Sai - Low Curve Thopter Swarm

[ISBPathfinder]

Have you considered adding in Crashing Drawbridge to give your tokens haste?

Hummm I hadn't really given it much thought to be honest. I think it could be reasonable but I guess my issue is that for it to be good, I need to be spinning up and firing on all cylinders. In some ways its sort of winmore because if I am not chaining a ton of artifacts it probably doesn't do much. Several of my draw outlets also work on me doing damage or on attacking an opponent which doesn't really work well with trying to pre combat hasting out more creatures (from the standpoint that I need to have drawn cards to put more in play).

I think my biggest concern against running it is that for my deck to put a bunch of thopters into play pre combat, I have to have really good card draw up and running. In a lot of cases I might make 3-5 thopters in a turn but for the sake of just doing the damage from that its not really that impressive. There are those turns where I do put like 20 thopters into play and I chain a big portion of my deck but in those turns, this card would still lack haste to give them haste quickly and thus would need to be played beforehand.

I don't think it would be a problem if someone wanted to run it. I just think that without haste itself, its kind of a slow effect for an effect that I don't find a ton of turns that it seems to be relevant for.

[ISBPathfinder]

Ok, its been a while since this whole covid thing started and unfortunately I have not gotten to do much testing. I did manage to play a game or two online but if I recall correctly I got more or less 2v1ed and didn't draw particularly well. With Core Set 2021 I have been a bit intrigued by Teferi, Master of Time whom I feel could give me some level of filter and draw but the challenge is that he sort of competes with the non artifact slots I have so I felt that I sort of had to fight with those positions if I was going to test him. What I like though is that he can defend himself and my token production also should be able to protect him. His ability to filter lands and find cards I want while also potentially threatening to ult me into multiple turns just seems kind of sick.

DECK CHANGES:

• Vedalken Archmage → Teferi, Master of Time so, originally I was thinking about cutting one of the Coastal Piracy effects for Teferi but I realized they have a bit of a better expected immediate return than the Archmage here who would require follow up plays or surviving a turn to really see value. I think the Archmage's potential value generation is higher but he is also fragile and slower immediate returns to say nothing of the disruption that Teferi's phasing option can lend.
• Transmogrifying Wand → Cursed Totem I added a Cursed Totem to another deck and I wanted to test it here as well. The Pithing Needle effects in this list have been great and the option to pick up a third seems great even if it could possibly conflict with my own creatures a little it seems like it should be minimal interference here. Its not quite as versatile as the wand but its also cheaper and doesn't have any sort of maintenance or extra cost associated so this is a nice trimming down on the mana curve of the deck. I only have like two creatures I felt bad about hitting with Totem so I felt like it was a good thing to add here.

Oh....... I still have Ugin in here.... I probably need to cut him

[MeowZeDung]

Sai and Efficient Construction are in the 99 of my Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive token saboteur deck along with Signal Pest. I've had some great success with Sword of the Paruns and Crown of Doom which you might find use for. EDIT: Sharding Sphinx too, but that's pretty high up there on the curve.

[ISBPathfinder]

Sai and Efficient Construction are in the 99 of my Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive token saboteur deck along with Signal Pest. I've had some great success with Sword of the Paruns and Crown of Doom which you might find use for. EDIT: Sharding Sphinx too, but that's pretty high up there on the curve.

I am not opposed to any of those effects so much as that they are too expensive. I can and have actually somewhat regularly goldfished a table of 4-5 people by turns 5-6 with this deck and part of that comes from tearing through my deck at incredible breakneck speeds via ramp and unfair card draw. Currently I am somewhat reliant on Coat of Arms for the real fast games but even just swarming at people with bodies does get me there. I am not opposed to other anthems but with the ones I am currently running you will see there is somewhat of an efficiency to them such as Steel Overseer, Master of Etherium, Throne of the God-Pharaoh, and Coat of Arms. Of these three, Master of Etherium is my least efficient one and he still comes with a HUGE body on him on top of giving me an anthem to all my thopters. I guess Steel Overseer might be less efficient in that he does nothing immediately but ohhhhhhh boy he is a must answer card and he is cheap to cast. Some of my issue has been the efficiency of a lot of the other artifact anthems which has ultimately ended with me cutting them. Sharding Sphinx is a really cool effect but it required me to have bodies, then play a six drop, then to attack and wait for the next turn so ultimately he got cut for feeling sort of winmore and slow.

I am sort of thinking about adding a bunch of Time Warps to the list. I feel bad doing that though because I know how %$#% it feels to sit across from extra turns. The five mana turns are so strong though for an aggro strategy and a number of our Coastal Piracy effects would really do gross things assuming they stuck with some extra turns. I never really expect Coastal Piracy effects to stick but they occasionally do.

EDIT: Ok, I decided I wanted extra turns. I ended up adding 2/3 of the five mana ones just because I couldn't really find another card I could agree to cut offhand.

DECK CHANGES:

• Ugin, the Spirit Dragon → Capture of Jingzhou Ugin costs too much for this list and I also REALLY don't want to kill Sai myself. Extra turns are something that rarely don't go over well and they can help me ramp, draw another card, get access to more mana, and attack again. Really, its like everything I want to be doing with this deck.
• Shimmer Myr → Temporal Manipulation I think that Shimmer Myr is a bit like an extra turn sometimes when it goes well but the issue is it still doesn't give me more mana, draw a card, and give me an extra combat step. It more functions like an extra turn from the standpoint of letting me clump my mana together. Its also not great without some sort of draw online as its a creature that doesn't draw, really represent much of a threat itself.
• Unstable Obelisk → Chain of Vapor I think that Obelisk isn't very good ramp and it isn't very good as an answer. I think I would rather have a better piece of interaction offhand. I haven't been putting much disruption in here in part because its a pain in the ass to keep mana up in this deck but I think for one mana the number of ways I can throw wrenches in things with Chain is good.

[MeowZeDung]

If you think you've got enough ways to ramp, Walk the Aeons could just guarantee the win in mono blue where the buyback might be worth the extra mana.

Edit: If you're willing to go down the 5 cmc turns path, then Sword of the Paruns probably isn't out of your mana budget either since it can be paid for on an installment plan and has a similarly game ending effect. . . Ok, I don't actually believe it's as good as the turns cards, I just really like it with thopters ok?

[ISBPathfinder]

If you think you've got enough ways to ramp, Walk the Aeons could just guarantee the win in mono blue where the buyback might be worth the extra mana.

Edit: If you're willing to go down the 5 cmc turns path, then Sword of the Paruns probably isn't out of your mana budget either since it can be paid for on an installment plan and has a similarly game ending effect. . . Ok, I don't actually believe it's as good as the turns cards, I just really like it with thopters ok?

Sorry about the delayed response.

Walk the Aeons vs 5 mana turns - I could, but I really value being cheap and efficient with this list. The buyback cost is also really rough against a counterspell and counters are already somewhat of my fear when it comes to anything that costs 4+ mana as it makes me very inefficient. I usually value just getting it done as cheaply as possible versus trying to get extra value out of this sort of effect. I will start with the five mana versions and I suppose just kind of consider how it would be different if instead I had drawn Walk. I am a big fan of efficiency though.

Sword of the Paruns - slow playing it is really painful. I would say that once Sai is in play, on average I don't have extra mana to do things in a turn. I am casting artifacts, refilling my hand, and recasting Sai when he dies. The idea of slow playing something that does nothing without a full seven mana investment sounds painful. I think I am a lot more on board for the idea of Crown of Doom to be honest. One of my biggest reservations with Crown is just that its sort of likely that the person I give it to dies or scoops after my attack giving it back to me. If I can half kill someone with it it seems great but the harder I end up hitting someone the more likely that I will need to give it away a second time or defend myself afterwards. I probably will at some point bring in the crown because I think efficiency wise I like it more and I get to pick that first person to truly feel its wrath. I do wish there were a few more reasonable anthem options in colorless though. Heraldic Banner would be so cool if I could choose colorless or if it did colorless and or the chosen color.

[MeowZeDung]

I think extra turns will make Crown of Doom even better though. I mean, if you get two consecutive alpha strikes with it and/or Throne of the God-Pharaoh out, it's probably tough to lose. Contested War Zone could be good for the same reasons.

Have you considered Teferi's Veil to protect your board? It works with tokens.

[ISBPathfinder]

Looking at Zendikar Rising:

• Confounding Conundrum I play this deck fast enough that some off hate card that isn't an artifact isn't going to make my list. If
  Dingus Egg cost a little less I might run it but ultimately I think this card is just not on theme and its not something I worry about in this list.
• Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate Reborn so....... the thing is with this card is that it can be a blue producing land that I can pay a little life to have it in untapped. I think I likely will consider putting it in for a land. I just don't think that a land costing me a little life is really a problem here and I don't really value basic lands here outside of them producing blue and coming in untapped. I think this card is viable enough as is and I just assume I play it as a land until mid to late game. I am not really excited about playing that effect for seven mana but I think the downside of replacing a basic land for it is really minor (three life). If this deck has issues, it tends to be due to someone having answers for my deck or comboing very fast so the loss of life isn't really a big concern and it really doesn't take up meaningful space replacing a basic. I also think that it could be strong alongside some of the other draw I have in the list in that it does better when you have a bigger hand.
• Forsaken Monument wow that seems nice. I was almost considering Obelisk of Urd in here but getting mana and life as well seems like a deal. I will have to get my hands on a copy for testing.
• Lithoform Engine given that this deck is mostly a low to the ground style of deck I think I probably can do better than this card here. There are a few permanents that copying would be fun for but I think its too much mana offhand.
• Skyclave Relic I think this card is mostly a miss for this deck but there are a few things that could be fun with this. Getting 3-4 artifacts out of one card could be fun with sacrificing artifacts or tapping artifacts. I think that the interactions are a bit low though and I think that you would ultimately want to be considering something like Gilded Lotus for this card to be appealing. Its more expensive ramp than I want in this list and while it is very robust I prefer to move fast with this list than safe.
• Spare Supplies - This card might beat Golden Egg out of a spot by a small bit. I don't have a lot of two mana cantrip artifacts in my list right now so its tough to say but I think its probably a small bit better.

I don't have any changes lined up yet but thats my early thoughts on Zendikar Rising for this list.

[SaintRumpterfrabble]

Hi! Did you end up making any swaps for those Zendikar Rising cards?

Having just acquired a Mox Opal, I'm tempted to put this list together; it looks like it would be fun to pilot. I hesitate though as I'm usually the one that takes the longest turns in my playgroup and I worry that trend would continue with this deck (especially with the extra turn cards).

[ISBPathfinder]

Hi! Did you end up making any swaps for those Zendikar Rising cards?

Having just acquired a Mox Opal, I'm tempted to put this list together; it looks like it would be fun to pilot. I hesitate though as I'm usually the one that takes the longest turns in my playgroup and I worry that trend would continue with this deck (especially with the extra turn cards).

Sorry, I didn't know anyone was really following this list so given a combination of not having played much lately and new commanders from commander legends I got a little side tracked.

DECK CHANGE:

• Mystic Remora → Jeweled Lotus mystic is a little hit or miss for me. Different players and different decks it will perform very differently for me. Its true that it can put in a lot of work but I haven't found it paying off much lately. I managed to crack a Jeweled Lotus in one of my two boxes of Commander Legends so I suppose this seems like a good place to test it out.
• Golden Egg → Spare Supplies I think the payoff of Spare Supplies is a little better than Golden Egg. Getting a card on ETB still but the sac effect giving me a draw instead of life / mana fix is probably better for an aggro deck like this.
• Capture of Jingzhou → Forsaken Monument I brought the extra turns in as another wincon option as well as just due to the fact that they don't take up much space. I couldn't bring myself to cut a cheap card for a five drop and I want to see if the monument works here. I also like having less extra turns on average because chaining them is super tilting.
• 1 Snow-Covered Island → Sea Gate Restoration // Sea Gate, Reborn I don't really expect to cast this as a spell much of ever but the loss of taking a lightning bolt for an ETB untapped blue producing land seems like something I am willing to sacrifice even for a small chance. This deck is the aggressor deck at most every table so I will happily take some extra potential draw that takes up only a little bit of my life to have as a backup.

The extra turns aren't really necessary. I included them a little bit as a filler but also because they give you mana, another draw, and another combat. Lots of the anthems were a little hit or miss for me so I went with some extra turns but I likewise tend to try to avoid them when I can. If you are missing anything my suggestion would be to use cheap artifact ramp as well as cheap artifacts that cantrip to fill. There are a lot of 2 mana artifacts that ETB draw a card that I don't run that can easily be budget added as needed.

[Gamazson]

I have a Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain deck that works pretty well, but it has been failing to ignite passion. I have decided to give Sai, Master Thopterist another try.

I am wondering if you have thought about Strixhaven Stadium in the deck. I think it might be a useful tool.

My scenario I picture is: Two opponents are a threat. Opponent A is the highest risk but thier life total is out of reach. You do have more than enough attack power to lethal Opponent B. With Strixhaven Stadium on the field, you send lethal damage towards Opponent B and attack Opponent A with one creature. Then you stack your damage triggers so that one trigger from the creature that attacked Opponent A see's 10 counters on Strixhaven Stadium. You have now defeated 2 opponents in one attack step.

[Gamazson]

Hey sorry for the double post but I just imported your list into Archidekt so that I could fiddle with it. You are short a card.

[ISBPathfinder]

I have a Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain deck that works pretty well, but it has been failing to ignite passion. I have decided to give Sai, Master Thopterist another try.

I am wondering if you have thought about Strixhaven Stadium in the deck. I think it might be a useful tool.

My scenario I picture is: Two opponents are a threat. Opponent A is the highest risk but thier life total is out of reach. You do have more than enough attack power to lethal Opponent B. With Strixhaven Stadium on the field, you send lethal damage towards Opponent B and attack Opponent A with one creature. Then you stack your damage triggers so that one trigger from the creature that attacked Opponent A see's 10 counters on Strixhaven Stadium. You have now defeated 2 opponents in one attack step.

Glad to hear. I look forward to any insight you can share in your experience with the deck. I don't play it as often anymore as it tends to be one of my more competitive decks which often tends to be a bit much for what I would consider my average game.

Strixhaven Stadium it seems fine to give a shot to. In general I am not that fond of three mana mana stones that only give one mana back but obviously its inclusion is going to be more of a hybrid reasoning in a deck like this. I think that this deck can get to the point of killing players with its condition but I also think that in general it may take more than one turn to achieve. Still if we can force opponents to use a removal spell on a three mana artifact thats probably fine as we have some other spicy things higher up the chain that tend to draw plenty of attention too. I honestly wouldn't be that optimistic about killing anyone with the stadium but I am sure it will happen given enough games of play with it. The option to attack and connect to someone with 9+ creatures is generally going to be a situation your probably have well in hand anyways without this card to be honest. I think when approaching this card from a concept of using 2+ turns to trigger it, its just sort of ok. I am sure that it will likely get shot down but again, it will give a thopter and can recover one of its mana cost the turn it enters so I think overall it seems like something I wouldn't object to testing. I honestly didn't even really see the card when strixhaven came out given the commander decks that fell right next to it I really overlooked some cards in strix.

Hey sorry for the double post but I just imported your list into Archidekt so that I could fiddle with it. You are short a card.

Ohhh so I am. I guess you found a spot for the stadium. I will have to check my paper list to see if I can figure out what it is or how I ended up with a card missing.

[Gamazson]

Here is what I am currently thinking:

Decklist

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Decklist

DecklistCMCManaPricesChartsDraw 7

Commander

1 Sai, Master Thopterist

Artifact

1 Aether Spellbomb

1 Arcum's Astrolabe

1 Ashnod's Altar

1 Brainstone

1 Chromatic Sphere

1 Chromatic Star

1 Coat of Arms

1 Codex Shredder

1 Conjurer's Bauble

1 Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale

1 Engineered Explosives

1 Expedition Map

1 Forsaken Monument

1 Golden Egg

1 Ichor Wellspring

1 Idol of Oblivion

1 Krark-Clan Ironworks

1 Mystic Forge

1 Pithing Needle

1 Retrofitter Foundry

1 Skullclamp

1 Sorcerous Spyglass

1 Soul-Guide Lantern

1 Spare Supplies

1 Throne of the God-Pharaoh

Artifact Creature

1 Dross Scorpion

1 Etherium Sculptor

1 Foundry Inspector

1 Master of Etherium

1 Merchant's Dockhand

1 Sharding Sphinx

1 Signal Pest

1 Spellskite

1 Steel Overseer

1 Thought Monitor

Creature

1 Chief Engineer

1 Curiosity Crafter

1 Emry, Lurker of the Loch

1 Shimmer Dragon

1 Urza, Lord High Artificer

Enchantments

1 Bident of Thassa

1 Coastal Piracy

1 Reconnaissance Mission

Planeswalker

1 Tezzeret the Seeker

Instant

1 Counterspell

1 Cyclonic Rift

1 Stoic Rebuttal

1 Whir of Invention

Sorcery

1 Flood of Tears

1 Of One Mind

1 Ponder

1 Preordain

1 Reshape

1 Serum Visions

1 Thoughtcast

1 Time Warp

Mana Ramp

1 Arcane Signet

1 Liquimetal Torque

1 Lotus Petal

1 Mana Vault

1 Mox Amber

1 Mox Opal

1 Mox Tantalite

1 Sol Ring

1 Sol Talisman

1 Strixhaven Stadium

1 Thought Vessel

Land

1 Academy Ruins

1 Buried Ruin

1 Darksteel Citadel

1 Guildless Commons

1 Inventors' Fair

1 Myriad Landscape

1 Phyrexia's Core

1 Seat of the Synod

1 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods

21 Snow-Covered Island

1 Tomb of the Spirit Dragon

1 Urza's Saga

Approximate Total Cost:

I am going to test out the suspend artifacts. I feel like I'll have a tendency to wait to cast my ramp until after Sai hits the board. I think I can lead to a more explosive 4th turn, though the trade off is telegraphing my actions. Sol Talisman is imperfect, but it will at least give me a producing artifact that I can tutor for since Mana Crypt is outside my reach for this build. I am strongly resisting my inner Timmy by not adding Prototype Portal, Salvaging Station & Artificer's Intuition.

Clock of Omens has been swapped out for Dross Scorpion. In theory I have less control of scorpion's ability, but in practice, I think Ashnod's Altar, Krark-Clan Ironworks and Sai's second ability will be sufficient. At the very least, I can recover mana if I loose Thopter's in a combat step.

Curiosity Crafter is a budget swap for Kindred Discovery.

Lastly I am running Sharding Sphinx & Retrofitter Foundry. It's not that I disagree with your earlier opinions. I just happen own these cards and really want to take them out for a spin.

[ISBPathfinder]

@Gamazson looks good. I would say that I am still very leery of Sol Talisman though. I think that if you find it early it will be sweet but that delay in getting your card really sucks the later you draw it. Ramp already tends to be sort of frontloaded value which gets worse the later you draw it but waiting turns for it to get off of suspend seems really bad to me.

I just mention it from the standpoint that its probably not going to be cheap (well its not expensive but its going to be more than its worth on launch) when it comes out and my expected results of the card is that I think I would personally rather a 2 mana mana stone that just taps for one mana.

That new affinity creature is going to be sweet. I need to get around to updating all of my lists lol.