Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value

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SlurmsMcKenzie
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Post by SlurmsMcKenzie » 3 years ago

snowfox54119 wrote:
3 years ago
Here are my thoughts on some of the cards mentioned:

- Chainer, Nightmare Adept - I definitely wouldn't replace Olivia, Mobilized for War with him because Olivia's ability has a lot more versatility than being just a discard outlet that provides haste. As mentioned in previous posts, she can rebuff Grenzo if necessary as well as reset persist triggers. The other issue that's kept me from including Chainer is while his discard outlet is instant-speed, the following ability to cast from your graveyard isn't. Instant-speed is typically where the deck wins anyways. Casting cards also opens you up to more counter interaction which just means wasted mana that could've been utilized for uncounterable flips. If I were to add him, I'd probably replace Anger, but even then, he's a flimsier haste enabler. I'm willing to hear additional arguments for him (and anecdotal experiences), but I have yet to be convinced he deserves a spot from my limited experience with him.
Hi again Snowfox54119 and everyone else,

Regarding Chainer i still stand by my point but maybe i need to explain a little more why i prefer him over Olivia:
I think giving our creatures haste is essential. We got important activated abilities that require a creature to get tapped. All the mana producers like Palladium Myr or Soldevi Adnate and also my beloved Goblin Engineer to fetch some nice Artifacts want to be activated before they get removed. Krenko, Mob Boss gets hated out quickly and just sometimes you flip Furystoke Giant on the field and can't tap a thing without your creatures having haste. I know he's got persist and can come back but it's a wasted opportunity. Whith Chainer on the board my gameplay has always been more flexible.
Usually i don't even cast a creature from the graveyard. But i don't always have an active digger loop and if my Welder or Engineer dies and i need to recur an artifact i won't mind casting them because they're cheap...oh and of course Dockside Extortionist.
Anger stays in the deck but i took out Olivia because while i like her ability to buff grenzo or Marionette Master she's just not any good if i am out of cards in hand which happens rugularly.

See ya in the dungeon!

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Arkren
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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

i think that slurms is into something here... olivia is a good card, but apart from the flying she is textless unless you are willing and able to discard cards from your hand, chainer is haste for everything except tokens for free.

olivia gives +1/+1 to certain creatures that maybe need it, but is limited since you need a card in your hand, which is not always there.

chainer does have a reanimation effect that olivia doesnt have. even if reanimating that way is generally not needed in this deck i doesnt hurt to have it... to give just an example, if i have 3 mana + grenzo in play and a palladium myr in hand, you would have to choose between chancing a flip with grenzo or playing the myr and making 2 more mana next rotation. with chainer on board, you can simply discard the myr and cast it from the gy, that way you can use it this rotation and still have the flip

chainer also has a way to discard a card at instant speed, olivia can discard more in a turn, but she also needs creatures entering to do it, chainer can discard 4 in a rotation which is more than enough since a hand usually is not going to have that many that you want to discard and he can do it freely.

olivia can make persist creatures better(for a card in hand), but chainer has a way to return digger loop pieces from the gy to play for that card, or any other creature for that matter, maybe you need 12 life and that gary in the gy is better than a flip. i can also see him reviving grenzo himself, if he gets killed in your turn you can choose gy instead of command zone and just revive him for 3 mana and one card instead of spending 5, 7 or even 9 mana for him, that would mean 1,2 or 3 more flips.

imagine a situacion when you have 4 mana, grenzo ,chainer and ashnod, one card in hand and junktroller and kiki on the graveyard. you could cast junktroller for 4, then put kiki on the bottom with him, sacrifice chainer to the altar, put kiki on board with grenzo, and them combo with the junktroller and kikijiki. you could even have the kikijiki or junktroller in hand and win by discarding them at the start with chainer.

i think that he offers options in certain situations, while also doing almost what olivia does without any conditions

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Post by LaerBear » 3 years ago

With Conspicuous Snoop coming out, I thought I would mention a combo that it enables using some of the cards you already run in here:

Goblin Recruiter (and Moggcatcher) is a one card win condition using Conspicuous Snoop.
Place these on top of you library:

Conspicuous Snoop
Skirk Prospector
Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Lightning Crafter

After drawing, cast the snoop, sac the recruiter through snoop-spector, then cast the prospector. Use snoop-jiki to chain 9 snoop-jiki tokens, and sac 9 snoop-jiki tokens to the prospector. Use the 9 red to cast kiki jiki, then cast lightning crafter, and loop to win.

If you use moggcatcher (who costs 2RR) you can do this during the upkeep after he comes out, drawing you into the snoop, for a total cost of 3RR. It also works well with Goblin Matron.

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

I appreciate the solid points, @SlurmsMcKenzie and @Arkren ! I'll have to test swapping out Olivia with Chainer and see how it feels. While I do love playing at instant-speed, that may have clouded my judgment on his second ability and how useful it could be in pinch situations on our turns. And I agree his static haste enablement is much better than Olivia's triggered version.

@LaerBear , I still don't think Conspicuous Snoop is a card for this particular deck. The combo you described has some major problems in that it requires it to be our turn (which we usually don't play much on) and it's super telegraphed. There are more compact combos with snoop, but they require us to run even more goblins like Boggart Harbinger which I'm just not interested in for this toolbox list. I also don't run Goblin Recruiter in this list anymore as I never felt good flipping it without an active scry source available. In a goblin-heavy version, I'd love this card. In this list, there are more resilient, instant-speed combos I'd rather run that don't require me to sacrifice a value slot for a creature that might end up doing literally nothing if your top card isn't a goblin.

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GuJiaXian
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Post by GuJiaXian » 3 years ago

I played the deck last night for the first time. Our group is very "kitchen table" Magic—two of the players had stock WotC Commander decks, and the third guy was playing a well-tuned Zaxara hydra deck.

Well, I think my Grenzo deck was a smashing success. If it means anything, the game ended (I won) with one of the other players saying, "And now you'll never play that deck again, right?"

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Post by ThePillowman » 3 years ago

Arkren wrote:
3 years ago
i think that slurms is into something here... olivia is a good card, but apart from the flying she is textless unless you are willing and able to discard cards from your hand, chainer is haste for everything except tokens for free.

olivia gives +1/+1 to certain creatures that maybe need it, but is limited since you need a card in your hand, which is not always there.

chainer does have a reanimation effect that olivia doesnt have. even if reanimating that way is generally not needed in this deck i doesnt hurt to have it... to give just an example, if i have 3 mana + grenzo in play and a palladium myr in hand, you would have to choose between chancing a flip with grenzo or playing the myr and making 2 more mana next rotation. with chainer on board, you can simply discard the myr and cast it from the gy, that way you can use it this rotation and still have the flip

chainer also has a way to discard a card at instant speed, olivia can discard more in a turn, but she also needs creatures entering to do it, chainer can discard 4 in a rotation which is more than enough since a hand usually is not going to have that many that you want to discard and he can do it freely.

olivia can make persist creatures better(for a card in hand), but chainer has a way to return digger loop pieces from the gy to play for that card, or any other creature for that matter, maybe you need 12 life and that gary in the gy is better than a flip. i can also see him reviving grenzo himself, if he gets killed in your turn you can choose gy instead of command zone and just revive him for 3 mana and one card instead of spending 5, 7 or even 9 mana for him, that would mean 1,2 or 3 more flips.

imagine a situacion when you have 4 mana, grenzo ,chainer and ashnod, one card in hand and junktroller and kiki on the graveyard. you could cast junktroller for 4, then put kiki on the bottom with him, sacrifice chainer to the altar, put kiki on board with grenzo, and them combo with the junktroller and kikijiki. you could even have the kikijiki or junktroller in hand and win by discarding them at the start with chainer.

i think that he offers options in certain situations, while also doing almost what olivia does without any conditions
As the resident Olivia, Mobilized for War stan, I can appreciate how Chainer, Nightmare Adept brings some really strong flexibility to the table. My experience with this build is that my weakest point of interaction is my hand - 9 times out of 10 I don't want to hard-cast because it means I'm slower to get Grenzo's game-winning combo-line onto the battlefield. @SlurmsMcKenzie I have trouble emptying my hand quickly with this deck, as my play-style is to get into the flips as quickly as possible and forsake any of the other 3+ CMC cards I inevitably have in hand. From that perspective, the Chainer support does make sense, since it can dump them into the graveyard without needing to be triggered. I haven't hit the experiences others have alluded to with Olivia - being able to pick and choose when I'm discarding for her ETB trigger means I'm usually saving cards for the flips that NEED haste, have Persist, or have another synergy from getting the +1/+1 counter.

If the value of Chainer is being able to dump my hand at instant speed to setup a line, that makes sense and I can see that having value in the deck.

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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Hello everybody! I'm so sorry for the long wait for this update, I know several people have been asking for it. So here's the most recent update to the list! I'll be working on updating the primer with these changes hopefully this weekend.

Removed:
Dakmor Salvage/Drownyard Temple /Smoldering Marsh /Spinerock Knoll /Temple of Malice /Dragonskull Summit - This was a pretty big change for me, but I decided to spruce up my land base a bit. I've found too often that lands entering the battlefield tapped can really slow down the pace of the deck. And I'll explain the reason for the replacements below.


Liliana, Heretical Healer // Liliana, Defiant Necromancer - This card just hasn't impressed me in any game. Planeswalkers have never been a mechanic I've enjoyed and the sorcery speed of their usefulness nearly kills it for me.


Avalanche Riders - Replaced with a better creature type.


Tuktuk Scrapper - Being replaced for better artifact removal.


Corpse Connoisseur - I've found that he's usually just an Anger tutor and nothing more. I've rarely ran into a scenario where he binned the key creature I needed to win, because with an active Digger Loop going, I'm usually already there. He is still a hard one to cut since he's been with me since my original list.



Added:
Cavern of Souls - This card should be pretty obvious why it's being included. Uncounterable Grenzo (which can be a big weakness of ours), and makes our other goblins uncounterable as well if that ever becomes relevant.


Polluted Delta /Bloodstained Mire /Scalding Tarn /Marsh Flats/Wooded Foothills - Obviously fetch lands need to be in the deck. They serve two major purposes: land fixing and DECK THINNING (which translates to more successful flips). I'll be looking for spots to include the last two fetches, Verdant Catacombs & Arid Mesa, as well (though I don't currently own them)


Fleshwrither - Going back in the deck for the sole purpose of being another form of tutor. Instead of using Liliana as a sorcery speed planeswalker that does very little, I'd rather have a sorcery speed tutor for a useful creature that might close the game.


Goblin Settler - Land destruction with a much more useful creature type.


Goblin Trashmaster - Much better as a goblin form of artifact removal. It's repeatable, can be done on command, and buffs all of your goblins. Absolute worst-case scenario, it's a Tuktuk Scrapper that has to kill itself. But in most other cases, it's much more useful.


Chainer, Nightmare Adept - I've definitely been convinced by my testing (and your arguments) that this card deserves a spot, though I'm not ready to remove Olivia, Mobilized for War for this spot. I think more haste is probably useful in this deck with all the mana tappers we have, and both Olivia and Chainer bring unique secondary effects that make them interesting and give us multiple forms of discard alongside the haste benefit.



That's all for now! Some of you may be wondering where Mana Echoes is in this update. Well, I've really gone back and forth on this card. I know some people swear by it, but in my personal experience, I've rarely had it go off. More often than not, I see it binned (since we Grenzo more than we draw), and that's disappointing when it could've been a creature instead. When I do actually move to cast it, my opponents are extremely quick to respond as they know it's a game closer. This usually ends up in a counter or Grenzo being targeted with removal before it resolves.

My other concern is that including it makes me think more about creature types than I'd really care to. I don't want to maximize my number of goblins just for the sake of an ideal scenario that might not happen. So all that to say, I'm not writing it off, but I'm definitely not convinced from my recent playtesting. In a goblin heavy version, with maybe even some draw and tutors thrown in, I could see it being amazing. But I don't feel my list (with its specific goals of gameplay) is the right home for it. Hope that explains my reasoning behind excluding it for now. If it works for you, then great! It just hasn't been working for me.

Hope you all have an amazing weekend, and for those of you in the states, happy 4th of July!

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

The primer is now updated! Here is the list of changes:
  • Main list updated with all current changes
  • Main list foiled to reflect current foiling process (I know, I'm a madman)
  • Nonfoil version included below the main version so people can view a more accurate cost of building the deck
  • Minor updates to the Budget Version (will be looking at making a few more)
  • Addition of "Pre-Game Politicking" to the Strategy section
  • Removed the "Win-Con" section of card type as I felt it inaccurately put emphasis on only a few cards, therefore, detracting from many other wincons
  • A few additions to the Credits section
  • One more big update not mentioned in my previous post:

I seemed to have missed a major other change I made in my prior post. You may notice that the primer has removed an entire section of card types from the list. Our one sorcery has finally fallen and been replaced by a much better slot. This was another card that I was blind to because it's been in the list for so long, but I'm confident its replacement is much better.



Removed:
Dread Return - I've had a lot of scenarios where I flipped this into the GY, but didn't have three creatures that I wanted to sacrifice to get an important target back out. It's also sorcery speed, which hurts if you flip it on an opponent's turn but need the effect now. I'm removing it for a creature source of recursion that also just further improves our creature/noncreature ratio.



Added:
Balthor the Defiled - Amazing card that can provide the opportunity for massive comebacks. He also works at instant speed (unlike Dread Return), which means flipping into him on an opponent's turn (or in response to a Cyclonic Rift) can win you the game outright.

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kenbaumann
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Post by kenbaumann » 3 years ago

A @snowfox54119 update day is a good day.

I like your new edits and the streamlined and updated primer! You've got me considering making a few changes to my list: cutting Dread Return (which has also often felt dead in my experience); replacing the slow-but-Scry lands like Spinerock Knoll and Temple of Malice with basics, since I'm fully fetched-out and gotta go fast; and adding Cavern of Souls (which I should've done awhile ago) and Chainer, Nightmare Adept. I've been considering adding Gamble for awhile as a way to bin an at-worst recurrable artifact, so that might replace Dread Return for me. I don't know—I'd also love to increase my creature count to 56+.

Any reason why you're running Rakdos Signet over Arcane Signet? And I also recommend Prismatic Vista as another fetch. Lastly, Fire Prophecy, though a dead flip, has been a great early-game card—I've often used it to kill an opponent's just-as-dangerous Commander with the three damage, then setup my first flip while also drawing into lands or something useful.

I'm glad you got around to testing Mana Echoes—a card which one me a game on Turn 4 (again) just this week, lol. You're right that Mana Echoes puts opponents on high alert. Though every time I've gotten a beginning step with Mana Echoes on the field, I've won the game. To me that's a small price to pay for one dead flip. And my meta already knows that Grenzo is a powerful (i.e. Turn 4-6) deck so that target is already tattooed between my shoulder blades.

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Thanks, @kenbaumann ! Every time you talk about your experiences with Mana Echoes it makes me rethink my decision lol. I'm going to go ahead and add it to the Alternatives List for now and will continue to playtest it off and on. I agree that it gets ridiculous when it's allowed to stick, I just haven't gotten it to in my past several play sessions (which is subjective and not enough for me to feel conclusive in either direction).

Prismatic Vista is definitely another one to include. Though, I'm now trying to pick up foil versions if possible instead of nonfoils which makes it more difficult.

Fire Prophecy does have a lot of merit, but I'm not sure if I want to include it in my list. The more noncreature cards I add, the riskier my flips become. So if I throw in a noncreature card, I'd either want it to be recurrable (like our artifacts) and/or have a massive impact on the game. If I was going to throw in a nonland card right now, it'd honestly be Mana Echoes for the reason you explained: when it sticks, it's game over. FP doesn't do enough for me personally to want to include the risk.

As for Rakdos Signet vs Arcane Signet, both definitely have their advantages. I like that RS can give you both colors of mana by itself in case you draw exclusively colorless lands. But the real kicker for why I picked RS over AS is that I have RS in foil :P IMO, either one would work though.


Also as a side note, I like how pleasing it is to the eyes to see your list have 1 each of enchantment, sorcery, and instant.

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Man, it's been a crazy and productive Friday for this primer. After mulling over the fact that there are so many cool ways to build Grenzo and there are so many cards I don't run that others do, I got the inspiration to include highlighted decklists that have been shared here within the primer.

So the "Alternative Meta Picks" list has been massively revamped into the "Alternative Picks and Decklists" section. This section will now not only discuss other cards to consider but also show additional decklists as inspirational sources for other aspiring dungeoneers.

Currently, I only have three decklists in the section:
  • Goblins by oldmangrieves
  • Digger Loop Intensified by sampersand
  • Perfectly Balanced by kenbaumann
So if you feel like you have a unique build/theme to share, please do! I can't promise that every list posted here will make it into the primer, but the more resources for us dungeoneers, the better.

(The credits section has also been updated as well to reflect these additions).

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Post by ThePillowman » 3 years ago

With the recent spoiling of Disciple of the Vault in Double Masters and the MASSIVE emphasis on artifacts in that set, plus some potential Jumpstart goodies, is it worth talking about potential additions?
  • Mox Opal and Mana Crypt: if we can afford them, they're probably better than a Signet and Burnshied Hart, right?
  • Alloy Myr: It does the same thing as Iron and Leaden, but better. In this build we're more likely to flip them than T2 play them, right?
Other ideas from the Jumpstart:
  • Ogre Slumlord: we have a lot of cards that die in this deck or kill opponents creatures...to make more creatures...to sac for more mana...

Arkren
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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

ThePillowman wrote:
3 years ago
With the recent spoiling of Disciple of the Vault in Double Masters and the MASSIVE emphasis on artifacts in that set, plus some potential Jumpstart goodies, is it worth talking about potential additions?
  • Mox Opal and Mana Crypt: if we can afford them, they're probably better than a Signet and Burnshied Hart, right?
  • Alloy Myr: It does the same thing as Iron and Leaden, but better. In this build we're more likely to flip them than T2 play them, right?
Other ideas from the Jumpstart:
  • Ogre Slumlord: we have a lot of cards that die in this deck or kill opponents creatures...to make more creatures...to sac for more mana...
about the moxes and the crypt... yes, "mana > hand", but lets also not forget that "creature at the bottom > artifact at the bottom" and these three dont help with that. signet neither but the hart is a creature and i think that i has preference for that reason only.
the rest of the cards i can see in the deck if you have the slots.

i have personally defended falkenrath in this forum and i run him in my deck, not only is he redundancy, that flying part is also really good and is "any" creature, which is important to stop opponent combos. is also "target" oppoent instead of "each" but if an opponent has a loop that needs a creature to die that falkenrath is maybe the only thing stopping him from winning. is also a cooperative card if another opponent has the creatures that need to die so that a third opponent dies instead of winning

will say the disciple of the vault probably combos with a lot of artifact creatures in these list, but he doesnt do much by himself sadly. as for the myr, in my personal opinion, i run the other two not for mana fixing but more as mana rocks that can come from a flip... so that 2 cmc is important, at least for me. is not the flip that i want to see, but is better to see them that seeing a card that is not a creature, they are cool on hand. i do also run Palladium Myr in my list becuase he taps for 2 mana even tough is not colored.

the ogre looks good enough, probably worth a try, but i would put Pawn of Ulamog before him in the list if you only have one slot free

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Post by ThePillowman » 3 years ago

@Arkren here's what I'd envision for possible adjustments (and group discussion):

-1Nim Deathmantle
+1 Chrome Mox / Mox Opal / Mana Crypt

If I could afford to make this swap, I would. I personally shy away from paying ND's cost that it's just become a card I don't enjoy playing. I'd much rather be faster on mana.

-1 Epitaph Golem
+1 Alloy Myr

Similar sentiment to the above, I'd rather focus on mana and keep digging, though I 100% understand why Golem needs to stay.

-1 Mesmeric Fiend
+1 Ogre Slumlord

So, if we're speaking objectively, it feels like Mesmeric Fiend has the lowest impact of every ETB we're packing (happy to discuss!). Knowing how much sacc'ing this deck does, and how focused on creature removal it is, in addition to its combos, being able to casually generate additional tokens just feels like a godsend. A few synergies to call out:
  • Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Ogre Slumlord + Furystoke Giant is a one-sided, nontoken creature boardwipe, since the rats have deathtouch (assuming we're hasty). SALIVATING.
Also, since the rats we'd create are all deathtouch, we'd have viable ground blockers if we're concerned about someone at the table going aggro-heavy. PLUS this guy activates when anyone's non-token creatures die, so in the event of a boardwipe, we'd get to reap the benefits and not be starting completely from square one. From a Vorthos/lore standpoint, it 100% makes sense that the Ogre Slumlord would need to be let out of the dungeon.

While it is a non-combo with Pawn of Ulamog, I think there's just so many ways to get utility and value here that it's worth including. I'd love to chat about this one!

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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Loving the discussion and while I feel pretty strongly about keeping Epitaph Golem and Nim Deathmantle in, I can definitely see the argument for Ogre Slumlord. I do agree that the effect has some great synergy (and the vorthos fits right in). I also agree that Mesmeric Fiend can be a low impact card at times, but it has saved my butt a few times as well ripping out a cyclonic rift from someone's hand. I'll have to test it out.

Also that Furystoke Giant combo with Anger in the GY sounds super juicy.

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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Also to add to the discussion of Falkenrath Noble (as well as Blood Artist), they can be great additions to the deck! I struggle with finding slots that I'd want to take out for either of them as I like most of the creatures in my deck and enjoy the diversity of the current list. But if you really want to lean into the aristocrats theme, these would be perfect additions. I believe they're already in my alternate picks list (and if they aren't, they definitely should be).

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Post by kenbaumann » 3 years ago

I plan to test Ogre Slumlord and Blood Artist (as an additional aristocrats payoff source that's low-CMC/doesn't feel bad to cast from hand in a pinch) soon.

I've already removed Nim Deathmantle and Thornbite Staff for Mox Amber and another Creature—so I'm completely devoted to the "flip until a Creature presents you a wincon" plan. (My list again, for your convenience.) My only combo-enabling non-Creature Artifact is The Cauldron of Eternity; I haven't won with it lately, but it just feels so totally Grenzo.

I'd never cut Epitaph Golem. Digger Loops are powerful, so I don't want to make their possibility rarer.

One of my goals has been to gradually find more Creatures that are low-CMC (i.e. <4) so that if I have to cast them in an emergency, I can without feeling bad. So far this has been a useful principle—just the other day I won a game off a Cavern of Souls into Moggcatcher + Lightning Crafter, then responding to the Crafter trigger by tutoring up Kiki. At this point in time, I'm very confident in my list. It is consistently and surprisingly powerful—I just love it.

(And I'm also very glad to see Mana Echoes being reprinted in Double Masters!)

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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

Arkren wrote:
3 years ago
about the moxes and the crypt... yes, "mana > hand", but lets also not forget that "creature at the bottom > artifact at the bottom" and these three dont help with that. signet neither but the hart is a creature and i think that i has preference for that reason only.
I think this is sort of a specious argument in this context. Mox and crypt shouldn't replace ramp creatures, they should replace LANDS. They functionally do the same thing, they're just better because they aren't one-per-turn, and their downside is negligible. While they're a dead flip off the bottom, they're no deader than lands are.

It's a fine argument against rocks that cost actual mana, though, since those can't just easily replace lands.

Just put together the list to try out, with a couple substitutions (Goblin SettlerRavenous Baboons, Sling-Gang LieutenantChittering Witch...those were the closest approximations I could find in my collection).
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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DirkGently
My wins are unconditional
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Post by DirkGently » 3 years ago

So I ran the deck a few times and figured I'd contribute my feedback, although unfortunately it might not be very helpful.

The first note is that the deck tends to combo off fairly quickly, and usually that's the only way it intends to win. That's not necessarily a problem, but it didn't jive with me and the people I was playing against.

The second note is a more difficult problem, because it's probably unavoidable for a commander with an ability best used eot which has uncertain results that impact your subsequent turn and can interact in many complex ways - especially when that ability can be activated many times. The issue this created was that it was essentially impossible to plan anything and there were an enormous number of lines and actions, and thus I ended up hogging the clock worse than maybe any deck I've ever played (possible exception of geth who has the same issue). I imagine this becomes less of an issue with more experience with the deck (Which isn't Really true of geth) but I doubt it ever goes away. Short of creating a low-creature build (which seems kinda stupid) I think this issue is unfortunately built into the commander, although cards like heartstone and dockside certainly exacerbate it.

Because of those two issues, no one was having fun, so I switched decks after a few games.

One other modification I didn't mention btw: I swapped two basics for a badlands and a mana crypt - obviously these both boosted the power considerably.
Perm Decks
Phelddagrif - Kaervek - Golos - Zirilan

Flux Decks
Gollum - Lobelia - Minthara - Plargg2 - Solphim - Otharri - Graaz - Ratchet - Soundwave - Slicer - Gale - Rootha - Kagemaro - Blorpityblorpboop - Kayla - SliverQueen - Ivy - Falco - Gluntch - Charlatan/Wilson - Garth - Kros - Anthousa - Shigeki - Light-Paws - Lukka - Sefris - Ebondeath - Rokiric - Garth - Nixilis - Grist - Mavinda - Kumano - Nezahal - Mavinda - Plargg - Plargg - Extus - Plargg - Oracle - Kardur - Halvar - Tergrid - Egon - Cosima - Halana+Livio - Jeska+Falthis+Obosh - Yeva - Akiri+Zirda - Lady Sun - Nahiri - Korlash - Overlord+Zirda - Chisei - Athreos2 - Akim - Cazur+Ukkima - Otrimi - Otrimi - Kalamax - Ayli+Lurrus - Clamilton - Gonti - Heliod2 - Ayula - Thassa2 - Gallia - Purphoros2 - Rankle - Uro - Rayami - Gargos - Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa - Ashling1 - Angus - Arcum - Talrand - Chainer - Higure - Kumano - Scion - Teferi1 - Uyo - Sisters
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote
Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena
Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

DirkGently wrote:
3 years ago
So I ran the deck a few times and figured I'd contribute my feedback, although unfortunately it might not be very helpful.

The first note is that the deck tends to combo off fairly quickly, and usually that's the only way it intends to win. That's not necessarily a problem, but it didn't jive with me and the people I was playing against.

The second note is a more difficult problem, because it's probably unavoidable for a commander with an ability best used eot which has uncertain results that impact your subsequent turn and can interact in many complex ways - especially when that ability can be activated many times. The issue this created was that it was essentially impossible to plan anything and there were an enormous number of lines and actions, and thus I ended up hogging the clock worse than maybe any deck I've ever played (possible exception of geth who has the same issue). I imagine this becomes less of an issue with more experience with the deck (Which isn't Really true of geth) but I doubt it ever goes away. Short of creating a low-creature build (which seems kinda stupid) I think this issue is unfortunately built into the commander, although cards like heartstone and dockside certainly exacerbate it.

Because of those two issues, no one was having fun, so I switched decks after a few games.

One other modification I didn't mention btw: I swapped two basics for a badlands and a mana crypt - obviously these both boosted the power considerably.

That's totally fine, my friend. I realize my list is pretty combo oriented, so you and your playgroup have to be fairly ok with that. But there are definitely ways to make the deck more casual and less combo oriented. If you wanted to slow the deck down, I'd recommend taking out the primary combo pieces (Ashnod's Altar, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Nim Deathmantle, etc.) and maybe even take out some fast mana pieces if you really want to slow it down.

As for the pace, it does take a while to get used to it and deal with the many decisions presented to you. I typically think of the end of the last opponents' turn as my actual turn (since my turn usually ends in draw/land/pass). It can get cloggy once things start revving up, no denying that either, but you definitely get better at navigating it and moving quicker each time with practice. I find that if I start getting a massive amount of flips in one turn (like with Heartstone), it's easier to let lower impact ETB's just stack and keep flipping. That way you can quickly flip the bottom 10+ and then move things along from there. This prevents interruptions with something like Imperial Recruiter and Solemn Simulacrum from massively extending your action time.

It's different strokes for different folks. But either way, I appreciate your insight and for trying the deck out!

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Hyrkh
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Location: Coevorden
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Post by Hyrkh » 3 years ago

After reading this primer I really got excited to build myself a Grenzo deck. So I'm wondering where to start, what are core cards to make start of a Grenzo deck?
Knowledge is Power!

Commander decks:
Meren - Prossh - Krenko - Damia - Riku - Wort - Edric
Nethroi - Kenrith - Roon - Jhoira - Marath - Selvala
Yidris - Talrand - Shu Yun - Kelsien - Grenzo (soonish)

Wife's Commander decks:
Kemba - Oloro - Kaalia - Rhys - Teysa

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Hyrkh wrote:
3 years ago
After reading this primer I really got excited to build myself a Grenzo deck. So I'm wondering where to start, what are core cards to make start of a Grenzo deck?

Glad to hear it! I'd take a look at the budget decklist as it's a fairly inexpensive way to jump in and it has most of the core cards of the deck. Let me know if you have any other questions on anything!

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Outcryqq
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Location: Indiana, USA

Post by Outcryqq » 3 years ago

I've been playing Grenzo for quite some time. Fox, not sure if you care to discuss spoiled cards before Zendikar Rising's entire set is spoiled, but:
SPOILER
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Valakut Awakening
2R
Instant
Put any number of cards from your hand on the bottom of your library, then draw that many cards plus one.

Valakut Stoneforge
Land
Valakut Stoneforge enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add R.

The only con is that it's an instant if you flip it off of Grenzo, which is a big knock against it. If you happen to draw it, at instant speed, you can pitch your hand to the bottom of the deck in any order you want, which means ordering the bottom as Grenzo-friendly, and refill your hand. And in a pinch, it also can be an ETB tapped land which, while not great, is a decent backup plan.

Any value to this deck?

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snowfox54119
Posts: 68
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote:
3 years ago
I've been playing Grenzo for quite some time. Fox, not sure if you care to discuss spoiled cards before Zendikar Rising's entire set is spoiled, but:
SPOILER
Show
Hide
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30261&view=unread#unread
Valakut Awakening
2R
Instant
Put any number of cards from your hand on the bottom of your library, then draw that many cards plus one.

Valakut Stoneforge
Land
Valakut Stoneforge enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add R.

The only con is that it's an instant if you flip it off of Grenzo, which is a big knock against it. If you happen to draw it, at instant speed, you can pitch your hand to the bottom of the deck in any order you want, which means ordering the bottom as Grenzo-friendly, and refill your hand. And in a pinch, it also can be an ETB tapped land which, while not great, is a decent backup plan.

Any value to this deck?
I was actually just talking with my friend about this one, and I'm considering testing replacing a land for it. The ability to have it be a bottom fixer OR a land on demand is pretty sweet, and I think that flexibility in it makes it a nice addition that won't even change the natural balance of creature-noncreature ratio.

So without any testing, my opinion on this card is that it's a strong contender to be added to the list.

Arkren
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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

is a tapped mountain that can set your library for a win at instant speed while drawing you cards.

grenzo´s casino decks have a little more than 50% of having a creature flip, that means that usually it takes 4 mana rounded up to obtain a creature at random from the bottom. that means that as long as you can put 2 creature cards a the bottom with this spell you are gaining mana. plus, the creatures that you put at the bottom are not random flips anymore.

i think that replacing a regular mountain for it is not going to be a problem. in my opinion is an autoinclude in any grenzo deck, there is simply no way that all of your 35~ lands are better than this one

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