Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger Tokens

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I had a good look at the spoiled C21 cards to see what else might be worth including alongside Veyran, Voice of Duality. I suppose the Simic or Orzhov deck may contribute something too, but here are my standouts from the izzet/Boros lists:

Reinterpret is a spicy Sunforger target with great blowout potential. I'll probably swap Dovin's Veto or Render Silent out for it.

Surge to Victory is really cool and splashy, but so so expensive. When it works though, it will be great. I don't think I'll run it yet, but I'll keep it in mind.

Rousing Refrain and Inspiring Refrain are cool, but only truly great if you suspend early and get multiple casts off it re suspending. Pass for now.

Rionya, Fire Dancer is frustratingly close to being great. I suppose paying 5, copying a mentor, then going all stormy is a cool play. Or going all stormy then pooping out a bunch of extra tokens with haste at combat. The problem is I've got options for cheaper token production, and her best case scenario of storming both before and after her trigger is a little "magical Christmas land"esque. If I'm doing that I've probably already got a win on board. I want to consider her more, but it'll probably be a pass.

Edit: on second thought, Rionya, Fire Dancer being mono red is kind of a big deal. I can storm a bit, then sac summoning sick spirits to pay for her and recoup the tokens with haste. Also, I hadn't fully considered the possibilities with Mystic Reflection and Mirrorweave... I think I will find room for her after all.

Cross your fingers for a sweet blue token card from the Simic deck!
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago



Well, I wasn't expecting an asymmetrical, instant speed board wipe that dodges some commander tax, but I'll definitely take it. I love me some Hour of Reckoning, but I think this will be an easy swap.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I didn't mention Archaeomancer's Map in the above posts, and I think that was a mistake. The more I consider it, I think it's pretty great since the deck draws so well and excess lands in hand aren't uncommon.

The issues I have with it are:

- What to cut for it? Maybe Land Tax to exchange fixing and superior draw for ramp, which might be worth it for this non green list. Plus, this is the extra push to get me looking to add Lotus Field and not just Flagstones of Trokair, so there's some nice synergy.

- Do I add more basic plains? I'm currently at two, so it's not unthinkable that this would only draw 1 (or 0) if I don't add more. Perhaps I could cut the manland for one more. Archaeomancer's Map also plays nice with bouncelands, so there's the question of adding them. I'm off of Turnabout, but still run Frantic Search.

- Is it appropriate given my curve out? Most games are T1 cantrip/loot, T2 ramp, T3 Kykar/mentor, or interact, or draw. I guess being at 3 mana lets me T3 map and look to cantrip or cheat a land out then draw/interact. I dunno, being 3 mana ramp kind of makes it awkward and possibly slows down my early game in hopes of turbo charging the mid game. Probably fine, but it crossed my mind. It's the reason I don't run Smothering Tithe, but I think going from 4 to 3 and ramping lands instead of being a highly annoying noticeable treasure casino changes things.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Well, I discovered a new combo in a game today. It's a really obvious one and to be honest I'm kind of embarrassed I didn't notice it sooner. Funny thing is it centers around two cards I'm getting ready to cut, which is just as well since I'm not looking to be a dedicated combo deck.

With Soulfire Grand Master and 9 lands in play, activate soulfire, then cast Turnabout and tap the remaining land for mana in response. Untap all lands, return Turnabout to hand. Repeat for arbitrary storm/mana (and tokens if Kykar or a mentor are in play). I followed it all up with a Heroic Reinforcements for the swarm beatdown victory.

Just as an added note: this was made possible by Sevinne's Reclamation which was responsible for my 9 lands on turn 7. That card's good. You should play it.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Alrighty. That's a wrap for C21 spoilers. So here's where the dust settles for me:




I already covered most of my thought processes in recent posts, but I snuck in a few more here.

Impact TremorsRionya, Fire Dancer - So... hear me out. Nine times out of ten, Impact Tremors is a win con that I slam when I've got arbitrary storm or some absurd amount of token production set up. In many of those situations Goblin Bombardment is functionally the same. The reason to run both is that sometimes, for example if storm/tokens are not "infinite", then Bombardment can fall short where Tremors would not. The tradeoff for running just Bombardment over just Tremors is the board control in situations where the win isn't in the bag just yet, so I think I will err in that direction. Rionya, Fire Dancer is a spicy meatball. I can't wait until I get the chance to build up a bit of a storm count, sac spirits to pay for her, and then respond to her trigger with a Mystic Reflection. This does continue my trend of making some high ceiling / low floor inclusions in the deck, but I think I'm ok with that.

Mandate of PeaceIdol of Oblivion - Mandate is one of my favorite Sunforger pieces, to be clear. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy having a Fog ready at any time, especially against stuff in my meta like Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow and Gishath, Sun's Avatar. That said, it has lost a step since I've veered away from combo a bit since it is now merely a fog and no longer a Silence as far as the deck is concerned. I'm sad to see it go, but Idol of Oblivion is a card I've had my eye on for some time and just kept on forgetting about. Obviously it's here for the extra cards and the low, low cost, but the second ability will eventually be relevant when someone goes to wipe the board and I can just float 8 from spirits in response then poop out an eldrazi afterward. I'm always keen to include ways to mitigate board wipes, and having something that does so while also having repeatable card draw stapled to it is nice.

Needle SpiresPlains - This is just to support Archaeomancer's Map. I almost never do the manland + Jeskai Ascendancy trick, so the ETB tapped land is kind of a liability tbh.

15 cards is a lot. Sheesh, I feel like I revamp this deck so much, but it's just playing better and better each time, so I won't go feeling too bad about all the changes.

The only other swap I considered was Mystic MonasteryLotus Field since I am adding Flagstones of Trokair and Archaeomancer's Map. As cute as the Lotus synergies would be, saccing two lands that aren't Flagstones or without ArchMap in hand would be a huge liability. Since I'm not running Expedition Map or Weathered Wayfarer to set things up it's gonna be a no from me dawg.

I'll update the OP when I have all the cards physically sleeved up.
Last edited by MeowZeDung 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

Nice changes. I am not sure if the interaction between Cleansing Wildfire and Cascading Cataracts and Flagstones of Trokair is enough to warrant the inclusion of either Cataracts or Wildfire, especially with the addition of Archaeomancer's Map taking 2 basics out of your library (potentially). I will definitely be watching to see how that ends up working out for you. I do like the interaction with Flagstones to be nicer but that is only because I don't like that Cataracts takes 6 mana (including the mana "lost" from tapping itself) to get you 5 mana.

Idol though is one I need to keep in mind. I remember my friend using that to great effect in Atla Palani and I kept thinking "maybe when I get a token deck, I should add it" and I still never thought of it for Kykar. Only 2 mana and it should get at least 1 card every turn cycle.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
Nice changes. I am not sure if the interaction between Cleansing Wildfire and Cascading Cataracts and Flagstones of Trokair is enough to warrant the inclusion of either Cataracts or Wildfire, especially with the addition of Archaeomancer's Map taking 2 basics out of your library (potentially). I will definitely be watching to see how that ends up working out for you. I do like the interaction with Flagstones to be nicer but that is only because I don't like that Cataracts takes 6 mana (including the mana "lost" from tapping itself) to get you 5 mana.
7 basics should keep Cleansing Wildfire from being a brick more often than not I hope. Also, the ramp is it's "cute" mode; it's also here to wreck some Cabal Coffers and Field of the Deads.

Re: Cascading Cataracts - I thought the same, but I pretty consistently run into the issue of having excess r and being pinched on u/w. Changes to the manabase have helped a lot, and cataracts gives me the additional option of using a spirit for a net loss of 1 as a price for converting mana to the color(s) I need in the moment. The ramp trick is gravy in my mind. The fact that it is just a land that taps for mana by itself and doesn't enter tapped means that it's floor isn't a disaster.

I will say though, that this is absolutely experimental. @ISBPathfinder laid out the whole package in one of his threads recently which includes Lotus Field and Weathered Wayfarer. It certainly gets a LOT better when the tutors like wayfarer or Expedition Map/Crop Rotation are involved, but the way I'm looking at it is that I'm not really losing out on all that much by including flagstones/cataracts if it doesn't come together in-game, and I'm fine with Cleansing Wildfire just as a piece of interaction that cantrips. It also really amuses me that Sevinne's Reclamation - one of my current non-green sneaky ramp pieces - may also do some fun stuff with flagstones, or by letting me Cleansing Wildfire something like Mystic Sanctuary then SevRec it back.
Idol though is one I need to keep in mind. I remember my friend using that to great effect in Atla Palani and I kept thinking "maybe when I get a token deck, I should add it" and I still never thought of it for Kykar. Only 2 mana and it should get at least 1 card every turn cycle.
Yeah, totally. I would do the same thing every time I saw that card, then forget about it. It's kind of low key Phyrexian Arena/Kumena's Awakening for us, and I don't really foresee people using spot removal on it.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

Making a quick note here before I forget: @pokken just clued me into some sweet tech in Manifold Insights and I want to log it here. I'll likely squeeze it in with the next update.

Speaking of updates, I do have my new cards, just haven't sleeved em and updated the OP yet. It's been a minute since I've played with my bird buddy. Soon, friend. Soon.

Also - somehow I didn't note it in my STX/C21 update, but I will be adding Mistveil Plains to the list, which was a gross oversight on my part in a Sunforger deck. Not sure the exact swap yet. Probably Mystic Monastery.

EDIT: OP decklist and changelog have been updated. Somehow I failed to include a Solve the Equation in my last order, so for the time being I'll run Aetherworks Marvel in that slot just because I've always wanted to try it out. Hoping to get some games in soon!
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

Hey hey! First game with the new rotation happened even sooner than expected!

I won, but frankly got very lucky in that the Rashmi, Eternities Crafter player got screwed on green mana despite scrying several times and Mind Springing for five, and the Adrix and Nev, Twincasters player was unable to dig to a board wipe or answer to my bonkers enchantments and army of flyers despite saccing something like 7-8 clue tokens. That said, the deck did play very well and some new additions made appearances.

T1 Fetch → Shock → Gamble for an Arcane Signet paid off and T2 Signet → Skullclamp led to T3 Anointed Procession and T4 Tragic Arrogance (and like a dummy I forgot I had two artifacts on board since I tend to put my rocks down by my lands). T5 was a Fact or Fiction split looking for lands that instead found two rocks, Underworld Breach, Frantic Search, and something I can't remember that wasn't relevant. Opponent wisely split into Breach + rock I couldn't afford / Search + other rock I couldn't afford and random spell. I took the breach pile naturally. Rashmi, Eternities Crafter's next land drop was a Scavenger Grounds... of course.

I don't remember exact sequencing from that point on, but Archaeomancer's Map put me up a card and ramped me twice, which is fantastic. First Day of Class slingshot me into 5 hasty spirits with counters that were then Mirrorweaved after blocks into Voracious Greatsharks to crunch in on Adrix and Nev, Twincasters for 30+ alongside Kykar. Again, Rashmi was unfortunately color screwed despite lots of action, so the next combat step was just a matter of trivially going off with Jeskai Ascendancy, Haze of Rage, and Tears of Rage.

Don't let the Kykar player run amok with Anointed Procession kids. It's bad for your health.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

I haven't combed mh2 spoilers too much yet, but Dragon's Rage Channeler caught my eye. I posted this in the main forum and thought I'd post it here too.


I'm torn on this one. On the one hand, I think Dragon's Rage Channeler on turn one is phenomenal. Turn 2 Signet/talisman or draw spell and you're off to the races. Honestly, I think t1 channeler might match t1 Ponder frequently. Setting up future Underworld Breach and Sevinne's Reclamation nonsense is gravy, and a 3/3 flyer ain't nothing.

On the other hand, surveil is not draw, this uses a creature slot, and it is a poor late game draw a lot of the time.


Discuss.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

Burning Prophet has been stellar in my Feather garbagestorm. If you're anywhere near as cast-spammy as I am, you're gonna like this bugger. Plus, as you mentioned, the Underworld Breach perks are nice gravy.
 
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

Yup, and surveil is waaaaay ahead of scry imo. A lot of Kykar discussion on the forum recently has been about mitigating flood, and this kind of selection certainly helps.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

Interesting, why do you think surveil is better than scry? Because of your 'yard synergies? I'd rather scry in Feather, but that's a bit of a weird case as I want a fat deck to have a margin to set Zada Hoof up.
 
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

Yard synergies, and because nearly anything I'd want to bottom and tutor up later I can just recur.

If I run channeler I may just revisit Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 2 years ago

In that case give it a test run at the very least. I'm like 90+% sure this will end up in Feather, but will need some test games to check, just in case.
 
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

Ok, so I'm reading over what's been spoiled so far and I'm like, "huh, Urza's Saga seems likely. Junk Winder is neat but probably a no. Mental Journey is flexible and powerful, but also probably a no. Spreading Insurrection is powerful but... lame. Nothing else too exciting. . . Dermotaxi maybe. . . *jaw drop* uhhhhhhhhhh nevermind."



Ok... where to begin.

Not too long ago I had been thinking that I might be better off pulling away from the instant/sorcery plan and just going all in on noncreatures in general. This approach would leave me with bomb token makers in Monastery Mentor and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer and would play nice with the "oops, all kykars" gameplan of Spark Double/Sakashima of a Thousand Faces/Sakashima the Impostor/Helm of the Host. Furthermore, I wouldn't be losing out on the raw power of stuff like Jeskai Ascendancy and Whirlwind of Thought, and some stuff like Kindred Discovery would become even bombier.

Enter Rionya, Fire Dancer and Veyran, Voice of Duality, quickly pulling me back into the instant/sorcery line of thought. The only other cards I can think of right off hand that really keep me zeroed in on those specific noncreature types are Young Pyromancer and Murmuring Mystic since I just gave Talrand the boot and all the other instant/sorcery specific stuff a la Mystic Retrieval is replaceable.

Harmonic Prodigy makes me want to double down on instants/sorceries even more now since it's essentially another (CHEAPER!) Veyran, Voice of Duality, albeit for a smaller subset of permanents. It just so happens my commander lies within that smaller subset. I don't want to be too magical Christmas land-esque in my thinking. . . but dang. It's not wildly out of the ordinary to get Kykar, a mentor, and some additional augmenting thing like Anointed Procession into play at the same time. It happens in around 75% of my games. So imagine Harmonic Prodigy + Kykar + Young Pyromancer (a shaman) in play, cast a Preordain or whatever: get 2 spirits, 2 elementals, pump prodigy, resolve spell. Yeesh.

Combat isn't always the biggest deal in Commander, but the prowess is big game here. In this deck, prodigy is going to be a respectable body most of the time I think. In some fringe cases it's going to PK pretty efficiently after resolving a Perplexing Test on end step, running prodigy out on my turn, then storming off with some haste enabler tossed in the mix, then attacking with my tokens and a pumped up prodigy into an empty board.

That's not even the best part though. The best part is what this means for wizards/shamans that were close to being included that feel like slam dunks now with veyran and prodigy. Storm-Kiln Artist leaps immediately to mind. Elemental Expressionist could be cool. I'm not sure I'm down for the Guttersnipe, but that is definitely a thing. Dragon's Rage Channeler is a shaman - and prodigy itself implies MH2 will have some wizard/shaman matters stuff, so I'll be keeping an eye out.

I'll have to really do my homework on wizards/shamans with triggered abilities now, but between Kykar, Veyran, and now this new blood, I can't see this not being a sweet development for the deck. Probably time to save up and bite the bullet on Spark Double and Sakashima of a Thousand Faces too.
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I plan on having a larger write-up in my thread about Harmonic Prodigy but it seems good enough, even with just Kykar, that it might be enough for me to break my "no creatures" rule. Which, of course, means I likely just revisit some other creatures as well since if the seal is broken, I might as well open up the possibility to other options. Interestingly, I likely don't go too far into additional token makers but more stuff to complement Kykar specifically.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

Prodigy goes particularly nicely with Rionya, Fire Dancer, who in turn is fine alone with Kykar. But prodigy + Rionya can be set up so that you make a pile of prodigy tokens then "multi-prowess" with some spell slinging in combat. Sick beats.

Honestly, if you're looking for just a small package of creatures that aren't specifically token makers, I'd start with Rionya, Prodigy, Sakashimas/Spark Double, and Veyran.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

Ok, with the full MH2 spoiler out, I think I've pretty well settled on what cards I am seriously considering or sure about.




As I consider more about how I'm looking to adjust the deck more toward a more commander centric plan with stuff like Spark Double, Veyran, Voice of Duality, and Harmonic Prodigy, I get twitchy. I really don't want to paint myself into a corner where the deck just can't function if my opponent's time some solid spot removal or counterspells for Kykar. So, I've thought about either adding more counters of my own, looking at flexible protection spells like Lazotep Plating, Mizzium Skin, or Brave the Elements, OR just going all Feather, the Redeemed and loading up on cantrippy protection a la Shelter.

I like Blacksmith's Skill as an option somewhere there in the middle because it's just stupid cheap but also protects from both spot removal, enchantment based effects like Mystic Subdual, and damage/destruction based sweepers. Cyclonic Rift still gets me, but there's no commander tax there at least. Toxic Deluge is really the only effect it doesn't help with. I'm still on the fence about it, but I am absolutely considering bird insurance policies.




These probably got enough discussion in the thread already. Suffice to say I'm very hyped for Harmonic Prodigy. I can imagine Channeler being a huge boon or a huge bust. We'll see.




This is pretty unassuming. I almost overlooked it. But consider all it does:
  • early game ramp into Kykar that fixes colors temporarily and can be flashed back later if necessary.

  • it is a +2 mana spell with Kykar in play, +1 if spirit mana was used edit: hurr durr maths is hard. It's +1 mana with Kykar in play, mana neutral if spirit mana was used. Critically, it once again fixes colors.

  • perfect spell for a Underworld Breach turn that needs just a bit more gas. Usually what that means is a turn where I'm down to my last untapped land or two (usually red) and haven't found Frantic Search yet. Strike let's me escape a couple times for some treasure to escape a blue draw spell or cantrip a few more times in that situation - again while being mana positive AND fixing.
I've got to think about cuts and other potential inclusions before I make a final decision, but I'm guessing it will be 3/4 or 4/4 of these cards plus Spark Double and Storm-Kiln Artist for sure, plus anything else fancy I may find while scouring for wicked cool wizard/shaman hijinks to be had with Harmonic Prodigy.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 2 years ago

A buddy talked me into doing some MH2 sealed with prerelease packs last night. I opened exactly 0 of the 4 cards I mentioned above for inclusion in Kykar :P

In a bit of personal news, however, ya boy did get lucky and upgrade his fetchland collection with a Scalding Tarn! I also pulled a Svyelun of Sea and Sky and Patriarch's Bidding that I can trade in and hopefully turn into an Arid Mesa and a Misty Rainforest if prices drop low enough - or at least make up enough of the difference to not be completely nauseated.

6/12/21

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Post by MeowZeDung » 1 year ago

Well. It's been a while. I dropped off the face of the earth and cut back on magic in general and commander specifically for quite a while. Basically I cubed a lot and brewed around a bit offline with other commanders. I finally got a surge of reinterest in this deck though, and it led me to do a lot of hard thinking about what I want out of a game of commander and Kykar specifically.

Long story short, I've realized that Kykar is more of a concept to me than a deck. What I mean is, it is such an open ended card to build around that I just find myself wanting to do ALL the things, and one list just can't hack it. I've often mentioned creating alternate lists for Kykar, and I think now that I have a newfound interest in all things Jeskai it is time for me to sink a little bit of my hobby time into working all this stuff out and slamming keys about it.

First, I present to you the below list (forgive me, I've forgotten most of the formatting stuff I used to do with this bbcode, so it's just a copy paste pile right now.), which will be my new "default" working list as of today, and it will be the most straightforward of the builds - focused primarily on proc'ing Kykar itself. As I mentioned, several aspects of my commander and Kykar ethos have changed, so I will have to do a big overhaul of the primer. That will be the first task to chip away at.

Second, I've barely looked at anything AFR/NEO/SNC/New precons or whatever else may have happened since MH2, so a big "new" card evaluation is in order. I'll get to that after the OP rewrite, and hopefully before the NEXT set.

Third, I'll start systematically brewing and posting the ideas of alt lists I've got kicking around. I'm excited about what may come of this, and I imagine ultimately I'll end up with a sort of modular build that I can switch around at a whim based on mood, pod, or whatever.
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Post by RxPhantom » 10 months ago

I don't know if you're still lurking around, @MeowZeDung, but I've been really enjoying Kykar these days.
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