Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value

[zKtu]

@JBdnr thank you for clarifying it and agree 100% with you, it takes other cards in the deck to another level

[Kl3dge]

Hey @zKtu and @JBdnr ,

Just as a follow-up, the interaction still didn't seem to match up for me. I went on the judge chat and asked there with some more clarification.

- The first judge that responded told me that it wouldn't work, but also seemed confused why 406.7 would be relevant. I asked for clarification but he was pretty busy with other people.
- At this time, a second judge said he disagreed with the first judge since Prowling Geistcatcher does not specify or care what zone it is interacting with.
- The first judge replied saying he was just saying this ruling because an earlier judge had said "It's exiled instead of going to the graveyard. Since Geistcatcher's ability doesn't exile it, it won't return when the Geistcatcher leaves play".
- What stuck with me was the second judge saying "The Geistcatcher should be able to track the card to exile, and it doesn't specify that it is exiling it from a graveyard. Cards in exile can be exiled again. Geistcatcher should be exiling the cards exiled with Rest in Peace if they were put there by Geistcatcher's controller sacrificing them"

Unfortunately, at this point I had some other stuff come up and had to leave the chat. To follow up, I made a post on a separate Judge page. In this post I was able to clarify exactly what the situation was and what I expected to happen. To summarize:

- What happens?
- Judge: "It gets sacrificed to exile and Catcher triggers. The trigger exiles it in exile."

- "Does that mean Prowling Geistcatcher would still trigger, exiling the card which Rest in Peace has already exiled?"
- Judge: "Yes"

- "CAN it exile the card after Rest in Peace ?"
- Judge: "Yes"

- "Does rule 406.7 apply here to allow a card in exile to be exiled again as a new object?"
- Judge: "Yes"

Either way, this card is super strong. I just wanted some more clarification for myself and decided to share what I found with you guys! Until we have a ruling placed in gatherer feel free to play it as you believe it to happen, but due to the new information this is how I will play it.

tl;dr: Asked a couple other judges their thoughts, one disagreed without proper justification, the two that agreed with me were able to justify their answer.

Good luck! 😀

[zKtu]

@Kl3dge haha nice ! it does seem a bit confusing. and I think it will be difficult in real game setting to convince people of this rule

THank you for following up on this, its super helpful

[JBdnr]

Thanks! I asked again as well. Apparently, Rest in Peace does not affect us after all, although none of the 2 judges seemed super sure, and danced around a definitive answer until I pressed them.

The following rule was quoted to be relevant as well :
400.7d. Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield") can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.

[zKtu]

I was thinking on some changes to the deck and thought of sharing with all of you what I had in mind

Here are some cards that that I would be ok to remove:
- Remove Mad Auntie Protection of Grenzo is great with the tap ability, but due to the summoning sickness I usually have opponents reacting right on the spot before it can be activated. the +1+1 is nice but I always get Grenzo with 1 counter, some times with 2 so I don't have mana wasted.
- Remove Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt More than 100 games and I don't think I've ever used it, except as a land, so there is some opportunity here
- Remove any lands that come into play tapped, example of Path of Ancestry . Yes the scry is really good but not having the possibility to tap right away for mana is a big drawback and I'm trying to go for speed.

Additions that I'm considering:
- Phyrexian Tower the deck loves creature sacrifice and having sac outlets, so getting a tap and sacrifice to generate 2 mana is I would say a great opportunity that we shouldn't pass. this addition in my view is a must
- Overeager Apprentice guaranteed 3 mana to keep flipping with Grenzo just like Priest of Urabrask with the added bonus of getting rid of dead cards in hand, plus the additional benefit of triggering Pawn of Ulamog and Pitiless Plunderer if we don't have a sac outlet out yet
- Rapacious Dragon same rationale as above. there will be no sacrifice but the 2 extra treasures means a free flip, keeping us digging, while also potential to trigger twice Mayhem Devil. Also its always good to have a 3/3 flying blocker on the field. Added bonus if you are panicking flip after a board wipe, it will give you 2 mana that you can use later to get Grenzo back
- Catalyst Elemental same rationale as above. just keep flipping with trigger benefits
- Volrath's Stronghold an additional cast of Dockside Extortionist
- Gemstone Caverns just the possibility of having a pre-game action and being 1 land ahead is very worth it. As we always do aggressive muliganing, going down to 6 or 5, there is a good probability of starting with a gemstone cavern in hand.
- Vesuva this is meant to copy anything that can make 2 mana a turn: Phyrexian Tower or Ancient Tomb or fix any missing mana: we have only mountains? copy a swamp. or vice versa
- Safe Haven I thought this was a really interesting inclusion. As we play at the end of our opponents turn, right before ours, we can also exile any ETB that we desperately need: Meteor Golem for removal or extra mana with Dockside Extortionist or for protecting anything on the board that we would like to keep
- Ancient Ziggurat I think this one is a must instead of a Mountain or Scalding tarn
- Scorched Ruins this goes into what I was mentioning on maximizing number of flips as early as possible. Also provide an insane combination with Vesuva
- High Market me thinking outside of the box to maximize sac outlets in the deck..

Edit: City of Traitors could also be a good addition

What do you all think?

[Outcryqq]

I think Ancient Ziggurat is not something I'd add, as the mana it produces can never be used to activate Grenzo's ability.

I know you're worried about the speed of your deck (hence why you're cutting Path of Ancestry). That being said, Safe Haven, while an interesting use for it, seems extraordinarily slow. It takes up a land drop, it doesn't tap for mana, you can only use the second ability during your upkeep. I think there are better uses of a slot in this deck.

I like a lot of the other utility lands, though I'd be careful to go too deep on lands that don't produce colored mana.

[zKtu]

@Outcryqq aaah you're super right! I forgot about that on the Ziggurat. I completely missed it

Correct, on Safe Haven it was in this case less on speed but more on maximising ETBs, especially on Dockside

[zKtu]

another card similar to Safe haven / Volrath Stronghold is Mortuary Mire. problem is that it enters tapped

[XamIllustration]

Silly question, is Myr Retriever a good alternative to Junk Diver?

I have another deck to build that might need Junk Diver, so I am looking around for alternative that similar to Junk Diver for the Grenzo deck.

The Grenzo have been doing so well to me. Unfortunately I could't find another Junk Diver, so I looking around for alternative cards for it to put in the Grenzo deck until I can get junk diver in the foreseeable future.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

[Arkren]

Silly question, is Myr Retriever a good alternative to Junk Diver?

I have another deck to build that might need Junk Diver, so I am looking around for alternative that similar to Junk Diver for the Grenzo deck.

The Grenzo have been doing so well to me. Unfortunately I could't find another Junk Diver, so I looking around for alternative cards for it to put in the Grenzo deck until I can get junk diver in the foreseeable future.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

i think that junk diver is better mainly because of flying. that being said, the two of them are very similar. rakdos doesn have a lot of flyers and there are even less in a grenzo deck usually so for me at least is important to have one more flyer in the deck, but that is also meta dependant, maybe in yours there arent any Sigarda, Host of Herons or other flying voltron commanders or the occasional flyer that gets +30/+30 one random turn. if you dont have to deal with these things in describing, then junk diver is not better than retriever.

[snowfox54119]

I apologize for being MIA for a while, everyone. School life has been crazy. However, I've seen the discussion and just wanted to chime in and agree that Prowling Geistcatcher is a rockstar of a card that absolutely will make the list!

[PenThief]

So I havent been able to play magic for a long time, but ive kept up with new cards (kinda). There is a local budget commander tournament I want to enter, and as this decklist so close to my heart, I really want to run Grenzo here, thought it could be fun and i might be able to fit it in budget and stay competetive as the prizes are pretty good (foil snapcaster, foil sylval library, some others iirc). the deck has to be $100 or less with a list on mtggoldfish to submit. So far im having some trouble figuring out which combos are essential for the cost but definetly having some trouble as i havent played grenzo in like 2+ years lol.

Any suggestions?

[zKtu]

So I havent been able to play magic for a long time, but ive kept up with new cards (kinda). There is a local budget commander tournament I want to enter, and as this decklist so close to my heart, I really want to run Grenzo here, thought it could be fun and i might be able to fit it in budget and stay competetive as the prizes are pretty good (foil snapcaster, foil sylval library, some others iirc). the deck has to be $100 or less with a list on mtggoldfish to submit. So far im having some trouble figuring out which combos are essential for the cost but definetly having some trouble as i havent played grenzo in like 2+ years lol.

Any suggestions?

Hi @PenThief I would recommend to go to the first page of this Thread where SnowFox describes the deck. He has a good list of Combos of the deck (ex: Kiki Jiki + Zealousconscripts)

Although I'm not sure this deck is very competitive for tournaments as luck on flips plays a major role, relies a lot on politics and people not really knowing what Grenzo is capable of. Just my 2 cents

[Arkren]

So I havent been able to play magic for a long time, but ive kept up with new cards (kinda). There is a local budget commander tournament I want to enter, and as this decklist so close to my heart, I really want to run Grenzo here, thought it could be fun and i might be able to fit it in budget and stay competetive as the prizes are pretty good (foil snapcaster, foil sylval library, some others iirc). the deck has to be $100 or less with a list on mtggoldfish to submit. So far im having some trouble figuring out which combos are essential for the cost but definetly having some trouble as i havent played grenzo in like 2+ years lol.

Any suggestions?

if you already have a list i would advice to post it so that we can see what expensive cards are going up from 100$ and help you. without a list... i would cut expensive duals and other expensive lands, lands are not a problem for grenzo, so you can save on budget by playing a lot of basics and maybe a few cheap duals, even just basics + terramorphic and panoramas and the like are usually more than enough to hit the two colours that you need. after that, you only want more and you only really need for them to give you mana even if colorless and is actually good to have them enter untapped. Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge is the one land that i would advice if you can do it without reaching the budget limit.

other than that, looking at my own list, the only two "expensive" cards that i would maintain are Ashnod's Altar and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. this deck functions just by having a lot of ramp-effects like the myrs or solem simulacrum, things that add mana when they enter, things that make tokens... most of the "combo" pieces like Epitaph Golem are very cheap so you will not have any trouble maintain them in your list

[PenThief]

@Arkren Awesome I appreciat the advice, I'm just floating some deck ideas in my head rn, and was pricing out he cards. Been swamped with work but ill get my list together the next day or so and will post it.

@zKtu Thanks for the welcome! I have been following the thread since salvation and used to have a pretty similar list to whats in the main primer(like 2+years ago) but at the moment its just cards in boxes

[zKtu]

ofc @PenThief , glad to have you back with us Grenzo is an amazing deck, was my first EDH deck and I absolutely love it. Just let us know the list and we can all help out

[zKtu]

Hi everyone,

was taking a look at the previews of Innistrad Crimson Vow and one card card caught my eye:

Olivia, Crimson Bride 4RB 3/4 creature with Flying, Haste "Whenever Olivia attacks, return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped and attacking, it gains "When you don't control a legendary vampire, exile this creature"

The last part kind of ruins it for combo cards like Dockside Extortionist because a removal of Olivia means Dockside gets exiled... but it could be potentially good for other non-combo utility creatures like Meteor Golem or Ravenous Chupacabra. Also the downside of having to attack instead of ETB

Not amazing, but interesting.

What do you think?

[Gribbet]

The on attack seems annoying and the exile makes me nervous. You could always send the creature you bring back towards someone who will kill it with a block. That being said, with a sac outlet you can prevent the exile and Olivia, Mobilized for War can incidentally make your legendaries into Vampires. Re-occurring "free" reanimating seems pretty good.

[kraus911]

Not that we have a lot of slots that are flex, but the two new partners from the Crimson Vow vampire deck are decent.

Laurine, the Diversion and Kamber, the Plunderer for reference. We don't care tooo much about goading, but it can be useful and the sac outlet on Laurine is useful. And if we flip her we can go get Kamber, or vice versa. Kamber is basically a discard outlet using the blood tokens and the life gain isn't unwelcome.

[MtG_Maniac]

Hello all. Been following this thread ever since snowfox put it on Salvation. Grenzo is my absolute favorite general. I was the one who fist introduced Olivia, Mobilized for War. So, just spitballing here, but I've got another interesting card I want you guys to evaluate. It's Necrotic Ooze !
Yes, he is power of 4, so that alone is enough to keep him out of this stream-lined list, but as a 1-of power of 4, he brings a lot to the table. I've got 23 creatures in my deck that he can interact with, especially Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Epitaph Golem, Treasonous Ogre, Goblin Welder, and even Moggcatcher. Let's not forget all the sac outlets. He can even keep himself alive with Dimir House Guard. He may need to be hard cast, or pulled out of the graveyard somehow, but if the game goes long, he's a powerful force to be reckoned with, and fun too. Heck, he could even act as a Balthor the Defiled. So, any feedback?

[zKtu]

Hey @MtG Maniak no doubt it is an excellent card. The only downside is being 4 power, so that means 2 additional counters on Grenzo, 4 mana to cast him. Unless you have some ramp the first turns it will mean a turn 3 / 4 when he can be out and turn 4 / 5 when you can start flipping cards. That might be too late.
Or we consider a new strategy for Grenzo and we include 4 power cards and there are a lot of amazing ones...

Goldspan Dragon , Neheb, the Eternal, Nirkana Revenant , Mindslicer , Tergrid, God of Fright // Tergrid's Lantern , Cavalier of Night , Gisa, Glorious Resurrector , Nightmare Shepherd ... etc etc

[MtG_Maniac]

Ah yes, zKtu, I don't disagree with you. And I'm not looking to "change the strategy" of this Grenzo deck. This is my all time favorite general. As initially stated in my post, for a speed-focused, streamlined, power of 2 at most power of 3; Necrotic Ooze doesn't make the list, hands down. But that wasn't really the point of my post. In light of the stagnancy of this deck, due to poor interaction with recent releases, I was really trying to stimulate discussion, and should have probably said something like, IF we were to include ONLY 1 card, power greater than 3, what would you include?

You see, Necrotic Ooze, fits into MANY if not ALL of the deck's creature/combo interactions. Contrary to your comment regarding turn 3/4, etc., the Ooze is way more effective later, when the graveyard is full of stuff you can interact with, and be an explosive midgame play to trigger an immediate winning combo. He's like redundancy extraordinare. Not to give you a hard time, but you missed my point. All the cards you mentioned (and there are MANY more) are inferior to the Ooze, in this deck. Let's see what other discussion we get.

[Gribbet]

Necrotic Ooze does some heavy lifting, but if people are blowing up graveyards the power goes down a bit. The four power creature I had my eye on was Flayer of the Hatebound. It's gas with any hit and has a little bit of removal protection.

[crowned]

Hey guys, happy new year. Long-time follower of snowfox' deck, even back in the days on tappedout and mtgsalvation.
I really enjoy playing Grenzo with the 3 power limit. It gives the deck stability and needed tempo, since the "current version" cut almost all sources of noncreature ramp.

The latter is becoming an growing issue in my playgroup lately since i rarely have anything mentionable on the board at turn 3, playing grenzo into an overfilled board state.

I am very satifsfied with my land count, I never thought that 32 Lands (1 of them can be a creature, 4 fetchlands) can work out so well. I never had to choose to mull in my last 4 games - maybe that's completely wrong but I tend to keep a 2-3 land hand with a cmc 3 or below ramp card.
I tend to run way more removal in my decks though, since we can't out-tempo any green decks otherwise.

Chainer, Nightmare Adept/ Olivia, Mobilized for War and Skirge Familiar doing god's work and make my hand cards useful again.
Dauthi Voidwalker/ Author of Shadows are in testing right now, but seem really good on paper as double duty "borrowing" & graveyard hate.
I am also testing Opposition Agent to hate on fetchlands and green ramp. It's carrying it's own weight pretty well.
Plundering Barbarian is an additional piece of artifact removal that does something in case nobody is running artifacts - believe me, it happens in casual commander.
Prowling Geistcatcher is just absurd with an Ashnod's on the field.
I had doubts aboutYoung Necromancer, but he totally rules!

What do you guys think about the new treasure cards? Has anyone of you tried a Magda, Brazen Outlaw for ramp and a possible tutor?
There's only a handful of good edh dwarves unfortunately - even less if you think Grenzo. Plundering Barbarian and Balthor the Defiled are definitely worth of a slot in the 99.

[werewulf]

Reito Sentinel - this card is extremely interesting to me, pretty confident this will be going in my list.

Not sure I will be replacing the Reito Lantern as redundancy is so nice but the fact that this is flippable at 3 makes this auto-include for me. Thoughts?