Linden, the Steadfast Queen - Token Aggro

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
Personally, I would value Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite over it. I get that you get a few bodies with the Archon but I would much rather negate an opposing token deck than see who can make more bodies. The only concern which sometimes makes me pass on it is the concern of theft / clones.
I think that might be a meta-question. Sometimes Harmonious Archon is dishing out greater penalties than -2/-2 (against something like R/G Omnath, it's parity with Elesh).

I think HA also has the canned army thing going for it. Also, Elesh attracts a certain kind of rage that HA won't.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

Sinis wrote:
4 years ago
ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
Personally, I would value Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite over it. I get that you get a few bodies with the Archon but I would much rather negate an opposing token deck than see who can make more bodies. The only concern which sometimes makes me pass on it is the concern of theft / clones.
I think that might be a meta-question. Sometimes Harmonious Archon is dishing out greater penalties than -2/-2 (against something like R/G Omnath, it's parity with Elesh).

I think HA also has the canned army thing going for it. Also, Elesh attracts a certain kind of rage that HA won't.
Elesh Norn also has immediate impact on the board which can kill off a lot of token / utility creatures even if they have interaction. Getting 2 tokens left after being spot removed out of HA vs having removed half the creatures in play, I tend to prefer Elesh.
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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
Elesh Norn also has immediate impact on the board which can kill off a lot of token / utility creatures even if they have interaction. Getting 2 tokens left after being spot removed out of HA vs having removed half the creatures in play, I tend to prefer Elesh.
Fair points. Maybe... both?

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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

@bobthefunny I'd been meaning to rebuild Darien, King of Kjeldor, but this list is kindof inspiring me toward Queen Linden, but with Darien in the 99. I'll be seeing if I can still make good use damage/loss-of-life/life-gain triggers like Tarnished Citadel and Sun Droplet, but I feel like the move to not focus on Soldier tribal is a good one. Part of the problem I experienced before was Darien trying to be the main token generator and having to devote card slots to protecting him, although card's like Sivvi's Valor made for some explosive reversals (someone once tried destroying Darien by fighting him with an 8/8 - I also had Cathars' Crusade in play).
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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

lyonhaert wrote:
4 years ago
bobthefunny I'd been meaning to rebuild Darien, King of Kjeldor, but this list is kindof inspiring me toward Queen Linden, but with Darien in the 99. I'll be seeing if I can still make good use damage/loss-of-life/life-gain triggers like Tarnished Citadel and Sun Droplet, but I feel like the move to not focus on Soldier tribal is a good one. Part of the problem I experienced before was Darien trying to be the main token generator and having to devote card slots to protecting him, although card's like Sivvi's Valor made for some explosive reversals (someone once tried destroying Darien by fighting him with an 8/8 - I also had Cathars' Crusade in play).
Darien will likely be the more powerful and consistent token producer (especially with cards like City of Brass), but will likely not be as explosive, and play to a longer game. Linden is definitely not the strongest commander that you can pick... but I've definitely found her fun so far. You'll have a lot more Soul Sisters, which today could feasibly include Linden, and will certainly include Daxos. There's also several new soul sister effects that are fairly recent, such as Authority of Consuls and Ajani's Welcome. We're arriving at the point where it's no longer jam every copy in, but you can pick and choose (although, for Darien, it might still be every copy...). I know that I ran a Soul-sister-ish Karlov deck, which certainly worked with those effects, but I'm not ready to revisit that strategy yet.

For protecting him, I have definitely seen Fanatical Devotion in Darien lists, which is likely where I got the idea for this list. You can also run Martyr's Cause, though I've found that Devotion is far better. First Response is also like a mini-Darien, which I've cut from my list due to not having the required self-pain levels, but should still be good in other lists.

I did strongly consider Darien in the 99 initially, as he is a very powerful token producer, but since I didn't have a reliable way to get him out, I felt that the self-pain cards felt out of place without him, and then that he felt out of place without the self-pain, which ended up cutting him. I think he can still work though. He might also be really cool in a WB shell, where the white gains you life, but the black half uses that life for card draw, with things like Midnight Reaper. It can be tricky though, since a lot of those card draw effects are loss of life instead of damage.

If you do rebuild a variant of Darien, I strongly suggest you try out Valor in Akros and/or Goldnight Commander. While it's like a non-permanent Cathars' Crusade, and only saves one mana - I've found with Crusade that typically games don't last very long after Crusade hits the field anyways (or it gets answered immediately) that Akros almost feels like a second copy. I've gotten several very high buffs off of Akros.

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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

bobthefunny wrote:
4 years ago
Darien will likely be the more powerful and consistent token producer (especially with cards like City of Brass), but will likely not be as explosive, and play to a longer game. Linden is definitely not the strongest commander that you can pick... but I've definitely found her fun so far. You'll have a lot more Soul Sisters, which today could feasibly include Linden, and will certainly include Daxos. There's also several new soul sister effects that are fairly recent, such as Authority of Consuls and Ajani's Welcome. We're arriving at the point where it's no longer jam every copy in, but you can pick and choose (although, for Darien, it might still be every copy...). I know that I ran a Soul-sister-ish Karlov deck, which certainly worked with those effects, but I'm not ready to revisit that strategy yet.
The is actually an issue I ran into with Darien. I used to have 2-3 soul sisters (and Ranger of Eos to tutor them), but it often produced a soft-lock on the game where players wouldn't attack me unless they could alpha strike. Beneficial to me, but I didn't like how that was playing out so I took the soul sisters out to focus on stuff like Righteous Cause.
bobthefunny wrote:
4 years ago
He might also be really cool in a WB shell, where the white gains you life, but the black half uses that life for card draw, with things like Midnight Reaper.
I've contemplated that with Teysa Karlov since she grants some nice abilities to the tokens.
bobthefunny wrote:
4 years ago
If you do rebuild a variant of Darien, I strongly suggest you try out Valor in Akros and/or Goldnight Commander. While it's like a non-permanent Cathars' Crusade, and only saves one mana - I've found with Crusade that typically games don't last very long after Crusade hits the field anyways (or it gets answered immediately) that Akros almost feels like a second copy. I've gotten several very high buffs off of Akros.
Yep, I have Valor and Goldnight in my wishlist now. Crusade is powerful, but having tokens with different numbers of counters is really annoying to me. Also, the non-permanence of these allows me to use power-based wipes asymmetrically, and stuff like Crackdown.
I'll have to build them in Forge and A|B test them.

But once Linden was spoiled I knew I wanted to rebuild it with both of them in the list one way or another, with other semi-thematic inclusions like the royal advisor (blowing somebody out with Masako the Humorless is on my bucket list), a tactician, and so on. An early draft of the original list included Castle, but it got cut.
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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

Yep. I have Elspeth as the wrath to take advantage of the power of creatures, though there are certainly more out there, which I considered. I also run Crackdown, but that mostly wouldn't hit me anyways due to the non-white clause. But Meekstone and marble titan are considertations as well if you want to go that route. When I ran Heliod, God of the Sun I ran those because Vigilance. It was quite amusing.

For theme, for the Castle, you can instead use Castle Ardenvale and/or Eiganjo Castle. You can also have an Outpost for your soldiers. If you want theme at the cost of questionable cards... I constantly try and make Contested War-Zone work. (all of those are in my Knights deck currently, because Knights need castles).

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Post by lyonhaert » 4 years ago

Yes, vigilance. I love vigilance. Good call on the castle land.
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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

I played two games last night, and they were a bit of a doozy. Nothing clicked quite as well as the first night, but there were some interesting places overall anyways.

Game 1: Emmara, Soul of the Accord vs. Tuvasa the Sunlit vs. Linden, the Steadfast Queen vs. Kaalia of the Vast

Game 1 'ended' very quickly. I decide to keep a one land hand, as I had Weathered Wayfarer, Sword of the Animist, and Idol of Oblivion in hand. My one consolation this game, is that I did out-ramp every other deck on the table... kind of.

Emmara started off with a sol ring, into Emmara and a Smugglers Copter turn 2, into a Citanul Hierophants. Once the tokens started running, and he followed up with Primal Vigor, Rhys the redeemed, and parallel lives join the table, and even though one of the doublers (as well as my Heliod, sun crowned) got exiled, he still had more than enough to drop a Craterhoof Behemoth, with over a hundred creatures, so... We voted him out as winner and kept going. This was made especially painful, as I was holding a Ravnica at war the entire time, which was entirely useless. While I might have been able to hit Rhys, it was only preventing overkill at that point.

As we continue for second place, Tuvasa sits behind a pillowfort, and slowly suits up his commander with some scary auras. This unfortunately leaves me at the mercy of the Kaalia player, who has simply hardcast some angels, With my board set back, I'm able to hang on a little while, but eventually succumb. During this entire time, I'm faced only with mono-white angels, and Ravnica at War was entirely useless.

Tuvasa and Kaalia duke it out a while, but I was helping someone else make modifications to their deck, and I didn't quite notice who won.


Game 2: Yawgmoth, Thran Physician vs. Tuvasa the Sunlit vs. Linden, the Steadfast Queen vs. Derevi, Empyrial Tactician vs. Xantcha, Sleeper Agent

This time Tuvasa keeps the one land hand, but that hand is a Serra Sanctum, Leyline of Anticipation, and land tax. So, that's a thing. Yawgmoth starts off with some land difficulties as well, while I have a rather standard start, but unfortunately shy on removal. Xantcha tries to give his Commander to Yawgmoth after dropping a Tome of Legends, but yawgmoth drops a sac outlet and sacs it after combat, not willing to help Xantcha, even though it would temporarily benefit him as well. I try to build up a board with [[Linden, the Steadfast Queen, and Reverent Hoplite, and I swing in with my team - planning to get the hoplite killed and resurrect it with my Angelic Renewal. Sadly, my Commander gets removed before damage, which would only leave me with devotion of two after sacrificing the renewal and returning the hoplite, so I opt not to. This messes up my future plans involving a Cathars' Crusade I have in hand as well, since I don't have a good enough army to try and force it to stick. [[Tuvasa builds up crazy quick with the Serra Sanctum and Land Tax, and Derevi tries to slow him down, but unfortunately Tuvasa becomes pro-blue, and gets double powered a couple of times from a Nylea's Colossus. With Derevi out of the game, Xantcha gets donated to me, and I load up a Sword of Light and Shadow and get a free hit on Tuvasa, but switch to a hit on Yawgmoth after a Dissipation Field hits the board.

During this time, Yawgmoth has dropped his commander and is using an ophiomancer to pop off my tokens every turn, so my field is quite barren. Tuvasa becomes scary again, and I enquire as to whether Xantcha would have enough mana to replay his Commander again the following turn. After an affirmative, I change targets again to Tuvasa, to get him closer to dead. During this time, Sword of Light and Shadow has returned my hoplite, so I'm still sitting on hoplite+crusade in hand, but don't have the mana or turns to really make it work. Xantcha gets replayed, donated back to me, and I suit up the Sword, pay the Propaganda tax, and take out Tuvasa, which nullifies the bounce trigger.

Here we finally enter phase two of the game - the three player portion. I thought that one way or another that the game would end quickly here, and boy was I wrong. It was long enough that I don't remember exactly what happened where, but a few highlights are:
  • Yawgmoth saccing a Kokusho, the evening star to stay alive.
  • Xantcha resurrecting the Kokusho with Necromancy to block Yawg's attack. Yawg sacrificing his Erebos (and his board) ahead of the Kokusho in order to try and Living Death, but Xantcha responding with a Rakdos Charm to exile his yard.
  • Yawgmoth wrathing the board to keep Xantcha off the board from killing him.
  • Me recovering with Sun Titan.
  • Yawgmoth wrathing the board to keep Xantcha off the board from killing him.
  • Yawgmoth reanimating his Kokusho. Xantcha playing his own Kokusho. Both of them conspiring to kill their Kokusho's to drain me 10 in order to get closer to killing me.
  • Me recovering my board with Emeria Shepherd, which also returned a Sun titan and stuff.
  • Yawgmoth wrathing the board to keep Xantcha off the board from killing him. But Sun Titan survives thanks to Angelic Renewal.
  • Me dropping Cathars' Crusade and following up with Leonin Warleader - Also, I get back the Emeria Shepherd with Sword of Light and Shadow.
  • Xantcha casting Wheel of Fortune, getting rid of my Shepherd, but also gets rig of Yawgmoth's Exsanguinate, and also an Oblivion Stone that yawgmoth has been unable to play and sacrifice due to my Aura of Silence.
  • Yawgmoth getting his Black Sun's Zenith back from the Wheel, plus a land to crank it up to 8, but thanks to the Cathars' Crusade counters, Sun Titan and Xantcha, Sleeper Agent survive on my board, and I sac Angelic Renewal to keep the Leonin Warleader.
  • Finally, on my turn, I drop enough stuff to remove the -1 counters, and finally kill Yawgmoth with Xantcha Commander damage, while simultaneously killing Xantcha with regular damage from Sun Titan and Leonin Warleader.
Yes, Yawgmoth wrathed the board 3 turns in a row, and almost a 4th. It was rather impressive.

Also, during the second game I also got Ravnica at War, and it was also useless. I know I really wanted it to be good, but it's getting replaced by a real wrath now.

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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

Planned changes:


Ravnica at War just straight up disappointed me this past week, and after considering some different wrath options, I think I'll go with Hour of Revelation since it can get down to 3 mana.

Caged Sun for the Immortal Sun is a change discussed earlier, as suggested by ISB. I feel I may miss some of the raw power of caged sun, but the card draw of the Immortal Sun will be far better.

Terrain Generator just takes too long and is too slow in a deck like this, and I think a Wastes to tutor to activate the Field of the Dead doesn't seem remiss.

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