Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value

Arkren
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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

valki is cool, but i dont really know if he fits in the deck to be honest. his effect has nothing to do with grenzo. is still a cool effect and the walker part is also good, so in a way is a good stuff card that is not a dead flip.

there is also the new rakdos pathway that clearly enters the deck if you take out a basic for it.

other than that, i have seen all the rakdos cards and all the artifact cards on scyfall and there is not really anything for grenzo in this set as of now.

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Arkren wrote:
3 years ago
valki is cool, but i dont really know if he fits in the deck to be honest. his effect has nothing to do with grenzo. is still a cool effect and the walker part is also good, so in a way is a good stuff card that is not a dead flip.

there is also the new rakdos pathway that clearly enters the deck if you take out a basic for it.

other than that, i have seen all the rakdos cards and all the artifact cards on scyfall and there is not really anything for grenzo in this set as of now.
I have to agree that, unfortunately, there's not really anything in this set for Grenzo. Sadly, many creatures in the set are just 1 power away from becoming useable and busted (looking at you, Goldspan Dragon).

Valki, God of Lies is a cool card for sure, but it does kind of go against the philosophy of the deck with pumping your mana into Grenzo instead of casting other things. So while he's a phenomenal value card, I don't think this deck is the proper home for him. So all that to say, my unfortunate review of Kaldheim is that there's really not much to look at for this deck (aside from Blightstep Pathway // Searstep Pathway.

I'm curious to see how Strixhaven plays out with the possibility of Creature/Instant or Sorcery MDFC's, because that could potentially be a great way to include instants/sorceries in the deck without messing with creature count.

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Post by Minyiky » 3 years ago

Just wanted to say a massive thank you, I have been following this thread for a long time, since soon after I pulled grenzo in a conspiracy draft a couple of years ago but only now getting around to the idea of building it, One question though, how often have you been keeping the budget list updated?

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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

Minyiky wrote:
3 years ago
Just wanted to say a massive thank you, I have been following this thread for a long time, since soon after I pulled grenzo in a conspiracy draft a couple of years ago but only now getting around to the idea of building it, One question though, how often have you been keeping the budget list updated?
i have seen both right now... the budget list is maybe not totally updated but could very well be, is a matter of choice after all. but i will also say this, the budget and normal list are very similar, and some of the cards that change are not even expensive so i would try to use the normal list and simply cut the cards that you cant or dont want to buy, which are mostly lands. my personal mana base is quite budget and i dont have any problems so is not very important.

apart from lands, there are like 4 creatures that could be considered expensive: Imperial Recruiter ,Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker ,Dockside Extortionist and Goblin Settler

of those 4, the recruiter and the setler are less needed in my opinion. all 4 of them and also others are perfectly replaceable

PD: not related, but the other day i played an edh game with grenzo, mulliganed to six and became the archenemy on turn 0 for doing that, which in my opinion is quite cool for a deck to acomplish, im pretty sure that no other deck can be more threatening by mulliganing

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Post by Toshi » 3 years ago

Hmm, so i stumbled upon Stomping Slabs... Thoughts?

I know it isn't Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge and several of you play rather combo centric builds, but to set up 7 without requirements (other than having a library of at least 7, lel) sounds legit for mid power builds.

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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Minyiky wrote:
3 years ago
Just wanted to say a massive thank you, I have been following this thread for a long time, since soon after I pulled grenzo in a conspiracy draft a couple of years ago but only now getting around to the idea of building it, One question though, how often have you been keeping the budget list updated?
I haven't been as diligent with updating the budget list, but as @Arkren already mentioned, the list is very flexible and budget-friendly if you take out a few specific cards. That's why I love Grenzo so much, he can play with any type of audience because you can freely swap in/out any creature that meets the simple criteria of "power 3 or less".

Toshi wrote:
3 years ago
Hmm, so i stumbled upon Stomping Slabs... Thoughts?

I know it isn't Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge and several of you play rather combo centric builds, but to set up 7 without requirements (other than having a library of at least 7, lel) sounds legit for mid power builds.
It seems like a pretty low-impact card to me. I've found that stacking the bottom of your deck can often backfire on you if you find out the top cards of your library were mostly lands/noncreature artifacts. This has happened to me more than once where I screwed myself over for the next few flips and it's the major reason I removed all of the Hideaway lands from the list. That's why I'd personally stay away from it. Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge let's you pick and choose cards that are already stranded in your hand.

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Post by Outcryqq » 3 years ago

Is this a good spot to talk about Grenzo, Dungeon Warden's old-frame version in Time Spiral Remastered? Personally, I don't think his art is great with the old frame, though in general I'm a fan of the old frame. Also, my copy was altered by the artist to look like Rick Grimes from The Walking Dead (a LONG time ago, before the crossover!) so I will continue to use that copy regardless.

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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Outcryqq wrote:
3 years ago
Is this a good spot to talk about Grenzo, Dungeon Warden's old-frame version in Time Spiral Remastered? Personally, I don't think his art is great with the old frame, though in general I'm a fan of the old frame. Also, my copy was altered by the artist to look like Rick Grimes from The Walking Dead (a LONG time ago, before the crossover!) so I will continue to use that copy regardless.
I hadn't even noticed they had chosen him as an old border card. I am a fan of old border foils, but I think I agree with you that it doesn't really fit in the old frames. Plus, I like that the foil M25 version has the conspiracy logo imprinted in the text area, so I'm gonna stick with that version as well.

If it's cheap enough, I might pick up one just in case.

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Post by Gribbet » 3 years ago

snowfox54119 wrote:
3 years ago
It seems like a pretty low-impact card to me. I've found that stacking the bottom of your deck can often backfire on you if you find out the top cards of your library were mostly lands/noncreature artifacts. This has happened to me more than once where I screwed myself over for the next few flips and it's the major reason I removed all of the Hideaway lands from the list. That's why I'd personally stay away from it. Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge let's you pick and choose cards that are already stranded in your hand.
I started putting a Grenzo deck together post-pandemic so I haven't really gotten a chance to play test it much, but I was wondering about everyone's thoughts on Jar of Eyeballs. Other cards with this effect I can see putting garbage on the bottom, but I feel that Jar can dig deep enough that you should get a fair number of good hits. It's also cheap enough that Goblin Engineer can get it back if you flip it.

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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

Gribbet wrote:
3 years ago
I started putting a Grenzo deck together post-pandemic so I haven't really gotten a chance to play test it much, but I was wondering about everyone's thoughts on Jar of Eyeballs. Other cards with this effect I can see putting garbage on the bottom, but I feel that Jar can dig deep enough that you should get a fair number of good hits. It's also cheap enough that Goblin Engineer can get it back if you flip it.
maybe in a more casual meta... i see some problems with this card, i could not play it properly in my local meta that is for sure, but again, maybe if you play more casually... or maybe another more aristocrat-centric deck that wants to play more things from hand and just make one big grenzo turn...

for this shell, the first problem is that is not a creature, a dead flip is always bad for this strategy, the cost of 3 and the activation of 3 is also a problem in my opinion, since that is 3 grenzo flips that you are not doing... which is 1 to 2 creatures less since grenzo should release a creature 50% of the time. but the biggest problem is the eyeball counters, they are dependant on your board state too much. by itself this card does nothing, you need creatures dying and opponents can respond in a lot of ways to prevent that. given the 50% creature ratio, you would need 6 eyeball counters to break even with simply blind flipping for two turns. the 4th creature dying with this artifact on the field starts making it better than blind flipping, could happen, but i dont see it happening too often and when it doesnt happen is a dead card

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Post by Gribbet » 3 years ago

That makes sense. My meta that I played in before was more casual and I'm leaning more towards a goblin build. I like that it triggers off of any creature dying and is reusable, but if you're trying to go off in one turn it becomes quite a bit worse.

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Post by Gribbet » 2 years ago

I was looking at a couple of more cards. Author of Shadows for some graveyard hate and maybe getting something good. And Madblind Mountain, for the cost of a flip you can shuffle, it could be good if you know you have a dead flip coming. The coming into play tapped is a little painful.

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Post by XamIllustration » 2 years ago

Really inspired by your primer to build one for myself. I was interested after seeing the Command Zone video with Josh playing it, but I put it as a back burner as his decklist have some pricey cards, till stumble across to your primer recently. Using the combination of your budget and original list (with some suggestions from the comments, yes, I have read all the comments).

I am slowly getting some of the cards, I have few more to get at the end of this month. I have put together my list on the TappedOut site so I self-test it using their play test feature. Just to learn the interaction and the cards itself. :shuffling:

Here's my list:
Decklist

Commander:

Approximate Total Cost:

It's still a work in progress, especially in the land section. I am thinking of putting Syr Konrad, the Grim in the deck as it synergies with the whole leaving graveyard or sacking the creatures. Just need to figure out which card to take out. :hmm:

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Post by Gribbet » 2 years ago

Keep in mind that Syr Konrad, the Grim has 5 power, so he is going to be hard to flip with Grenzo. Flayer of the Hatebound is a similar effect and is still pretty tough at 4 power.

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Post by XamIllustration » 2 years ago

Gribbet wrote:
2 years ago
Keep in mind that Syr Konrad, the Grim has 5 power, so he is going to be hard to flip with Grenzo. Flayer of the Hatebound is a similar effect and is still pretty tough at 4 power.
That's true, but it's a deck of luck. I can just put it in the bottom of my deck again and then shuffle the deck via Burnished Hart or any other shuffle the library cards (either that's on the battlefield or use any put under the library cards, then Grenzo it out) to crack it to shuffle the library to get a chance to draw it by luck. Isn't that part of the deck's theme? :cool:

But hey, I am still going to test it and see how it goes.

Edit: There's a chance that the goblin cards (Mad Auntie and Goblin Trashmaster) that buffs up goblins might help to get the power to 5 if Grenzo already got an +1/+1 counter on him and Syr Konrad would be flippable. I forgot to mention that. But that's in the MTG magic land of possibility...

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Post by Arkren » 2 years ago

XamIllustration wrote:
2 years ago

That's true, but it's a deck of luck. I can just put it in the bottom of my deck again and then shuffle the deck via Burnished Hart or any other shuffle the library cards (either that's on the battlefield or use any put under the library cards, then Grenzo it out) to crack it to shuffle the library to get a chance to draw it by luck. Isn't that part of the deck's theme? :cool:
you are more than welcome to try the card of course, but i want to say that even if the deck is luck based and from afar it looks like is everything a chance game, this deck is quite consistent. it looks like grenzo is all fun and games, but this deck combos out of nowhere in ways that surprises even the pilot. and the power of the flipped creatures matters a lot in this regard, to the point that i try to limit even the power3 ones if i can to make sure that i can find a target always. i only have 12 or 13 power3 creatures in my list out of 55, the rest of them are power2 or less

3 power creatures are still good for the deck because is a good curve for grenzo, a turn 3 grenzo+1 follow by a turn4 two flips is good, but power4+... is just too big a difference, i used to run Flayer of the Hatebound but ended up removing it because usually it ended up in the graveyard, and that card is probably better than syr konrad, it has undying so is harder to remove from the game than him, it does targeted damage, and it has one less power. sure, syr konrad deals damage to everyone, but both of them can combo with the same loop, so everyones is going to die regardless, if you cant combo, dealing targeted damage is almost always better than draining everyone for 2.

but again, try it and tell us how it goes

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Post by snowfox54119 » 2 years ago

Arkren wrote:
2 years ago
you are more than welcome to try the card of course, but i want to say that even if the deck is luck based and from afar it looks like is everything a chance game, this deck is quite consistent. it looks like grenzo is all fun and games, but this deck combos out of nowhere in ways that surprises even the pilot. and the power of the flipped creatures matters a lot in this regard, to the point that i try to limit even the power3 ones if i can to make sure that i can find a target always. i only have 12 or 13 power3 creatures in my list out of 55, the rest of them are power2 or less

3 power creatures are still good for the deck because is a good curve for grenzo, a turn 3 grenzo+1 follow by a turn4 two flips is good, but power4+... is just too big a difference, i used to run Flayer of the Hatebound but ended up removing it because usually it ended up in the graveyard, and that card is probably better than syr konrad, it has undying so is harder to remove from the game than him, it does targeted damage, and it has one less power. sure, syr konrad deals damage to everyone, but both of them can combo with the same loop, so everyones is going to die regardless, if you cant combo, dealing targeted damage is almost always better than draining everyone for 2.

but again, try it and tell us how it goes
Agreed with everything said here. But also agree that you should feel free to test beyond the primer. Make your own way, but I have a feeling you'll find it ends up being a dead card usually. You might find ways to recur it via the other creatures you flip, but Syr Konrad is more of a win-con with an already online engine and this deck already has enough of those.


Also to any of those who were wondering, I wasn't impressed with anything from Strixhaven. Nothing really stood out as even worth mentioning, so I'm hoping that either MH2 or the new DnD set brings some new toys (it would be disappointing if the new set about dungeons didn't give toys to the dungeon king).

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Post by manugl84 » 2 years ago

@snowfox54119

Maybe author of shadows could be interesting in a GY-heavy meta. Just be careful with clones haha.

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Post by snowfox54119 » 2 years ago

manugl84 wrote:
2 years ago
@snowfox54119

Maybe author of shadows could be interesting in a GY-heavy meta. Just be careful with clones haha.
The reason why I wouldn't personally run it is that it requires a mana investment that can take away from flips instead. It's definitely not a bad choice though if you want GY exiles, cause it does that in addition to having an extra upside that can be useful. So I'll add that one to the alternate picks list!

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Post by XamIllustration » 2 years ago

While I am waiting patiently for payday, to get some of the cards I still need to get. I have 9 left to go. I playtested in the TappedOut's playtest feature for awhile (the waiting game is killing me :x). It's a good place to learn the interactions and shenanigans,

I noticed to the deck usually go off between turn 5-10. I don't remember in the primer, but I know once you get the certain pieces that can help you get the other pieces to get the ticking bomb going. This what I like about this version of the deck, there's many ways to get going and it's almost a toolkit deck in case you need to sort out a problem (something like the Meteor Golem or any other board control cards).

You can go off quickly or just slowly and patiently under the radar build the ticking bomb. It's almost like Grenzo puts the right monsters/characters/tools in his dungeon and then release them out once he got the right puzzle pieces to take over the castle. :smirk:

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

I had to jump into this conversation after reading the last posts. snowfox54119, I'm a huge fan, I've been playing a lot with your deck. or almost... I use a goblin gardener because I couldn't find the settler and I use the chupacabra because I haven't had a chance to buy the defiler yet so I had to include something.

It takes some practice to get good with it, as it has so many variables. Below some my learnings, I played more than +20 games:

- You need to know very well the deck and the different ways it can combo. Don't get discouraged the first times you play as it gets some practice to really understand how it works. you will lose a lot in the beginning. I noticed I sometimes had no idea which pieces I needed to look for when I flipped tutors (Matron, imperial, engineer...)
- From the point I made above, when in doubt on what to fetch, go get Dockside Extortionist.
- Don't include Gwyn. anything about 3 power is a waste. Once they start seeing you get good flips they immediately target or shutdown your commander. if you have to pay the commander tax + spend mana on extra counters, you become a lot slower. Let's imagine someone removed your grenzo once and you need to bring him back for Gwyn or other 5power cards, you will need to spend: 2 tax + 1 red + 1 black + 5 for counters. thats 9 mana. forget it. Less flips = less chances to win.
- keep it to a minimum the dead flips. Reito Lantern on paper is an excellent card but you need to cast it. to make it worth your time you need to pay 2 for the cost + 3 to get a creature to the bottom + 2 to activate grenzo, thats 7 mana. If you happen to flip the lantern thats 2 mana to the bin, not good.
- Play politics, you need your opponents to know that you are harmless, you're just a luck based deck, talk your way out of removals. disruption sets you back by a lot as everything in your deck needs Grenzo to work, as snowfox54119 mentions, your objective is to ramp as much as you can and get grenzo out asap.
- Don't flip on your turn!!!! wait until the last player before you and at the end of his turn, you flip. bad flips? untap your lands, prepare your next turn and wait again for another round. remember you want to look as harmless as possible, you can win out of nowhere. be patient. If you flip some key creatures with tapping abilities during your turn, like moggcatcher, siege-gang, welder or engineer, your opponents will have 3 full turns to deal with them. if you flip them just before your turn, you get to activate them right away. be patient!
- Some exceptions on the above: someone board wipes or targets your grenzo
- You don't care about drawing cards, which is counter intuitive in MTG. Solemn simulacrum is a ramping card, its not meant to give you card advantage. In fact I don't mind to mulligan to 6 or 5 as then I get to choose which cards I will flip right at the start.
- Discarding is your friend. I've had some fun games where I got asked to discard with Anger in hand. perfect. or with Chainer in hand / battlefield.
Last edited by zKtu 2 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

snowfox54119 wrote:
2 years ago
manugl84 wrote:
2 years ago
@snowfox54119

Maybe author of shadows could be interesting in a GY-heavy meta. Just be careful with clones haha.
The reason why I wouldn't personally run it is that it requires a mana investment that can take away from flips instead. It's definitely not a bad choice though if you want GY exiles, cause it does that in addition to having an extra upside that can be useful. So I'll add that one to the alternate picks list!
couldn't agree more.. ETBs (entering the battlefield) abilities are your best friend. mana should be dumped into flips unless you have a tapping win con (moggcatcher, engineer, cauldron...)

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Post by XamIllustration » 2 years ago

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zKtu wrote:
2 years ago
I had to jump into this conversation after reading the last posts. snowfox54119, I'm a huge fan, I've been playing a lot with your deck. or almost... I use a goblin gardener because I couldn't find the settler and I use the chupacabra because I haven't had a chance to buy the defiler yet so I had to include something.

It takes some practice to get good with it, as it has so many variables. Below some my learnings, I played more than +20 games:

- You need to know very well the deck and the different ways it can combo. Don't get discouraged the first times you play as it gets some practice to really understand how it works. you will lose a lot in the beginning. I noticed I sometimes had no idea which pieces I needed to look for when I flipped tutors (Matron, imperial, engineer...)
- From the point I made above, when in doubt on what to fetch, go get Dockside Extortionist.
- Don't include Gwyn. anything about 3 power is a waste. Once they start seeing you get good flips they immediately target or shutdown your commander. if you have to pay the commander tax + spend mana on extra counters, you become a lot slower. Let's imagine someone removed your grenzo once and you need to bring him back for Gwyn or other 5power cards, you will need to spend: 2 tax + 1 red + 1 black + 5 for counters. thats 9 mana. forget it. Less flips = less chances to win.
- keep it to a minimum the dead flips. Reito Lantern on paper is an excellent card but you need to cast it. to make it worth your time you need to pay 2 for the cost + 3 to get a creature to the bottom + 2 to activate grenzo, thats 7 mana. If you happen to flip the lantern thats 2 mana to the bin, not good.
- Play politics, you need your opponents to know that you are harmless, you're just a luck based deck, talk your way out of removals. disruption sets you back by a lot as everything in your deck needs Grenzo to work, as snowfox54119 mentions, your objective is to ramp as much as you can and get grenzo out asap.
- Don't flip on your turn!!!! wait until the last player before you and at the end of his turn, you flip. bad flips? untap your lands, prepare your next turn and wait again for another round. remember you want to look as harmless as possible, you can win out of nowhere. be patient. If you flip some key creatures with tapping abilities during your turn, like moggcatcher, siege-gang, welder or engineer, your opponents will have 3 full turns to deal with them. if you flip them just before your turn, you get to activate them right away. be patient!
- Some exceptions on the above: someone board wipes or targets your grenzo
- You don't care about drawing cards, which is counter intuitive in MTG. Solemn simulacrum is a ramping card, its not meant to give you card advantage. In fact I don't mind to mulligan to 6 or 5 as then I get to choose which cards I will flip right at the start.
- Discarding is your friend. I've had some fun games where I got asked to discard with Anger in hand. perfect. or with Chainer in hand / battlefield.
@zKtu I do understand the reason behind the exclusion of Syr Gwyn, but it's just a placeholder for Thornbite Staff, or something else. I actually wanted to try something else, instead of having another combo piece. There are more than enough combo's in the deck and plus the card, Thornbite Staf, itself a bit pricy for me. I was thinking I leave the Thornbite out for something of a (maybe) synergy card or a (definitely) ETB card. I will put Syr Gwyn card on the chopping block to test other avenues or ideas. It's so far the only 5 powered card in my decklist. There were a few ways I managed to get Gwyn into the battlefield. But I saw it was a hurdle to get it out. So it's a placeholder card till I get a better swap for it. Maybe the MH2 or DnD set that's coming out, might bring something great for the deck.

Playtesting it online (via TappedOut) I realized I do have to play an innocent player at the beginning (and flip in other player's turn), be aware of the interactions of the cards, and see interesting ideas for certain solutions to a problem. I totally started to see the ideas and the intricacy of the deck. Playing online helped alot to learn the deck faster and be prepared. Like what you pointed out in your list of great points, I have picked up some of your points in the online playtesting, it made a lot of sense and clear on how to play the deck.

I do totally read and appreciate everybody's input on my questions and queries. I always try to learn and understand the reasonings, but I am going to try my best to have fun with the deck I put together and see for myself if I am worthy of a Grenzo player. :) I know I am more of a patient reactive player in my playstyle, especially when playing Animar Morph, or a Tasigar EDh deck. So it might be in my ballpark of the style. @snowfox54119's Primer made me really excited to get the last bit of cards I have to order and get ready to have fun.

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Post by Arkren » 2 years ago

Young Necromancer 4B
Creature - Human Warlock (Uncommon)

When ~ enters the battlefield, you may exile two cards from your graveyard. If you do, return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield.

"Who needs imaginary friends when you could have dead friends?"

2/3
at last!! a playable creature for grenzo has arrived, we havent had a new one since forever. this one looks promising, is not an autoinclude, but i can see this one in the 99. i works similarly to whisper, but this one looks better in general. is a bad "first flip" but as long as you have a creature and two cards in the gy this card is powerful. late game with a full one this card is a second chance at anything,

edit: i think that is also better than Phyrexian Delver, same cmc, 1 less power, 1 more toughness... sure, this one requires you to exile 2 cards, but is also a may and doesnt kill you

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Post by XamIllustration » 2 years ago

Arkren wrote:
2 years ago
Young Necromancer
Seems like a good card, the may ability helps as you might have it flipped it out in the early early game and you have no graveyard (yet) or you don't want to exile the only two good cards in your graveyard unless it's lands... I agree, that it's more of a late game card to cheat out a card that you need as you go through the flips.

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