece. Particularly with hand-cycling effects, his potential to nuke the board just from advancing your primary game plan is super simple, so I too agree with the idea of switching your list to a dedicated winconless list and rely on Niv's damage trigger to get you there.

So, High Tide and the rituals you listed are very strong candidates for inclusion in your list because they do two things for you: accelerate you into an early Niv (which is ALWAYS great) AND synergize with Niv's trigger to draw you cards in the late game. This means that your Rituals are never truly dead, since they'll either advance your primary strategy of getting Niv ASAP OR will recycle you a card and create Storm-like turns so that you can accrue massive Card Advantage and Board Control relative to your opponents. Of the ones you listed, I really like High Tide, Dramatic Reversal, and Seething Song. Their CMC's are lovely, the value they accrue is well-demonstrated in EDH, and they're all easily tutored for in IZzet colors. The Reversal is particularly powerful because it synergizes for an infinite combo with a card that would already be incredible in your list: Isochron Scepter.

I know, I know, the dreaded Dramatic Reversal combo. But hear me out: this creates a clean infinite win condition that you don't HAVE to play as a win condition, which allows you some modularity and control over how the texture of the game feels for you and your opponents. Being able to put a Reality Shift or Into the Roil underneath a Scepter is great value for you while opening up the option to end the game when the table's ready to move on. The Scepter would be an AWESOME value piece for you so that you can maximize your control over the game and accrue massive value from Niv's trigger since the Scepter CASTS its imprinted spell.

Either way, Dramatic Reversal will be your best ritual spell because of the mana rock suite you already have. It will generate the most mana for you in my own personal experience, so this would be the first one I'd personally recommend. And it plays very nicely with Underworld Breach.

ASIDE: I think @darrenhabib will sing the praises of Breach for as long as it's legal (me too!). Breach is now one of the premier Combo pieces in cEDH, FYI, so I think running this card is ABSOLUTELY worth it. Contrary to popular opinion, you DON'T need LED to win the game with Breach for an infinite combo. I personally loathe LED and Breach has been incredible in my cEDH Breya list WITHOUT LED. #rant

I too agree that Mystic Confluence might be a tad better for you than Evacuation. I can definitely see the appeal of Evacuation, so I won't blame you for playing it since having a hard reset is appreciated at times.

Don't forget about Echo of Eons as another Wheel effect that LOVES to be discarded and ups your density of Wheel effects to Burn the table out with.

Of the Counterspells you're considering, Fierce Guardianship, Force of Will, and Mana Drain are definitely the ones you should consider first (if budget allows). Their power is easily demonstrated, so I'll assume you're familiar with their power and accept why you should add them. But if budget is a concern, then Delay and Disallow are great recommendations. Everyone downplays Disallow's CMC, but the flexibility it offers and its broad spectrum coverage has been very valuable for me personally. I hate having a Dispel in hand when I need to counter an Enchantment, Sorcery, or Artifact.

I also will second darren's recommendation of Mystic Sanctuary. It's basically a FREE Noxious Revival for this kind of deck and should absolutely be played.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

Thank you both for your responses. I've been craving a bit of dialogue on my decklists as things have been a bit stagnant lately. I don't particularly want to bring this deck fully into cEDH territory and probably can't anyway because of budget. It is already getting close though. There are a few pet cards and interactions I will probably hold onto forever lol.

I hope we get a High Tide reprint at some point. It's a bit surprising to me that there is only one printing of it. I'm not overly excited about the art. Maybe I'll make a proxy, haha.

What are your thoughts on Inner Fire at this point? I think my approach will be to take it out and see how the deck performs without that combo and running High Tide instead. I still like Inner Fire with Underworld Breach and Past in Flames just because of how much mana it can make, but I hate drawing into it early game as it is a worse version of Seething Song, whereas High Tide should at least give me an extra blue or two to cast Niv on those early turns.

Coldsteel Heart is pretty meh and will likely come out for one of the rituals. I agree with your logic on Thran Dynamo. With my mana curve getting lower and lower it has become something I don't love in my opening hand. I have other decks that can use it.

I could see Baral being better than the medallion in many cases, especially as you said, when I'm comboing out. The looting trigger is of course fantastic. However, I still am leery about him just getting wiped out through collateral damage on a board wipe (likely my own) which is fairly inevitable and aside from Breach, I have no way of recurring him. Still worth a try though.

Evacuation has actually already been swapped to Magmaquake in my paper deck for a while now and I am liking it as a cheap sweeper. Hitting walkers is a nice bonus. It can deal with most types of tokens, although angels, birds, and thopters are still alive. pesky things! I didn't like that Evac hit Niv as well a lot of the time and was always a high cost spell. Only hitting creatures was a bit limited when there are often walkers, enchantments, or artifacts that need to get blown up.

On that note, I have also been running Vandalblast again to good effect. Blowing up an early Sol Ring for just R is good, and it can also of course be an answer to more heavy artifact decks.

I tried Mystic Confluence, but I found I wasn't too happy paying 3UU to draw 3 cards which is more often what I used it for. Not when I can somewhat regularly draw 8 cards from Brainstorm by comparison. I am however in favor to simply changing this slot to a solid counterspell like Delay or FoW when I get a copy.

I can try not running Fabricate and see what that does for me. Whir of Invention would actually be more likely to come out just because I need to have more mana up front to get Archive into play, although instant speed is shouldn't be discounted.

I am eternally annoyed that we don't get very many good tutors in these colors. EDH kind of demands them in a 99 card singleton deck. Yes, blue has draw, but I still don't feel that that entirely negates the need for decent tutors.

Gitaxian Probe sounds like something worth giving a run. I do like the prospect of drawing 2 cards for 2 life. (Probably 4 cards more often :P) And yes, I can see the value of it when comboing out.

I don't see myself swapping out either Mission Briefing or Narset's Reversal at this time. They have both been performing quite well for me. The same goes for Mindbreak Trap. Exiling spells at no cost is good. It's a good response when someone is baiting removal or counters before their bigger or game ending plays. It also stops early combos with Food Chain and such before I can realistically leave mana open for regular counters.

Mizzix's Mastery hits either All is Dust or Time Spiral 80% of the time, which feels pretty good, however yes, not very useful early game. It's kind of a relic from when I used to run Enter the Infinite.

SWAPS FOR TESTING PURPOSES
Rituals/mana:
Coldsteel Heart ==> Pyretic Ritual

Thran Dynamo ==> Desperate Ritual

Mana Vault ==> Dramatic Reversal - not sure I love this, but I own a copy so it won't hurt to give it a run. Mana Vault is a bit bothersome in this deck just because it acts like a ritual but doesn't give me colored mana. I am worried that since I'm dropping 2 mana rocks here, that Dramatic Reversal is going to be less useful to me. Having a card that only realistically interacts with 10 cards in my deck seems bad, and I still don't feel great about Isochron Scepter. I've given it a run several times but it almost always gets blown up immediately.

Inner Fire ==> High Tide

Sapphire Medallion ==> Baral, Chief of Compliance - I have my doubts that he will stick, but worth a try. Otherwise this slot will eventually be a Mana Crypt.

Removal/Counters

Comet Storm ==> Disallow - I have seen people counter abilities to great effect. My favorite being when someone tries to win by decking themselves with something like Thassa's Oracle. I agree that hard counters are better than situational counters most of the time.

Evacuation ==> Magmaquake - a bit more efficient and flexible I am hoping

Mountain ==> Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass - I think I can pull this one off. Having the option for removal seems like an auto-include

Negate ==> Fierce Guardianship Of the more expensive counters, this is within my budget at the moment and should do a lot of work for me.

Draw
Fateful Showdown ==> Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge - I think an option to have a land drop here is great. I have also been wanting a functional copy of Winds of Change since discarding 40-50 cards can be a liability at times.

Mizzix Mastery ==> Gitaxian Probe - this is the recursion card I am willing to drop for now. Probe seems like it has potential.

Whir of Invention ==> Mystic Remora -Whir tends to be a bit mana intensive and not as useful in my opening hand as I'd want it to be. Triple blue can be an obstacle. The improvise is never used. I want to give Ramora a spin.

Lands:
Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse ==> Prismatic Vista, Fabled Passage - this is a derp swap, but i have been waiting for a reprint which we got, so it's time to purchase these cards.

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea ==> Mystic Sanctuary - seems like a no-brainer to me as well!

Vesuva ==> Riverglide Pathway // Lavaglide Pathway - I want to try out this land. Probably not 100% ideal, but I still think it is likely better than just a mountain. Perhaps not better than just an island with High Tide though.

Forgotten Cave, Lonely Sandbar, Ghost Quarter ==> 3 Islands - Optimizing for High Tide
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WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
BRGSoul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

SET REVIEW - COMMANDER LEGENDS

AUTO INCLUDE - should be run as it is strictly better than other options
WORTH TESTING probably has some merit in certain builds or playstyles. More testing is needed to see if it fits.
NO THANKS - In my opinion, simply not worth consideration

BLUE
Hullbreacher - WORTH TESTING - because it's a creature, it doesn't really make the cut for me, but this is a really powerful card in virtually any creature based Izzet build.

Mana Drain (reprint) - AUTO INCLUDE - yes! Let's see how low this gets. Definitely will pick up a copy if I can.
RED
Jeska's Will - WORTH TESTING - this is actually worth talking about. I think the chances of someone having 4+ cards in hand at any given time is pretty high, especially if I've been wheeling. The potential to dig 3 cards deep is also not bad at all for the cost. If everyone is hellbent, casting it for its second mode isn't going to hurt us. This also serves the much desired function of filtering us into RRR early game. More and more I've been enjoying the sorcery based rituals in this deck over the less desirable mana rocks. It's on theme and it works for the deck.

Volcanic Torrent - WORTH TESTING - I really want to like this card becuase it is one sided burn that also hits walkers. It's on theme. However, as sweeper, it's probably not better than a Magmaquake or a simple Earthquake. 5cmc is a lot for this deck, even with the Cascade. I wish they had pushed this card a little more.

Wheel of Misfortune - NO THANKS lol, just wanted to mention this one because it's kind of hilarious, but since I have the real deal, this has too many words on it and the chance you not getting the draw is really bad.
COLORLESS
Scroll Rack (reprint) - AUTO INCLUDE - finally! Yes, this is probably going in at long last. It's a broken effect, although I sometimes question how much I really need it at this point. Some of my other decks might need it more. I've always wanted to try the Land Tax combo.

Jeweled Lotus - Ummmm - I guess this is worth testing. It seems especially good with Niv because of his color weight, however that is it's ONLY purpose and you only get the effect once. Not sure how I feel about that. I think I'd prefer to run a socery based ritual in most cases. If I was leaning more into fast combo, I think this would be great, but that's not the direction I've taken for the deck.

Training Center - AUTO INCLUDE - yes, another untapped dual land is welcome. Most likely will go in for a Mountain as I have no direct synergies with mountains in this list.
WRBKaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
WBElenda, the Dusk Rose - Drain and Gain
WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
BRGSoul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
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WU Shorikai, Genesis Engine
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

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WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
BRGHenzie, "Toolbox" Torre - Creature Feature
BRGSoul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
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UBSygg, River Cutthroat
WU Shorikai, Genesis Engine
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

SET REVIEW - KALDHEIM

Wow, what a set! Lots of things to discuss, and lots of cards that will probably find homes in my other decks. There are probably only one or two cards that will actually make it into this Primer, but that's still a higher number than most releases. I'm excited for this set!

AUTO INCLUDE - should be run as it is strictly better than other options
WORTH TESTING probably has some merit in certain builds or play-styles. More testing is needed to see if it fits.
NO THANKS - In my opinion, simply not worth consideration. I will only specifically call out cards that might be considered by some players or otherwise fit with this deck's theme or purpose.

BLUE
Behold the Multiverse, Graven lore -- NO THANKS From my experience we don't ever want to be paying more than three mana for this type of effect. We have to compare these things to cards like Faithless Looting and Brainstorm.

Mystic Reflection - WORTH TESTING - This is an insanely powerful card. It can be used defensively but in terms of our own strategy it doesn't do a whole lot since we barely have any creatures in the list. I would recommend you give a try or find a home for it in any creature based Izzet deck.
RED
Tibalt's Trickery - WORTH TESTING - This certainly fits in the category of counterspells that are worth consideration for the deck. The 2 cmc non-conditional counters with a drawback. Other counters in this category are Arcane Denial and Delay. They have the very desirable benefit of being easy to cast. I like Trickery because it is red, which means I don't always have to have blue mana in rerserve. This can be helpful when casting Inner Fire or another red ritual. My gut feeling about this particular card is that there are better options for us simply because we are already in blue. The potential for backfire on this spell is pretty big. I like it because it's a "fun" counter. This feels a lot fairer than say a Counterspell. But for that same reason I don't think its ever going to be as competitive. I am however planning on picking up a copy and seeing how it plays, if only for the "fun factor"

Open the Omenpaths - NO THANKS sadly, the restriction this makes it a no go. Seething Song is going to be better for us every time. I wish this was different as I am feeling we can use a ritual that also adds blue mana.

Birgi, God of Storytelling - WORTH TESTING This one is really interesting and I would go so far as to say potentially an auto-include for a storm type of deck. Both sides of this card offer some very powerful effects. Sadly, the god side only gives us red mana, however it still effectively reduces the cost of our spells by R. This effectively equates to a one sided Helm of Awakening or a 3 cmc The Immortal Sun. I think that's a great effect for 3 mana. Also I should mention I see combo potential with this and Underworld Breach, particularly if you have a wheel effect such as Wheel of Fortune or Winds of Change. With of Winds of Change you can simply keep wheeling your hand until you run of cards to exile with escape.

Harnfel, Horn of Bounty -- The artifact side also offers something interesting. Most notably I see this gives us a free card draw from Rielle, the Everwise once per turn. It also acts as kind of pseudo Scroll Rack. This can effectively double our handsize in terms of the cards we have access to - turning lands or other non-useful cards into something useful.



Regarding the Primer:

I will soon be following this post up with official primer changes regarding the rituals and few other swaps I've made in the last few months. I just wanted to give the deck sufficient time to prove those changes so I can confidently modify the primer.

What I will say is that the rituals have really proven themselves. Especially High Tide and Jeska's Will. Making the swap from the less good mana rocks to these rituals just feels like a really positive change for the deck.

By and by I am taking out a lot of the higher cost spells and some of the recursion, and adding in cheap draw and rituals. I did finally acquire a Force of Will which will be added to the primer as well.
WRBKaalia, Zenith Seeker - Certified Air Raid Material
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WRAurelia, the Warleader - Tokens/Equipment
URNiv-Mizzet, Parun - Controlled Burn primer
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BRGSoul of Windgrace - Lands Matter
RGWGishath, Sun's Avatar - I'M YOUR DADDY
GWUBAtraxa, Praetors' Voice - Artifact Stax Beatdown
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UBSygg, River Cutthroat
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

RowanKeltizar wrote:
3 years ago
Tibalt's Trickery - WORTH TESTING - This certainly fits in the category of counterspells that are worth consideration for the deck. The 2 cmc non-conditional counters with a drawback. Other counters in this category are Arcane Denial and Delay. They have the very desirable benefit of being easy to cast. I like Trickery because it is red, which means I don't always have to have blue mana in rerserve. This can be helpful when casting Inner Fire or another red ritual. My gut feeling about this particular card is that there are better options for us simply because we are already in blue. The potential for backfire on this spell is pretty big. I like it because it's a "fun" counter. This feels a lot fairer than say a Counterspell. But for that same reason I don't think its ever going to be as competitive. I am however planning on picking up a copy and seeing how it plays, if only for the "fun factor"
Technically with Force of Negation and Force of Will you want blue cards. Sorry my left brain has to point that out lol.
Harnfel, Horn of Bounty -- The artifact side also offers something interesting. Most notably I see this gives us a free card draw from Rielle, the Everwise once per turn. It also acts as kind of pseudo Scroll Rack. This can effectively double our handsize in terms of the cards we have access to - turning lands or other non-useful cards into something useful.
I think you could be underestimating how much the Harnfel, Horn of Bounty side could work with the general concept of the deck.
In any storm turn in acts as a pseudo Alhammarret's Archive or Teferi's Ageless Insight.
You can aggressively exile cards in response to your own handcycling spells to really setup a turn to play out perhaps a lot of artifact mana.
The fact that it is not a creature means in games where creatures get destroyed on sight gives you more versatility with games.
I guess I'm quite excited to see how this cards perform in some of my decks as well.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

PRIMER CHANGES


1/27/2021

RITUALS/MANA

Generally, I am transitioning this deck's mana sources over to instant/sorcery based "rituals" whenever possible and effective. I find these spells to be very much superior for a lot of reasons:

1. They can accelerate us into casting Niv much earlier. As opposed to colorless ramp, these spells actually fix our colors. Getting Niv onto the table is one of the biggest goals of the deck since he is such a strong draw engine with the rest of the cards in the list.

2. They trigger Niv's ability if he is already on the battlefield. With these rituals, it is a basically a free draw trigger since the mana used to cast is immediately refunded. This can help you "storm off" into bigger and bigger plays.

3. They play very well with Past in Flames and Underworld Breach, allowing us to really go off if we are using these recursion effects.


Mana Vault ==> High Tide - I have no efficient method or trick to untap mana vault and the fact that it only gives us colorless was a limitation. I have found High Tide to be an extremely powerful effect. At its worst it is a blue Dark Ritual, at its best it will give us arbitrarily large amounts of mana with Underworld Breach and untap effects.

Thran Dynamo, Coldsteel Heart ==> Pyretic Ritual, Desperate Ritual - These 2 mana rocks were the ones I consistently didn't like seeing. Dynamo only gives colorless and Heart comes into play tapped. Both these instant speed rituals help us accelerate and fix our mana for casting Niv and later on help us storm off.

Fellwar Stone ==> Seething Song ==> Fellwar Stone has been inconsistent. Many times it just taps for red or blue but not both and even sometimes just colorless. Seething Song definitely leans into the zone of red rituals that aren't as effective and that I wish were better (Geosurge, Irencrag Feat) however I still think it's better than the stone.

Chromatic Lantern ==> Jeska's Will - I have found Jeska's Will to be really phenomenal and it has secured a solid place in the deck. It typically gives me upwards of seven mana and the ability to actually grant "impulse draw" is really a nice bonus especially if I can manage to cast it multiple times.


CONTROL/REMOVAL

Negate ==> Force of Will - yup I finally picked one up. A non-foil borderless double masters copy. Absolutely gorgeous card and I have no regrets.

Evacuation ==> Magmaquake - I found I needed an efficient sweeper that didn't hit Niv. This fits the bill. Instant speed and it has the added bonus of wiping out planeswalkers.

DRAW

Whir of Invention ==> Gitaxian Probe - The triple blue felt too cumbersome and the fact that I need 8 mana to get Archive into play felt inefficient. With added draw multiplier redundancy it is less crucial to get Archive into play. As for Probe, it turns out drawing a card for 2 life is definitely worth it, and more often than not it winds up being 4 cards for 2 life!

Fateful Showdown ==> Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge - I've been thinking of this as a bit of added redundancy to Winds of Change. When I have a draw multiplier out this is a convenient way to draw lots of cards without decking myself. If I don't have a multiplier out but am trying to chain wheels with Underworld Breach this has been a great instrument to that end. It prevents the situation of my opponents saying "well, lets just see if I draw into instant speed interaction and see if I can stop you" since I am the only one wheeling. It's a lot less tedious.

Finale of Promise ==> Mystic Remora - So, I love the idea of Finale and recursion in general, however I almost always ended up casting Underworld Breach or Past in Flames at the point where I would want to be casting Finale. And Missing Briefing is the better card earlier in the game. I never like seeing recursion cards in my opening hand, so I needed to drop down my count. That said, I CANNOT BELIEVE how good Remora is. It's truly a broken card and I can't believe how cheap it is to cast and cheap in terms of $$. This is a fantastic addition to the deck and I can't believe how long it's taken me to include it.


LANDS

Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse ==> Prismatic Vista, Fabled Passage

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea ==> Mystic Sanctuary - Colorless lands are certainly a liability in this deck. I've been liking Mystic Sanctuary for the free recursion.

Vesuva ==> Riverglide Pathway // Lavaglide Pathway - I ended up moving Vesuva to another deck where I can get more value from it.

Ghost Quarter ==> Training Center - I never really care about blowing up peoples' lands in this deck, so the colorless land was a liability. I can usually just counter or remove the things those lands enable rather than the lands themselves.

Forgotten Cave, Lonely Sandbar - Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn, Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass - While the simple draw effect is somewhat missed, I DON'T miss these lands coming into play tapped. These flip lands serve a very similar function and if I absolutely need them to come into play untapped as lands I can bolt myself in pinch. The "high end" of these cards is MUCH more impactful to the game.



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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

Good to see you finally came around to the ritual inclusions! I think I advocated for them a LONG time ago (maybe even back on MTGSalvation?) as great ways to get Niv into play earlier while also not being entirely dead draws in the late game as along as you have an active Niv.

Yes, Mystic Remora is a staple of cEDH tables, and I think you're beginning to see why. The sheer amount of card draw it can generate is absurd, often times out-performing Rhystic Study in value and mana efficiency. "Don't feed the Fish!" is a saying your opponents are likely to start shouting when they see the card, lol.

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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

@benjameenbear yes, I do remember that post actually. I think it was around 2014. This deck has taken a long time to evolve as I've been on extended breaks from the game and decided to put my time and resources toward other decks. This list was strong enough as it was for most of my playgroup and I never really wanted to call it a cEDH deck.

Making the switch to Parun over Firemind necessitated a pretty substantial change in the way I built and played the deck. A positive change for sure as I never really liked relying on things like Curiosity or Dream Halls.

Recenty though, I've encountered a few new and regular opponents whose decks have another level of synergy than most I've played against and it's forced me to take a good hard look at all my decks, even this one.
The wonderful thing about Niv is that when he resolves, he's VERY difficult to get off the board and is an incredibly potent win condition/board control piece. Particularly with hand-cycling effects, his potential to nuke the board just from advancing your primary game plan is super simple, so I too agree with the idea of switching your list to a dedicated winconless list and rely on Niv's damage trigger to get you there.
I can definitely get behind this. Looking to the future, I am working on how to confidently cut Inner Fire and Comet Storm as an alt win and see if it's possible to rely on Niv's damage trigger alone for my wins. And no I am not in favor of Dramatic Scepter combo.

It takes quite a few elements to come into alignment. Everytime I try to eliminate my old tried and true win-con I start to rely on Underworld Breach instead, and if it gets into my graveyard or worse yet, exiled, I have a hard time pulling off a winning turn in one go and oftentimes I end up dying before my next turn rolls around.

So my question is, how do I win without Underworld Breach if Inner Fire / Comet Storm aren't in the deck? Life totals are still high (often play with 4 opponents too) and I have half my library in my hand and quite a bit of it in my graveyard? Just brainstorming.
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benjameenbear
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Post by benjameenbear » 3 years ago

I have two suggestions on how you could accomplish winning with your strategy of having a dedicated winconless deck.

The first is to incorporate Stax pieces. If you want to win with Niv's damage trigger, you need to be able to extend the game so that you maximize the number of cards you draw. Stax pieces are a great way to leverage your core strategy of playing control (which is the main strategy you want to take with the deck it seems) because you can invalidate multiple cards of your opponent's without having to go 1-1 via Counterspells or removal. Cards like Blood Moon, Cursed Totem, or Karn, the Great Creator are ways you could do this. Do note that there is a heavy political cost to this strategy, but it's probably the most effective one you could leverage that still stays in line with your core strategy that doesn't require other cards to be good.

Another idea is getting damage doublers into play to make Niv's ability more lethal. The cards are dead by themselves typically, but it makes the damage based removal effects much more powerful, particularly any mass-sweepers like Rolling Earthquake.

Then of course there's good ol' Thassa's Oracle. It's probably easy to trigger her ability to win the game given the scenario you describe.

I think Isochron Scepter as a win condition is too synergistic for you to ignore. You can slap on any 2 CMC instant and spam that effect while drawing cards via Niv's ability.

It might be worthwhile to look at Mind Over Matter as a way to convert cards in hand into mana advantage as well. With a couple of Wheel effects and some 'yard reshuffling effects in your list then it's possible for you to recycle your hand a bajillion times and burn people out that way. But without dedicated ritual effects, it's hard to leverage your card advantage into the resources you need to actually win.

If you want to be especially cruel, slot in Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils. Add a Wheel effect and your opponents play top-deck for the rest of the game while you Burn them out.

Essentially, if you want to leverage Niv's ability as your sole win condition, you either need to find a way to extend the game to get more time for Niv's triggers or you need a better way to leverage your card advantage into resources.

The new Kaldheim Thor would also open up some VERY interesting lines for damage based removal effects and damage doublers and convert them into damage based wins.

Anyways, that's my pondering for the day.

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RowanKeltizar
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

This certainly gives me some things to think about.

I still don't intend to take this deck into cEDH land just yet. Ultimately I really want all my opponents to still have as much fun playing the game as I am. My intention for this deck is to have a high degree of synergy and something like an 80-90% win rate in my playgroup. There are a wide range of power levels in my group. This is the deck I break out if someone else is playing control or if I have been a long losing streak with my other decks. ;)

However, I really should state this intention in the primer and give some options for those looking to take Parun to the cEDH level and you've made some very good recommendations which I will likely carry over to that section.
benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
I have two suggestions on how you could accomplish winning with your strategy of having a dedicated winconless deck.

The first is to incorporate Stax pieces. If you want to win with Niv's damage trigger, you need to be able to extend the game so that you maximize the number of cards you draw. Stax pieces are a great way to leverage your core strategy of playing control (which is the main strategy you want to take with the deck it seems) because you can invalidate multiple cards of your opponent's without having to go 1-1 via Counterspells or removal. Cards like Blood Moon, Cursed Totem, or Karn, the Great Creator are ways you could do this. Do note that there is a heavy political cost to this strategy, but it's probably the most effective one you could leverage that still stays in line with your core strategy that doesn't require other cards to be good.
My opponents do occasionaly play hatebear cards in the lines of Aven Mindcensor or Collector Ouphe. One player has a Blood Moon in their deck. So there is some stax, but not anything too consistently painful.

Personally, I am not really interested in stalling the game through resource denial so I can get to my win con. It just sounds like a way for my playgroup to dread playing against this deck even more. Very few of these stax pieces are easily tutorable being either enchantments or artifacts.

My understanding is that you want to break parity with your stax pieces. For example, running Lodestone Golem in an all artifacts deck. When I think of what this deck is, the stax pieces I think that would be most potent would be anti-creatures.

Some "stax" pieces I might be interested in are things like Crawlspace orPropaganda which don't necessarily shut down the whole table but just protect me.

I have been using Ivory Tower to buffer my life total which works fairly well since I am gaining upwards of 20-30 life on each of my upkeeps and not directly making anyone's life miserable. It fairly efficiently stalls the game in my favor since I can usually out-draw everyone.
benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
Another idea is getting damage doublers into play to make Niv's ability more lethal. The cards are dead by themselves typically, but it makes the damage based removal effects much more powerful, particularly any mass-sweepers like Rolling Earthquake.
This is something I should probably consider. In some ways it's a bit win more. I think I'd rather figure out how to get to the point where I can simply deal arbitrarily large amounts of damage. However, it does make Niv more of a threat in the mid game and lategame, yes it does help me kill the table more easily in one turn. However, yes I worry these will be dead cards and clog up my hand.
benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
Then of course there's good ol' Thassa's Oracle. It's probably easy to trigger her ability to win the game given the scenario you describe.
I still want to try to go for an instant and sorcery based win con. I worry about Oracle just being very fragile. Sure if it sticks, it wins but it always feels anticlimactic to me. And then there is Stifle, etc... I've seen it happen. :dizzy: Seriously though I'm not worried about that happening since I'm playing blue. It's just not the win-con I'm after.
benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
I think Isochron Scepter as a win condition is too synergistic for you to ignore. You can slap on any 2 CMC instant and spam that effect while drawing cards via Niv's ability.
I will likely throw it back in and see if I can get reliable use from it.
benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
It might be worthwhile to look at Mind Over Matter as a way to convert cards in hand into mana advantage as well. With a couple of Wheel effects and some 'yard reshuffling effects in your list then it's possible for you to recycle your hand a bajillion times and burn people out that way. But without dedicated ritual effects, it's hard to leverage your card advantage into the resources you need to actually win.
I used to own one. It's a neat card. The UUUU worries me however. I'd rather not slot in more high cost cards, especially non instant/sorcery ones. I've really been liking Frantic Search combined with High Tide which led me to consider Turnabout. Not sure if this would be consistent enough for me though. Pretty situational but can act as a ritual or an cheapish pseudo extra turn.
benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
If you want to be especially cruel, slot in Hullbreacher and Narset, Parter of Veils. Add a Wheel effect and your opponents play top-deck for the rest of the game while you Burn them out.
I've seen Hullbreacher and Narset played at my tables before and been on the receiving end. Yes, they are quite good. Not sure if that's a direction I want to take the deck just yet but I will consider them and definitely add them to the cEDH section of the primer.

benjameenbear wrote:
3 years ago
The new Kaldheim Thor would also open up some VERY interesting lines for damage based removal effects and damage doublers and convert them into damage based wins.
Yes, Thor looks great. Not sure if that would work with Niv though since each trigger is an individual instance, am I right? So 7 cards from Wheel of Fortune translates to 7 Niv triggers? Isn't that how it works?


I've been looking at slotting in Echo of Eons over Windfall potentially for the reason of it being some nice redundancy to Time Spiral. Echo is interesting because it doesn't exile itself which could lead to a some shinanigans. Problem is I will likely be casting it for its flashback cost most of the time.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

I'm beginning to feel like Mizzix's Mastery and Past in Flames are both on the chopping block as much as Iove the concept. They are late game finishers, but at that point there are often more efficient ways to kill the table as I typically have 20-30 cards in my hand and have plenty of options. I don't typically NEED the spells that are in my graveyard because I have so much redundancy.

The thing that dissapoints me about both of these spells are the cmc. At 4, that puts them firmly in the mid to late game spell category which Ive noticed I've been gradually cutting.

This deck is at it's most vulnerable point early in the game where I can potentially not get the ball rolling fast enough. Either I miss a land drop, don't get a draw multiplier into play or simply fall behind the G and B players. Mastery and Past in Flames are just cards I DON'T want to see at this point in the game and rarely choose to use late in the game either.

I would consider Serum Visions, Ponder and Preordain in this slot. Even though they aren't as synergistic as some of the other cheap draw spells, they are STILL very powerful and useful at just about any point in the game. They get exponentially better with Niv or a doubler in play. The main thing I don't like about these spells is that they are sorcery speed. HOWEVER, costing just a single U probably makes up for that.

If I still think I need more recursion, Shreds of Sanity still seems like a decent card to me and has actually played very well lategame when I just need a couple of key spells back into my hand. It's a bit more castable early game if want to recast some cheap draw or even tutors.

Of course $$$ wise I am still eyeballing a Mana Crypt and Mana Drain as being recently reprinted staples that I should pick up before they skyrocket again.

Baral, Chief of Compliance, and Birgi, God of Storytelling are also on my radar as strong candidates that won't break the bank.
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Post by RowanKeltizar » 3 years ago

I want to talk about a couple of cards that I will be testing. I'm in this zone of being fairly disgusted with the current state of magic. Lots of powercreep and unoriginality. Less focus on the game itself and more focus on shiny cards and price tags. Good cards are astronomically expensive.

So I've been looking at some older cards and been applying them to an EDH setting.

Those cards are:
The first card I want to talk about is Reality Ripple. I believe this card solves a problem I've been encountering where I need to cast a board wipe but Niv is in play. Often I just cast the wipe and Niv is collateral damage. Now, I could maybe use something like Darksteel Plate but what about Toxic Deluge? What about Cyclonic Rift? What about All is Dust? Indestructibility has its limits.

The second scenario is my opponents' wipes. If Niv isn't in play I don't usually care about creature wipes. They actually are a good thing for me and just let them resolve. But if Niv is in play I have the awkward conundrum of deciding whether or not to counter the wipe just to save Niv. I really loathe ever having to recast Niv. He will cost a whopping 2RRRUUU.

For targeted removal, things like Redirect or Deflecting Swat work, but what about board wipes? Redirection effects are useless in the face of a board wipe. So you normally have no choice but to counter the wipe if you don't want to lose your commander. That's why I never run those types of redirection spells. They are too situational, can't be used offensively, and can't interact with a board wipe.

Reality Ripple works very well for virtually any blue voltronish deck, especially if you have your own board wipes that get around indestructibility, etc...

AND THAT'S ONLY THE BEGINNING. When you start thinking about how to use this card offensively, the possibilities are endless. Your opponent swinging in with a HUGE creature? Your opponent about to win with Aetherflux Reservoir? You want to get rid of that Maze of Ith before combat step? This card just seems incredibly underrated for its versatility. You can think of it as a Teferi's Protection for Niv.

The next topic I want to discuss is land destruction. Recently, my playgroup has been running a lot of high powered lands that otherwise i have hard time dealing with. Things like Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Kessig Wolf Run, the list goes on!

MLD is still not really on the table in our playgroup, and besides that any MLD spell is likely going to hurt me just as much. I need a solid answer for strong utility lands that doesn't make people too salty. My first thought was cards like Wasteland or Strip Mine, but I remembered that I really don't want to run colorless lands in this deck, especially since our land count is so low. Reason being is that Niv costs UUURRR!

Single target land answers like Raze, Seismic Spike, Boomerang, or Political Trickery seem like good choices at first. They may be efficient, but I notice there are often at least 2 or 3 targets on the field that could stand to be removed. Besides, conventional deck building wisdom states that my single target removal needs to be flexible ala Chaos Warp. I considered the old standby Capsize but it's just so mana intensive. And unless you are able to cast it multiple times a turn, it just doesn't do enough. Those lands can simply be replayed. I don't want to spend 6 mana to bounce one land. Additinionally, I'm not likely to "waste" my precious Chaos Warp on a land. Lands are always enablers and rarely the target that is actually killing you.

So I need a card that can hit multiple lands without actually being MLD. What I've arrived at is Scorched Earth. The flexibility of this seems incredible. Just one problem land on the field? Fine, "1R, discard a land" seems like a bargain. But the ceiling is quite high. Lategame, I can completely devastate someone with this if need be. Sure it's a brutal play, but if it stops someone from winning, I'll take it. In this deck I always have an abundance of lands in my hand just waiting to be discard fodder.

And that's what I love about this card. Its flexibility. An Armageddon is an Armageddon and everyone hates it but Scorched Earth can be used as spot removal or it can really take a player out of the game.

Next we have Steal Enchantment. Aside from All is Dust and Chaos Warp I have very few options for enchantment removal. Also, there are plenty of powerful enchantments played regularly at my table. How cool would it be to steal someone's Necropotence or Mirari's Wake? I feel like this is a card that will always have good targets on the field.

Radiate. While the cmc is high, I think this could be a very fun card. Mass Chaos Warps or Reality Shifts would be interesting. I'm not certain this is a card I would maindeck permanently but I want to give it a try.

Fade Away. To my mind, this is like a one sided blue Toxic Deluge. Think about it. When do non-blue players or even any creature based deck leave mana open? For three mana I think this is an incredibly efficient board wipe that will almost never hit Niv, since you can just pay the 1 or sac a land to save him. Sure, other players might be willing to sac tokens or lands to save their best creatures but that's fine. The fact that this gets around hexproof, indestructibilty, and regenerate is awesome. It deals with large armies quite well, and again DOESN'T HIT NIV.
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