Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value

Blueduck
Posts: 1
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Blueduck » 4 years ago

Thanks for making this primer, it's great! A couple questions...
  1. You mentioned a few weeks ago was that you were about to update the list. Did you ever finish? I didn't see a changelog update so figured I'd ask. I haven't played MTG in about 8 months and wanted to update my deck before I play with some friends in a few weeks. Would love to see any changes you've made.

Tags:

sampersand
Posts: 14
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by sampersand » 4 years ago

@Blueduck, I can't respond to your first question, but as for your second, don't feel like they're too difficult to avoid.

If you look at the primer (/my suggestions), you'll note that most of the combos center around a few specific cards (primarily ashnod's altar, [[kiki jiki, mirrorbreaker], and thornbite staff), as you noted. While this definitely stops most of the infinite combos from happening, this primer just lends itself to infinite combos. (For example, if you run mana echoes you can still go (effectively) infinite quite easily. Plus, if you combine The Cauldron of Eternity (or the other digger cards + Pawn of Ulamog/Pitiless Plunderer), you can quite easily fall into infinite combos with innocuous things like prist of gix.)

The problem is the cards that make the deck go infinite also make it function smoothly without infinite mana—if you remove *all* the creatures that make mana on ETB/those that make mana on things dying, you lose the charm of the deck. My personal suggestion would be to just not abuse them when they're in play. My playgroup isn't a huge fan of combos, but they're somewhat tolerant if it's 4+ cards (e.g. grenzo, dungeon warden + Epitaph Golem + Pitiless Plunderer + Goblin Marshal + Viscera Seer is fairly hard to assemble...); check if your playgroup accepts that.

Just my 2¢

User avatar
snowfox54119
Posts: 68
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by snowfox54119 » 4 years ago

I'll have to test out Mana Echoes and Bridge from Below. I am particularly interested in Bridge as it's the only enchantment I can think of that isn't in itself a dead-flip.

As to your first question, @Blueduck, I apologize for my delay in getting the update. This semester has been pretty crazy, but with most colleges in my area extending their spring break due to the virus, I should have plenty more time to get this update done. I will try to get the next update added in by next weekend. Once again, sorry for the delay!

sampersand
Posts: 14
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by sampersand » 4 years ago

After further testing of bridge from below, i'm not so sure it's as good as I thought it was. Creatures die quite frequently in commander (e.g. steve) and so it doesn't tend to stay around for very long. For example, if you flip it on your third turn, by the time you've gotten to your fifth turn, 6 other people have been able to go. Something's bound to die by then. But it does have nice interactions, nonetheless. I think I'll put it in my lower-powered variant of grenzo

EDIT:

Also, just in case anyone else is building this deck in a slightly different direction than I am (e.g. cheating in big creatures, idk), there's two (r/b( enchantments asides frmo bridge from below that can recur from the grave: dragon breath and dragon shadow. Both of them are mediocre enchantments, but I thought it might be helpful to put it out there for posterity.

As for the deck, I've come to the realization that the way I've been building it leads to very linear gameplay, which is not really what I want my edh decks to do anymore. As such, I'm looking for other combos I can stick in the deck to make things more interesting and spice it up. A few I've found that you dont have on your list (last I checked) are:

- Thornbite Staff + Soldevi Adnate + (5+ CMC artifact/black creature or stuff that generates mana on ETB/LTB) = infinite mana

- Thornbite Staff + Whisper, Blood Liturgist + any #etb-tokens (+ 1 creature in grave...) = infinite tokens + etb/die

- Thornbite Staff + Krark-Clan Stoker + (any artifact) = infinite mana

- Skirk Prospector + Goblin Marshal = infinite mana

I'd highly recommend the goblin marshal over Sling-Gang Lieutenant.

User avatar
snowfox54119
Posts: 68
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by snowfox54119 » 4 years ago

@sampersand , that was my fear with Bridge as well, but I was willing to test it out a bit before I came to the conclusion. Glad to hear your thoughts on it. As for combos listed, the first two you mentioned are ones that I've definitely used. The thing about the deck is that it has so many interactions and synergies that it's hard to list every combo available.

Your Krark-Clan Stoker combo does seem like it's easily infinite. I'm guessing the combo assumes a digger loop is online, but with only two mana being generated per tap, how are you paying the 4 mana to recur an artifact and come out mana positive to go infinite?

I'll look into Goblin Marshal. He's been on my maybe list, but the reason I ran Sling-Gang Lieutenant is because he also acts as a sac outlet and provides another source of life loss damage.

sampersand
Posts: 14
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by sampersand » 4 years ago

@snowfox54119, the Krark-Clan Ironworks goes with Workhorse and Cathodion (the latter of which you don't run, iirc. I like it because it's another etb/ltb mana source). It can also sacrifice artifacts that are generated in other ways (Pitiless Plunderer, Dockside Extortionist, Rapacious Dragon, Marionette Master's fabricate servos, etc.]]) as long as you have some other sac outlet (eg Viscera Seer). It does a surprising amount of work, and you get artifacts from places you least expect. (Heck, you can even sac you rmana dorks if you have stuff like Pawn of Ulamog out with Anger in the grave!)

I'm not a huge fan of Sling-Gang Lieutenant because he only sacrifices goblins. While ETB "generate tokens" ability is good, there's a few better sources to look at (Goblin Marshal/Sengir Autocrat) which create more goblins.

As the whole point of additional sac outlets in the deck is to allow us to still pop off without Ashnod's Altar (or its clones), sacrificing goblins doesn't give us a whole lot of value. Sure, we can scry, but it doesn't really allow us to churn another card off the bottom of the deck. The only way I could see it being more useful than, say Woe Strider, is if we had a decent chunk of goblins that we could sac and somehow generate mana. I only run two goblins that produce mana on their own (Dockside Extortionist and Stadium Vendors, the later of which you don't run yourself), and barring some Pawn of Ulamog-esque ability, the sacrifice outlet just doesn't generate enough value for me.

(For similar reasons I'm thinking about cutting Skirk Prospector, as it really only lets us go infinite with Goblin Marshal, and get infinite death triggers with Siege-Gang Commander. Not a whole lot for it to work with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

P.S. I was looking through my collection and randomly found a thornbite staff, which I've been proxying. Sweet!

Hoboz
Posts: 14
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Hoboz » 4 years ago

I was also about to take out my Skirk Prospector from my build when I kept not being able to sac the goblins I had. Until I re-included Krenko. I think he's a better choice than Goblin Marshal due to raw versatility. I don't really like having token producing cards that don't have functions outside of producing the tokens.

Krenko's 'floor' in the deck is you flip it at the end of the turn rotation and he should tap for +2 goblins w/ Grenzo in play. That's on par with Beetleback Chief honestly. His ceiling is between combat victory and infinite loops via Thornbite Staff.

sampersand
Posts: 14
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by sampersand » 4 years ago

@Hoboz, I like the idea of krenko, but I'm hesitant to include him; effectively every other creature that I'm running has an ETB/LTB trigger (sans the mana dorks...). Seeing how I only have anger and olivia, mobilized for war as haste-enablers, flipping it with haste seems somewhat unlikely.

As for Goblin Marshal, it can generate a total of 5 (!) sac targets for your deck. That's the largest amount for a power <= 3 creature that grenzo can flip; I'd prefer to nearly anything else before it. (It even goes mana positive with phyrexian altar, which doesn't happen with anything else, sans Dockside Extortionist).

I'll try out krenko, but I'm worried that if he turns out to be good, I'll have to switch my build around to include more haste-enablers, which also means more {T} ability creatures!

User avatar
snowfox54119
Posts: 68
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by snowfox54119 » 4 years ago

@sampersand , we can agree to disagree there. I think Siege-Gang Lieutenant as a token generator with a life-loss sac outlet is much more useful than Sengir Autocrat who as I've stated in a previous comment, is much more fragile if flipped without a sac outlet online. I do agree that Goblin Marshal provides more tokens, but he doesn't change the fact that Siege-Gang Commander and Lieutenant go infinite with the digger loop, so I'd rather add him than subtract one of the others that have additional functionality instead of being a pure ETB-token generator. I am looking at possibly adding him in the next update.

I've had more than enough scenarios in my experience where I've controlled enough goblins to work with both Sling-Gang Lieutenant and Skirk Prospector. In fact, I've been playing around with adding even more goblins in (which just ups their usefulness).

I also think you misunderstood my question, I wasn't asking about Krark-Clan Ironworks, I was asking how you claimed Krark-Clan Stoker is infinite with Thornbite and any artifact, because I'm not seeing it. I like the card (and the fact that he's a shaman for Thornbite), but I don't see a super easy infinite there.


EDIT: I just saw Hoboz's comment and I agree about Krenko. If you followed my list on MTGSalvation, you know he was originally in the deck but got cut with a big caveat of possibly returning. I have been considering throwing him back in.

Raga
Posts: 6
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Raga » 4 years ago

Hi Folks,

Made a forum account just to reply. For the last year and a bit, I have been running a Grenzo list inspired by the original primer over on Salvation. Here is where things stand currently - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2620040#paper

I'm quite interested in the other perspectives being taken forward by the other folks here but admit the thing that appealed to me was the original idea of Snowfox to go for randomness over consistency and try to play through the flips.

I've removed a couple of the more expensive bits, and made a few little changes - but mostly, the Fires of Invention I have to note as being stirling. Ok - it has to be a drawn and cast spell, but given the danger level of a lot of other cards in the deck, it tends not to be the thing people look to remove. I really appreciate being able to cast spells then without wasting mana for flips.

Anyway - following the convo - and look forward to see updates as ever (and comments/feedback on my list itself).

Cheers

User avatar
kenbaumann
on and off since '94
Posts: 88
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Post by kenbaumann » 4 years ago

Have to share one of the best Grenzo starts I've ever had.

T1: Ancient Tomb, Leaden Myr
T2: Mountain, Treasonous Ogre, Dockside Extornist (3 Treasure), Grenzo
T3: Swamp, Soldevi Adnate, Pitiless Plunderer
T4: Swamp, Tel-Jilad Stylus…

I won on T5 through a Generous Gift targeting Grenzo (he reflipped himself with the Stylus) and a single-target Rift on the Plunderer (I also had Woe Strider out by then and had gotten back 27 life off a Gary, so it was off to the races again until I hit Redcap + Mimic).

Just absolutely brutal—and beautiful! What Grenzo's dreams are made of…

Edgar23
Posts: 6
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Edgar23 » 4 years ago

Hey guys,
My playgroup plays expensive decks with some wincombos and fast decks. But I can keep up with that budget. So I´m looking for a strong budget deck. But the funlevel is important for me. I dont like linear decks or winning over and over with the same combo.

Can the budget Grenzo keep up with expensive decks?
Can it win consistency?
How about the funlevel?
It seems a bit complicated to pilot, or am I worng?
The budget one cost me around 80€.Its pretty much for me. So I must be sure that it is a good strong and fun deck.

I´m thankful for your help!

ElevatorDreams
Posts: 12
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by ElevatorDreams » 4 years ago

I want to add 3 cards to this list. What 3 cards would you guys cut from the stock list here?

User avatar
kenbaumann
on and off since '94
Posts: 88
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Post by kenbaumann » 4 years ago

Edgar23 wrote:
4 years ago
Can the budget Grenzo keep up with expensive decks?
Can it win consistency?
How about the funlevel?
It seems a bit complicated to pilot, or am I worng?
The budget one cost me around 80€.Its pretty much for me. So I must be sure that it is a good strong and fun deck.
I've played Grenzo in around 100 games in different playgroups. My answers to your questions:
- It depends on the expensive decks. If they're all built to win if uninterrupted around turn 3–5, then no. If they're built to win if uninterrupted around turn 5-7, then yes.
- Yes, a budget Grenzo deck can win consistently.
- I find Grenzo very fun. This deck provides so many Instant-speed options and interactions (via flips) that you'll have fun digging for answers or trying to find a game-winning line.
- It takes a little while to learn to see and find game-winning lines (that aren't 2- or 3-card combos), but it's fun to learn!
- If other decks in your playgroup are built to win on turns 3-5, most $80 decks will not be able to keep up. But if they play decks that win on turns 5-7, this budget list can probably keep up!

It might be good to encourage players in your playgroup to each build an $80 – $100 budget deck that you all can then play together, as well.

I hope this helps!

User avatar
snowfox54119
Posts: 68
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by snowfox54119 » 4 years ago

Hey everyone,

Sorry for the radio silence from me for a bit. Things have been crazier than I expected with this crisis going on, but I finally found some time today to update the list. Below are the added updates:

Removed:
Yahenni, Undying Partisan - I've had some fun times with this guy, but his sac effect is not amazing, and his replacement is much better.

Gonti, Lord of Luxury - Been a pet card of mine for a while, but I will admit that I've rarely used the card that I've stolen and more often than not just continue flipping.

Fleshwrither - I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten this guy off. He's an especially dud-flip when you're trying to win at instant speed.


Added:
Woe Strider - Amazing sac outlet that provides scry triggers and has it's own form of recursion.

Olivia, Mobilized for War - Multifuntional card with haste applications, discard triggers, and +1/+1 counter to reapply persist triggers.

Liliana, Heretical Healer - A pretty good planeswalker that we can actually use. And while yes, it does function mostly at sorcery speed (like it's replacement Fleshwriter, I prefer the ability to use this card's abilities while saving mana for more flips. I still think Fleshwrither is a strong card and it will be at the top of my "Might make it back in" list.


Delegated to Alternative List:

All three removed cards - The cards that I removed are still good, and you shouldn't feel bad for running them. They can be great depending on your meta/play style.



Also I thought I'd mention that while it's difficult to find the time/opportunity to play with friends in person, there are some great resources to use to play Magic online. Here are the two that I use:
  • Uptap.in - You can build decks and play them for free on this website. It's a great place to test out decks to make sure you want to buy into them.
  • MTGO - With the exception of a few cards, this deck can be bought for a SUPER affordable price on this client. I think I built my total current list with only $25 a while back, and most cards are less than a penny in credit. I actually really like MTGO and once you get the hang of the system and the shortcuts you can use to pass priority, it can actually help not only play the game, but learn a lot about how interactions actually work in the game.
So stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope to hear more stories of your games in the coming weeks! :)

User avatar
kenbaumann
on and off since '94
Posts: 88
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Post by kenbaumann » 4 years ago

Thanks for the update, @snowfox54119! I hope you're staying healthy.

Just a quick note to say that I got in a Grenzo game this evening and kept an opening hand with Mana Echoes—I was very excited to test it out. And, uhhh, my LORD does that card get absolutely stupid and fast (particularly with Pawn of Ulamog and the deck's numerous Goblins). If it sticks around for a turn and you hit maybe 2–3 flips, it's essentially game over.

I was thoroughly impressed by this busted Enchantment and will likely keep it in. @oldmangrieves & @sampersand: thanks for recommending it!

User avatar
snowfox54119
Posts: 68
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by snowfox54119 » 4 years ago

kenbaumann wrote:
4 years ago
Thanks for the update, snowfox54119! I hope you're staying healthy.

Just a quick note to say that I got in a Grenzo game this evening and kept an opening hand with Mana Echoes—I was very excited to test it out. And, uhhh, my LORD does that card get absolutely stupid and fast (particularly with Pawn of Ulamog and the deck's numerous Goblins). If it sticks around for a turn and you hit maybe 2–3 flips, it's essentially game over.

I was thoroughly impressed by this busted Enchantment and will likely keep it in. oldmangrieves & sampersand: thanks for recommending it!
Thanks, @kenbaumann, I hope you stay healthy as well. I'll have to give the enchantment a try on MTGO over the next couple of weeks. You all keep recommending it, so I gotta finally test it out :P

User avatar
FajenThygia
Posts: 2
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: they / them

Post by FajenThygia » 4 years ago

So, I'm late to the party on this site...

Glad to see this is still going strong. I wanted to mention a card I met in a Mystery Booster - Kulrath Knight. Not something I'd ever heard of before, but it can shut down quite a few staples and strategies - Avenger of Zendikar, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, Sarkhan the Masterless... It's probably more of a meta pick, but it's definitely something I'm trying as soon as face-to-face magic is a thing again.

User avatar
Toshi
ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ
Posts: 638
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Freiburg, Germany
Contact:

Post by Toshi » 4 years ago

So, i finally found the time to sift through the Ikoria spoilers (not a fan at all) and stumbled over Fire Prophecy.
Now, i know how most people i play with actually hugely underestimate Shocks and Lightning Bolts in EDH. But in this particular deck being able to snipe a crucial utility creature, put a creature under your deck - you didn't want to draw them in the first place, eh? - that replaces itself and all that at a decent CMC and instant speed?
My guess is, this card might be one of those that outperform their expectations. Would love to hear your thoughts, my fellow Dungeon Wardens.

User avatar
kenbaumann
on and off since '94
Posts: 88
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Post by kenbaumann » 4 years ago

@FajenThygia Nice! That's a nice meta-dependent hatebear.

@NoNeedToBragoBoutIt Oh wow! I've often thought while piloting my Grenzo build that I'd love a way to bottom cards directly from my hand—casting spells sometimes feels so frustrating/wasteful with this deck, lol! So I might include Fire Prophecy as the deck's "only Instant." It'd be pleasing aesthetically to me to have just one Sorcery (Dread Return), one Enchantment (Mana Echoes), and one Instant!

I also plan to test the following cards ASAP (most of which lean into Mana Echoes' payoff):
Krenko, Mob Boss
Goblin Cratermaker
Warteye Witch
Goblin Chainwhirler
Flamewave Invoker
Goblin Trashmaster
Goblin Settler
and good ol' Soldevi Digger.

User avatar
SlurmsMcKenzie
Posts: 9
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by SlurmsMcKenzie » 4 years ago

Hi snowfox54119,
i really enjoy this primer. It helped me streamline my Grenzo deck. Looking at the spoilers from Ikoria and C20 i'm somewhat relieved to see that i probably won't have to make room for many new cards but i'm thinking about adding Daring Fiendbonder. Because of its high power it will stick to the graveyard most times where we can then exile it to give Grenzo hexproof. Sure only at sorcery speed, but hexproof is pretty damn good to have.
For the more casual games i really like Agitator Ant as it can buff Grenzo after a Tel-Jilad Stylus save or buff Deathbringer Thoctar not to mention it's hilarious to have people die off of Marionette Master's trigger when sacrificing Dockside Extortionist's treasure tokens. And goading is really fun.
Even Netherborn Altar may be interesting in some situations, but i don't think i can offer it a place in my deck right now.
Well, thank you again, keep up the good work.

User avatar
kenbaumann
on and off since '94
Posts: 88
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Post by kenbaumann » 3 years ago

Two ideas for Grenzo: Ali from Cairo and/or Fortune Thief. Could be a game-saving flip!

User avatar
kenbaumann
on and off since '94
Posts: 88
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Post by kenbaumann » 3 years ago

A brief report on my activity at the roulette table:

My research with Mana Echoes continues to be… frankly? A little disgusting. The card opens up so many Epitaph Golem/Soldevi Digger loops. Dimir House Guard, our least useful sac outlet, can tutor it into hand. Mana Echoes is so good in this deck that I'm ordering another Codex Shredder in order to get Echoes back if it's blown up or if it's a dead flip!

Also, tentatively via goldfishing, Fire Prophecy is GAS. The ability to look at 2-4 creatures in your hand and choose which one becomes your next card—while hopefully drawing you into another land, as well—allows a great deal of informational flexibility. Presumably the 3 damage will come in handy, too. More later. For now, I really like the aesthetic of having only one Enchantment, only one Instant, and only one Sorcery…

I'll also be making a handful of changes to my build in order to test a higher density of Goblins (including excellent Goblin-only utility pieces like Goblin Trashmaster, one of the best names in Magic's history…). Will report here to other faithful gamblers.

(My build, for reference: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-slo ... -of-value/)

User avatar
snowfox54119
Posts: 68
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by snowfox54119 » 3 years ago

Well everyone, it's been a crazy couple of weeks and I apologize for the radio silence. But I'm back to let you know of a big update to the deck that's in playtesting right now.

1. You mad lads went and convinced me to put in Mana Echoes, and you were right. Card is great even if it's a dead flip occasionally. In respects to what @kenbaumann already mentioned, Codex Shredder might be an inclusion I'll be looking into.


2. With this change in mind, I'm looking at possibly increasing the goblin density as well which means looking into some old favorites as well as some possible new toys. I've already ordered a Goblin Settler to replace Avalanche Riders and I've replaced Tuktuk Scrapper with Goblin Trashmaster. However, there are four more I'm trying to find places to replace.

Cards I want to throw in The cards I'm considering throwing out Feel free to share your thoughts with me. It gets harder and harder with every update to truly want to replace something.


3. The land base has gone through some massive improvements with fetches being added as well as Cavern of Souls. These should help with further mitigating the risk of flipping lands, and Cavern will make it much easier to land a Grenzo.


I realize before I've expressed the desire to maintain an affordable entry cost to my list for those who want to play it, but I've slowly come to the conclusion that this decklist is for me to continue pushing boundaries (both for me and for you). So I'm going to do my best to make this list the best it can be.

Once again, I'm happy to be back and talking some magic and would love to hear your thoughts on these changes! Happy digging, fellow dungeoneers!

oldmangrieves
Posts: 7
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by oldmangrieves » 3 years ago

In terms of cuts, I think the weakest link are:

burnished hart. Paying three mana for some ramp and deck thinning makes sense on paper, but I always found it too slow in the deck. I usually want to use that mana for something else. I like using myrs for ramp because consolidating creature type fuels Mana Echoes further.

Corpse Connoisseur. Entomb effects are rad, but it needs a reanimation effect to really work and I don't know how consistently that happens. Plus it is awkward in hand.

whisper, blood liturgist. Similar to above, reanimation is nice but you need a target first. I find the deck does so well at presenting new threats, I rarely need to get an old one back.

Crypt Ghast This is shallow but, the hybrid Mana symbol clashes too much with my ideal aesthetic for the deck. Rakdos doesn't need a white mana symbol floating around to distract from the madcap beauty that is red/black! Card is great other than that.

Auntie is goblin who keeps Grenzo at 3 and can protect him in a pinch. I don't run the giant myself because he is 3 power and 5 Mana, but I can see how he could run someone's day easily enough. Pilgrim thins deck on entry and it's a good digger target when you need more resources.

Thanks again @snowfox54119 ,@kenbaumann and everyone else for posting such interesting commentary on your Grenzo decks!

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”