Kykar, Wind's Fury - Spellslinger Tokens

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Interesting analysis. I really value silundi opening up a slot in the deck, and I think land tax and gift of estates changes the value of impulse as a land draw, though it still hurt for me to cut it.
That is a good point. The summary above was more about things in a vacuum so with Land Tax (something I likely won't run) and Gift of Estates (it is growing on me) the valuation of the cards change. I do think it is important to recognize that Impulse can get us Conundrum, Jace, Ascendancy, Saheeli, Sunforger, and any creatures you might be running (for me, it is just two Gods). Whether or not those are important enough is up to you. I am not even sure where I stand on it, though I do think I would cut other cards before Impulse anyway.

But, yeah, if you eliminate the lands aspect there is a real potential for Vision to skip ahead of Impulse, at least in this deck.
MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
I've avoided overburden because it seems to me to be very staxy and punishing toward normal magic play patterns while conundrum just stops the game breaking mega ramp chulane monstrosities. That, and I'm not creatureless like wizardmn, so I'd be hurting myself too.

That, and - in theory - overburden could allow for an etb land to be abused every turn.
Even being creatureless, I don't like the play patterns either. I think it has a place in a more staxy build, but it really comes down to personal preference and I agree with you here that it just isn't fun, while Conundrum is more about leveling the playing field. Even things like the fetch situation that can arise with Conundrum can be played around pretty easily (they are delayed a turn) rather than really shutting things down.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
I would cut other cards before Impulse anyway.
Don't leave me hanging now. What would you have cut, I'm curious? The PW slot?
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
I would cut other cards before Impulse anyway.
Don't leave me hanging now. What would you have cut, I'm curious? The PW slot?
I was just thinking of my deck where I would cut Serum Visions or Portent first, but you aren't running those. Though, in your list, I do think cutting Opt before Impulse might be the right call, though that could be on the line.

Looking at other cards you have, I think cutting Prophetic Prism is probably what stands out to me most. The mana fixing likely isn't as important anymore with Gift *and* Land Tax, which means it is effectively just a cantrip. And Impulse is a better one.

Though, I see you have it included for combo potential more than anything, so that would be a hard sell. And you just included it :)

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Yeah, it's a combo first and foremost. I am trending more towards a full on combo deck, and I may want to back that off eventually though.

I'll think on removing opt instead of impulse.
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Yeah, it's a combo first and foremost. I am trending more towards a full on combo deck, and I may want to back that off eventually though.

I'll think on removing opt instead of impulse.
Fair enough. I do think digging 2 or 4 times as deep (depending on if you Scry to the top with Opt) is worth it. Granted, being 2 mana vs 1 could be important depending on how tight you are with your mana at different stages of the game.

But yeah, since you aren't running the "worse" cantrips (Serum Visions and Portent) things start to get a little murkier in terms of what is best to cut. I don't think cutting Impulse is awful since you are shooting for something a little different than I am.

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Post by Muffins1001 » 3 years ago

So I have been torn on what to do with my Kykar list and I love the token aspect but when I first tossed it together I put in a few Polymorph effects and loved them as well. Is there a way that the token and Polymorph deck ideas would mesh well together?

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Muffins1001 wrote:
3 years ago
So I have been torn on what to do with my Kykar list and I love the token aspect but when I first tossed it together I put in a few Polymorph effects and loved them as well. Is there a way that the token and Polymorph deck ideas would mesh well together?
It's actually a common cEDH play with kykar to use Divergent Transformations to get Spellseeker (fetching a tutor for Sensei's Divining Top) and Elsha of the Infinite for the win.

If you don't love the combo route, you could always have Polymorph targets that enhance your tokens. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite comes to mind. It would be a very different deck, but a fun one imo.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I got to squeeze in a quick 1v1 to test out the changes to the deck, and by a happy little accident discovered another combo.

Resolve Kindred Discovery naming "insect" with The Locust God and at least one insect in play pre-combat (or a way to draw a card and have an insect ETB). Attack with insect(s) (or draw a card and have an insect ETB). Draw entire deck except for the last card. With the Kindred Discovery draw trigger for the final card on the stack, cast Path to Exile targeting The Locust God in order to avoid decking. (I also cast Silence before attempting this since I had the extra and Fierce Guardianship was already in my graveyard.) With library and hand being one and the same, resolve Goblin Bombardment and start chucking bugs.

Fun little combo that is basically a 3 card core - Locust God, Kindred Discovery, Path to Exile (or Generous Gift if PtE is unavailable for whatever reason. Chaos Warp if you feel lucky, punk) - which is made lethal via combat or Bombardment/Impact Tremors.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I don't love the constant deluge of new cards from WotC near as much as I should probably, but Legends is turning out to be a neat looking set. Some preliminary thoughts:

Court of Cunning and Court of Grace both seem like fine playables for Kykar since they effectively cantrip with potential to draw more than just a replacement card -- especially since we're the go-wide flyer deck -- and the upkeep triggers are just fine whether we are the monarch or not. I think the blue one is better with the lower mana cost and the fuel for the graveyard, but more repeatable token production is never a bad thing either, although one token per turn isn't amazing.

Horizon Stone is really interesting because it gives us a way to get value out of chump blocking or board wiped spirits without requiring a mana sink at that exact instant. 5 mana is a lot though, and we get away with using up spirit mana in these situations pretty good as it is.

Jeska's Will seems really good. I hate that it's a sorcery. Still, a ritual plus impulse draw for a reasonable price is pretty exciting. Red mana isn't much of a bottleneck for the deck though, so the impulse might be the main attraction here, and there are better options for draw since we have access to blue. I guess that makes the question "is mana PLUS 'bad' draw > just mana or just draw?"

Krark, the Thumbless. Bwahahaha. It takes a lot of spice to get me interested in creatures for this deck nowadays, and Krarky boy might do it. Ripping through cheap spells just for cast triggers in the mid to late games means I sometimes won't even mind getting the triggers and having the spell returned to hand at "worst", and of course I'm ecstatic to have just about any instant/sorcery in the deck copied. If Kykar, Krark, and Anointed Procession are ever in play at the same time I think it would be hard to lose. Or Kykar, Krark, and Underworld Breach. Oh geez.

A Scroll Rack reprint was long overdue. Probably still not in my budget for a while, but I can't see myself not making room for it whenever I do get a copy. Speaking of reprints and budgets, Mana Echoes keeps creeping down in price. . .

I'm also happy to see a couple of land reprints to ease the burden on my wallet. Spectator Seating and Training Center seem to be likely pickups for me this set, and I'll keep an eye on Mana Confluence and Command Beacon prices too. Although, land slots are now more competitive in my list with the additions of the Mystic Sanctuary package. Rav bounces or manlands might be on the chopping block, but both cycles play so well with various synergies in the deck that it will be a tough call. I think two ETB untapped dual lands might be better than two of the manlands despite Jeskai Ascendancy nonsense.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Muffins1001 wrote:
3 years ago
So I have been torn on what to do with my Kykar list and I love the token aspect but when I first tossed it together I put in a few Polymorph effects and loved them as well. Is there a way that the token and Polymorph deck ideas would mesh well together?
I already suggested Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite as a solid polymorph target to aid a token strategy, but if you're interested in other options for a jeskai polymorph strategy using Kykar, check out the latest Extra Turns video from the Command Zone. It's been out for a bit, but I just got to watch it finally tonight (I would have watched sooner had I known it featured my main bird). It was a really sweet build, and it certainly got JLK and the other players' attention. TL;DR, the Kykar player makes solid use of spirit tokens as targets for a couple different polymorph variants for an explosive and fun game. Very different playstyle from my list, but still incredibly fun, as per usual with Kykar builds.

I will also say that game highlighted some things that are just generally true with Kykar gameplay, such as...
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- the impossible-to-overstate importance of a solid density of (preferably cheap) card selection, filtering, and draw spells for this kind of deck. The Kykar player ended up stuck with all mana and no action in hand. I don't know how many scry/cantrip/draw effects he ran, but the game we saw didn't show too many. I think just Distant Melody. Ya can't make spirits without plenty of spells. Not necessarily his fault though, it just happens sometimes.

- how Kykar *can* be a trap for builds that rely on the commander too much. Except for Utvara Hellkite, I didn't see any other token production, and once Kykar was removed the second time the game seemed out of reach. Admittedly, this can be tough since you want to avoid mentors that interfere with your polymorphs, so you have to be picky about your token production. Secure the Wastes, Call the Coppercoats, Hordeling Outburst, Migratory Route, Luminarch Ascension, Empty the Warrens, etc are good starting points.

- the power of board wipes against token decks. The Demonic Tutor into Toxic Deluge was back breaking, and recurring the deluge for a second cast was insult to injury.

- storm hosing cards like Spellshock are must-kills. Yikes.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Unfortunately, I had my first Jace, Mirror Mage whiff today.

It was quite a powerful sequence for me in the early game running out Preordain into talisman + Land Tax into Kykar into Sakashima the Impostor into Anointed Procession for turbo spirit production and a full grip. Bonus Round was in my opening hand, and I drew into Narset's Reversal early and Gamble shortly after, just begging me to risk tutoring Turnabout and try for the Bonus → Turnabout → Reversal infinite. My gamble worked thanks in part to the extra lands in hand from Land Tax (in theory) and I randomly discarded a signet instead of a combo piece.

I was set to fire it off the following turn but didn't have an outlet for the infinite storm/mana. I drew Jace, Mirror Mage for turn. I figured, why not? Ripped out the combo, didn't get countered, and with arbitrarily huge spirit army and millions of mana cast a kicked Jace to dig for action. Scry 2, land and something I can't remember that wasn't useful, both bottomed. Draw off the other Jace. . . Saheeli, Sublime Artificer. D'oh.

Any cantrip/draw/filter instant/sorcery would have been live, or any one of: Electrodominance, tremors/bombardment, The Locust God, Underworld Breach, Sunforger, Kindred Discovery, Whirlwind of Thought, Skullclamp, Jeskai Ascendancy, Cathars' Crusade, Haze of Rage, Idyllic Tutor, and probably a couple others I can't think of right now. I think that was enough hits to merit taking the chance on a scry 2, draw 1 for the win.

I had to pass and hope my millions of spirits and servos survived. Kaya's Wrath said nope.

Fun story at least.
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Post by Muffins1001 » 3 years ago

MeowZeDung wrote:
3 years ago
Muffins1001 wrote:
3 years ago
So I have been torn on what to do with my Kykar list and I love the token aspect but when I first tossed it together I put in a few Polymorph effects and loved them as well. Is there a way that the token and Polymorph deck ideas would mesh well together?
I already suggested Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite as a solid polymorph target to aid a token strategy, but if you're interested in other options for a jeskai polymorph strategy using Kykar, check out the latest Extra Turns video from the Command Zone. It's been out for a bit, but I just got to watch it finally tonight (I would have watched sooner had I known it featured my main bird). It was a really sweet build, and it certainly got JLK and the other players' attention. TL;DR, the Kykar player makes solid use of spirit tokens as targets for a couple different polymorph variants for an explosive and fun game. Very different playstyle from my list, but still incredibly fun, as per usual with Kykar builds.

I will also say that game highlighted some things that are just generally true with Kykar gameplay, such as...
SPOILER
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Hide
- the impossible-to-overstate importance of a solid density of (preferably cheap) card selection, filtering, and draw spells for this kind of deck. The Kykar player ended up stuck with all mana and no action in hand. I don't know how many scry/cantrip/draw effects he ran, but the game we saw didn't show too many. I think just Distant Melody. Ya can't make spirits without plenty of spells. Not necessarily his fault though, it just happens sometimes.

- how Kykar *can* be a trap for builds that rely on the commander too much. Except for Utvara Hellkite, I didn't see any other token production, and once Kykar was removed the second time the game seemed out of reach. Admittedly, this can be tough since you want to avoid mentors that interfere with your polymorphs, so you have to be picky about your token production. Secure the Wastes, Call the Coppercoats, Hordeling Outburst, Migratory Route, Luminarch Ascension, Empty the Warrens, etc are good starting points.

- the power of board wipes against token decks. The Demonic Tutor into Toxic Deluge was back breaking, and recurring the deluge for a second cast was insult to injury.

- storm hosing cards like Spellshock are must-kills. Yikes.
I watch that extra turns video as well and the polymorphic deck he was running did lead to a fun game but looked like he focused more on cheating out big huge dudes (as you said he only had one other token maker besides kykar). But it did give a window into other cards that could power up the tokens as well (like the two boros angels).

I have been able to play a few games with my pile of cards I threw together and Elesh nor has been a bomb ever time I flip into it board wipe and a pump on one body. And your dead on the cheap card draw one game I was dead in the water with just kykar a few counters and no way to draw. It forced me to just sit there and do nothing for a few turns till I got action.

It is also been odd trying to find the right balance of token makers vs payoff cards for the poly effects but some games have been won off of them (one game I poly into god of the forge and another token maker and just started to kill the table with damage)

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Muffins1001 wrote:
3 years ago
your dead on the cheap card draw one game I was dead in the water with just kykar a few counters and no way to draw. It forced me to just sit there and do nothing for a few turns till I got action.
Ramp and draw is so integral to a high-functioning commander deck. Fortunately, our favorite Bird Wizard helps with the ramp a great deal, and that leaves us room to focus on good, cheap spells to keep cards flowing. I've found it doesn't even need to be from insane card advantage sources either - looting and cantripping over and over into a payoff spell is where it's at, both in terms of keeping CMC for our draw spells down and maximizing the number of cast triggers for Kykar et al. Good on you for recognizing this early in the life of your Bird Wizard masterpiece.
It is also been odd trying to find the right balance of token makers vs payoff cards for the poly effects but some games have been won off of them (one game I poly into god of the forge and another token maker and just started to kill the table with damage)
I think I mentioned several posts ago that this might be THE puzzle to solve for a Kykar Polymorph deck. I like thinking about this kind of stuff, so here's some thoughts that might help you out:

On the one hand, you could go all in on Kykar as your only token source, but that could lead to disaster once your opponents figure you out (or even if they don't - over reliance on commanders is just generally a bad idea). However, if your are going to lean as heavily as possible on Kykar for tokens, you'll want protection, so I'd look at stuff like Swiftfoot Boots, Lightning Greaves, Riptide Laboratory, Command Beacon, Gods Willing, Brave the Elements, Apostle's Blessing, Lazotep Plating, Release to the Wind, the indestructible spells, counterspells, etc.

On the other hand (and following the route I think that I would favor), you can get some solid token generation in the deck other than Kykar. Obviously noncreature sources since you don't want to poly a token into some derpy little token generator - although a bomb level creature token engine like The Locust God would be just fine.
  • Saheeli, Sublime Artificer is your best friend, and you might consider Metallurgic Summonings and Shark Typhoon just because they are noncreatures.

  • Goblinslide gives a repeatable source that lets you keep slinging your cheap cantrippy stuff while simultaneously making tokens, although I'm not a fan of stuff that gives optional benefits for a tax. They never seem to work out as good as I'd like. Still, it might be better/faster than other repeatable sources like Mobilization, Sacred Mesa, and even Luminarch Ascension since you're looking to morph away the tokens anyhow and you don't need to go THAT wide for most of the morph spells.

  • You could explore several different sub-themes that are compatible with Kykar for your token creation. Artifacts make stuff like Efficient Construction and Mirrodin Besieged viable. Lifegain could make Griffin Aerie and Angelic Accord worth it. Superfriends gives lots of options with the Ajanis, Chandras, and Elspeths that all make tokens and do other fun stuff, and it could be an excuse to run a proliferate sub-theme and jam Assemble the Legion, which is one of my favorite cards ever that just doesn't quite pull its weight without help.

  • Repeatable sources of tokens are nice and all, but I don't think they're entirely necessary here since you don't have to go super wide - just enough to pop a morph or two off. With that in mind, I'd look at cheap token spells with red pips in them since spirit mana can keep the engine rolling. Krenko's Command, Molten Birth, Dragon Fodder, Hordeling Outburst, Empty the Warrens, etc. Then I'd look at the highest quality token spells in the other colors, like Call the Coppercoats, Secure the Wastes, White Sun's Zenith, etc. The good thing here is you aren't super concerned about token quality, or even haste/instant-speed-pseudo-haste since you just want to morph them away anyhow. Sorcery speed 1/1s are fine if you want to keep it cheap with stuff like Forbidden Friendship, Servo Exhibition, Timely Reinforcements, etc.
With all that information at your fingertips now you have to determine the balance. I would definitely keep my number of token creation cards significantly higher than my payoff cards. The huge advantage of stuff like Polymorph, Reality Scramble, Synthetic Destiny, etc., is that they fetch your payoffs and put them into play for you (assuming you've remained creatureless apart from payoffs), even if there is only one or very few in your entire deck. Because of that, I'd probably start with a lowish number of payoffs, say 10 or so, assuming that you'll only need half or so of those to hit the battlefield in a game you win. Ideally even less if they end up being especially back breaking like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Utvara Hellkite, Aurelia, the Warleader, or Purphoros, God of the Forge caliber bombs can be.

So that was a lot of stream of consciousness brainstorming that I did mostly for my own curiousity's sake, but I hope you find it useful
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Warning: longish post incoming.

I was giving my bestest bird buddy some deep thought yesterday and I came to several conclusions:

First, the deck has strayed from my original intention, which was spellslinger gameplay with a token swarm payoff. Monastery Mentor.dec was the idea, but it has become much more combo oriented. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'm evaluating whether it is desirable under my personal circumstances.

I began a little over a year ago with 0 known infinite combos, then added 2, and am now up to 5 by my count:
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1) Kykar + Underworld Breach + Burning Inquiry + storm payoff a la Impact Tremors

2) Bonus Round + Turnabout + Narset's Reversal + storm payoff or burn spell

3) Kykar + Sakashima the Impostor + Anointed Procession + Haze of Rage + attackers or storm payoff

4) Bonus Round + Ghostly Flicker + Prophetic Prism + Mystic Sanctuary w/ 3 other islands

5) The Locust God + Kindred Discovery + Path to Exile/Forsake the Worldly/Generous Gift + any number of things, most obviously the combat step
Those are just the infinite combos. They are pretty "fair" in that they are mostly 4+ cards, mana intensive, or not easily tutored up, but nonetheless infinite and game ending. There are also a much higher number of finite combos or strong synergy plays that still often get there and just win outright without utilizing combat. So, here I sit with an "oops, I win" combo version of a Kykar list.

Second, and I'm embarrassed I didn't catch this sooner, the more combos in the deck there are the less necessary or useful the mentors become. This puts me at a crossroads since Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor, and Talrand, Sky Summoner are three of my all time favorite magic cards, but a combo list benefits greatly from their slots opening up. Same with Saheeli, Sublime Artificer and Murmuring Mystic.

Third, my meta is just not the place for all-in combo. It's not nearly a Spikey enough environment, and I've experienced enough of the combos in the current list that they've lost their shine. So, I think shifting to something much more interactive is the way to go.

The conclusion of the matter is that I'm going to revisit the drawing board, cut most of the combo boogeymen like Burning Inquiry, Brain Freeze, Silence, Prophetic Prism, and Ghostly Flicker, and refocus on good old go wide, pump em up, and turn em sideways. It is kind of exciting since there are lots of cards I've wanted to play but felt couldn't fit because of the combos, and now i get to jam with them!

I'll take the next week or so to decide what adjustments I'm going to make, but I wanted to post this first and unashamedly solicit feedback and ideas. Since I'm backing off combo I definitely want to increase interaction, so stuff like Dovin's Veto, Expansion // Explosion, and Role Reversal are appealing.

Would love to hear your thoughts!
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Post by RxPhantom » 3 years ago

I've just started brewing and tinkering with my own Kykar build. It's a fun deck to pilot. I've got some thoughts for you:

- Why Absorb and not Render Silent?
- If you really are trying to go more creature/combat based, have you considered Ogre Battledriver to give those tokens a good whippin'?

I've also noticed that this deck (well, at least my version of it) has the most color-intensive requirements, as it has many spells with two of the same pip, like Increasing Vengeance, Narset's Reversal, and Grand Abolisher. I've never had such a low basic count on a deck, and I'm running out of lands to put in it that don't CIPT.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

@RxPhantom:

I wanted to be a mostly proactive deck, so I don't run Counterspell, Arcane Denial, Swan Song etc, etc. However, I did want some countermagic to protect from wraths or anything that wrecks me too much. My criteria became 1) hard counter 2) Sunforger fetchable. Hence Counterflux and Render Silent. I also ran Absorb and Dovin's Veto at one point, but Fierce Guardianship was too good to pass up and whichever didn't get replaced was cut to make room for combo pieces. I think Absorb is playable, but the weakest of the batch. With what I'm planning I almost cut Render, but shutting down someone's turn is just too powerful.

Ogre whipboss is indeed making the cut with what I'm brewing, along with some other haste sources for the team.

The deck is indeed very color intensive. It's why all my rocks tap for colored mana (except that one that we all play). Prioritizing blue and white fixing early on is super important. Usually I only need one early red source for big bird or maybe Faithless Looting or Gamble, and after that U and W are the sticking points. Land Tax, Gift of Estates, and my slowly growing collection of fetches all help immensely. I used to run Chromatic Lantern before getting some of that stuff though.

Let me know how your deck keeps playing!
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Ok, here's a big update. As previously mentioned, I want to back way off of a large density of infinite (and finite) combos in the deck and return to a spellslinger/token swarm dominant strategy. I'm still keeping three combos in the deck, but they are incidental and not being actively pursued: if they happen, they happen. Furthermore, two of the combos are finite and all three primarily cash in on the combo via combat, though they don't necessarily require it. I also took this opportunity to tighten up the manabase and draw suite a little bit. Here's where I landed:




My rationale:
  • Strip MineGhost Quarter - A strict upgrade... Uh, I mean, my buddy had a spare Stoneforge Mystic that I have uses for in Canadian Highlander and elsewhere and he wanted the strip for his cube. It was a solid trade that I didn't want to pass up since it helped both me and my bud. Ghost Quarter still does what I need it to do, which is blow up Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Cabal Coffers in my meta.

  • Rav Bouncelands → Checklands - The bouncelands still have some utility in the list with Turnabout or Mystic Sanctuary, but no longer running the turnabout loop with Narset's Reversal and Bonus Round makes these a LOT less appealing. I think it was a mistake on my part to have ever taken out the checklands. Fixed.

  • Needle Spires and Wandering FumaroleIsland and Polluted Delta - The manlands were in the deck for two reasons: Jeskai Ascendancy and Mirrorweave. Weaving an activated manland is a sweet way to hose opponents' attacks/blocks, especially if I am able to float enough mana to activate my own newly minted manlands post-weave. Ascendancy lets me keep casting spells with an activated manland untapping to give more mana and then I get to have a big attacker when I'm done spellslinging. The problem is that the first scenario is hyper situational and doesn't merit the inclusion of three ETB tapped lands, the second scenario means Jeskai Ascendancy is in play and I'm probably doing something stronger with it, and both are very mana intensive. I'm going to compromise a bit and leave what I think is the best manland for the situation in the deck: Celestial Colonnade, which is an additional UW dual and an evasive creature when it's activated. The other two get replaced with the "get islands into play so Mystic Sanctuary is live" gameplan. After doing all of the family's Christmas shopping this year, Papa may have just decided to treat himself and splurge on a Polluted Delta. Maybe. You'll never know for sure.

  • Nimbus MazeAnger - I'm fairly certain I forgot to cut a land when I added Silundi Vision // Silundi Isle to the deck, but I can't remember for sure. . . either way, the mana feels really smooth, especially with the addition of Land Tax, Gift of Estates, Fabled Passage, Flood Plain, and now Polluted Delta. In most games I find I reach a point where I'm just pitching excess lands. Nimbus Maze is great fixing for the two most needed colors, but I want at least 6 basics to get 2 full Land Tax searches, so something non-basic has to go. Nimbus Maze also fails to have the word "Island" printed in the type box. Anger has been on the maybeboard for a while now, and the aforementioned smooth mana and Land Tax/Gift of Estates makes having a mountain in play pretty easy. I have a lot of ways to pitch it: Faithless Looting, Frantic Search, Jeskai Ascendancy, Chemister's Insight, Fact or Fiction, discarding on end step, or in a pinch casting it and killing it myself via Goblin Bombardment, Expansion // Explosion, Hour of Reckoning, Tragic Arrogance, or Electrodominance. Haste is big game in a token swarm deck, so it's not unlikely that I'll use each of these methods at some point or another.

  • Prophetic PrismImpulse - Ditching a one-note combo piece and replacing it with one of the best cantrips available. Cutting Impulse was probably a mistake. Fixed.

  • Jace, Mirror MageFact or Fiction - Jace was cute, but not the droid I'm looking for in the card draw department I think. I'm finally caving on FoF. One of the weaknesses of the deck is spellslinging and churning through cards looking for action, but not quite getting there and finding something like Skullclamp or Whirlwind of Thought to keep the cards flowing. So, I'm adding some more raw card advantage. FoF is also just fun politicking and can put something relevant in the bin.

  • SilenceIn the Web of War - Silence loses so much of it's utility with fewer combos in the deck, so it gets replaced with a hecking good token swarm card. It's awful pricey, but attacking with a pile of 3/1 hasty spirits and other random beefy bois the turn they ETB is worth it.

  • Burning InquiryHeroic Reinforcements - Another mostly one-note combo piece out to make room for a token swarm card. Reinforcements is awesome. 2 tokens, plus the tokens from Kykar and mentor cast triggers, haste for the team, AND a pump effect. So much to love on one card. This slot was going to go to Ogre Battledriver, but then I remembered that Reinforcements existed and I've gotta give the nod to a noncreature over a creature. I don't fault WotC for making it a sorcery since that's the only way it makes sense under normal limited/standard gameplay circumstances, but what I wouldn't give for it to be an instant and thus Sunforger fetchable.

  • OptChemister's Insight - This might be the iffiest of the changes tbh. Taking out a u instant that cantrips doesn't feel great, but I decided that more raw card advantage would be best. I posted a thread in the main Commander forum to get some feedback on Insight as I was weighing it against Hieroglyphic Illumination, and I was reminded of just how absurdly good some options for this slot are. I don't think it would be "wrong" to go with Glimmer of Genius, Distant Melody, Compulsive Research, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Keep Watch, Reconnaissance Mission, Pull from Tomorrow, Blue Sun's Zenith, keeping Opt, or going with some other small cantrip instant like Anticipate or Deliberate. I'm going with Chemister's Insight since I can pay for most of it with spirit mana (always good incase of a board wipe), it's an instant, it's raw card advantage, I can use it twice, and it lets me bin something relevant.

  • Brain FreezeMystic Retrieval - BF combos way too easy with Underworld Breach, but I didn't want to cut breach since it is a bundle of fun and particularly spicy with Faithless Looting and/or Frantic Search without being infinite. Freeze doesn't have a ton of other utility, so out it comes for something I cut once and that is the definition of utility in a spellslinger deck. Retrieval is often just "draw a second and third copy of Path to Exile or your board wipe of choice", and that's fine by me. Welcome back friend.

  • Narset's ReversalExpansion // Explosion - Reversal was mostly in the deck to combo off with Turnabout and Bonus Round, but I'll admit it's one of my favorite blue spells and I'm going to miss it. Stealing someone's T2-3 play, usually a Rampant Growth, Growth Spiral, Kodama's Reach, or Cultivate is lots of fun. Fortunately Expansion still lets me do so while not giving the other player a feel bad or being as hard on my mana. The Explosion half is great as a way to cash in spirits in response to a wrath, or just draw badly needed cards and/or dome someone. I love the flexibility and utility on E/E and I'm glad to have it return to the list.

  • Ghostly FlickerRole Reversal - Flicker was almost exclusively a combo piece and not very interactive and it's getting replaced by a really fun and interactive card in Reversal. I've missed RR. That seems to be a trend with a lot of these "new" inclusions... I shouldn't have cut so many cards I love.

  • Bonus RoundDovin's Veto - BR is a combo piece, and probably one of the best ones that was in the list since it enabled such nonsense. I was fortunate enough to never get hosed by my opponents taking advantage of the global effect, but it is definitely a liability in addition to being a combo machine. Again I'm leaning toward interactive gameplay and putting in Dovin's Veto as a silver bullet against combo decks and highly decorated yeeter of board wipes. Sunforger fetchable. Getcha some.

  • Settle the WreckageSwords to Plowshares - Settle is great when I'm about to get my face stomped in, and it's kind of cute as a ramp spell in disguise, but now that I'm backing off combo every token counts for more. That makes exiling most of my board to dump a pile of basics into play a bit more questionable. It also clashes with Land Tax in that regard. Again, I'm pushing toward interactive play patterns by jamming StP. Again, a card that never should have been cut. Silly Meow.
Whew. That's quite the change. I feel great about it though. I've massively updated the OP to reflect the changes, not just in the list but also in the card discussion section and deck strategy/philosophy sections too. I will definitely be more disciplined about my card inclusion decisions moving forward and try not to stray from spellslinger/swarm again since it was a net loss of fun, at least for me and my playgroup.

I have gotten a game in since the changes, and it was a close win on the back of Cathars' Crusade. I must say, it was fun and less stressful just jamming tokens without thinking about what all my potential combo outs were.

To put a tidy little bow on all of this, here's a list of cards for reference that I think are really close to meriting inclusion and might get shuffled in at some point depending on new set goodies or my mood:

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 3 years ago

For the most part, I agree with your changes. Or, at least, your rationale for them (Strip Mine into Ghost Quarter is obviously a downgrade but understandable given the circumstances :) ).

However, a couple I want to comment on:

Settle the Wreckage - This is a card I have been going back and forth on to be honest. I think with the printing of Winds of Abandon I just don't use Settle in anything anymore. I still think it can be a good card but with things like Selfless Squire (still a favorite of mine), Teferi's Protection, and just normal wraths, it hasn't been needed. I do think it likely works in this deck well, but I don't think it is a bad cut by any means. I do agree that Swords needs to be in this deck no matter how you do it.

Jace, Mirror Mage - I will definitely be watching for comments on this. I love Fact or Fiction (even bought a new Extended Art one even though I don't use it in anything) so I would like to hear your experiences with it. I think it is just in a weird spot to be honest. The effect is powerful, even at that cost, as it is card draw and card selection all in one, but often we want to be doing something earlier, even if it means doing less. I really would like to hear it working. I commented on Jace being a flex slot in my build, just like Narset was who Jace replaced. Though I think Jace has potential, it might be too slow.

Opt - This is probably the one I disagree with the most. I think the power of Opt isn't exactly high, so it certainly isn't an autoinclude, but it does a lot in the deck for little mana investment which can be important. I think 4 mana, draw 2 is just not good enough. And yes, you can do it twice so it certainly has potential in the longer game. But I guess I look at Opt as a way to build your hand early (mostly via getting lands) and also having reach in the long game when you need an answer. Insight does the latter, letting you see the same two cards Opt potentially lets you see, but for 4 times the cost. If you have enough mana, you get to see 2 more of course but 8 mana when digging for an answer is tough. This is one of the reasons I like Impulse and even Fact or Fiction. At least FoF lets you see 5 cards and hopefully you get more than 1.

Again, not necessarily a bad swap, and the justifications are understandable, but I think I like Opt there in most cases.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 years ago
For the most part, I agree with your changes. Or, at least, your rationale for them (Strip Mine into Ghost Quarter is obviously a downgrade but understandable given the circumstances :) ).

However, a couple I want to comment on:

Settle the Wreckage - This is a card I have been going back and forth on to be honest. I think with the printing of Winds of Abandon I just don't use Settle in anything anymore. I still think it can be a good card but with things like Selfless Squire (still a favorite of mine), Teferi's Protection, and just normal wraths, it hasn't been needed. I do think it likely works in this deck well, but I don't think it is a bad cut by any means. I do agree that Swords needs to be in this deck no matter how you do it.
Yeah, Settle was in there to get 'em on some rare occasions, but I found I was using the hidden ramp spell mode on it a lot of times. Now that I'm packing Land Tax and am focusing more on going wide that's not really a viable use of Settle any more, so it became far too narrow.
Jace, Mirror Mage - I will definitely be watching for comments on this. I love Fact or Fiction (even bought a new Extended Art one even though I don't use it in anything) so I would like to hear your experiences with it. I think it is just in a weird spot to be honest. The effect is powerful, even at that cost, as it is card draw and card selection all in one, but often we want to be doing something earlier, even if it means doing less. I really would like to hear it working. I commented on Jace being a flex slot in my build, just like Narset was who Jace replaced. Though I think Jace has potential, it might be too slow.
I was kind of looking at Jace as a way to scry a bunch before using an on board or in hand draw effect, or a way to keep drawing extra cards every turn, but he's just a bit too clunky IMO. If I can afford to kick him I found I could just be doing something more explosive with the mana, and if I can't afford that then the double blue requirement is tough. Then there's the whole problem of my planeswalker killing itself, which can be frustrating. The one time I was in topdeck mode and ripped Jace he failed me spectacularly and I would have rather FoFed, but of course that is results oriented thinking and anecdotal.

I do feel like the 4 mana draw spells are too costly for this deck, but the games I lose are almost always due to anti-token tech, multiple board wipes, or slowly whittling myself down to 0-1 card in hand and running out of gas. I guess I see adding FoF kind of like taking my medicine, being responsible, and not just hoping to spike and draw one of my bonkers draw engines every game.
Opt - This is probably the one I disagree with the most. I think the power of Opt isn't exactly high, so it certainly isn't an autoinclude, but it does a lot in the deck for little mana investment which can be important. I think 4 mana, draw 2 is just not good enough. And yes, you can do it twice so it certainly has potential in the longer game. But I guess I look at Opt as a way to build your hand early (mostly via getting lands) and also having reach in the long game when you need an answer. Insight does the latter, letting you see the same two cards Opt potentially lets you see, but for 4 times the cost. If you have enough mana, you get to see 2 more of course but 8 mana when digging for an answer is tough. This is one of the reasons I like Impulse and even Fact or Fiction. At least FoF lets you see 5 cards and hopefully you get more than 1.

Again, not necessarily a bad swap, and the justifications are understandable, but I think I like Opt there in most cases.
Yeah, I feel this. I have nothing bad to say about Opt. Again, I just feel like I need some "responsible" cards that provide instant speed card advantage so I don't run myself into topdeck mode once every five games or so. FoF is far and away the best option that doesn't have x in the cost since it digs deep, potentially draws 3-4, and helps with GY synergies. However, for a second instant speed CA spell there's just a zillion options. I went with Chemister's Insight over something like Dig Through Time because 1) I'm already digging pretty efficiently with all the cantrips and Jeskai Ascendancy 2) Insight provides the much desired CA twice potentially, even if at a higher cost than I'd like (although if I draw into Skullclamp, Whirlwind of Thought, or Kindred Discovery then the Insight can just rot away in the GY for all I care) 3) I've just included Anger in the deck and I want to avoid it being a dead card in hand as many ways as I reasonably can.

I'm considering it a test run for Chemister's Insight. If it disappoints I will swap Opt right back in or maybe give Dig Through Time a go. I just hate to delve away goodies that I can cast with Underworld Breach later.

They need to print a Thirst for Knowledge/Thirst for Meaning variant for Instants/Sorceries :P EDIT: I am running 11 enchantments and 11 artifacts. . . that's not nearly enough, but I could always live life on the edge and go high risk high reward with one of these two. Ha.
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Post by shermanido37 » 3 years ago

I have never been disappointed with FoF, and I expect you will come to like it as well. I like that it's a card advantage monster that
tests both yours and your opponents' skill, plus it's actually fun for your opponents to interact with.
I can also attest to the power of DTT. Even though you only get 2 cards, the ability to dig seven cards deep and choose any of them has proven nigh unmatched, and I don't think I ever paid more than 4 mana for it. However it's a highly skill intensive card - if it's not working, it's probably because it's not being used correctly.

I think Anger and In the Web of War will be dead cards more often than not. The latter can feel very bad if you want to keep mana up for interaction or to sling spells during an opponent's turn, the former will likely be a 4 mana 2/2 most of the time since discarding him will be rather rare.

What do you think of Akroma's Will? I see it as a much better Boros Charm. I think people are sleeping on the card super bad.

My personal experience with Role Reversal has been less than mediocre. In theory it could have stolen fatties or even Sol Rings, but A. I didn't find a lot of decent theft targets, and B. Even if I did, casting the card had been very difficult because of the cost. How effective is it for you?
Also, how is Electrodominance working out for you? I tried it but it seemed very bad when behind.

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Post by tstorm823 » 3 years ago

I think In the Web of War is one of the best named cards in the game, and you should make a habit of saying the name dramatically every time you cast it.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

I'll keep those thoughts in mind about Anger and Web. They do risk being dead cards, but with the sheer explosiveness of token production in the deck I think global haste will often be a win button. Including pump is gravy. I'll let you know.

I really dig Akroma's Will a lot and am somehow just realizing it is compatible with sunforger... If Anger/Web disappoint it would make for a perfect swap. Of particular note for my meta is that an indestructible, lifelink, pro WUBRG token army blocks Gishath, Sun's Avatar and a dino herd brilliantly. Y'know, even if Anger/Web live up to expectations I'm going to get Akroma's Will and test it.

Role Reversal is uh-mazing and just so fun I can't stand it. Perhaps I've just been lucky with It. It steals commanders first and foremost, but in my meta there's also targets like Regal Behemoth, Zulaport Cutthroat/Blood Artist (if you catch em without a sac outlet on board), Cabal Coffers while an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is in play, Ethereal Absolution, Beastmaster Ascension, etc.

Fortunately, I've only had positive experiences with Electrodominance. Again, I may have just gotten lucky or forgotten times when it was bad. Only requiring red and being instant speed makes it almost always a solid emergency mana dump. Obviously you'd prefer it not be the last card in hand so you can get value out of a free spell, but saccing a pile of spirits and tapping out to get some reach and eliminate a player out of nowhere is good times.
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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Speaking of Role Reversal - I used it tonight to swap a token and Tayam, Luminous Enigma, which it turns out is bananas with my deck. Suddenly I could attack all day with vigi boys then cash in the counters for lands and other good stuff back from the yard.

I don't know why Wizards keeps printing legendary creatures with generic mana cost activations on them. Now I'm adding "Steal a Thrasios, Triton Hero" to my bucket list.
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Post by EBrock » 3 years ago

I've been playing around with the idea of putting Role Reversal in for the longest time. I just feel bad because its such a powerful effect stealing someone's big creature or commander.

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Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

EBrock wrote:
3 years ago
I've been playing around with the idea of putting Role Reversal in for the longest time. I just feel bad because its such a powerful effect stealing someone's big creature or commander.
This is true, and I usually only borrow obnoxious or really powerful commanders like Tayam, Luminous Enigma (combo machine), Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, Gishath, Sun's Avatar, or similar in my meta. Often there's just a huge idiot to steal if the commander snatch is too feel bad.

@shermanido37 is right though - it is mana intense in a deck that often wants to chain together a bunch of cheap spells with single color pips, so it's likely not optimal, but it IS fun. Not quite Mirrorweave levels of fun, but fun nonetheless.

Speaking of which, I had a sick weave tonight: Kykar, Monastery Mentor, and a handful of tokens on board. I swap some spirits for mana, cast Anointed Procession, cast a few cantrips/loots to make many tokens and bin Anger, then weave targeting mentor. Everything is a monk and I spend the rest of my mana to cast some more largely irrelevant noncreature spells and spew out a total of 52 baby monks, most of which got a prowess trigger or two and all of which had haste. GG.
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