Sygg, River Cutthroat - Removal.dec

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Got a game in against Liesa, Shroud of Dusk and Niv-Mizzet Reborn. Breya, Etherium Shaper was also there but they didn't play. I will write up a recap of that at the bottom as it isn't even worth putting into the main summary.

I started with 2 lands, Opt, Brainstorm, and Dark Confidant. I am beginning to realize that Sygg is generally a turn 3 general (assuming no Moxen for ramp) as I would rather get other two drop down first. In this case, I dropped in Dark Confidant before Sygg.

It got me a Snuff Out on the first reveal so already off to a bit of a poor start with it, but cards are cards. Niv did his thing and just ramped while Liesa just got their general on board. I ended up really digging for lands but Opt and Brainstorm came through and made sure I didn't miss any early land drops (Dark Confidant wasn't helping much).

I did end up casting Kefnet the Mindful before Sygg and with Confidant keeping my hand full, I was able to attack and keep triggering Sygg. I did end up discarding an earlier Liliana's Standard Bearer which I think was the right call. I didn't get enough creatures in general for it to do enough and the other cards in hand were more important.

Liesa really dwindled our life totals. And then Niv copied it which was a pretty big pain. The best part of all this though is every spell made the controller lose 4 life so Sygg was triggering basically every turn.

I did fire off a somewhat early Damnation and just kept swinging with Kefnet. Liesa cast Slaughter the Strong to make me sac him though so it was sort of short lived. At the same time, Niv had Mirari's Wake and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV so we were really starting to fall behind. Slaughter the Strong really helped though so I just took out Grand Arbiter after that is what they kept. So, their board was clear but they still had Wake.

A turn or two later, I cast Bloodchief Ascension. With Liesa, it was easy to get it to trigger (and Liesa was on the field all the time) and then it was just a matter of getting cards in opponent's graveyards. Once it was turned on, Niv tried to Mortify it so I cast Insidious Will and had them target their own Wake instead. So that was taken care of, but they were still doing well to keep in the game.

A little while later, after people rebuilt, I cast Toxic Deluge for X=6 to wipe the board. I went down to 7 to do it, but Ascension brought me back up to 17. Niv got their general back down when they were at 10 life and I had a couple counters in hand with Sygg on board. I had Undermine I was going to cast and decided against it. I think this was greedy but I actually wanted Niv to copy with Stunt Double.

But I sat on it for a while and then I realized that if I took the 8 from Niv (they had a Champion's Helm on him) I would be at 9 but be able to kill him on the swingback so I held off for that. They did try to cast something and I think this I copied causing them to lose 5 (3 from Undermine and 2 from Ascension).

Liesa started their turn and cast Liesa and I realized that was a better card to copy. So I did when they attacked me with a 3/2 something. They ended up using their own Maze to remove their creature from combat so I couldn't gain life from blocking which was a definite bummer, but left me wide open to attack Niv.

So, I started my turn and that is what I did. They responded by exiling my copy with Despark but since there were 2 Liesas and my Ascension, this killed them anyway. I passed the turn and waited for Liesa to see what they would do.

This 1v1 situation was immensely exciting and very taxing. I was at 7 life or something like that so I needed to navigate Liesa's triggers while also trying to stay alive. I kept Liesa off the table a bunch and they kept using Phyrexian Reclamation which kept triggering Sygg. But they eventually cast Replenish to make their one creature a 7/? flyer and gave Liesa an Aura that gave her counters when they gained life.

At this time, I was at 10 life. I had Pongify in hand. So, I cast Pongify, going to 8. They had Liesa and the aura go to the yard so I gained 4 while they lost 4. I was at 12. I went to 5. They then had Soul Warden which allowed them to drain me a little with their flyer that would drain me every time they gained life. This got me down to 1 life with the couple spells they cast.

I knew I had Mission Briefing on top which was the big reason I need Liesa gone. I stared my turn, cast Mission Briefing to get back Damnation and cast it. I gained 8 life off their stuff going to the yard and I recast Sygg to draw a card.

They did some stuff on their turn but not a lot. I had drawn Mystical Tutor so I tutored for Sublime Epiphany at the end of their turn (after drawing with Sygg). I drew something and passed the turn. They did a couple things and I countered their spell and bounced their Vicious Hunger so I could attack. And I drew a card. I drew a Loyal Subordinate and they were at 3 life.

I went to my turn and drew a Spellseeker. I cast that first allowing Soul Warden to trigger putting them at 4. I got a removal spell and blew her up putting them at 2. I cast Subordinate and let the trigger do the rest.

All in all a crazy game and a very satisfying end. Getting down to 1 life but being able to bounce back from that felt great and just goes to show that this deck rewards (and sometimes requires) tight play.

Now, a quick comment about Breya. I will put it into a spoiler tag since it is a bit rant-y:
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So, Breya started the game with land, Sol Ring, Signet. Not too bad, but definitely a concern. Next turn they cast Dark Confidant and the turn after they cast Isochron Scepter and imprinted Dramatic Reversal. So, infinite mana, if they untap. They only had 1 mana open so couldn't go off yet.

Niv was paying attention and blew up Scepter before they could start their turn. So, first disaster averted. Their next turn, they cast Auriok Salvagers and Lion's Eye Diamond. They also cast Gitaxian Probe to look at my hand since I had 1 mana up.

They cracked the LED and tried to get it back with Salvagers obviously trying to infinite mana. They seemed convinced no one could stop them, but I still had Snuff Out in hand to blow up their Salvagers. This left them with almost no board and no hand. They probably could have cast Breya next turn to do something but they scooped it up. Something about joining a Commander Legends Draft Queue.

Which was one of my bigger issues with the situation. They seemed fine to jump into the game, end it on turn 3, and then go on their merry way. But as soon as they were stopped they just bailed. I know this is a fairly common thing online, but the sheer amount of people who jump into non-cEDH games and want to masturbate astounds me. And then when things don't go their way they just scoop which %$#% up the whole game. I really want to play against 4 people but games either ending on turn 3 or players scooping early messes with the functions of the decks I am trying to play. Even the last game with this deck, playing against 2 opponents instead of 3 made it much easier on me.

I have been trying to gloss over things like this in my more recent game summaries since I know it is just complaining and isn't really called for, but this situation just rubbed me the wrong way. We got the better of the combo player and just disrupted their combos and because they couldn't win in a couple turns, they turned tail and fled. What is the point of playing a game if you just want to Goldfish?

Anyway...........

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

Lots of glass cannons online for sure. Personally when I play combo decks in edh I tend to sandbag it as long as I can and find a time where it's reasonable to go for it as opposed to just rolling the dice. The dice rolling is right when you are playing cedh but in more casual games I find the glass cannon combo that doesn't even try to set up defense super boring.

I do find that I win a lot of games on mtgo just because other people are not emotionally tough enough to grind out a victory and play optimally despite bad beats. Seems that endurance we built up from playing controlly decks in paper is useful online heh

I love reading these sygg reports and I love this deck. Getting more and more tempted to try my own take at it.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Yeah, I find combo in general boring :P

But I think you have a good point with the idea of sticking games out to the end. I don't want to generalize too much, but it seems that, online anyway, players just want to get their quick fix of winning a game and as soon as it doesn't go their way, they just scoop it up. I do sort of understand that as I do the same thing in Arena, though that is 1v1 so a bit different.

I always find the "come from behind" victories that much sweeter. I mean even this game got me down to 1 life at one point. If I have the choice between that and "oh yeah, I comboed on turn 3 and no one saw it coming" I know the clear pick for me. I obviously don't go out of my way to make games close, but I still want them to be games where people actually play Magic.

I think your comment on playing controlly decks is actually an interesting point. Almost all my decks have that controlly nature and I think it does speak to the ability to grind out a game, even when things aren't going our way. I find myself thinking that a lot in almost all my games anyway: "ok, I am going to do this next turn and this might work after; oh, they blew my board....well I can try to draw with this and get a little board presence here". It is always a puzzle to figure out the next play, especially when plans are disrupted.

And, to be fair, I think a lot of players are like that. I think it is just the small minority that is all about "whelp, my plan didn't work; betting pack it in and try it somewhere else". But it is the minority that makes things less fun.

I would be very interested in reading your take on the build. I know our mindsets are often fairly similar but our build methods tend to differ a bit when it comes down to card choices. I would like to see where you take things.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I think ultimately what I like about combo in edh is it letting me play more control cards. I don't need as many things to try to win with if I have a nice compact wincon. Because of the life totals there's not really an easy analog to say, aetherling, for control shells in commander.

The thing that really appeals to me about Sygg is how he turns removal into a strategy . And I really do like how being so cheap let's raise dead effects like oversold cemetery be used as protection. That's something I might do a little differently is try to do a fleshbag cemetery type thing. Esp if I can find a few guys who trigger Sygg cheaply.

I'm guessing our decks wind up with 70% or so of nonlands in common tho. He seems like a really fun commander for a long term relationship like ephara so thinking I might give it a go.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I decided to take a closer look at the mana base and try to limit the number of "colorless" lands in my decks and add in some of the newer lands. Specifically, the Battlebond land and Pathway that fits this deck. This came about from reading through the three color mana base thread and I thought it made sense to try these in two color decks too. So, here is what I am going to change:
12/02/20
Approximate Total Cost:

Now, this deck doesn't doesn't have a lot of colorless lands to start with, but I think Ghost Quarter and Field of Ruin are here to solve a problem that rarely comes up. That is, there aren't many lands that pose problems the rest of the deck can't deal with. While it is nice to deal with things like Field of the Dead and Gaea's Cradle, I don't think it comes up often enough to take up slots for them. Especially since this deck really wants two colored mana for Sygg and even a lot of other cards require two colored "pips" at least. I don't think this really changes the deck significantly, other than the few times Sygg gets down on time where he wouldn't with the lands being cut, but I would rather be sure of that consistency.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I played a game online against Torbran, Thane of Red Fell, Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire, and Sisay, Weatherlight Captain.

I started off with 4 lands, Disallow, Hero's Downfall, and Wipe Away so it wasn't a bad hand by any means though one land was Cabal Coffers. I got Sygg down on turn 2 and then just sort of waited.

Vaevictus ended up casting Dark Deal on turn 2 which wasn't all that bad for me. This allowed me to get Shadowmage Infiltrator on the field so I could attack for some cards. Sisay was Shrine tribal it seemed and they cast Sanctum of Shattered Heights which didn't do a lot to me since my creatures had high enough toughness (for the time being).

Torbran got down Torbran and Vaevictus got Urabrask the Hidden on the field. They then cast Vaevictus and made me sac the Infiltrator which got me a land. I ended up waiting a turn to see what else people would do as I had Toxic Deluge in hand but it felt premature to just fire it off. So, I waited a turn cycle (Sygg was targeted by Vaevictus) and I revealed a Swan Song.

I figured next turn was good to get rid of the board and recast Sygg, leaving up Swan Song. Which I used to counter a Purphoros, God of the Forge. Vaevictus then cast Warp World which is terrible for this deck. I had 8 permanents and ended up with 5. One of which was a Venser, Shaper Savant which didn't do a lot. This was basically game over for me. I only had 4 lands and no real board presence. Torbran came out of it pretty well and Vaevictus got a Kodama of the East Tree as well.

Torbran just ended up killing me the turn after and since they had Vicious Shadows they just killed the other 2 players pretty quickly.

Warp World sucks...

Not a whole lot to say about that. I still figured Purphoros was right to counter even if it did leave me open to Warp World. Things just happen that way sometimes.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Now that we have the entire set spoiled, as well as the Commander Decks, here are some of the cards that stand out to me for this deck:

Blue Cards

Bind the Monster - This is another one mana removal spell which works out well in a deck all about removal. I think I could potentially cut a black "destroy" spell for this. While it is easier to get rid of, or get around, one mana is a pretty big deal.

The Omenkeel - Another two drop that deals 3 damage with the help of Sygg. While not quite as good as Smuggler's Copter it still allows for some quick, early damage to get Sygg triggering. And it helps ensure land drops as the game goes on. Which is pretty important in the deck. Cosima is a fine plan B, but I think I will almost always cast it as the Vehicle in this deck.

Tales of the Ancestors - Another method of card draw that probably isn't all that necessary in this deck I like focusing on Sygg and small creatures to keep my hand full so I don't think adding in symmetrical draw is the way to go at this point.

Black Cards

Jarl of the Forsaken - It is a 3 power creature with Flash which is nice. And I can spread out the cost over a couple turns which is also nice. But I don't think I will often get to the point where the effect it has is going to be that worth it. The timing of these types of "kill" spells always bothers me as it narrows down the right timing a considerable amount. I think this is a pass for this deck.

Poison the Cup - I am really getting down on Foretell in general, but maybe this card is worth it? Yeah, it has the same sequencing problems, and it means I actually need to keep 4 mana up instead of 3 during the turn cycle I exile it face down, but after that it allows for a really cheap removal spell that also scries. I think I will try it out just to see what it does. I don't have high hopes, but I think it is worth a try.

Tergrid's Lantern - Makes an opponent lose 3 life or sac something. Doesn't seem too bad but being 4 mana is causing me to be a little reluctant on just slotting it in. Because they have a choice, it might not work the way I want all the time. But I can always target someone with the fewest creatures to give me better odds they just take the 3. The ability to untap it gives me a reasonable mana sink for the deck. I will evaluate the deck a little after other additions to see if it can support this card.

Multicolor Cards

King Narfi's Betrayal - Because my curve is so small, this could help rebuild my board after a wrath or something. Granted I can only get one card from my yard, but it still might be worth trying out. It is another card I will revisit after trying other additions though.

Colorless and Land Cards

Port of Karfell - A land that enters tapped which is not ideal, but it also helps me get back a creature later in the game which could help get some draw triggers going. My creatures aren't that big so there isn't much power behind this land, but I think the upside is worth entering tapped.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

So, with the new cards I mentioned above, I am potentially looking at the following changes:
01/24/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

I am cutting Murderous Cut and Hero's Downfall for the two new "removal" spells. Cut is generally pretty good since I can get it down to 1 mana, but I am going to try out the new ones now.

Insight is just because it is 4 mana and may or may not actually be needed. It is nice and it works well, but I might want to be doing other things. And Agent is mostly due to cost. I don't want to pay $65 to include a card that is already hitting against an archetype I am not a fan of so I might as well try something else.

The additions were mentioned above so those are the main reasons I am looking at including them.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I played a game against Birgi, God of Storytelling // Harnfel, Horn of Bounty, Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider, and Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger. I was able to cast Sygg on turn one thanks to Mox Diamond though he did very little for me that early. The rest of my hand wasn't spectacular and I hoped Preordain would get me out of it.

I saw Urborg and Bloodchief Ascension and accidentally stacked them wrong so I drew Urborg. This delayed Ascension but a turn since Kroxa had Liliana's Caress and would have triggered Ascension at least once.

But, I got it out next turn and just sat on the Toxic Deluge in my hand. Other people weren't doing a lot yet, but Vorinclex did have a Champion of Lambholt that was likely to be problematic and then they cast Vorinclex on turn 4.

Kroxa then cast their general followed by a Damnation which was good as it saved me my Deluge. I recast Sygg and passed and Birgi destroyed it. I didn't care a lot at the time, but I thought it was an interesting play as they used Mizzium Mortars for it which seemed like sort of a waste. But, it cut of my card draw so it isn't like it was an abysmal play.

They did cast Chandra, Flamecaller as well which was likely to be a problem. I was again stuck not doing much but Ascension was doing a lot of work thanks to Kroxa's deck and forcing people to discard cards. And of course the backface of Birgi allowed them to discard which triggered Caress which triggered Ascension. A lot of passives were going on here.

But, still not a lot being committed to the board which was good since I just had 2 counterspells in hand and the Deluge. I did have to spend one to counter Syr Konrad, the Grim. It was Mana Drain so I figured I might as well recast Sygg again since I had the "free" mana to do it.

And, of course, Birgi used Chandra's -X for X=3 and then copied it so they got rid of Sygg and Kroxa's Cavalier of Flame. Vorinclex followed up with a Vigor and then Kroxa started their turn. They were at 10 life due to a combination of Ascension, their own Phyrexian Arena and Mana Crypt. Then, they decided to cast Raiders' Wake into Memory Jar. And they cracked Memory Jar....

While the delayed trigger of Memory Jar was going to kill them thanks to Ascension they followed that up with Burning Inquiry. Which killed them faster (they were down to 5 at the time).

Now that they were dead, we didn't have to discard our hands which was good and bad. I really wanted to gain a bunch of life from other people but this hand was better than the one that was exiled.

From there the game was still over pretty quickly. I destroyed Vigor before my turn started and then I was slowly able to whittle away at the other players' life totals with Ascension and things like Smuggler's Copter.

Ascension was the clear winner in this game and while it really made a splash because it was paired with all of Kroxa's stuff, it is still the main reason I won this game.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Now with Strixhaven and Commander 21 being fully revealed, here are the cards I want to talk about for this deck. As I have been doing lately, this includes both sets together:

Blue Cards

Curate - Another Ponder/Preordain variant. I don't quite like it as much here but it could still be alright. I think I will stick with what I have for now though.

Ingenious Mastery - Drawing 3 cards for 3 mana can be really good. I don't think giving an opponent two Treasures and letting them Scry is a huge tradeoff. It is big, don't get me wrong, but it might be worth it. But, I might just need to dive deeper into things like Night's Whisper first before going in this direction.

Muse Vortex - This deck does not often want to cast an Instant or Sorceries at random for free. Which means that even the baseline of "draw X cards" is pretty bad since I am not guaranteed that many cards. I would be better off with something like Pull from Tomorrow

Resculpt - Mono blue removal only this one gets rid of Artifacts too? I think the slightly larger creature, when compared to Pongify and Hybridization, is absolutely worth it. I think I am going to swap one of this for this.

Black Cards

Baleful Mastery - Another "cheap" removal spell. An opponent drawing a card isn't the worst thing in the world, but isn't the best either. But seeing as how the baseline is effectively the same as Vraska's Contempt or Eat to Extinction, having the added bonus of casting it for cheaper is nice to have. I think I will try this over Contempt.

Callous Bloodmage - This is mostly for the flexibility but I think I tend to rely on Sygg for the card draw, as well as other creatures when they deal damage, that adding another isn't where I think I need to be. If the power was 3, it might be a tougher choice.

Keen Duelist - A Dark Confidant variant that (presumably) "draws" my opponent a card too actually isn't that bad. It can help trigger Sygg and gives me more cards in hand. Though, somewhat ironically, because this deck is so focused on the low mana curve, the trigger won't often have them lose more than 2 life.

I do say "presumably" because this card is worded pretty terribly in my opinion. It uses "you" and "your" a lot of times but everything about the card suggests this means we each reveal the top card of our own libraries, the other player loses life equal to the mana value of the card we reveal, and then we each get our own card in hand. But based on the fact that "you" and "your" is always supposed to refer to the controller of the ability, it makes it seem like both players reveal the top card of my library. Which is nonsense since that would be the same card.

Just a little templating rant I suppose :)

Plumb the Forbidden - I like cards that let me draw more cards but this deck just doesn't have a good enough concentration of creatures to make this any better than Village Rights in most cases. True, I can cast it without sacrificing a creature, but that still doesn't seem that great.

Sedgemoor Witch - This deck tends to have issues with life getting low and it casts a lot of instants and sorceries. So, a 3 power creature with Menace that also costs 3 life to remove means it will probably be able to trigger Sygg fairly often. And the tokens can help with that too as well as gaining life when they die. I definitely like this card in this deck and will try to find a spot for it.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

With the recent review, I have decided on trying the following changes:
4/12/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

The additions were mentioned above so there isn't much need to re-hash those reasons. As for the Cuts:

Bind the Monster is a swap for Resculpt. Contempt is a swap for Baleful Mastery. I think I might be a little high on removal so cutting back on one to make room makes sense.

The last cut was a bit more difficult to figure out. I thought abouut Araumi as well as yet another removal spell. But, in the end, Standard Bearer seemed like it made the most sense. I don't always have a bunch of creatures on the board so trying to draw cards off them dying is a bit hit or miss. Adding Keen Duelist hopefully makes up for this pretty well.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Here are my thoughts on the cards from Modern Horizons 2:

Blue Cards

Suspend - I am pretty big on 1 mana removal in this deck and this seems pretty good. It isn't quite as good as Pongify and Rapid Hybridization but I think there is room for it in the deck somewhere.

Svyelun of Sea and Sky - This is almost perfect for this deck. While it basically will never have Indestructible, it protects Sygg, it draws a card on attack (rather than damage), and its damage is 3 to trigger Sygg. There are a number of creatures that I think it is better than in this deck but I will see where I can find room for it.

Black Cards

Dauthi Voidwalker - I am not entirely sure on how much the exile and sacrifice ability will matter in this deck, but just having a 3 power "unblockable" creature seems like it could be good and the abilities just push it over the top. I think I will try this out here and see how much the grave hate ends up mattering.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Now that the holiday is over and the sets have been fully spoiled, here are my thoughts on the Adventures of the Forgetten Realms, and associated Commander, cards that are being released.

Blue Cards

Grazilaxx, Illithid Scholar - This seems like a pretty good card for this deck. It allows for additional card draw while also allowing me to bounce my creatures when blocked. And because my creatures tend to be on the small side, this can be helpful to get in the damage needed for Sygg without completely risking my creatures. And since it also has 3 power, which is the perfect number for Sygg, I think this moves into the "include" territory.

Soulknife Spy - This is another card that draws a card on combat plus its power is 3 which, again, is what Sygg wants. I might think on this to see if there is anything that makes sense to swap this with. 3 mana is where most of my others are at as it is so the benefit of triggering Sygg might not be enough depending on what I might want to cut.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

With the new release, and the fact I never updated with the last set, here are the changes I am going to try out in this deck:
7/15/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

Keen Duelist isn't online and I need something to make room anyway, Resculpt is nice but I think my other removal options are better for now.

Tergrid's Lantern being 4 mana isn't as good as I would like so lowering the curve and swapping it with a creature seems better.

Araumi is another that really ended up being underwhelming as my creatures just often aren't worth reanimating anyway. So I am just going to cut it for now.

Voidwalker ends up providing card advantage and is enough to trigger Sygg so I am looking forward to seeing whether or not it actually works well in this deck.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Here is my review/evaluation of cards from Midnight Hunt:

Blue Cards

Memory Deluge - Oof. For a deck that likes a low curve, 4 mana is a lot. I do like the card a lot but with all the other draw the deck has, I am not sure that it is needed. I like that I can re-use it later of course so maybe that is enough to push it over the edge into playable in this deck. I will think on it.

Triskaidekaphile - A mana sink for card draw is pretty good. It isn't awesome by any means but a cheap creature that allows for card draw later on when I have mana just sitting open (which happens a fair amount since this is meant to be a reactive deck) could be useful. And, of course, not having a max hand size is nice too.

Black Cards

Infernal Grasp - This seems excellent for 2 mana. The life loss isn't all that important so I think I try to find something to swap with this.

Slaughter Specialist - A 2 drop that is 3 power is good for this deck. I am not sure I care as much about the tokens the opponents get and they just fuel the last ability anyway. I might give this a try and see how it fares.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Here are some cuts I want to make in order to fit some of the new cards in this deck:
10/02/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

I want to get away from Mox Diamond as I have always had the lingering thought that I don't want to be discarding lands. It is a helpful card but I am not truly an aggressive deck and I think I can wait a turn cast things and just use the first turn to dig. I actually have liked the card but I need room and this is one cut that doesn't take away too much from the deck as a whole

Drag to the Underworld is still a good card, especially with Sygg and the other card I thought about cutting was Baleful Mastery. but I like the Exile over destroy so I am just going to swap these two destroy spells. Stunt Double is mainly to lower the curve and he doesn't really fit the theme of the deck anyway.

Infernal Grasp, Slaughter Specialist and Trisk were mentioned above

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I finally got a game in with this deck for the first time in a long time. It actually went fairly well even though I lost. I did make a couple questionable plays early on that might have done me in. I played against Gyome, Master Chef, Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, and Roalesk, Apex Hybrid.

Game Summary

I started off with Smuggler's Copter on turn 2 into Sygg and attack with Copter on turn 3. This was basically my entire play for the first 6 or 7 turns. I attacked, discarded and drew and then drew with Sygg. It worked out pretty well. We kept Sisay in check for the most part but I did draw a bit more attention to myself than I should have and I ended up being attacked quite a bit as the game wore on. Part of this was due to not having much for blockers but the other part was just that I kept countering and killing stuff. I don't think I could have done any different as I needed to move towards an end game, but it is a risk one takes with this deck.

Early on with my draws and discards I did end up throwing away Snapcaster Mage which, in hindsight, I shouldn't have done. Through all of my answers from counterspells to Cyclonic Rift to spot removal, it still wasn't enough to really get ahead enough. At the end, I was ahead on board until Sisay took their turn and just started dropping in enchantments and drawing with Enchantresses. A couple times they had Solitary Confinement on the field so we couldn't get them down enough anymore. That stalled us out a little against them and we were left with going after each other. Which I think was right but it did put us low after a while.

In the end, Sisay had far too many enchantments to deal with and they just drained us to death with some Extort triggers. It was actually quite a good game and I am still happy with the way the deck performed.

End of Summary


As mentioned, I threw away a couple cards early on due to looting and wanting to keep other cards in hand. I also eventually ran out of cards in hand because I couldn't keep my engines going. Part of this was due to Sygg and Copter being basically my entire board for far too long. I didn't get another creature that I could even do anything with for about 10 turns. It was Loyal Subordinate which was great and another was Sedgemoor Witch which I was happy to see. Beyond Snapcaster being discarded early, I also discarded Bloodchief Ascension which I think was a definite mistake. That would have been able to drain for quite a bit throughout the game and gain me some much needed life. At the time, I was focused on getting Sygg to trigger and I didn't think long game at that point.

Beyond these, I did find that I have basically nothing beyond Rift to deal with Enchantments. For some reason I thought I at least had Devastation Tide but I don't. I am wondering if I should do more with recursion to get back some instants and sorceries and if maybe I should go up at least one card that can deal with enchantments and artifacts a bit better. Another though is tossing in Timetwister or Commit // Memory to let me shuffle things back in and just try to reset that way. It would go well if I could also find a way to use Rift more. I am going to think on it and see what I might want to do.

I am not sure where that stuff fits in though. Targeted bounce might be too little for this deck so some of those might be enough to cut to make room? This is sort of a tempo deck but tempo is tough in EDH so just bouncing isn't enough to deal with stuff effectively.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

Answering the breadth of things people play nowadays with this kinda deck is really hard. I struggled a lot with my Inalla, Archmage Ritualist deck which had a lot of similarities, in that if I didn't get to a combo finish closing the game out was very hard, and they'd often just go over my removal/countermagic eventually.

There really are not a lot of combos that fit with Sygg (outside of Mindcrank) and I know you're not a huge fan of that avenue.

A few kinda high level thinks to think about:

1. enchantment decks are always going to be your absolute nemesis, and artifact decks probably aren't super far behind. Your out to these decks is basically playing Cyclonic Rift and trying to kill them.

Realistic avenues to dealing with those kinds of players without an infinite combo, that I can think of:

a) some kind of loop, like say Archaeomancer + Volrath's Stronghold. I do think that Volrath's Stronghold is significantly better than Winding Canyons at giving you an endgame win. I know your fondness for that land but it's much worse when a third of your deck is instants. You can add Riptide Laboratory which does some similar work. Sometimes just a second Rift is enough to get the job done.

Animate Dead + Kederekt Leviathan is a fairly good 'tempo' option that might also work; you animate it, then drop sygg and a couple dudes. Much stronger when you can defend it with counterspells, and you can theoretically set it up with Intuition by playing Necromancy as well.

b) A couple ways to seriously ruin someone, like Runechanter's Pike or Hatred might be worth considering - Hatred is a very, very effective tool at killing the one person whose strategy you can't deal with and is pretty hilarious too sometimes.

c) Bomb finishers like Consecrated Sphinx or Aminatou's Augury might be worth considering, or even Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Sire of Stagnation is another one I have liked before. Torment of Hailfire might even work OK if the deck forces long games, since it goes right over the top of a lot of strategies though you may struggle.

Bombs feel super inelegant in the deck to me though, which bugs me.

d) All Is Dust and Oblivion Stone are hamfisted but options.


--

All things considered I think I would (if it were my build) add Expedition Map, Archaeomancer or Mnemonic Wall and Volrath's Stronghold, and try that, but I would be tempted to add Hatred as well.

If the gloves were off entirely I'd probably play Mindcrank and Duskmantle Guildmage

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

You are absolutely right that I don't like combos so I want to avoid them as much as I can. I also agree that with the power level of things creeping up, this type of deck is harder and harder to pilot. I will admit that I don't really mind that though. It might push the winrate down but I do believe this deck is one of the most skill-testing decks I have because of that very reason. I can't just fire off a wrath like Hour of Revelation and start over. Rift can do that but, as mentioned, it is a single card and can't be counted on for everything. Plus, it is only bounce; it gives players a chance to still rebuild. So I like it more for the idea that is actually tests my skills as a player in terms of threat assessment. I wouldn't even say I get it right all the time but it changes the game a little. Anyway...
pokken wrote:
2 years ago
a) some kind of loop, like say Archaeomancer + Volrath's Stronghold. I do think that Volrath's Stronghold is significantly better than Winding Canyons at giving you an endgame win. I know your fondness for that land but it's much worse when a third of your deck is instants. You can add Riptide Laboratory which does some similar work. Sometimes just a second Rift is enough to get the job done.

Animate Dead + Kederekt Leviathan is a fairly good 'tempo' option that might also work; you animate it, then drop sygg and a couple dudes. Much stronger when you can defend it with counterspells, and you can theoretically set it up with Intuition by playing Necromancy as well.
I am glad you brought up Winding Canyons because I forgot to mention it above. I had a point in time fairly early where I had it in hand and I just pitched it. As I did so, I thought the same thing you just mentioned. My deck is not creature heavy and there isn't a huge justification for it. I like the idea of the swap with Volrath's Stronghold so I might just try that.

Archaeomancer was also my first thought for recursion. I was hoping for an Instant or Sorcery so I could use Spellseeker and Mystical Tutor to help me get to them but perhaps this means I really should just throw Demonic Tutor on the deck. I don't like unconditional tutors but this deck might warrant it. And Riptide Laboratory with Snapcaster, Archaeomancer, and Spellseeker can be kind of nice too. I am sure I have some other land I wouldn't mind cutting.

I also thought about Yawgmoth's Will in the deck to help with the recursion aspect. It isn't perfect but it can help.

I did think about Kederekt Leviathan as an option as well. Again, not perfect but far from the worst. I think Animate Dead and Necromancy have the problem of being mostly dead except with Leviathan. My creatures tend to run fairly small so I am not sure I would often care enough about reanimating anything else. I can keep it in mind, but this is a tougher sell for me.
b) A couple ways to seriously ruin someone, like Runechanter's Pike or Hatred might be worth considering - Hatred is a very, very effective tool at killing the one person whose strategy you can't deal with and is pretty hilarious too sometimes.
I could get behind Hatred though I think both fit a weird spot in the deck since they do require me to go aggro against a single player. Maybe that is alright though? I just don't know that I will often have the life for Hatred to work right when I need it to. Pike seems decent for something in the later game to help close things out though without having to worry about life.
c) Bomb finishers like Consecrated Sphinx or Aminatou's Augury might be worth considering, or even Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. Sire of Stagnation is another one I have liked before. Torment of Hailfire might even work OK if the deck forces long games, since it goes right over the top of a lot of strategies though you may struggle.

Bombs feel super inelegant in the deck to me though, which bugs me.
I agree that bombs just don't seem right in this deck. It is all about the mana curve and my "bombs" really just come down to Sublime Epiphany. But, that might be the thing: I might need these to actually close out games. If I treat this as a normal control deck, they tend to have bombs to close things out and I just don't have them. I think I might like Sire among those the most. It is powerful, but not oppressive. Since I do have Coffers+Urborg, it might make sense for Torment of Hailfire as well. I will have to think on that as well.
d) All Is Dust and Oblivion Stone are hamfisted but options.


--

All things considered I think I would (if it were my build) add Expedition Map, Archaeomancer or Mnemonic Wall and Volrath's Stronghold, and try that, but I would be tempted to add Hatred as well.

If the gloves were off entirely I'd probably play Mindcrank and Duskmantle Guildmage
I agree on Stone, but All is Dust is somewhat enticing. It gets rid of a lot of stuff I have trouble with. And being a Sorcery, it plays a bit more into the thought of recursion and the things I am trying to add to make Rift work better. It doesn't do great against Artifacts of course, but I don't mind the idea of it. It isn't at the top of my list but I can certainly lean in that direction.

You and your Map :P But I could see adding Archaeomancer and Volrath's Stronghold at least at first. I don't mind Map but I really need to find room for things and I do like some of the other options mentioned as well.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

You can almost certainly cut a land for map which makes it easiest. I'd cut Bojuka bog likely but open. I know I'm a shill for it but it's because you and I are of very similar bents about having sweet land packages.

I think you're interpreting everything pretty well. It is really fun to win with these kinds of decks. What I'm finding these days is you really have to kill people who will go over top of you early and having something like hatred to just kill exactly the enchantment deck can get it done.

I do think you're right to play some slight changes first like volraths v canyons and archaeomancer.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I think I am going with maybe a bigger swath of changes than I probably should but based on the suggestions above, here is what I am thinking:
10/23/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

Port entering tapped and cost so much for reanimation is the main reason I cut it. Stronghold just seems better anyway. Winding Canyons was talked about above but I don't think it quite fits the deck. Triskaidekaphile is still reasonable I think but ultimately isn't all that powerful. Kefnet is a better draw source. Suspend and Wipe Away are more cuts to potentially get away from bounce as an option and Cutpurse is just because there have been so many better options printed that I don't think this is needed anymore.

The two lands are added because of their ability to help me abuse the few creatures I do have. Demonic Tutor is more of an acquiescence to the idea that I might need it to really be able to hold my own in certain games. I thought of Vampiric Tutor but putting it into my hand is often better than needing to draw it later.

Archaeomancer is the main addition to re-use my instants and sorceries. I had it in the deck before and the concern was over the lack of ways to reuse it. Adding in the two lands to do just that might give it the boost it needs. Commit was also in the deck and the interaction with Dark Confidant and the fact that I never seemed to want to cast Memory were the reasons to cut it. Neither of these have really changed so this might end up being cut again but I think having some way to shuffle things back in might be warranted and this one is a "removal" spell as well.

Sire is a way to help keep my hand full while also giving me something of a bomb to play. It is worse than Consecrated Sphinx at the same mana value but this is less likely to put a target on my back and the additional power/toughness could be relevant. This decision over Sphinx though is really just more of a way to ensure I don't become public enemy number 1. While I might draw close to the same number of cards as Sphinx, it is more restrictive and thus less of a concern for people. At least, I think it might be. If I find I am getting targeted hard for it I might switch to the Sphinx anyway or just scrap the idea altogether.

And, lastly, I think I am going to try pokken's suggestion of cutting Bog for Map. Bog was close to the land I was going to cut for one of the two new ones anyway based mostly on the idea that it enters tapped and because it doesn't often seem too relevant. There are obviously some games where "I could have won" if I draw it, but I think those tend to be few and far between.

I know this is a larger change than I hinted at making above but I really want to try some of the new cards and try a slightly different change in philosophy regarding bounce at the same time. I might roll back some changes but I will see how these go first. I was probably right the first time to try more incremental changes but I don't get a ton of opportunity to play so I am hoping one large change I can scale back is more efficient than 2 or 3 small changes.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I think Commit // Memory is probably incorrect. The more I think about it I think your previous stance of not playing wheels in these kinda decks is right. If you *were* to run a wheel, Time Spiral is probably the one I'd play first, but even that is really questionable.

One thing that didn't occur to me until just now is that this is like, 110%, a Sensei's Divining Top deck. Likely to superbly overperform at finding stuff given how much redundancy you have. Yeah it's a bit of a mana sink but you can wait til the last minute most of the time unless you're digging for lands. I think I would try that before Commit // Memory - obviously they don't do the same thing I guess.

Top is one of those cards it's easy to "autoinclude" get too much of but I almost always play it as the third cantrip in my control shells personally and it's still always very good.

Does open the door to Devastation Tide being quite a bit better too if you decide to try that at some point.

(for concrete recs on your changes, you might like Sensei's Divining Top + Devastation Tide more than Demonic Tutor + Commit // Memory in this package of changes, but I'm excited to hear how it goes either way :)

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I got another game in online with the changes above. This was against Garth One-Eye, God-Eternal Bontu, and Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker & Reyhan, Last of the Abzan partners

Game Summary

I started off with 2 swamps, Smuggler's Copter, Dauthi Voidwalker, and some blue spells. My thought was that I could use Copter and Sygg to dig for blue mana. I started off with Voidwalker though just so I could get the grave hate in and because I drew a land (another Swamp) to tide me over. Bontu fired off a Toxic Deluge to kill it which seemed very premature. But I just followed up with Copter and Sygg and drew another Swamp for my land.

Partners were going off a little bit and had a 6/6 Ishai coming at me and had cast Shalai, Voice of Plenty to protect it. So, I blew up Shalai with Slaughter Pact, they tried to counter with Heroic Intervention which I countered with Fierce Guardianship and then used Infernal Grasp to kill Ishai. I was able to keep my life total up and set Partners back by a bit.

From here I just kept swinging with Copter and finally drew a blue source. It entered tapped (Fetid Pools) but that was fine. Next turn I cast Jace, Vryn's Prodigy // Jace, Telepath Unbound and drew another land top keep things going. I wasn't able to use the back side of Jace for a long time (I was able to transform him no problem) due to The Immortal Sun. However, thanks to the Immortal Sun, everyone just kind of let Jace be so once Sun was gone, I still had Jace.

During all of this, I still couldn't commit much to the board though. Sygg had been destroyed before Jace came down so Copter was offline. I only had counter spells in hand but was drawing lands which got me the blue mana I needed. I basically just sat back and let the rest of the players fight it out. Partners were quickly establishing themselves as the threat so I was left alone for the most part. They still got me down to 22 life but I wasn't being ganged up on too hard.

However, I was able to start getting some things together and was able to get Loyal Subordinate down and start draining everyone. I still kept going after Partners during this and eventually got them down to 1 life. On the turn I did, I cast Spellseeker to get to Cyclonic Rift but Bontu, for some reason, decided to target me with their Altar of Dementia. Maybe they wanted me dead or were fine with Partners being where they were. But, whatever the reason, they actually managed to hit my Rift. So I just grabbed Mission Briefing and then waffled on what to do. I only had 7 mana open so I couldn't Briefing into Rift. Instead, I just cast Demonic Tutor for Damnation and wrathed the board.

Partners ended up scooping before I did all this though but I still needed to get rid of the other boards. I did lose a lot but I have 5 cards in hand to their 1 and 3 cards so I figured it was right. At some point, Bontu sacrificed all their lands to their commander and scooped. So, it was just me and Garth left.

They still had Sun so Jace was turned off. At this point, I was at 18 life but their board didn't have much beyond Garth and some Artifacts/Enchantments. They attacked me once and I swung into them a couple times. I used Commit // Memory on the Sun and ended up using removal on Garth to clear the way for my attackers. They ended up not being able to recover much and they scooped after I was able to keep knocking their life down.

End of Summary


Loyal Subordinate was huge in this game as it really kept the pressure on everyone. Commit was good but, to pokken's points above, I don't think I did ever want to cast Memory. I could have a few times and I think it could have helped but I think it would have helped Garth more than me. Even if it wouldn't have, it still felt unnecessary. I still like the idea of it but perhaps I am overreacting to one "bad" game where I lost access to certain spells but adding in things like Archaeomancer and Stronghold are probably enough to handle those situations. So I might just want to cut it again. It did help here to get rid of the Sun but basically any bounce would have done the same.

I generally avoid Top simply because of the play patterns it encourages ("end of your turn, top", "beginning of my upkeep, top", "in response to you sneezing, top") but I can't deny how effective it is likely to be in this deck. Top plus Tide might be the missing key to really getting things off the ground. Granted, this last game was a victory but there was so much that I couldn't do and I only won thanks to being the least threatening player on board. I would like to ensure I don't have to rely on that every time.

So, it is probably worthwhile to cut Commit//Memory again and slot in Top. I might also retool my mana base and swap some Swamps for Islands. I still think I want Demonic Tutor though and it can be very powerful with Spellseeker to really get me out of a jam. I will see if I can figure out another cut to make for Devastation Tide as I would like to try that with Top too.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I have gotten behind in set updates again but this set did have a bit for quite a few of my decks. Here are my thoughts for this deck:

Blue Cards

Consuming Tide - I have been looking for other "mass bounce" spells and I think this might be one worth looking at. It does let everyone keep their most powerful permanent on the board but it also always costs 4 compared to Devastation Tide costing 5 with maybe getting it to cost 2. It also potentially draws me up to 3 cards (though, really, I would probably draw at most 1). I might give it a try just to see how much of a drawback it is to leave opponents with 1 permanent but I do need someway of dealing with troublesome permanents and this is a reasonable spell at a good cost.

Mischievous Catgeist - I love these types of effects for this deck and I definitely like that this one is 2 mana. It doesn't help trigger Sygg very well but a 2 drop that can draw cards is pretty good. I think I end up finding room for it (probably over Triskadekaphile).

Black Cards

Falkenrath Forebear - Cheaper 3 power creatures always get a second look in this deck but this one is just outside of playable. It does probably hit fairly often and it can reanimate itself (as long as it dealt damage twice) but 3 mana is a tough sell for something that is "only" a beater.

Graf Reaver - Here is one that could be decent. A 2 mana 3/3 is nothing to sneeze at though the damage it deals to us isn't nothing. I am not sure how often we really need to straight up destroy a planeswalker either. It is one of the few card types (beyond creatures) that the deck can sort of already deal with anyway. I think the damage is enough to shy away for now.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Here are some changes I am making for the deck:
12/15/2021
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Swamp and Island are just swaps. I decided to go up an Island due to my deck becoming more and more blue. It might make sense to go up even another Island after this.

I wanted to cut Triskadekaphile for Catgeist but I already cut it in the last round of cuts. And I really could not come up with anything else I wanted to cut. Maybe Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow or Shadowmage Infiltrator but I still like them as part of the core theme of the deck. So, even though I never really got to test things out, I just cut Sire. I might find a way to add it in again later but it is really high in the curve and it might be a mistake to even try it due to that.

I mentioned Tide above and I think it is a worthwhile include. I did not go for the Top+Tide package here mostly because of the issue of not really knowing what to cut yet. And Tide is a bit more consistent anyway. Based on Pokken's comments to Commit/Memory and my own second guessing myself on it, I just took that back out.

While I don't mind getting a deck "tuned" which is where I think this deck is (as much as I can get it anyway), I might be getting too attached to certain cards so I might really have to rethink certain ones if I ever want to actually add new cards.

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