Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value

Hoboz
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Post by Hoboz » 3 years ago

Mana Echoes is absolutely amazing. I've been running it since before I ever saw your listen honestly. Personally speaking, I did use to run Goblin Marshal, but it is not necessary to bend your deck to work with Mana Echoes. Marshal just doesn't do anything besides tokens. Krenko is kinda the same, but at least has the Thornbite Staff win con + more tokens than Marshal potentially.

Tips on Mana Echoes if you haven't been stretching it to the extreme. Moment a token generator hits to board off Grenzo, the stack gets really %$#% hard.

ex: Grenzo in play, Siege Gang Commander etbs, both its trigger and the Mana Echoes trigger goes on stack. Let the tokens etb first, which results in 3 more Mana Echoes triggers. At this point, with 4 Mana Echoes triggers, I resolve them one at a time. This is because Mana Echoes checks on resolution and the more Grenzo activations you get, the more likely you'll get any amount of stacked creature types and compounding triggers.

imo, even if unoptimized, you should just win, so no need to really build around it much.


As for the other cards. Um, I really like Furystoke Giant and Pilgrim's Eye. I also like Whisper, Blood Liturgist and Corpse Connoisseur, but I can see an argument against them if you haven't been filling your graveyard quickly (I run Seasoned Pyromancer so I find recursion quickly enough). Maybe Warteye Witch should be considered if you want another useful Goblin. Another choice is Kozelik's Translator over Crypt Ghast, free 4 mana per turn cycle without any hoops to jump over.

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kenbaumann
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Post by kenbaumann » 3 years ago

@Hoboz: Oooh, I like that Eldrazi. Particularly nice with a Heartstone in play.

@snowfox54119 Welcome back!

My thoughts on cuts and replacements: I've increased my Goblin density, primarily because of Mana Echoes.

I like Furystoke Giant, particularly since my deck has more token production than ever before—doming any targets for 20+ damage in a pinch can be nice. Also he helps immensely against Planeswalkers. Pesky control or removal spell on the stack? Player removal is the best form of removal. Furystoke is a homie.

Here's my latest list. I've got it down to 34 lands and 10 non-Creature spells. I believe it's as lean and mean as it can be.

I've also done a sort of unintuitive thing with my Grenzo deck: I've cut Thornbite Staff and Nim Deathmantle. Even though they're both combo pieces and get around the Sorcery-speed Equip ability when certain conditions are met, I often found them too clunky and slow. I'd rather just build up so much value and stumble into an infinite combo that relies only on cards that already generate value on their own, such as Ashnod's Altar or Pitiless Plunderer (the deck's best creature, in my opinion).

I also re-added Soldevi Digger, since it can be recurred easily with Junk Diver and Goblin Engineer, and is another source of easy-to-assemble combos.

I've added 5 out of 8 fetches, and will order the others soon. They've been marginally useful so far, but if you can fetch 2-3 times per game, that increases your odds of a live flip just enough to make them worthwhile. They've also been useful to shuffle away cards I've Scry'd to the bottom.

The least impactful Creatures in my current build:
  • Whisper, Blood Liturgist - I haven't gotten a win because of Whisper lately, though since Reanimate effects are scarce in my build, I'm hesitant to cut this one.
  • Marionette Master - It's been awhile since I've gotten a Marionette Digger loop going! But the token density seems good with Mana Echoes, so I'm keeping her in there for a little while longer.
Some recent high-performing Creatures:
  • Priest of Gix - No reason not to run this one. Another Digger loop piece with Ashnod's Altar, gives you 1-3 flips on ETB. Flipped early it's a great accelerant; flipped late it can enable game-winning combos.
  • Balthor the Defiled - I have rebuilt into a leading presence at the table and/or won games because of this dude so many times. Mass recursion on a flippable body! Yes please.
  • Fleshwrither - It almost always becomes a Treasonous Ogre. It almost always causes some opponent to say, "Wait: you're not casting anything?" (This deck inspires that phrase so many times, lol. That and: "On your end step—oh wait: it's not even your turn?") Fleshwrither can also find Balthor, Lightning Crafter, and Redcap. It's a good card that evades removal. Gets even better with Priest of Gix!
  • Judith, the Scourge Diva - I've won a few games because I need a pinger, and she provides.
Cards I haven't yet been able to test much, but that are in my list: Overall, here are the cards I tried and have since cut:
Nim Deathmantle
Thornbite Staff
Rakdos Signet - It's fine, but I'd rather my list of rocks be as mana-efficient as possible. (0 for 2 or 1 for 2, vs. 2 for 1).
Mad Auntie
Tuktuk Scrapper
Burnished Hart
Pilgrim's Eye
Solemn Simulacrum
Avalanche Riders
Body Snatcher
Liliana, Heretical Healer
Olivia, Mobilized for War
Skirge Familiar
Puppeteer Clique
Drownyard Temple

My list as it stands typically wins between turns 4 and 6. It's easily my highest-power non-cEDH deck. Anecdotally, I've noticed that I usually have only 6-10 mana available at the start of a game-winning series of flips. I've also noticed that I usually pay 12–30 life into any given Treasonous Ogre under my control. :)

I hope this wordy update helps!

ElevatorDreams
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Post by ElevatorDreams » 3 years ago

I will be very curious to see the next official update to the list. I think things are changing quite a bit in terms of the deck's direction.

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Love the thoughts everyone and appreciate your input. I agree, looking back at past experiences, that Furystoke Giant is definitely worth keeping. I'll have to consider a lot of the other suggestions that were shared.

I really like Kozilek's Translator, and agree with Priest of Gix, Balthor the Defiled. Fleshwrither probably being reevaluated.

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

ElevatorDreams wrote:
3 years ago
I will be very curious to see the next official update to the list. I think things are changing quite a bit in terms of the deck's direction.
I'm still in testing phase and won't make any official updates until I'm truly comfortable with them, but I don't think you have to worry too much about the deck's direction. I still want the same random toolbox, explosive playstyle. So even with a slightly higher goblin density, I won't be throwing out the core philosophy that made this deck what it is.

ThePillowman
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Post by ThePillowman » 3 years ago

Dungeon homies - are we gonna playtest Obosh? I don't think I've used a damage doubler yet and while it might be a "win more" card if we end up with a few damage dealers, or could expedite the win

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Post by Kelzam » 3 years ago

ThePillowman wrote:
3 years ago
Dungeon homies - are we gonna playtest Obosh? I don't think I've used a damage doubler yet and while it might be a "win more" card if we end up with a few damage dealers, or could expedite the win
I don't feel Obosh really adds anything to the deck. Obosh, the Preypiercer's damage double requires the source to be an odd converted mana cost. Half of the non-land cards in the deck are even mana costs, so to make it worth it would require making big changes to a deck where many of the most important cards have an even CMC. On top of that, the odd CMC cards that the deck relies on to deal damage like Goblin Sharpshooter, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Zealous Conscripts you look to create a loop with anyway, where the double damage is a moot point.
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warbhorgl
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Post by warbhorgl » 3 years ago

Hi Snowfox - no card questions or suggestions, just wanted to say I have been following this since Salvation and boy am I ever glad I built this deck. It's the most fun I've ever hard playing EDH since buying my first commander pre-con (Riku). Love seeing the updates, looking forward to how you will tweak this going forward!

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Post by Yeti » 3 years ago

I had to create an account just to post this.
First, I love this deck and I've been following it for some time :D
Second, If I'm reading Mana Echoes and its rulings corectly, having a changeling in play, like Taurean Mauler gives you 2 mana each flip, right? Infinite flips?

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Post by Outcryqq » 3 years ago

Yeti wrote:
3 years ago
I had to create an account just to post this.
First, I love this deck and I've been following it for some time :D
Second, If I'm reading Mana Echoes and its rulings corectly, having a changeling in play, like Taurean Mauler gives you 2 mana each flip, right? Infinite flips?
Infinite flips if you hit creatures 100% of the time, yes.

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SlurmsMcKenzie
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Post by SlurmsMcKenzie » 3 years ago

I still think Chainer, Nightmare Adept [/card] is better than Olivia, Mobilized for War because even if we can only discard a card once each turn, every nontoken crature we flip instantly gets haste. With Olivia i often found myself without cards to discard.
I also think that people tend to overlook the fact that Marionette Master is not exclusively a token producer. These days i mostly use the first option and buff her up because this deck can produce so many treasure tokens which then easily kill an opponent when sacrificed.

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Post by ThePillowman » 3 years ago

SlurmsMcKenzie wrote:
3 years ago
I still think Chainer, Nightmare Adept [/card] is better than Olivia, Mobilized for War because even if we can only discard a card once each turn, every nontoken crature we flip instantly gets haste. With Olivia i often found myself without cards to discard.
I also think that people tend to overlook the fact that Marionette Master is not exclusively a token producer. These days i mostly use the first option and buff her up because this deck can produce so many treasure tokens which then easily kill an opponent when sacrificed.
Let's run both! Having multiple discard outlets so we can keep cards in our hand from feeling dead feels like the way to go. I currently have both in my build, and I've definitely hit the instance you're referring to with Olivia running out of fodder. That's also part of why I'm going to bring Balthor the Defiled [/card] back in, there's just too much opportunity to ignore it.

Also...https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status ... 12/photo/1. This 100% supports the Goblin-heavy build and speeds it up A TON.

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Post by GuJiaXian » 3 years ago

So, I'm building this deck. It's been on my radar for some time, and now I'm biting the bullet. However, my budget is a bit more limited. I looked through my collection, and I wonder if any of the following cards would be worth it, even in a budget version of the deck. Thoughts?


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Post by GuJiaXian » 3 years ago

Very true. What about Panharmonicon? Would that make sense in this deck?

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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

i have just registered, mainly to talk about this thread that i have been following since the other forum. as a grenzo player, i will give my opinion on the cards that you suggested.


Yarok's Fenlurker: you dont choose but all of your opponents will be affected... personally, if you can loop it the single target doesnt matter but if you cant, the choosing part does. with infinite mana you could theoretically swing with him but with infinite mana grenzo already wins.

Cathodion: you are right, is another inifinite mana card, there are a lot of them already, if you want one more
Cultbrand Cinder: you could use him for that, i dont like that he is a 3/3 since there are times that grenzo is a 2/2, also if there are no other creatures i goes against you.

Lost Legion: in my humble opinion, scrying is good as an extra effect on this deck, but i would not put scry cards on the deck just because they scry. this creature is using to maybe put a creature that does something at the bottom of your library, you could simply put a creature that does something on that slot in the first place

Stingscourger: good card, i will consider it

Falkenrath Noble: i do use this one on my deck, in my opinion these are important not only because you can win with them, but because other players sometimes cant do their combo with them around. this one also flies, that is a plus

Goblin Arsonist/Mudbutton Torchrunner : these are good with a digger loop, without it maybe the effect is not big enough?

Panharmonicon: is not a creature, i can help if in play but is a dead flip.

will also add my two cents with a card that i dont see played much in grenzo but is cool in my opinion, Pentavus. i goes infinite with mana echoes easily, is great to block flyers forever and in fact it blocks any non trample attack if you spend mana on him, is a good sac trigger enabler for something that care for that. it also gives a lot of mana with ashnod altar, since you can pay 4 for 4 pentavites them sac everyting for 10 mana, gaining 6, easily going infinite if you add a loop.

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Here are my thoughts on some of the cards mentioned:

- Chainer, Nightmare Adept - I definitely wouldn't replace Olivia, Mobilized for War with him because Olivia's ability has a lot more versatility than being just a discard outlet that provides haste. As mentioned in previous posts, she can rebuff Grenzo if necessary as well as reset persist triggers. The other issue that's kept me from including Chainer is while his discard outlet is instant-speed, the following ability to cast from your graveyard isn't. Instant-speed is typically where the deck wins anyways. Casting cards also opens you up to more counter interaction which just means wasted mana that could've been utilized for uncounterable flips. If I were to add him, I'd probably replace Anger, but even then, he's a flimsier haste enabler. I'm willing to hear additional arguments for him (and anecdotal experiences), but I have yet to be convinced he deserves a spot from my limited experience with him.

- Yarok's Fenlurker - As @Arkren explained, Mesmeric Fiend gives you a little more choice on who to target and what to choose from their hand. The exiling effect is also relevant as you don't want to discard a key creature to a GY deck or a Cyc Rift to a deck that runs spell recursion. It's definitely not a bad replacement if you want a different kind of effect. I still wish Mindslicer had only 3 power...

- Cathodion - My issue with cathodion is that it needs to die for you to access that mana. I'd rather have it readily available as flipping into this without a sac outlet can create a dead end.

- Panharmonicon - It's a dead flip, it's not tutorable with Goblin Engineer, and it paints a huge target on your back. I personally wouldn't run it.

- Falkenrath Noble - A little too slow since it targets only one player at a time. I'd rather throw in Vindictive Vampire if you want another redundant effect to Zulaport Cutthroat.

- Stingscourger - Might try this card out. I agree it's unique and it's a goblin which is always nice since we have several other synergies for it.

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Post by ElevatorDreams » 3 years ago

Any updates to the main list soon?

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

@ElevatorDreams

Yes, sorry for the delay. I have a few updates to put in, I've just had difficulty finding the time with family, full-time work and online summer classes :P

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GuJiaXian
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Post by GuJiaXian » 3 years ago

Thanks for the responses, guys.

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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

another card that i run on my list is Cloak and Dagger maybe i doesnt look as much, but i do like seeing it in my opening hand. you can basically forget about the grenzo counter and i auto equips. i have had starts like:
t1: mountain, sol ring, cloak and dagger
t2: swamp, grenzo (has shroud + is 4/2) and mana for a flip

is also good when somenone cleans the board of creatures, usually stays behind and saves mana for future grenzo castings, or when he comes back from a tel-jilad stylus loop because someone is forcing me to sacrifice him... people usually use the boots or the whispersilk cloak, but in grenzo this card is clearly superior.

Falkenrath Noble btw is better than it looks, is not only the flying part, is also the "another creature" part, i doesnt only trigger for your creatures, there are times were an opponent has also a combo that needs for a creaute or two to die multiple times, maybe to get infinite mana so that they can win with another thing. a noble stops that since they are only going to do it as long as they have life. there have been times when someone had 1000000 token creatures and attacks, then another player destroys all creatures in response, and i flip a falkenrath in response and win.

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kenbaumann
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Post by kenbaumann » 3 years ago

Just a quick note to say that I prefer Blood Artist over Falkenrath Noble for another "dies" trigger creature. Blood Artist feels much less bad to cast from hand, and can be flipped even if Grenzo's power is 1 for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite reasons.

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Post by Arkren » 3 years ago

i do play all 3 of them to tell the truth, these effects are quite good in grenzo so i dont mind 3 flips that result in them. i do think that falkenrath is left behind in other decks. i know that it cost double from hand but if you flip it that is irrelevant, and im following the Junk Diver estrategy with him. there are times, (last time for me was this thursday) were someone is attacking you with an 11/11 flying shark commander for lethal, and i doesnt hurt to have an extra way to stay alive in the deck

EDIT (to avoid double posting):

i have just seem a video on cedh tv about Conspicuous Snoop and the combo that it has with Boggart Harbinger. there are other cards needed in the deck for it to combo, one of them is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker but is usually already inside of a grenzo deck.

the combo is as follows, you need the snoop in play and you play the boggart, that puts kiki jiki on top of your library, snoop them can use kiki´s ability, and since snoop is not legenday he can actually copy itself. at the end of it you have infinite snoops, the last one copys the boggart which finds another goblin with an ability that lets us win. Sling-Gang Lieutenant for example, but Skirk Prospector could also work giving infinite mana for infinite grenzos, or any of the other ways that a grenzo deck can have in play already that make use of infinite tapped creatures.

now i have to say, i see that combo inside a more goblin-tribal centered grenzo deck any day, but one that is more toolbox centered like the ones that are discussed here has to consider some things. you need two slots for it and the two pieces dont do much by themselves for grenzo, then again there are cards like Goblin Matron already in some decks that can help with the assembly. is also good that is a combo that doesnt really need grenzo to work but grenzo can still flip the pieces at any moment. what do you grenzo experts say? is worth considering?

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snowfox54119
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Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Arkren wrote:
3 years ago
now i have to say, i see that combo inside a more goblin-tribal centered grenzo deck any day, but one that is more toolbox centered like the ones that are discussed here has to consider some things. you need two slots for it and the two pieces dont do much by themselves for grenzo, then again there are cards like Goblin Matron already in some decks that can help with the assembly. is also good that is a combo that doesnt really need grenzo to work but grenzo can still flip the pieces at any moment. what do you grenzo experts say? is worth considering?
I personally do not see it making the list. It is an amazing card, don't get me wrong, and it's definitely going to go in the Muxxus deck I'll be building. But with our wide range of creature types, I don't see this card being that advantageous. Its application is extremely limited, and I'd rather flip a creature with immediate impact than one that hopes a goblin is on top to do literally anything.

As you said, if you're playing a goblin-focused version, then this card's a no-brainer. But I don't think this list will ever run enough goblins to make the inclusion worth the flip slot.

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Post by Wollyb » 3 years ago

Very cool post! I will go for the budget deck. Is it up to date?

Thanks

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