Sygg, River Cutthroat - Removal.dec

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

I played this deck last night and it performed very well. I played against God-Eternal Rhonas, Erebos, God of the Dead, and Tishana, Voice of Thunder (I think).

This time, I kept a hand that had 4 lands, Dimir Cutpurse (the big reason for keeping it) and Drag to the Underworld. I don't remember the 7th card.

I was able to get Sygg down turn 2, Cutpurse turn 3, and swing on turn 4. Kind of slow considering the ramp I added, but not bad. This led to me drawing 2 cards every turn, and needing to discard a bunch as things went on. But, it ensured my land drops and kept my hand full.

I was able to keep Tishana at bay with some well timed counterspells and used my removal for the Tatyova, Benthic Druid they managed to land. I also ended up blowing up Erebos's Syr Konrad, the Grim because it was annoying and I didn't like my life total slowly being drained away.

At one point, Rhonas cast Song of the Dryads on Sygg and I never felt the need to get rid of it. Being that I could only bounce it anyway, it wasn't really worth it. Luckily, about 6 turns later, Erebos killed them anyway so I got Sygg back. Until then, I just leaned on Cutpurse and Mindblade Render to keep my hand full.

I did draw an Ashiok, Nightmare Muse at one point but chose not to cast it as I didn't want to tap out at the time. I wanted to leave up interaction as I had a couple Instants I wanted available.

Eventually I got a board with Sygg, Mindblade Render, Cutpurse, Venser, Shaper Savant, Tymaret, Chosen from Death, Murderous Rider (after using the Adventure), and Brazen Borrower (after using the Adventure). I was able to pretty effectively beat down with just these creatures as I had enough in hand to really stop anyone from developing their board so I was able to slowly win.

The deck played much better this time around and I think it hinged almost entirely (at least in the early game) on Dimir Cutpurse. Now, Mindblade Render would have been decent as well, but Cutpurse being 2 power was important to allow Sygg to trigger as well. This allowed the deck to keep moving. I really need a 2 power 2 drop that draws me a card :)

Ashiok and Archaeomancer are likely the next cuts. Ashiok is high on the curve and doesn't do a lot when I am too far behind, and isn't needed when I am ahead. On an even board, they get me over the hump, but I am not sure that is any better than sandbagging and then just wrathing things away as my opponents get ahead of me.

Archaeomancer is always among the first cards I discard when I get over 7 cards in hand. His ability makes sense in this deck but I think I have drawn him in every game but one and cast him in 0 games. I am not sure what this should be instead, but I am thinking 'Mancer isn't the right card.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

You might like jace, vryn's prodigy over arch, since he can help push damage through by negating chump blockers (sometimes) and is cheaper. Since you don't have any real blink, archaeomancer isn't going to be a lot better than a flipped JVP at using cards - although it is worse with countermagic of course. But you just may not need more of the effect since you've got snap and mission briefing already.

Another way to push damage might be better though.

dark confidant seems like it would fit well too.

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Post by materpillar » 4 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
4 years ago
Ashiok and Archaeomancer are likely the next cuts. Ashiok is high on the curve and doesn't do a lot when I am too far behind, and isn't needed when I am ahead. On an even board, they get me over the hump, but I am not sure that is any better than sandbagging and then just wrathing things away as my opponents get ahead of me.

Archaeomancer is always among the first cards I discard when I get over 7 cards in hand. His ability makes sense in this deck but I think I have drawn him in every game but one and cast him in 0 games. I am not sure what this should be instead, but I am thinking 'Mancer isn't the right card.
Smuggler's Copter looks like a card this deck would really want. You can play it on 2, and then Sygg on 3 and use sygg to crew it and it'll singlehandedly trigger sygg for you. Plus looking and sorcery speed wrath immunity.

Gonti, Lord of Luxury might be a decent card to try. Gets you advantage. Deathtouch is a good rattlesnake against big stuff and can let you swing into mostly empty boards.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

Can confirm Copter was always surprisingly good when I played it and does make great sense for Sygg. good idea :)

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Post by Dragonlover » 4 years ago

Have you considered the Ixalan Dark Confidant variant? Should help trigger Sygg if nothing else.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
You might like jace, vryn's prodigy over arch, since he can help push damage through by negating chump blockers (sometimes) and is cheaper. Since you don't have any real blink, archaeomancer isn't going to be a lot better than a flipped JVP at using cards - although it is worse with countermagic of course. But you just may not need more of the effect since you've got snap and mission briefing already.

Another way to push damage might be better though.

dark confidant seems like it would fit well too.
I like both of these suggestions. Jace isn't too bad as it is, though makes for a somewhat poor two drop in the deck. Looting is decent, but I prefer straight draw and his only real benefit is the minus ability for is Planeswalker side. I will obviously tick him up to make sure I can use him again, but that is slow. Maybe the looting on the creature side is enough to warrant him though. Which of course ties into Copter (which I go into below).

Dark Confidant on the other hand seems great. And would give me a reason to finally pick up a Judge foil :) My curve is relatively low, and gets lower with getting rid of Ashiok, so I don't have to worry quite as much about taking a lot of damage. I will have to see though as I used to find the deck really getting beat down and I don't have a lot of life gain in the deck. I don't want to so far that I just start straight up losing to it. But, I think it is worth the risk.
materpillar wrote:
4 years ago
Smuggler's Copter looks like a card this deck would really want. You can play it on 2, and then Sygg on 3 and use sygg to crew it and it'll singlehandedly trigger sygg for you. Plus looking and sorcery speed wrath immunity.

Gonti, Lord of Luxury might be a decent card to try. Gets you advantage. Deathtouch is a good rattlesnake against big stuff and can let you swing into mostly empty boards.
I really like Copter here. There are so any upsides to it in this deck that I can't think of any good reason not to slot it in somewhere. The Looting helps make a better hand and the damage to trigger Sygg is very helpful.

Gonti, on the other hand is just over the threshold of me not wanting to put it in. It relies on my opponents' decks too much, though that isn't a huge concern. But 4 mana is. As I lean into Dark Confidant as an option, I think I put a larger focus on keeping my curve lower. And, being only 2 power means he isn't enough to trigger Sygg on his own. With the Deathtouch, I can see him getting in pretty regularly even when there are blockers, but 2 is just 1 shy of what I need. I will keep him in mind, but I think I will avoid him for now.
Dragonlover wrote:
4 years ago
Have you considered the Ixalan Dark Confidant variant? Should help trigger Sygg if nothing else.

Dragonlover
I hadn't considered Dark Confidant or Ruin Raider until now. I like Dark Confidant since he comes down earlier and "draws" me a card at the beginning of the turn. I like Ruin Raider since it has 3 power. But, getting the card in the end step actually hurts it pretty severely. It is already kind of annoying that Sygg is in the End Step as I can't cast the card that turn or play it if it is a land. I will keep it in mind, but I think there is just enough there I don't like to leave it off for now.
Last edited by WizardMN 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by pokken » 4 years ago

If you're looking for some on theme life gain that also draws cards, I forgot about twilight prophet but it seems absolutely perfect for this deck. Gain some life, trigger Sygg -- with Sygg out represents 2 cards a turn and some lifegain, which is pretty powerful.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

pokken wrote:
4 years ago
If you're looking for some on theme life gain that also draws cards, I forgot about twilight prophet but it seems absolutely perfect for this deck. Gain some life, trigger Sygg -- with Sygg out represents 2 cards a turn and some lifegain, which is pretty powerful.
I used to run Twilight Prophet in the initial iteration of the deck and was one of the final cuts I made for this one. I am going through the deck now and trying to find cards to cut and I think I am at 4 cards to cut but only 3 to add so Twilight Prophet might be the other add to put back in.

It has the same issue as Gonti with being a 4 drop, but because it "draws" me multiple cards and gains me life, it might be a reasonable curve topper. Especially if I remove 4 drops for it.

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Post by Dragonlover » 4 years ago

Twilight Prophet is the card is the card I was trying to remember in my post.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Dragonlover wrote:
4 years ago
Twilight Prophet is the card is the card I was trying to remember in my post.

Dragonlover
Oh, well there we go. I tried to find something like Dark Confidant and found Ruin Raider which is pretty close. Damn Ixalan block for having two creatures that are close to Dark Confidant :)

Then, I would agree with that suggestion (and pokken's suggestion).

So, with the recent discussions, I think I am solidly on the plan on adding the following:
To make room, I am looking at the following to cut:
Blacklance Paragon got a pass up until now for being a removal spell and a good way to trigger Sygg. But, as I need to find room for more, I don't think triggering Sygg is as relevant and it then becomes a bad removal spell.

Rankle is a 4 drop that I was already questioning before due to the symmetry of it. As I ran through different scenarios, none seemed that great in a lot of cases, except maybe the Discard.

Ashiok was touched on above. Being a 5 drop meant he needed to have a bigger impact on the game than I think he was having. The bounce effect was decent but most of the time they could just recast it next turn which meant I didn't really get anywhere. The biggest drawback to this is the Sorcery timing of it. An Instant allowing me to time things right would be fine. Which brings me to:

Commit//Memory is more of a fear of Dark Confidant to be honest, but I am finding that I never want to cast Memory anyway. I want my card advantage to be ahead of everyone else so making us all equal again sets me back considerably. Which means it was really here for Commit which is good, but not good enough at 4 mana. I am thinking I might almost want Unsubstantiate or Boomerang, Boomerang would likely get the nod for dealing with more permanents. I am not sure if either one is right, but I don't think Commit is right.

And, finally, Archaeomancer. This was touched on above but the lack of being able to repeat it means it loses some of its utility.

So, now I just need one more addition to the deck and I think I want it to be a removal/answer spell of some sort. I am contemplating adding in another wrath or mass bounce spell to deal with overdeveloped board states. Engulf the Shore was good for being an Instant. Maybe going back to pokken's suggestion of Devastation Tide is reasonable though I would like to have it be an Instant which is why I might just go with Evacuation.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

Based on the previous discussion, here is what I have decided to change:
03/13/20
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The only one not really discussed above was Evacuation. I decided to go with that as it is a reasonable way to "sweep" the board and my stuff is relatively cheap as it is so I should be able to rebuild relatively easily. I chose this over Devastation Tide since I can always cast this as an Instant which I think is preferable than trying to set up Tide to be cast as an Instant.

The others were discussed above and are mainly just more ways to keep my hand full. They are cheap, help trigger Sygg when Sygg is out (not so much Jace I suppose), and offer a bit of card selection to ensure I hit my land drops or throw away lands I don't need if that is what I need to do.

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Post by WizardMN » 4 years ago

With the new sets out, I wanted to go over some of the cards I am looking at for potential includes. This won't be as in depth as my Primer evaluations in terms of all possible cards. This is just for ones that have a higher chance of actually getting into the deck though there are a few that I think are right on the edge but likely won't make it:

Fierce Guardianship - A free counter to protect Sygg as I might need or to be able to really extend with my board while having some sort of protection in hand is great. This is a deck that expects the general to be on the field at all times so the card makes sense.

Deadly Rollick - And, of course, the black free spell. The deck is all about removal and free removal is already present. But, this is the best form of free removal the deck could possibly have.

Ukkima, Stalking Shadow - Can't be blocked and a dies trigger to deal damage are pretty good to help get me to the 3 damage needed to make an opponent lose 3 life. However, 2 is obviously not 3. Which means I still need to make up that damage somewhere else. If this was on a 2 drop is might get a pass (though maybe not) but for 3 mana and not really any sort of guarantee on damage or a card draw trigger, it isn't worth it.

Sea-Dasher Octopus - This is a pretty decent card considering I have a lot of reactionary spells in this deck. It allows me to hold up mana but then also flash this in at the end of someone's turn. It might only cost 2 mana (which is the sweet spot) and it draws a card on its own without needing to trigger Sygg.

There isn't an easy cut for this though. Maybe Dimir Cutpurse though the discard is really nice. This could be the reason to get rid of Burnished Hart finally. I added a bunch of mana rocks and my curve is pretty low as it is. Hart might not be doing enough here.

Thieving Otter - I included this just because I thought it was cute :) It has a good effect that I like but 3 mana, 2 power isn't good enough. As shown above, there are better options at 3 mana and lower.

Call of the Death-Dweller - Because of the very low curve, this could be a decent card to help rebuild or just get some value creatures back in the mid to late game. It is a Sorcery which is understandable, but disappointing. But being able to get back any 2 of my creatures that can draw me cards on damage could help get me back into a game I might be falling behind in. I am not sure on this one though.

Slitherwisp - This one stands out because it is 3 power, it is 3 mana, and it has Flash, It also has a card draw trigger but that might not trigger too often as I only have 5 creatures with Flash as it is, though the Octopus above would make a 6th. I like it but it probably wouldn't trigger enough to be worth it.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

So, I have decided to try out these cards from the list above:
I went into more detail above as to why these seem to make sense. Call of the Death-Dweller I was on the fence about but so I just need to come up with the cuts. I am thinking of the following:

Burnished Hart - As mentioned, this may not be doing enough as it is. It is slow and doesn't really advance the game plan. And since this deck isn't a reanimator deck, I only get one use out of him. Even with the addition of Call of the Death-Dweller I would most likely want something better.

Solemn Simulacrum - This falls into the same idea as Hart. I would rather draw cards and try to hit my land drops (or ramp with the Rocks I have) than try to take my turn 4 off to ramp.

Mystic Confluence - In the interest of trying to lower the curve some more, I think this card is worth cutting. It really only ends up being either a triple bounce spell or just an extra card or two and I don't really need cards. I am going to keep Silumgar's Command at this spot for now because I feel it is a bit more flexible in what it can handle.

Summary Dismissal - I had given a legitimate consideration to cutting Dream Eater but I still like the card and think it has its place as a curve topper for a number of reasons. Instead, I am looking to just swap a "counterspell" for Fierce Guardianship. Guardianship is much worse in what it can actually do, but being "free" makes it much more valuable to have in hand. I also don't think I have ever really used Dismissal to counter any abilities or exile an uncounterable spell. I was kind of torn between this and Insidious Will but Will has some other cool/fun uses.
05/24/20
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

With the full spoiler of Core 2021 and Jumpstart, I have decided to finally post some of my thoughts on new cards. I will separate then by color but Jumpstart and Core 2021 cards will be lumped together.

Sygg didn't really get a lot of new toys with this set either. I comment on a few below for a few different reasons but I don't think most can make the cut based almost entirely on mana cost.

Here is what I can see as being potentials:

Blue Cards

Discontinuity - Ending the turn is great to help keep us alive but there are likely very few instances where we want to end it on our turn. Which means this is basically going to be a Time Stop in every case. Since I am not running Time Stop now, I don't see the need to add it in.

Ghostly Pilferer - This is a 2 drop that allows me to draw cards (at a cost). Not as good as other options. The trigger to draw a card from a spell being cast is unlikely to happen too often. The unblockable ability would be the main reason to include the card as it would add in a bit of rummaging (basically) with Sygg *if* its power was 3. Since it is only 2, that ability doesn't come into play very often since I still need to attack with something else. I think this has the makings of a card this deck wants, but it is just a little off on a few things to make it a card I want to include.

Sublime Epiphany - I am really starting to come around on this card. It just does so much that I think it is worth a spot in the deck. There is a worthwhile comparison to Mystic Confluence or Silumgar's Command in that it is modal and the modes can sort of replicate what the others do. Now, Confluence allows multiples of the same mode so I can bounce 3 things or draw 3 cards (the counterspell option is underwhelming if I have to choose it more than once, but I can). So, if I wanted to cut something, it might be the Command. Or, I can do what I am thinking of doing in Ephara and just swap it for Summary Dismissal. For an extra 2 mana, I think the versatility is worth it. It raises the curve a little but I think it ends up playing better than Dismissal. But, either way, I think it is worth a spot somewhere, even for the cost.

Teferi, Master of Time - Again, taking a cue from my comments in Ephara, I think Teferi ends up fitting into the spot Dream Eater currently takes. It doesn't give me a blocker like Dream Eater but still "removes" something. He also only removes creatures but the added looting ability and the mana cost (which offsets the addition of Epiphany above anyway) lead me to believe that he can be a pretty good card in this deck. Protecting him comes down more to using spells rather than creatures to block, but I think that is fine.

Teferi's Ageless Insight - I like this card here. I have done so much in the past few rounds of changes to try to get more card draw out of the deck that just adding in something that doubles card draw can't be too bad. I never thought about adding in Alhammarret's Archive due to the mana cost but maybe 4 mana is the right spot for this (giving up the life gain part of it).

Black Cards

Liliana's Standard Bearer - 3 power is excellent here. I want to start with that since it is very relevant for this deck. The effect is also pretty good as well in that it gives me a way to refill my hand even when my board is cleared which then hopefully draws me into more stuff to commit to the board.

Thieves' Guild Enforcer - I include this here because it is a 1 mana, 3 power creature. The milling is irrelevant, except to get an opponent to 8 cards in the grave. It seems decent but probably not fast enough to get to 3 power. Though now that I think about it, it seems like a worse Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration for this deck. I wonder if Delver could be good as a 1 drop that can still trigger Sygg. I do have 38 Instants and/or Sorceries. I think if I want the Enforcer, I would probably just want Delver first. I might have to think on that a little more.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I decided to get a game in online and I didn't do a whole lot. It was against The Scarab God, Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, and Gishath, Sun's Avatar.

God got down an early Necropotence which they spent a lot of life on. They also lost a fair bit of life to Mana Crypt which came into play huge at the end. I countered their early Rhystic Study and tried to counter Rooftop Storm but they had a Mana Drain.

I had actually wanted to leave these open for Sisay and Gishath as they can get out of hand but Sisay didn't have all her colors yet and Gishath was still a little off. Until they dropped in a Mana Flare anyway. They did this early and then, for some reason, scooped on my turn after getting one turn with Flare. Which I was fine with. This deck can't keep up with massive amounts of mana like that.

I never got Sygg to trigger since I couldn't keep him around. I had to sac him to an early Liliana, Dreadhorde General and then a Spelltwined Reality Shift got him later (after getting Sisay the first time. As part of that Spelltwine, they recast Sisay's The Elderspell which caused Sisay to scoop for some reason.

I had a Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration on the board for 2 turns without transforming before they killed it with Zombie Apocalypse. Right before they cast it, they cast Grave Titan and sacrificed it not realizing it wasn't a Zombie. I am not totally sure this cost them the game as they were at 5 life as it was with a Mana Crypt still going. They won the next flip and went to 2 off Necroptence but didn't seem to get anything.

I cast Twilight Prophet and they scooped. I would have revealed Solemn Simulacrum off of it.

It was a weird game. I couldn't get anything going but two early scoops by 2 players and the Zombies player paying a lot of life just kind of gave me the win by default.

I also built the deck with Boomerang and Delver of Secrets // Insectile Aberration becauseBrazen Borrower // Petty Theft is $25 online and Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow is $30! I paid enough for the Ancient Tomb that I figured I would cheap out on those. And I like the idea of Delver if I could actually get him to transform.

Either way, not a good or bad game; just weird. Since I never got any draw engines going, I doubt I would have won had Sisay stuck around but oh well.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I had a game with this deck this night on MTGO against Shalai, Voice of Plenty, Lurrus of the Dream-Den, and Sisay, Weatherlight Captain (Shrine Tribal).

I started off with not doing a whole lot except cast Sygg. I did counter an early Smothering Tithe with Undermine which drew me a card and some early attacks went at my opponents which also drew me cards. For the most part though, I just let the game play out.

Shalai didn't do a whole lot beyond getting Blinding Angel and Shalai out. Lurrus had an early Stonehewer Giant and they kept getting different equipment. Nothing really bad luckily but there was still a lot of it. I blew up Sisay after they cast it before they could activate her but they had a couple Shrines down. I bounced Honden of Night's Reach and Lurrus destroyed Honden of Seeing Winds. That left them with the Sanctum of Fruitful Harvest, They never did cast Sisay again.

I slowly built up a board. I didn't want to over-commit because I had a Toxic Deluge in hand I wanted to cast at some point. I was just trying to find the right time so I could also get Sisay's Nezahal, Primal Tide. Shalai attacked me a few times with the Blinding Angel to stop me from attacking with Shadowmage Infiltrator to draw cards. I took a few hits this way since my Twilight Prophet was putting in decent work to give me extra cards. It only triggered Sygg once (though would have again at the end of the game as well).

At one point, Sisay got down Sanctum of All so I bounced it. I left their black Shrine alone even though I probably should have countered it but giving them free shrines was not something I could deal with. Once I bounced the Sanctum and destroyed Nezahal, they scooped. They got kind of salty about us going after their stuff, but I sort of expect that from this deck.

I then destroyed Shalai and Blinding Angel and countered Shalai on the way back down and Shalai scooped too. They had made mention of going after the blue player first (which is fair) but I don't think we would have been doing very well if no one interacted with the Shrines. They get out of hand extremely quickly. I was only sorry I wasn't running white to destroy their enchantments :)

Overall, the deck performed well, It had a slow start and I got picked on a little to begin with so Sygg didn't trigger, but eventually players realized I wasn't really the threat. Infiltrator did a lot of work since Fear let me attack through a lot of potential blockers. Twilight Prophet was good too and I had Dark Confidant in hand that I was sandbagging with the expectation that I would need to wrath at some point.

I think the only real potential mistake was not countering the black Shrine when they recast it but even that was more of a situation where I was willing to take a few hits with it to save my []Forbid for something better. Since they scooped, I never got to see the something better :(

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I finally got a game with Sygg in paper. It was against Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, God-Eternal Oketra, and God-Eternal Rhonas. These are the same decks I played against with my Xenagos build since only I changed commanders. Gisela is my own deck in my sig, and the two God-Eternals were also owned by the same player (the Rhonas player).

Gisela got off to a fast start and started poking me early on. Oketra got down an Oketra's Monument and an Anointed Procession so they were able to get a little going with tokens. Not as fast as the deck can go, but still pretty good. Rhonas got stuck on lands for a while so they just kept ticking up their Helix Pinnacle (they only got it to about 30 counters by the end of the game).

Since Rhonas wasn't the threat, I was the main target. At least, early on. Gisela and Oketra were really doing a lot. I was able to cast Damnation to slow them both down though. The all star of this game was Bloodchief Ascension though. I got this out early, got 3 counters on it after about 3 turns and then things like the aforementioned Damnation and Reforge the Soul allowed me to gain a lot of life and have my opponents lose a lot of life.

Gisela tried to land their Commander a number of time but Rapid Hybridization, Slaughter Pact, and Snuff Out were able to take care of her when they tried to equip Lightning Greaves to her. Oketra was still getting out of control and were presenting lethal to me on board towards the end of the game. Gisela was basically out and Rhonas was actually out thanks mostly to Ascension.

So, the main play of the game was Gisela casting Gisela for the last time, me copying it with Stunt Double and then blowing it up. This protected me from all of Oketra's 1/1 tokens and I only took 2 off their Zombies. This gave me a couple extra turns I wouldn't have had.

Gisela lost shortly after so it was just me and Oketra and I was still in a bad spot. They had a massive army, my Ascension was gone thanks to Gisela, and they managed to gain a little life to put them out of reach of an easy alpha strike.

But, I kept getting in with Gisela and Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft to deal some damage while holding back blockers and drawing with Sygg. I didn't have the upper hand by any means, but I was keeping them in range without dying but it was getting close.

The last couple turns were basically me digging for Cyclonic Rift because Oketra was going to win the race. I looked at something like 10 cards with Ponder, Sygg, Dread Presence (which triggered on every land thanks to Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), and maybe another spell or two. At one point, I just bounced lands with Kefnet to replay them with Terrain Generator to draw and I even went as far as to play a Ghost Quarter and blew up my own land to get another land to draw.

In the end, it all payed off as I finally drew into Spellseeker. I cast it, tutored for Rift and was finally able to close out the game.

As I said, Ascension was an all star here and it did so much to keep me in the game. It triggered Sygg a few times, gained me massive amounts of life (I was at 80 something I think at the top end). But the play with Stunt Double Gisela and blow up original Gisela was my favorite :)

I know I had Silumgar's Command in hand at one point and I think I couldn't cast it to do what I wanted. The modes wouldn't let me kill Gisela's Sun Titan or counter it and it didn't do much else either. I don't remember if I even cast it to be honest. Other than that though, I didn't see any cards that were just bad and I had a blast at the end of the game just trying to dig for answers and trying to figure out my lines. I won't say my plays were altogether flawless, but one reason I really like this deck is because it rewards tight play and I enjoy getting out of tough spots like I was in.

Now, another caveat is that the pilot of Oketra is not the person that normally plays it and is generally an Arena player. They know how to play Magic but that doesn't mean they necessarily know how to play the deck. The Rhonas pilot did comment on a couple misplays after the game so I am pretty sure that in the hands of the owner I likely would have lost this game. There were some mistakes made that allowed me time to eke out the win that may not have occurred otherwise.

I don't think it detracts from the win too much as wins and losses can occur fairly often due to misplays on all sides (I am definitely guilty of some) but I felt it worth calling out mostly because we talked about it after the game and this player hasn't even played EDH. At least, not that I have seen. They mostly stick to Brawl.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

My initial post for this accidentally "cut" cards I had already cut so I needed to update it accordingly

After a few more thoughts on what I want to do, I am going to update the deck with the following changes:
06/30/20
Approximate Total Cost:

Silumgar's Command is on the high side for CMC and Epiphany ends up being a better option in most cases I think. I don't like staying that high with CMC, but I think adding 1 to that is worth it.

With that in mind though, cutting Dream Eater might be right at this time. Mainly to lower the curve. I will miss the card selection and bounce, but I think it is worth cutting it for now.

Call is being cut since I misread the card, mostly. I thought it was any two creatures with CMC 3 or less but their CMC combined needs to be 3 or less which means it will always only get one creature back. I would be better off with Unearth if I really wanted the effect.

I mentioned the adds above, but Insight is the one I want to comment more on. I am not entirely sure of this card. I am already increasing my curve with Epiphany and 4 mana isn't cheap in this deck. But, with the amount of card draw I have, the Insight seems like it could do a lot if it sticks. If it doesn't, I have potentially taken a turn off to do nothing which isn't good since I am generally trying to be reactive.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I played this deck last night against God-Eternal Bontu and Tishana, Voice of Thunder.

I got Sygg down turn 2 and Shadowmage Infiltrator turn 3. Infiltrator ensured I drew a card each turn. I also got Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow onto the field at one point along with a Stunt Double copying an Overbeing of Myth with Sea-Dasher Octopus Mutated onto it. I ended up mutating it since I didn't have enough Blue mana to just cast it.

With all of this on the field, I ended up casting a Teferi's Ageless Insight. I was drawing about 8 cards a turn: 1 from the draw, 2 from Overbeing's trigger, 2 from Infiltrator, 2 from Sygg's trigger, and 1 from Yuriko's trigger. Which meant I had a couple turns where I had to discard quite a bit.

I did finally draw into Reliquary Tower and I ended the game with 30+ cards in hand. I was able to counter basically anything my opponents did thanks to Forbid and Fierce Guardianship made an appearance to counter Liliana, Dreadhorde General. Arcane Denial and Disallow also showed up. Deadly Rollick exiled a somewhat inconsequential Falkenrath Noble from Bontu just so I could attack in without my stuff dying.

Dread Presence also ended up on board and drew me 2 cards per Swamp (and every land was a Swamp thanks to Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth) which also kept my hand full.

The overwhelming card advantage was far too much for my opponents to deal with and, even though I was only attacking for 7 damage at a time, I chipped away at both of them until they died.

This is exactly how I want this deck to play. I get down a couple small beaters to draw cards and then control the board as much as possible and that is exactly what I did here. Insight did a massive amount of work in this game as well and I am really impressed with it in this deck. It sort of sucked that I ended up having to discard so much earlier but it ended up sculpting my hand into something that could handle what my opponents were doing.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

This style of deck seems like it would do very well in a 3-player game where it's pretty easy to just control two players - my Inalla removal-counter.dec always tore it up in 3s :)

In a 4-player game you've got to play some serious politics to make it work I imagine.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

pokken wrote:
3 years ago
In a 4-player game you've got to play some serious politics to make it work I imagine.
The couple games online I basically just flew under the radar and I think that is where this deck wants to sit. Effectively, that means that politics are more of a passive thing with this deck. That is, the deck is just churning out small incremental advantage that it is hard for someone to justify going after me when there are huge creatures elsewhere. The politics really come down to good threat assessment. Save who you need to save (or, disrupt who you need to) which then provides a common enemy.

So, I think you are right about politics playing a large part though it is more of a function of the deck than it is something to be truly cognizant of. It will sort of work itself out without any real effort to actually play politics. That is how it has felt to me so far though.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Here are my overdue card summaries/evaluations for Zendikar Rising and Commander Legends. I just bunched them all together and tried to limit the scope of what cards are being discussed. There might be something I missed of course, but hopefully I got the main ones.

Blue Cards

Deliberate - So, this is a weird card to evaluate. It is just a Preordain for 1 mana more. But, that mana gets us an Instant. Which I think is worthy of discussion. I do think that in this deck, the Instant makes it worth including over Serum Visions. I would rather be able to Scry before my draw in case I am really looking for a specific answer (or even a land). But, 2 mana is where we want to cast Sygg so it means it won't be cast until turn 3 at best so, in this deck, I think the added mana is a serious detriment.

Thieving Skydiver - I am not entirely sure this card fits here but this is probably the only deck where I could conceivably argue for its inclusion so I am putting it here. 3 mana to steal a Sol Ring, 4 to steal a Talisman or Signet, or 5 to steal a Sword all seem like decent returns with a 2/1 flier included in the deal. I do think anything more than that is not likely to happen enough to bank on, though the late game option to steal some massive artifact can be nice.

Even with liking the card, I don't think it really fits here either. If this was 3 power, I think I would probably find a spot for it as it can trigger Sygg on its own, but even then it doesn't do a lot after it is on the field.

Hullbreacher - I don't think this is a great card for this deck, but it is 3 power, it does have Flash, and it can (potentially) ramp me. I don't have any plans to build more with it in mind with things like Windfall or Twister, but as just a creature that might slow others down it can alright. It is tough to throw this in when Notion Thief is left out, but the 1 mana difference could be enough. It is not a done deal though and I will see if there is a spot I can find it.

Black Cards

Court of Ambition - This seems like a pretty good card for the deck. There is a pretty high chance I can't protect the Monarch but even without it, this causes players to lose 3 life which is exactly what I need to trigger Sygg. The effect is even better with Monarch of course, but getting some use out of it even if someone else is Monarch is pretty good. And even if all 3 players choose to discard a card to ensure I can't draw, it is still worth it to try to keep ahead of them in cards.

Deadly Alliance - With this deck being all about removal, this is a card worth at least looking at. Especially since Sygg covers the "Rogue" requirement. But, the deck is so creature light as it is that it is unlikely that I will have more than 2 creatures in my party at a given time. At best. I can make a full party with [[Twilight Prophet as my Cleric, but 3 mana, with hoops, to kill something means it just isn't as good as other 3 mana spells.

Feed the Swarm - Red and Black traditionally have the worst options to deal with Enchantments. Blue is not very far behind in that it can deal with them temporarily with bounce (or maybe counter them depending on what is in hand). So, since this deck is 2 of the 3 worst colors for enchantments, and this card is 2 mana, I think it is worth overlooking the Sorcery timing to allow for some further resiliency against Enchantments. It does hit creatures too so it isn't a dead card when no enchantments are out, but I think it is something worth trying out somewhere in the deck.

Opposition Agent - Another Stax-y card like Hullbreacher, this ends up being enticing because it is 3 mana for 3 power with Flash with a really good ability. While I am not entirely sure how I feel about the effect just yet, I think it has to be included to at least see what it can do.

Soul Shatter - Again, another removal spell. While this doesn't target, it does affect everyone and can be decent to clear the board of some big creatures, especially if people are trying to rebuild after a wrath. I think this is worth including.

Szat's Will - Basically another Soul Shatter effect but with grave hate stapled to it. I don't know that I can include both and I do think it is worth including for the effect(s). 5 mana vs 3 mana is the issue so I will have to see where I end up on this and Soul Shatter.

Multicolor Cards

Anowon, the Ruin Thief - Being 4 mana and only dealing 2 damage sort of puts this right on the line of not being good enough. But, it is another card that (potentially) draws me a card when it connects and works with Sygg to get a couple cards per attack. I am not sure what I would cut, but I think I am willing to try the card out.

Araumi of the Dead Tide - This card ticks a lot of reasonable boxes, though I am not sure it is entirely good enough. This deck runs a lot of creatures so being able to get some back can be important. The deck doesn't really have a reanimation strategy so having cards in the graveyard is quite often the same as being exiled anyway and this gives me a way to re-use those cards, even if it is temporary. The main question is whether being temporary is worth it. Very few cards have ETB triggers and the cards tend to be on the small side so they may not really connect when attacking.

I don't know what I end up cutting but I think the effect is worth attempting to slot the card in somewhere. I will be watching it to see how effective it actually ends up being and it might have a short life in the deck.
Last edited by WizardMN 3 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

With the cards from Zendikar and Commander Legends, here are the changes I am going to make for now:
11/12/20
Approximate Total Cost:

Tymaret just doesn't seem to mesh well with the rest of the deck so I am going to cut him for now. While grave hate is important, I don't think he is what I want.

Windfall is being cut because I think I am past the point of needing it. It does work well with Hullbreacher, which I am not including for now, but I don't think it does enough on its own.

And the third card is hard to figure out. I think I want to step back from the Moxen in the deck. The addition of card selection and the fact that my curve is low enough, I think I am fine with things going a little slower. For now, I am going to cut Mox Amber because Diamond at least does offer the ability to get Sygg down turn 1 while Amber does not.

I may end up revisiting the idea of cutting Diamond depending on how well the additions work and whether I need to make room for anything else (I did decide against Soul Shatter and Hullbreacher in this deck for now).

Court of Ambition is a little higher in the mana cost but Monarch really helps keep my hand full, if I can hang on to it, and the trigger will always trigger Sygg which gets me another card later. I think it is worth the slot.

Opposition Agent actually has the same issue Hullbreacher does in that it is more of a stax card and it doesn't do as much as I would like. I might get 1 or 2 cards out of it over the course of the game, and it will slow people down otherwise, but I don't expect the effect to do a ton. I am including it because, at the very least, I can use it to trigger Sygg via combat and I might be able to get someone with it.

Araumi of the Dead Tide allows for a bit of recursion and since this deck doesn't really do much with the graveyard, I think it can at least be worth getting a couple tokens to try to deal damage with. The main issue is going to be that the creatures I tend to reanimate are going to be small so it could be unlikely they actually do anything.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

None of the changes above were made for this game as the cards aren't online yet

I played a game against Verazol, the Split Current and Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts. There was a 4th player but they skipped their first turn and scooped. This actually made the game much worse overall.

I started off with 3 lands in hand and a Mox Diamond. I also had a Dimir Cutpurse and Smuggler's Copter in hand. However, because the room was listed as casual (I think this is a casual deck even if it is sort of in a gray area) I chose not to cast Copter turn one. Instead, I cast Copter turn 2 and Sygg turn 3 to then crew Copter and get some draws going. I also got down Dark Confidant and Dimir Cutpurse to get even more draw going.

Verazol was going sort of slow and I think missed at least one land drop, but was able to string together Sakura Tribe Elder and Cultivate to get some mana. They did start the game with The Ozolith but overall, it didn't do a lot in the game.

Teysa was running an ultra budget deck as they told us as the game wrapped up and, as such, they were kind of slow as well. They didn't really commit too much to the board at any point so my spot removal was doing well against both decks to start with.

My favorite play of the game happened mid way through. Teysa was working on building a board and cast a King Macar, the Gold-Cursed. I flashed in Stunt Double and crewed Copter. When I untapped, I exiled their Macar and got a Gold token. It wasn't game breaking by any means, but it was pretty cool.

Unfortunately, when Teysa's turn came around again, they cast Hour of Revelation. I tried to "counter" it with Venser, Shaper Savant but Verazol countered him with Mana Drain. I ended up using Boomerang to save Cutpurse. When my turn came around, I cast Sygg and Loyal Subordinate that I just drew and got my draws that way.

Verazol ended up casting their commander for 8 mana using the Mana Drain mana and left open enough to cast Mold Shambler. I let them copy it and then countered the original as their copy went after my Reliquary Tower and I didn't want to lose any more lands.

A couple turns later, I was able to get their board cleared again with Capsize (casting it once) and Snuff Out. I swung and dwindled their life even further. I then Mystical Tutored for Undermine since they were at 3 life but they had The Great Henge on the field. With Undermine and Loyal Subordinate, it was enough to kill them.

They tried to get rid of the Subordinate so that is what I countered with Undermine.

Teysa cast Deathbringer Regent but misread the card thinking it would blow the board. Unfortunately, there were only 4 other creatures so no trigger. I ended up getting to my turn, letting the Subordinate trigger kill Verazol and then bounced Regent with Wipe Away. I swung in to get them down to 4 and then they attempted to cast Merciless Eviction on their turn. I flashed in Snapcaster Mage to recast Undermine putting them at 1. Subordinate's trigger did the rest.

Now, as mentioned, the room was labeled casual and this deck is sort of skirting the edges of that due to its (mostly) "one for one" nature. So having someone scoop right away makes a pretty substantial difference in how the game goes. I felt kind of bad at the end due to this. To be honest, when the room said casual, I wasn't sure on just *how* casual it was. Since the host was playing a budget deck, I probably would have opted out if they said "budget". I think Verazol was a little higher in power though; I was just able to keep their commander off the field which helped throw a wrench into things.

In any case, the deck performed admirably and probably would have been even better if I had cast Diamond turn 1. But the card draw that early without being interrupted was huge. And Smuggler's Copter was an all-star this game. Not only did it let me sculpt my hand a little, getting some much needed lands in the process, it also got damage in when players didn't have flying blockers so I could more consistently trigger Sygg.

I never saw any of the 3 cards I said I would cut, so nothing really to report on there. However, I also never got to a point where Opposition Agent would have been good without being grief-y. Verazol mostly tutored lands, which would have been nice, though Teysa did cast Increasing Ambition twice so those would have been really nice to steal.

As I said above I am not sure how that card is going to go, and this game was more casual that I expected, so I can't say for certain I wouldn't have liked it. But, as is the main concern, it is likely going to lead to far more feel bad moments than I want and, in a deck full of counterspells, I probably don't want to increase those situations by a whole lot.

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Post by pokken » 3 years ago

I am always looking for reasons to play Smuggler's Copter - it was regularly MVP of my affinity deck :) Seems amazing in this.

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