Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger Tokens

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Windswept Heath and/or Polluted Delta. Sigh. Might be the correct use of my budget, and they certainly enable Mystic Sanctuary. Blargh though. Stupid lands.
Same boat here, bud. I think there's probably other ways to get good value from Mystic Sanctuary other than fetches, although there's other benefits of course. I've looked into it with my Dralnu, Lich Lord list (under reconstruction) and of course darrenhabib did a massive, expansive and probably complete exposé on the Sanctuary when it first released a few months back.

The way I see it, Tangoes, Bicycles and shocks give you enough to ensure you hit the requisite number of islands. Running any number of these in redundancy should mean you get three in play with enough reliability to make it a reasonable trigger to rely on.

Then, in terms of repeated value, you're already running the Ravnica bounces. Obviously Sanctuary is your target. On top of that you have spells that you can choose to cast by returning lands to your hand instead of paying CMC (Gushetc). Cryptic Command and Mystic Confluence can bounce it for you too. Tidespout Tyrant can bounce it. There's bound to be other things that can do it too, these are just what I've found in my travels.

Then there's the payoff for it, getting spells you want to repeatedly cast. Miracle cards seem like good options; Banishing Stroke, Reforge the Soul, Devastation Tide, Terminus...

I'm not saying fetches aren't the right way to spend your money; almost certainly they'll hold their value better than anything else you pick up, if that's a concern. They probably have applications beyond Mystic Sanctuary too, so there's that. In my estimation though, and on a limited budget, I definitely prefer to spend my money to spread as far as it can over multiple cards. And that's purely because if I can improve a deck with multiple cards over one it's almost certainly going to perform more reliably in more circumstances. It also makes me feel like I'm less wasting my money too, lol.

Just my two cents; allied fetches are at a pretty good price atm, so it could be the right call.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
allied fetches are at a pretty good price atm, so it could be the right call.
That's the infuriating part. I kind of feel compelled to buy a stupid Heath/Delta because I don't know if they'll ever be this low again. Well, heath at least.

Oh, how I wish Banishing Stroke was sunforger fetchable! That would be a sweet Sanctuary payoff for the deck.
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
allied fetches are at a pretty good price atm, so it could be the right call.
That's the infuriating part. I kind of feel compelled to buy a stupid Heath/Delta because I don't know if they'll ever be this low again. Well, heath at least.

Oh, how I wish Banishing Stroke was sunforger fetchable! That would be a sweet Sanctuary payoff for the deck.
I've thought the same. Ultimately I went other routes. I recently chalked up $150 odd credit with my LGS after trading a Thrasios, Triton Hero, Volrath's Stronghold and some other smaller bits. The temptation was to grab some fetches and wait till standard rotate to fill out some shocks, too. But then 2XM came out and I went in other directions, and picked up some cheap reprints, some of which at least will spring back up in value again (not that I'm an investor, I just try to spend what money I do have wisely).

What fuelled it partially was two things though:
- There's at least a non-zero/relatively good chance we see fetches reprinted sometime soonish. If not in standard, in reprint/draft sets. It might not be this year, it might not be next, but it'll happen. And I absolutely can wait to drop coin on that.
- How far down the 'optimising land-base' rabbit hole did I actually want to go? If I get them for one deck, I ought to get them for others, and then I'm out of pocket hundreds, because I have like 14 decks. Aside from that not all of them will be around for ever, so what's the point? Most of my land bases work just fine, if not optimally, and to really make the most of fetches you're really best off picking up the associated shocks too. Like, the land base expense just never ends, so in the end I decided to look elsewhere.

Further food for thought. Honestly, spend your money how you think it's best spent, not how someone with fetches to burn thinks you should spend it. If that's getting fetches, great, but for my decks, I'm absolutely ok not having them.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Further food for thought. Honestly, spend your money how you think it's best spent, not how someone with fetches to burn thinks you should spend it. If that's getting fetches, great, but for my decks, I'm absolutely ok not having them.
I really would like one full set of 10 eventually, and I share cards between my decks and do the extra legwork of cataloging/pulling cards to build a list on the fly before a game night anyhow so I would really get the max use out of them. However, in the meantime 2XM just came out and you're right, they will be reprinted eventually and I can be patient. I'm leaning most heavily towards Land Tax with the cash I'll have left after picking up what I've already firmly decided on. It's just so good and will be great in a lot of decks. That, and it goes a long way to turning on Mystic Sanctuary by itself!
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Post by toctheyounger » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
3 years ago
Further food for thought. Honestly, spend your money how you think it's best spent, not how someone with fetches to burn thinks you should spend it. If that's getting fetches, great, but for my decks, I'm absolutely ok not having them.
I really would like one full set of 10 eventually, and I share cards between my decks and do the extra legwork of cataloging/pulling cards to build a list on the fly before a game night anyhow so I would really get the max use out of them. However, in the meantime 2XM just came out and you're right, they will be reprinted eventually and I can be patient. I'm leaning most heavily towards Land Tax with the cash I'll have left after picking up what I've already firmly decided on. It's just so good and will be great in a lot of decks. That, and it goes a long way to turning on Mystic Sanctuary by itself!
Yeah I ended up picking up Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Depths and a couple other bigger pieces that'll probably stay fairly expensive.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I've given it some more thought and decided that, if I'm going to slot in Land Tax and cut some slower duals for basics to enable Mystic Sanctuary, I should find room for Prophetic Prism and Ghostly Flicker. Those two plus Sanctuary and Bonus Round give infinite storm, and if I have a sol ring in the mix it's infinite colored mana too. Edit: Kykar triggers on cast, so I was thinking no spirit from the flickered prism meant no infinite mana. I forgot that the repeated flicker casts were a thing, so I could filter a spirit through prism each time it looped. Sweet.

My meta does feature some of the "stuck commander" removal like Frogify, and Ghostly Flicker helps with that while also dodging targeted removal and aiding chump blocks, so it's ok even outside the combo. It can slow loop with just sanctuary too.

Prophetic Prism is... not exciting, but it is better than Mulldrifter or Cloudblazer here since 1) it's a non creature 2) it storms and cantrips 3) it filters a spirit into a u/w mana. Anything mana neutral when I'm going off with Anointed Procession + Underworld Breach tends to work out well. So, again, decent even without the combo.

Thoughts?
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Post by rogerandover » 3 years ago

You could switch to snow-lands and play Arcum's Astrolabe instead.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

rogerandover wrote:
3 years ago
You could switch to snow-lands and play Arcum's Astrolabe instead.
Even after the proposed changes my basic count will be around 10 or so, and that wouldn't be enough snow for astrolabe to be a consistent play from my opening hand I don't think, and the benefit gained is pretty marginal imo. Maybe if I get a hankering for Skred at some point.



Solid win last night vs Rashmi, Eternities Crafter, Thrasios, Triton Hero & Vial Smasher the Fierce, and Gishath, Sun's Avatar.

It featured:

- A turn 4 Zendikar Resurgent from thras/vial which terrified me. Long live Generous Gift. They got value first, but nothing game warping.

- Skullclamp doing skullclamp stuffs with saheeli servos.

- A counterspell war 4 deep on the stack which I lost and didn't even mind because all the cast triggers were so great.

- Jeskai Ascendancy making me the archenemy after I dealt 25 to thras/vial in one attack (t6ish) and got rashmi up to 15 or so commander damage.

- A Brain Freeze targeting myself on a storm count of 3 for value. I was promptly Bojuka Bogged for 30 cards which included a handful of combo pieces. Barf.

- A clutch Massacre Girl from thras/vial which Duneblasted.

- The poor, mana screwed Gishath player sticking a Taurean Mauler with a Blood Mist on board, having it grow into an 11/11, and then having Rashmi Expel from Orazca it to the top of their deck to blank their draw and keep them off lands. Savage. They had Fierce Empathed for a Regal Behemoth earlier, but never got enough mana to cast it.

- Rashmi's trigger revealing a Crafty Cutpurse and putting it in their hand. I couldn't stand for such aggression, so I did the reasonable thing and won before they could untap and have the mana to play it.

- Despite my gy now being considerably smaller, Bonus Round into Turnabout ritualed and let me spellsling enough to dig into Underworld Breach and Faithless Looting. I demonstrated to the table what forked faithless looting + breach could do one time and explained that I still had Anointed Procession, Goblin Bombardment, and The Locust God in my library, prompting concessions.

The deck's got the goods people.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

So, Winds of Change has still been on the brain a bit. If I find myself with a huge grip (not uncommon), but still lack Bonus Round or Underworld Breach to start comboing off, I can recycle it with winds for a big dig for combo goodies. Winds also has the added benefits of being hand disruption, cheap, incredible with The Locust God, and another game winning combo for the deck with kykar + Locust god + breach + tremors/bombardment. My concern is that it could just be win-more since I want a big hand before I fire it off, and a big hand tends to already have a powerful plan. I think it's worth testing in my next update.
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Post by Card Slinger J » 3 years ago

So this was about as Spellslingerish as I could get with Kykar, Wind's Fury before I tore it apart:

Decklist

Commander (1)

1 Kykar, Wind's Fury

Planeswalkers (1)

1 Ral, Storm Conduit
Approximate Total Cost:

Strategy is to control the board state with Spirits using Kykar, Wind's Fury. As the deck later progressed the amount of synergy it has with Sensei's Divining Top was just too good to ignore so I figured why not capitalize on it as much as my Commander? Bishop of Wings and Arcane Adaptation is mainly in here as a wincon with Kykar, Wind's Fury that I can potentially tutor up If need be If I fail to draw into a massive burn spell like Banefire.
"Salvation is for those who are afraid of Hell. Spirituality is for those who have lived through it."

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Top is great with Kykar, no doubt. Infinite with Elsha out too.

I love the Bishop of Wings + Arcane Adaptation + kykar synergy! That's sweet! Infinite life doesn't win for you though, so I assume you're just dumping all that mana into the Banefires or waiting till you have tremors/Purph out? Electrodominance is better than Kaervek's Torch and useful in more situations, so I'd recommend a swap there.

Anointed Procession + a haste enabler wins with bishop/adapt/kykar too.

You might also run Mirror Entity as another adaptation/Shields of Velis Vel that you could go get with Drift of Phantasms or Dizzy Spell.

Luminarch Ascension seems good for your list.

Hmmm Overmaster is a card I didn't know existed. Very interesting.

Love it!
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Well, I've already got several alternate lists I wanted to test then share, and now I'll have to add Kykar tribe tribal to the pile. This seems too fun to pass up.

If I start with @Card Slinger J's core combo of Arcane Adaptation + Bishop of Wings + Kykar, I could just add Altar of the Brood, Outpost Siege, Impact Tremors, Basri's Lieutenant + Metallic Mimic, and Electrodominance/Expansion // Explosion to win. As I mentioned before, Anointed Procession and haste (In the Web of War probably) works too, or I could Quasiduplicate the bishop.

Adding Mirror Entity spices things up A LOT. Suddenly, Cathars' Crusade, Valor in Akros,Goldnight Commander, and the aforementioned Metallic Mimic allow for an =0 activation from entity after every spirit etb. Pair that with Bishop of Wings to get the same effect as with Arcane Adaptation, but with every creature type instead of just angel. That opens up some nonsense like Pashalik Mons and Boggart Shenanigans to kill players, Drogskol Captain to Radiate hexproof, Knight Exemplar for indestructible, Stone Haven Outfitter
+ Sai of the Shinobi, Azami, Lady of Scrolls or just Skullclamp to draw a million and cash in on tribal death synergies, etc.

EtB stuff is tougher because it requires exactly Arcane Adaptation, but if I can get enough tutors and cards that reset it in order to pull it off there's Binding Mummy, Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign, Chasm Guide, Halimar Excavator, Hero of Goma Fada, Murasa Pyromancer, Dragon Tempest, Kazuul Warlord, Tuktuk Scrapper, Scourge of Valkas, Brimstone Trebuchet, etc.

Kindred Discovery is an obvious all star in this build.

I'm curious, @materpillar @DrKillenger @KitsuLeif, how would y'all approach tribe tribal with kykar given your experience with The Ur-Dragon, Morophon, the Boundless, and Reaper King?
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Post by materpillar » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago

If I start with @Card Slinger J's core combo of Arcane Adaptation + Bishop of Wings + Kykar, I could just add Altar of the Brood, Outpost Siege, Impact Tremors, Basri's Lieutenant + Metallic Mimic, and Electrodominance/Expansion // Explosion to win. As I mentioned before, Anointed Procession and haste (In the Web of War probably) works too, or I could Quasiduplicate the bishop.

Adding Mirror Entity spices things up A LOT. Suddenly, Cathars' Crusade, Valor in Akros,Goldnight Commander, and the aforementioned Metallic Mimic allow for an =0 activation from entity after every spirit etb. Pair that with Bishop of Wings to get the same effect as with Arcane Adaptation, but with every creature type instead of just angel. That opens up some nonsense like Pashalik Mons and Boggart Shenanigans to kill players, Drogskol Captain to Radiate hexproof, Knight Exemplar for indestructible, Stone Haven Outfitter
+ Sai of the Shinobi, Azami, Lady of Scrolls or just Skullclamp to draw a million and cash in on tribal death synergies, etc.

EtB stuff is tougher because it requires exactly Arcane Adaptation, but if I can get enough tutors and cards that reset it in order to pull it off there's Binding Mummy, Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign, Chasm Guide, Halimar Excavator, Hero of Goma Fada, Murasa Pyromancer, Dragon Tempest, Kazuul Warlord, Tuktuk Scrapper, Scourge of Valkas, Brimstone Trebuchet, etc.

Kindred Discovery is an obvious all star in this build.

I'm curious, @materpillar @DrKillenger @KitsuLeif, how would y'all approach tribe tribal with kykar given your experience with The Ur-Dragon, Morophon, the Boundless, and Reaper King?
The annoying thing about Kykar, Wind's Fury is changeling decks like relying on creatures and not non-creatures. So you'd basically been leaning on him more as a Phyrexian Altar in the command zone. That points me towards a more aristocrat build, but you're not black which has all the best aristocrat pay-offs. Doable but annoying.

I'd lean towards building some Faith's Reward/Second Sunrise/Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero + Lathliss, Dragon Queen/Molten Echoes/Luminous Broodmoth/Anointed Procession + Mirror Entity/Shields of Velis Vel egg-storm mess.

Artificial Evolution, Unnatural Selection, Xenograft and Runed Stalactite also play the Arcane Adaptation role, but not quite a well.

With a ton of spirit tokens, Cryptic Gateway makes every changeling free.
Faces of the Past is great with Kykar, Wind's Fury and changelings.


Slap in a Sunforger package to find Second Sunrise, Shields of Velis Vel, Crib Swap, Spit Flame and Blades of Velis Vel. Gain extra points for tutoring them again using Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero.

Oathkeeper, Takeno's Daisho + Puresteel Paladin and a changeling is immediate infinite.
Avacyn's Collar/Slayer's Plate + Puresteel Paladin will go infinite with Artificial Evolution/Arcane Adaptation
Basri's Lieutenant and Blade of the Bloodchief will get infinite spirit ETBs with Artificial Evolution/Arcane Adaptation
Heirloom Blade is an exceptional draw engine.

Xathrid Necromancer is B. :(


Going real deep, Farrelite Priest/Mycosynth Lattice + 3 non-token spirits + Second Sunrise + Archaeomancer is also infinite.
On second thought, Second Sunrise + Reverberate + Archaeomancer + Mirror Entity + Kykar, Wind's Fury wastes less deck-slots.


Yeah. I'd build a deck based around Second Sunrise + Reverberate + Archaeomancer + Mirror Entity + Kykar, Wind's Fury for infinite changeling ETBs with a Sunforger/Puresteel Paladin equipment subtheme. This is the kind of combo you want to base your deck on not Altar of the Brood, Outpost Siege, Impact Tremors and Sai of the Shinobi. You want cards that have an impact outside of the infinite combo and then also happen to result in an infinite combo. Then, you get a lot of redundant effects(Archaeomancer/Living Lightning/Mnemonic Wall/Scholar of the Ages/Shipwreck Dowser) and eventually your deck will stumble into going infinite through some combination.

It'd be a deck based around creature type manipulation but I'm not sure if there'd be enough room to slot in a changeling package outside of Mirror Entity or not. If there was it probably won't be huge.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Yeah, @materpillar the tension will definitely be on minimizing creature count, which is why I didn't brainstorm around changelings. That said, I do really like the thought of Second Sunrise/Faith's Reward to get the most out of changeling sacrifices, and Lathliss, Dragon Queen would then be live (had to discount her w/o changelings).

Hmmm, I'll stew on it more. Thanks for the input!
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I feel like we just live in a never ending spoiler season nowadays :crazy:

Anyhow, Jace, Mirror Mage is cool. I don't know that he's good enough to merit inclusion beyond maybe a few test games, but being able to repeatedly scry 4 before cantripping/looting, or scry 2 then draw one of our many cheap spells is neat, and it's a lot of value from one card. He certainly makes missing lands drops hard.

Having a multitude of flying blockers always makes PWs worth considering for the deck. One of these days I'll smarten up and just get it over with and jam Elspeth, Sun's Champion in there.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Alrighty, I just made my first full pass through the Zendikar Rising previews, and here are my initial thoughts as they concern Kykar, Wind's Fury (even though I haven't gotten around to making the changes I've been discussing over the past month or so!):

First there are the plain old noncreature spells which caught my eye.

Chilling Trap is a cheap instant which cantrips as long as Kykar or Talrand, Sky Summoner are in play, and cantripping is a staple effect for the deck. In commander I don't see the -4/-0 effect being amazing though. Sure, it will occasionally blank a nasty attack with infect, double strike, or a combat damage trigger, or it will enable a block that otherwise would suck, but I'd rather just roll with stuff that makes the cantrip itself better, like the scry on Opt.

Concerted Defense will sometimes be a better Spell Pierce for the deck since the commander and a couple other cards are wizards, but I'm happy just sticking with counters that are bonkers a la Fierce Guardianship or sunforger friendly a la Counterflux.

Confounding Conundrum is spicy. It's a cheapish cantrip that triggers Kykar and some other mentors and really puts a damper on the green decks at the table. I like the effect enough that I think I would often play it on turn two over a rock just to keep the land ramp decks at bay. This one seems likely to get a test run!

I already shared some thoughts about Jace, Mirror Mage in my last post. Seems good for digging to a combo piece, draw engine, or token pump, and the deck spits out protection for Jace and the mirror. I like it.

Maddening Cacophony could chop opponent's libraries in half to ensure they are smaller than my own before starting a Burning Inquiry/Underworld Breach loop for a mill victory, but Inquiry Breach stumbles into enough other win conditions as it is that this seems unnecessary. That, and having a kicked version of this gets countered seems like a bad time.

Shell Shield is a cheap cast trigger that can save Kykar or a mentor from targeted removal, but there are already better options out there for something like that, such as Apostle's Blessing. If it was indestructible + hexproof we'd be in business.

Cleansing Wildfire is a sorcery unfortunately, yet it destroys the god-tier lands like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx , Cabal Coffers, Emeria, the Sky Ruin, and Gaea's Cradle/Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun while also triggering mentors and cantripping. I certainly don't hate it, but sorcery speed makes me cringe. In a pinch this fixes our mana though, and that's worth something. It also can hook us up with an island to turn on Mystic Sanctuary.

Lithoform Engine looks like a pile of fun. Copy a token creation trigger, especially fun if Anointed Procession is in play, or copy a huge Electrodominance, or copy a Monastery Mentor. Good times all. The problem I have is the cost. Basically I'm asking myself, would I pay Kicker for a second mentor, or Kicker to fork Generous Gift? I think the answer is a clear no since I already have ways to copy/recur these effects for less. I suspect the Engine just isn't good enough unless you get 2 activations, so there's a bunch of setup involved and crossing your fingers and hoping it makes it around the table. If your meta is really casual though, absolutely go for this.

Relic Amulet has lots of words on it that I like in this deck, but conditional damage-based spot removal that can only be repeated once per turn cycle might not get there. Then again, in this deck the card may as well say " tap: remove one target annoying utility creature from the board" and that is by no means awful. It can be cast and activated with just spirit mana, it triggers Kykar and some mentors, and it could be a lightning rod for a Disenchant effect before I cast a Whirlwind of Thought or Jeskai Ascendancy. I wish you didn't have to remove ALL charge counters from it so you could just keep zapping derpy X/2's and piling up counters to remove something big later. Hmm... I dunno. My gut says no though. Am I undervaluing repeatable on board removal here?

Well they went and made Darksteel Ingot good with Skyclave Relic, the madlads. Indestructible fixing for all colors is certainly good, and kicking it is better than 1.5 Explosive Vegetations. I just don't see a kicked version of this not drawing out a counter if one is available. Also, the deck is probably humming along just fine once it hits 6 mana, and I can't turn a fistful of spirits in exchange for the three rocks at instant speed unfortunately. I feel like it wants to be in a Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage deck with ways to bounce it back to hand and/or Unwinding Clock effects rather than here.

Next there's the flippy cards, several of which have my attention.

Jwari Disruption // Jwari Ruins is a pretty crappy counter, but it can potentially ruin someones day if they tap out for an entwined Tooth and Nail or overloaded Cyclonic Rift or whatever. The only reason it tickles my fancy is because I can just count it as a land slot. I don't think it's quite good enough though because of the ETBT, but if slots in the deck are just excruciatingly tight at some point in the future I might include it as a way of keeping land and spell slots both at reasonable levels.

7 mana sorceries aren't really where the deck wants to be headed, but Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn comes with card draw and allows me to count it as a land slot, albeit a bolt land that only taps for one color. The crappy part is the text "equal to the number of cards in your hand plus one", which means you need a grip already to justify playing a 7 mana spell, and even then what are you doing besides just digging for a combo piece or desperate for some interaction? I think I'd rather just invest in a Mystical Tutor for such a situation. I really think that for 7(!) mana the designers could have made this thing draw your hand size plus 3. I get that a card playing double duty as both a land and a spell is dangerously close to broken, but that rider text probably ruins this card for me.

Silundi Vision // Silundi Isle on the other hand puts a big smile on my face. I am likely cutting my land count by one and tossing this in the deck. Instant speed, moderately costed, with a good percentage of hits especially on a 6 card dig. Even if you whiff completely it clears the top 6 pieces of land/chaff off your library so you have a shot at action on your following draws. Of course if you have plenty of action just play it as your land for the turn. Oh yeah, good stuff.

Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge isn't quite as good in my opinion. The ceiling is that, if I've already got a draw engine online then, sure, I can bury a bunch of lands and draw action, but I'd rather just go with Winds of Change in that situation and potentially foil my opponent's plans while I'm at it. The floor is an ETBT mountain or a 3 mana cantrip, and I don't love either of those. So the questions become, does that wash out since I will count the card as a land slot, and how much do I value the middle case scenario of "bury 3, draw 4" at instant speed? I will think about it some more, but being able to use it as a land slot probably just makes it worth a test run.

Sejiri Shelter // Sejiri Glacier is a worse Gods Willing with an ETBT land option stapled on. I like saving Kykar for , but I've got better ways to do it already. I don't think the flexibility is worth it here.

Glasspool Mimic // Glasspool Shore will probably go in SO many of my blue decks, but I don't think it goes here. 3 mana is an aggressively costed clone, especially considering it can be counted as a land slot for the deck. The downsides of only copying your own creatures and the legend rule make it a stinker in this deck though. Best case scenario, it copies a Monastery Mentor or the really weird corner case of copying a Sakashima the Impostor that has copied Kykar then bouncing the original in response. Worst case it's stranded in hand while Kykar and some tokens are on board or it's an ETBT island. Meh.

Lastly there are the creatures that aren't flippy bois. I didn't look at them all, I just searched up any that said "whenever you cast a" or "landfall". I'll look at the rest later.

Windrider Wizard is trying to be Jeskai Ascendancy on legs/wings. It's not bad by any means, but isn't worth taking a slot away from a land or noncreature spell IMO.

Canyon Jerboa is a token pump enabler in conjunction with the Ghostly Flicker/Mystic Sanctuary loops, but it isn't really necessary in order to turn that into a win and doesn't do enough apart from that.

Same deal with Ruin Crab. I'd rather run Hedron Crab to mill myself until I hit Sevinne's Reclamation and Underworld Breach, but I haven't included that since it seems unnecessary. Still, the crab is at least on my radar.

Moraug, Fury of Akoum is spicy since he pumps and enables extra combats. I'm not sure about the rules, but I *think* with Moraug in play you could stack up infinite combats with the Ghostly Flicker/Mystic Sanctuary loop and your army would be +1/+0 bigger each successive combat. He costs 6 mana and seems win-more with the loop though. He could enable a game winning alpha strike(s) without the loop though, but I don't think it's worth the slot since Cathars' Crusade and Jeskai Ascendancy already do it better.

Spitfire Lagac is fun with the land loop combo, but a pile of nothing everywhere else.

I'll go over the set again with a fine tooth comb and see what other folks are doing with the cards. The big stand outs to me are as follows:
Am I missing anything? Or, perhaps phrased more accurately, what am I missing? :crazy:
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Here's a long overdue update:



Chromatic LanternLand Tax - I'll be losing a rock with this exchange, but by far the worst of the ones I run since it costs and thus doesn't help curve into Kykar. The big appeal with Lantern was the excellent fixing it provides -- especially when going off with something like Underworld Breach where every blue and white mana is often needed -- but with this update I am looking to make Mystic Sanctuary as powerful as possible. As such, my fixing needs to come in the form of fetching islands or pulling them to hand. Land Tax can get the two basic islands out of the deck, is as cheap as they come, triggers a bunch of engine cards, and is stellar in the opening hand.

Teferi's Ageless InsightGift of Estates - I really advocated for Insight in this thread and elsewhere. I truly love the card, and I was fortunate that it was never bad for me. However, the reality is that it is either a do nothing for 4 or a win-more card in most situations. That doesn't mean it's not fun though, ha. I'm a little bummed taking it out, but Gift of Estates is cheaper, triggers more engines, is great in the opening hand, puts me up cards, and helps island count for Mystic Sanctuary by fetching Hallowed Fountain, Irrigated Farmland, Prairie Stream, or Raugrin Triome.

Narset of the Ancient WayJace, Mirror Mage - Le Sigh. I wanted Narset to be great. She was never bad for me, but I never did get to ult her. Seeing as that was the entire point of running her, I've decided she's just not going to be consistently worth it. The couple times I was in a position for her to emblem, I had a quicker route to victory. I'm going to give new Jace a whirl because I think he's good kicked or not and this deck is great for protecting walkers. Truth be told, he's likely just a placeholder for Elspeth, Sun's Champion when I finally get a copy.

Knowledge PoolKindred Discovery - The pool is shenanigans, and a deck full of cheapo spells is poised to take advantage of it, but Discovery is beyond bananas with Kykar. I'm sad to take KP out, but 5-6 mana is the top of the curve and it makes sense to swap.

Fight to the DeathProphetic Prism - FttD had its moments in the sun for me for sure, but it is very situational. When it was good, it was great, but it's dead too often. Prism is never dead, triggers engine cards, and is making the list because it combos with Kykar, Mystic Sanctuary, Ghostly Flicker, and Bonus Round as detailed earlier in the thread.

Keep WatchGhostly Flicker - Another tough cut here since KW always performed admirably for me, but alas it is another situational draw spell. I am looking to lean pretty heavily into Mystic Sanctuary as of this update, so Flicker is a shoe in. Worst case scenario it protects Kykar or a mentor from targeted removal. Best case scenario I combine it is part of an infinite storm/mana combo.

ImpulseConfounding Conundrum - I didn't think cutting Impulse would be as hard as it was but geez did I not like taking that card out. It's so solid. Never anything to write home about, but it just smooths everything out. Conundrum cantrips, so it doesn't completely depart from Impulse's function, but exchanging the card selection for a hate piece against ramp decks and fetch heavy decks seemed worth it in my mind.

Skycloud ExpanseMystic Sanctuary - Expanse is a perfectly serviceable signet land, but Sanctuary is viable now that I own some more "get islands NOW" cards. It is driving a lot of the changes in this update by itself. Solid as a value piece to get back a key spell and draw it right away with one of my many cantrips, or storm off with alongside some other combo pieces. There are so many ways to abuse this thing that I'm sure I'll keep molding the deck around it in lots of little ways for some time yet. I'm fond of the toolboxy idea of using Sunforger to tutor up something like a Generous Gift, then playing my Mystic Sanctuary to put it right back on top of the library to draw or forger up again. The deck is now up to 11 cards that either say "island" or can be used to fetch one that does. I hope to bring that number up with time, but I think that's a good start.

Emergence ZoneSilundi Vision // Silundi Isle - EZ was meant as protection for engine pieces by flashing them out right before a big storm turn, but it never proved as useful as I wanted and I don't like going down a mana. Vision lets me go down a land slot without going down a land and soothes the pain of losing Impulse.

Battlefield ForgeFabled Passage - The forge has always been solid, but blue sources that say "island" on them are the name of the game now, and Fabled Passage gets one.

Shivan ReefRiptide Laboratory - Reef has also been great and earned its keep, but as I've played the deck over time I've gotten more protective of Kykar, so holding up 3 mana for instant speed shenanigans on end step if big bird hasn't needed rescuing seems fine by me.

Clifftop Retreat, Sulfur Falls, Glacial FortressMystic Gate, Prairie Stream, Flood Plain - Swapping some slow duals for a shiny new filter land, a dual that says "island", and a way to fetch something that says "island".

As usual, the hardest thing about tuning the deck is knowing what to cut and what goodies on the "maybeboard" need to stay there. There are bunches of cards I'd love to find room for in the deck but just can't. Near the top of the list are Swords to Plowshares, Windfall, Winds of Change, Spark Double, Intangible Virtue, and so on. Felidar Retreat from the new set has my attention as well.

Hopefully soon I'll find the time to update the OP, especially the combo, card discussion, and honorable mentions / maybeboard sections.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

I am getting behind on my card evaluation and never noticed yours so this is a little late. You have a bit more than I do. For the stuff you noted, I agree with most of your summary on the cards you mentioned. The only things I disagree with or would add are:

Confounding Conundrum - I guess this might be more of a meta call, but I am not sure on it. I think having a silver bullet vs ramp is great, but it is unlikely that it will actually help (if they are playing a mass of landfall things, it could be bad for us), and it still requires us to have it in hand early enough to really stem the ramp. Perhaps I am not giving it enough credit, but I don't think the stars will align often enough for it to come down early enough to really set them back in a meaningful way.

Jace, Mirror Mage - I am sort of waffling on this one. 3 mana to draw a card (probably 2) isn't awful. If he doesn't die to those, or we Scry and are able to draw again, I think he can be good. I do think just Scrying can sometimes be underrated and 3 mana is sort of the sweet spot for more "value" stuff like this where it won't necessarily have a huge impact on the game.

But still, I am not sure if he ends up being good enough to earn a permanent spot. He is still slow, and devoting resources to protecting him might not be ideal. Like you though, I think I am willing to give him a shot.

Worth noting, if you run things like Teferi's Ageless Insight, you get 2 cards and he loses 0 counters which is kind of cool.

Deliberate - This might be the only one I didn't see above. I run things like Preordain and Serum Visions and I really like the Instant aspect of this and I think that places it above Serum Visions in most of my lists. Not only does it Scry first, which is helpful, but it still allows me to play a bit more reactively. Yeah, 1 mana to 2 mana is a big jump in the early game, but I like it. Especially since it means a surprise blocker here.

As to your question on Moraug, Fury of Akoum: assuming you have a way to draw the Flicker (I am guessing you do) that works just fine. You do need to make sure your land enters in the postcombat main phases to get the best use of him (he works in the precombat main phase but messes with things since your stuff won't untap for your normal combat). But if you can loop Sanctuary a bunch of times, you can get a bunch of combats and you are correct that the +1/+0 from each trigger persists through the extra combats.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

As for your more recent changes, I am curious as to how Narset into Jace, and Ageless Insight into Gift of Estates works out. I don't do a lot with Gift of Estates, but it certainly does ensure land drops which might make the swap relevant. I do agree Narset has not been as good as it seems she could have been and I think that is a reasonable change to make.

I am still back and forth on Land Tax overall but perhaps this is a deck where it shines reasonably well.

Riptide Laboratory is a card I never really thought of and I probably should pick one up. I have become more conscious of colorless lands though so it could be hard to really fit in. Otherwise, I agree with your other land replacements (at least the new lands anyway). Except maybe Flood Plain just because I don't like tap lands in general.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Confounding Conundrum is a windmill slam. Given the taboo of going after lands, it's one of the few ways that you can try to slap ramp down a peg. At least in my circles, ramp is omnipresent and effective. If going on the YouTube creatorsphere, it seems to be quite prevalent there too. And even if not ramping, it inconveniences fetchlands too, which is a little silly. And even if it whiffs miserably, it draws a card on entry, so it replaces itself for two mana spent. Seems quite darned good to me :P
 
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I agree that conundrum is a silver bullet, but it targets one of the formats biggest boogeymen in turbo ramp.

I missed Deliberate. Seems good. Better than Impulse though? Not as sure about that.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

No, it definitely isn't better than Impulse. That is why I was looking at Serum Visions or maybe Portent as the cards it could replace (if not complement). I do think Impulse is better.

I think with the cards I use, plus the new ones mentioned, the order of preference, from highest to lowest, would be:

Impulse
Silundi Vision // Silundi Isle
Brainstorm
Ponder
Deliberate
Opt
Preordain
Portent
Serum Visions

I like Impulse the most for being able to get lands whereas Silundi can only get Instants or Sorceries. In this deck, that is often fine, and digging 6 shouldn't be ignored, but lands is the main reason I place Impulse above Silundi Vision; there are obviously other card types too that could make a difference (such as Jace or the aforementioned Conundrum).

And yes, I realize I could just play Vision as a land, but in a deck that often wants to cast spells, I would rather cast it to get a land, thus triggering Kykar (hopefully) than just using it as a land drop. I concede that I might have this a little backwards though.

The rest are honestly close enough and I definitely prefer Instants over Sorceries. But, I did keep Ponder above Deliberate and Opt because 1 mana to see all 3 and potentially shuffle is pretty good.

Portent is at the bottom simply because of the delayed draw but it and Serum Visions are pretty close in my eyes. The main issue is, again, early game trying to hit land drops and Portent might not be the greatest if I am looking for a land that turn. But seeing 3 cards and offering a shuffle causes it to barely eke out over Serum Visions.

But, realistically, the 3 in the middle of the pack here can really be shuffled around depending on preferences. I like Opt over Preordain due to being an Instant but Preordain is obviously more powerful in a vacuum. And, as mentioned, I just like Deliberate over both since it is an Instant. I don't think either one is inherently better/worse than the others. Though, in most cases, I would expect Preordain to be higher on people's lists even as a sorcery.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Interesting analysis. I really value silundi opening up a slot in the deck, and I think land tax and gift of estates changes the value of impulse as a land draw, though it still hurt for me to cut it.
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Post by shermanido37 » 3 years ago

How do you guys compare Confounding Conundrum and Overburden? Both effects look really strong to me versus battlecruisers and er-dur-hur decks and heavy ramp, one cantrips but is narrower while the other is wider yet riskier.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I've avoided overburden because it seems to me to be very staxy and punishing toward normal magic play patterns while conundrum just stops the game breaking mega ramp chulane monstrosities. That, and I'm not creatureless like wizardmn, so I'd be hurting myself too.

That, and - in theory - overburden could allow for an etb land to be abused every turn.
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