Karador, Ghost Chieftain

[SocorroTortoise]

I've spent some time commenting on other Karador threads so I'm finally getting around to posting my own build around the general.

Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

Creatures

1 Apprentice Necromancer

1 Athreos, God of Passage

1 Beast Whisperer

1 Blood Artist

1 Caustic Caterpillar

1 Devoted Caretaker

1 Doom Whisperer

1 Elenda, the Dusk Rose

1 Elvish Reclaimer

1 Elvish Visionary

1 Eternal Witness

1 Farhaven Elf

1 Fiend Artisan

1 Giver of Runes

1 Knight of Autumn

1 Krav, the Unredeemed

1 Lurrus of the Dream-Den

1 Manglehorn

1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

1 Ministrant of Obligation

1 Mother of Runes

1 Nethroi, Apex of Death

1 Phyrexian Plaguelord

1 Pitiless Plunderer

1 Plaguecrafter

1 Qasali Pridemage

1 Reclamation Sage

1 Remorseful Cleric

1 Saffi Eriksdotter

1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

1 Selfless Spirit

1 Seraph of the Scales

1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

1 Syr Konrad, the Grim

1 Teysa Karlov

1 Underrealm Lich

1 Viscera Seer

1 Wood Elves

1 Yawgmoth, Thran Physician

1 Zulaport Cutthroat

Artifacts

1 Nihil Spellbomb

1 Skullclamp

Enchantments

1 Deafening Silence

1 Dictate of Erebos

1 Evolutionary Leap

1 Fecundity

1 Guardian Project

1 Phyrexian Reclamation

1 Sylvan Library

Instants

1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Heroic Intervention

1 Mythos of Nethroi

1 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries

1 Farseek

1 Hour of Promise

1 Nature's Lore

1 Pir's Whim

1 Rampant Growth

1 Reanimate

1 Skyshroud Claim

1 Three Visits

1 Toxic Deluge

Lands

1 Bayou

1 Bojuka Bog

1 Castle Ardenvale

1 Command Tower

1 Field of the Dead

2 Forest

1 Gavony Township

1 Godless Shrine

1 High Market

1 Horizon Canopy

1 Indatha Triome

1 Isolated Chapel

1 Marsh Flats

1 Nurturing Peatland

1 Overgrown Tomb

1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Plains

1 Prismatic Vista

1 Reflecting Pool

1 Savannah

1 Scrubland

1 Silent Clearing

2 Snow-Covered Forest

1 Snow-Covered Plains

1 Snow-Covered Swamp

1 Sunpetal Grove

1 Swamp

1 Tectonic Edge

1 Temple Garden

1 Vault of the Archangel

1 Verdant Catacombs

1 Volrath's Stronghold

1 Wasteland

1 Windswept Heath

1 Woodland Cemetery

Approximate Total Cost:

Changelog

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May 23, 2020

In

+ Devoted Caretaker
+ Fiend Artisan
+ Lurrus of the Dream-Den
+ Nethroi, Apex of Death
+ Mythos of Nethroi
+ Indatha Triome

Out

- Izoni, Thousand-Eyed
- Rankle, Master of Pranks
- Reveillark
- Perilous Forays
- Find // Finality
- Swamp

Making cuts to try out new cards, even if I'm not anticipating playing the deck in person for a while. Lark is coming out relatively quickly to limit the list's combo potential. Other cuts are primarily aimed at bringing the curve down slightly while filling broadly similar roles. Rankle and Mythos are both occupying removal slots, Lurrus and Lark are both for recursion of small permanents (Lurrus is admittedly here on more of a trial run), Izoni and Nethroi are both late game haymakers taking advantage of a stocked yard, and Artisan and Forays both turn creatures that have outlived their usefulness into additional resources. I generally play pretty tutor light, so I'll see how I feel about this after I actually have a chance to play around with it. I do like that it's also an inexpensive creature with the potential to be a sizable beater late game. Devoted Caretaker for Find // Finality is actually a slightly older change. I've been wanting to try Caretaker since I realized it protects all permanents, not just creatures and Find // Finality is pretty low value much of the time. Indatha Triome for Swamp improves color consistency at the cost of some potential speed. I'm guessing that the prevalence of land tutors means it's coming in off of one of those more often than played from hand. The cycling is also relevant, largely thanks to the low curve in the deck.

October 30, 2019

In

+ Athreos, God of Passage
+ Reveillark

Out

- Regna, the Redeemer
- Nissa, Vital Force

Athreos and Lark are both going in to try and take some of the pressure off of Karador as the main recursion engine. I'm somewhat hesitant to include Lark because I don't really want to be comboing off with this list, but at the end of the day any loops that use it are going to involve at least 4 cards to kill a table and have multiple points of interaction. For cuts, Regna's biggest strength was always being a second copy of Krav, so no great loss there. Nissa is a solid all around card, but doesn't do anything particularly on theme. This change also has the benefit of bringing the curve down slightly and playing better with Teysa Karlov, which is a powerful effect.

The main plan here is to grind them out. There are lots of value engines and hatebears here. With enough death triggers, tokens, and removal it's possible to stall until the table dies from the thousand cuts. There's some emphasis on pet cards and a definite bent towards newer cards - I play this kind of archetype a lot, so I like to experiment with new additions. Mana is super, super greedy. I'm leaning into it a little with a handful of ways to tutor out nonbasics so I can at least see the benefit of running so many colorless utility lands that I'm potentially hurting for colors. It's typically not been a problem. There are lots of duals, quite a few low CMC ramp spells to fix, and left long enough recurring those will eventually solve all problems. I'm also 3 cards away from having a truly singleton deck and it's a little tempting to throw in painlands or something to make that happen, even though I know that's a bad plan with the ramp spells and fetches.

[ISBPathfinder]

I see a lot of creatures and a lot of Reclamation Sage effects in here. But I notice you aren't running Aura Shards. Given you aren't a token deck I guess its kind of ok not to run it but given how many rec sage effects you have in here I thought its at least worth consideration.

Birthing Pod might also be nice in here given your commander lets you recast creatures and you have a lot of ETB effects.

[pokken]

I see a lot of creatures and a lot of Reclamation Sage effects in here. But I notice you aren't running Aura Shards. Given you aren't a token deck I guess its kind of ok not to run it but given how many rec sage effects you have in here I thought its at least worth consideration.

Birthing Pod might also be nice in here given your commander lets you recast creatures and you have a lot of ETB effects.

I'm really iffy on if you want to be the guy with aura shards out these days. Most times I see it the owner becomes public enemy #1 forever.

Agree 100% on pod but from what I can tell the OP has basically no tutors in it, so may be avoiding tutoring? None of the usual suspects.

I'll shill a little for the Cavaliers. All three of your on color cavaliers are pretty powerful though I think cavalier of dawn is likely to be the strongest; presents some recursion for things that're fairly important to your gameplan, some removal, and a good sized body.

I'm also a pretty huge fan of karmic guide in Karador lists. It self-sacrifices and lets you recast your expensive cards for cheaper while also generating a sacrifice with Leap or similar, and additional triggers on your card draw enchantments.

[SocorroTortoise]

I see a lot of creatures and a lot of Reclamation Sage effects in here. But I notice you aren't running Aura Shards. Given you aren't a token deck I guess its kind of ok not to run it but given how many rec sage effects you have in here I thought its at least worth consideration.

Birthing Pod might also be nice in here given your commander lets you recast creatures and you have a lot of ETB effects.

I'm really iffy on if you want to be the guy with aura shards out these days. Most times I see it the owner becomes public enemy #1 forever.

Agree 100% on pod but from what I can tell the OP has basically no tutors in it, so may be avoiding tutoring? None of the usual suspects.

I'll shill a little for the Cavaliers. All three of your on color cavaliers are pretty powerful though I think cavalier of dawn is likely to be the strongest; presents some recursion for things that're fairly important to your gameplan, some removal, and a good sized body.

I'm also a pretty huge fan of karmic guide in Karador lists. It self-sacrifices and lets you recast your expensive cards for cheaper while also generating a sacrifice with Leap or similar, and additional triggers on your card draw enchantments.

This is right on the money for both Aura Shards and Pod. I've been on an intentional slight power down kick for a while (along with the rest of my group) and am intentionally avoiding some format staples, including Pod and Aura Shards. That's also the reason for no Sol Ring and limited/no nonland tutors, particularly the unrestricted black ones. It's as much being tired of seeing the same cards every game as anything else. Pod may still find its way in at some point because it's one of my favorite cards and it's mostly a value piece here.

The Cavaliers are interesting. I don't think Cavalier of Thorns offers substantially more than lower CMC options here, so that's unlikely to make the cut. Cavalier of Night is appealing in that it's a force multiplier for Karador and other recursion. Saccing a creature is basically not a cost here, CMC is not significantly more than Ravenous Chupacabra (which is another strong contender for the deck), and the recursion on death hits a lot of powerful creatures here. Cavalier of Dawn is also appealing.

The biggest thing I'd like to avoid with any of those or Karmic Guide is the high CMC. I'm sitting a little higher on the curve than I like for this style deck as is, and the six drops other than Izoni, Thousand-Eyed are probably already the worst cards in the deck. If I add more 5 drops, I'd like to cut from the top of the curve. Regna, the Redeemer is the closest to being cut. She's not bad, but her best feature is finding Krav, the Unredeemed when she comes in. Krav is good enough on his own so I don't think I'd mind losing Regna. Nissa, Vital Force is also a little questionable, despite being one of my favorite cards. The regrowth is nice and the ult is both powerful and attainable. She does tend to draw a lot of attention because of that though. I could see losing one or both of those for one of the Cavaliers and something a little farther down the curve like the aforementioned Chupcabra.

[WizardMN]

I know you said you were only 3 cards away from true singleton which means you will only have 6 basics. At 6 basics and 4 ways to get them (2 of which are creatures) I feel you will run out of basics super quick. 9 might be low as well but I guess this comment is more along the lines of "don't go to only 6 basics" as you lose a fair amount of utility with looping Sakura-Tribe Elder and Farhaven Elf.

I don't really like Izoni since she is relatively high costed but I also never really ran her either. I would be curious to know how well she actually works out.

Ministrant of Obligation looks really weak even if you have Teysa on board. Speaking of Teysa, she only works with 7 of your creatures if I counted correctly and I am not sure that is really good enough since things like Ministrant and even Seraph might not be good enough on their own.

Regna the Redeemer is one I tried in one of my decks (I think in Teysa maybe) and I never liked her since she is 6 mana. Krav is good enough on his own, but I would think to cut Regna for something like Sun Titan. This doesn't help with your curve issues you mentioned, but I think it is a better 6 drop.

Your list did remind me I need to get Yawgmoth into my list. I have been thinking of it for a while but I keep putting it off and forgetting about it since I don't have a foil copy yet. I might need to re-focus on getting one.

[SocorroTortoise]

Yeah, the current basic count is already super greedy. I know it's not a good plan to cut that down even further and I won't actually do it given that this is much lower than I like to be anyways.

Izoni has been surprisingly solid. I wasn't expecting to like her much and she is very susceptible to GY hate, but the token generation on top of a built in draw engine has been valuable enough. Seraph of the Scales has been similarly surprising. I definitely included it primarily because I liked the art and overall feel of the card. The combination of vigilance and deathtouch (even with the effective upkeep cost to take advantage of those) is always nice to have as a defensive option, and generating two flying tokens on death has been solid. Ministrant has also been working well. It looks unassuming, but there are relatively few ways to generate three bodies at 3 CMC in these colors even if two of them come delayed. The only real competition it has is something like Hallowed Spiritkeeper, which is more state dependent.

Teysa does only work with 7 creatures and a couple of those interactions (e.g. Meren of Clan Nel Toth) aren't really worth dedicating a card to. Her real power has been with the noncreature permanents that trigger: Skullclamp, Dictate of Erebos, and Fecundity. Doubling up on card draw and edicts is much higher power than an additional ping or token generation. There used to be more of those effects in the list, but it's lost focus somewhat as I play around with new things. It may be time to reevaluate Teysa or try and focus back in a little more. One of the perils of trying all the shiny new toys simultaneously.

I still haven't even drawn Yawgmoth, Thran Physician. He seems like he should be a solid fit so that's disappointing. I'm very optimistic about him.

I think I'm swapping Athreos and Lark in for Regna and Nissa. They're more on theme for the deck, they play nicely with Teysa, and they bring the curve down somewhat. Lark brings back 27/39 creatures and I think I like it more than either Sun Titan or Karmic Guide here, both of which are great suggestions farther up the thread. I like that both of these can take some pressure off of Karador for recursion. While the cost reduction is usually enough, all it takes is a Tormod's Crypt or similar to make him effectively uncastable. Lark being able to combo with Saffi Eriksdotter isn't my favorite thing because I try and avoid combo, but at the end of the day a table kill with those two involves at least 4 cards and has a few points of interaction. If it ends up being the end state of the game too many times, I'll revisit.

[WizardMN]

True. It still doesn't seem like a lot for Teysa to interact with but maybe it is enough. Fecundity is interesting as Teysa will allow your opponents to draw an extra card each time. Probably not the biggest deal but something to think of.

Interestingly, your comment on Sun Titan and Saffi is one of the reasons I don't run Saffi.

Athreos could be good but I don't like Enduring Renewal since it gives a lot of information away and stops you from getting creature cards in your hand. Not a big deal with Karador but it could be relevant.

[SocorroTortoise]

Made some list updates with the new cards, even if I'm not anticipating using them for a while yet.

In

+ Fiend Artisan
+ Lurrus of the Dream-Den
+ Nethroi, Apex of Death
+ Mythos of Nethroi

Out

- Izoni, Thousand-Eyed
- Rankle, Master of Pranks
- Reveillark
- Perilous Forays

Lark is coming out relatively quickly to limit the list's combo potential. Other cuts are primarily aimed at bringing the curve down slightly while filling broadly similar roles. Rankle and Mythos are both occupying removal slots, Lurrus and Lark are both for recursion of small permanents (Lurrus is admittedly here on more of a trial run), Izoni and Nethroi are both late game haymakers taking advantage of a stocked yard, and Artisan and Forays both turn creatures that have outlived their usefulness into additional resources. I generally play pretty tutor light, so I'll see how I feel about this after I actually have a chance to play around with it. I do like that it's also an inexpensive creature with the potential to be a sizable beater late game.

Of the other new stuff, Tayam, Luminous Enigma and Luminous Broodmoth are both cards I'm interested in. I don't think the list has quite enough counter interactions as is to really support Tayam, so I'm postponing that. Broodmoth requires less reworking and is already well supported - most of the creatures here don't fly. Most likely cuts for that are probably Teysa Karlov or Ministrant of Obligation, both of which I'd still like to play around with more, so I'm similarly holding off on finding a slot for Broodmoth.

[WizardMN]

I cut Perilous Forays from my deck a long time ago so I don't think you will miss it at all. And I think Izoni is probably the right cut as well.

The other two are likely down to experiences with them but I wouldn't disagree with them at all.

I am curious on how well Nethroi works. I am on the fence about it due to the cost but it seems like it could do a lot of work. I like Fiend Artisan as well (I plan on replacing Pod with it).

Lurrus is one that your deck seems like it can make a lot more use out of than mine can so it seems reasonable. I wonder how many times you have something to get back that is also worth getting back.

[SocorroTortoise]

Yeah, as much as I like Perilous Forays as a card, it's pretty clunky. Izoni has been surprisingly effective so far. I could see her making it back into the list at some point. The biggest issue is just the 6 CMC. I like that Nethroi can come down as a respectable body with relevant keywords at 5 CMC in a pinch, even if the primary reason it's there is for the mutate trigger. I also like that it's typically going to provide other targets to mutate onto with the trigger, so sac and recur is a very viable plan.

Lurrus is probably the card I'm most interested in testing. It recurs around 1/3 of the list, and about 1/3 of those are things that self sac and should be easy to get in the yard. Most of the staying power in this list comes from recurring small things anyways, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

Glancing over the list again, I realized I've also been looking for a replacement for Find // Finality for a while. I may cut that for Luminous Broodmoth. Not quite the same role, but comparable costs and I think Broodmoth spreading evasion around the team will help to make up for losing a sweeper.