Kenrith - Draw Go Control

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

*Notice* I plan to play this as a draw-go control deck that wins via combat not combo wins. If there is a combo I overlooked it was not intentionally added.

I guess I should break down a few things I was doing when I was creating this deck. In general I hate playing 5c decks because the landbase is an absolute beast. I generally dislike not being optimal with my landbases but I also REALLY hate making like $10K manabases even though I can field them I start to get a little uneasy about the amount of money I have in my bag at that point in time. There are a lot of directions you can go with Kenrith but I started with ramp, untap, and rezing as my focuses.
  • Basics - I started out with an idea of running like all basics just to have a cheap deck. I gave in and added a few dual lands but I plan to avoid fetches and ABU duels.
  • Bant - I realized as I was building that a lot of what I was building was a UG deck given the counter magic / control creatures and a bit of white splashed in given Kenrith's actual casting cost not to mention a lot of the fun instants end up being white or blue. In the end I decided to minimize my splash for black / red so while you will see a few I mostly wanted access to those colors for activating Kenrith rather than deckbuilding. This makes my landbase simpler and my demands aren't as bad as a whole.
  • Ramp / Untap - A big focus for me was ramping lands and untapping lands. The ramp element helps me fix my colors which I KNOW will give me trouble given how I am using heavy basics. I am hoping I have enough ramp fix in here but if it gives me trouble I might have to resort to more effects like Rampant Growth that fix and ramp sooner. In a lot of cases getting access to a single black or red mana in a turn rotation should probably cover me though. Getting more mana gives me more to dump into my commander.
  • Sac Outlets - I want to have ways to sacrifice my creatures for Kenrith to reload them to play. Ban't doesn't actually have a lot of good ways to do this generally speaking being a handful of enchantments (like 3 come to mind) and a few altars. In the end though I felt like a lot of the artifact / enchantment options were overkill and easier to remove given its unlikely I plan to use them more than once a turn. I 100% do not know if I will need more or not. If people are heavily after my lands and keep me off them then yes, I will need to go deeper on them.
I guess that is most of the quirks about my list. My plan for this deck is generally to turn sideways and beat in for the win. Kenrith being able to pump creatures and or give trample is sort of my slow plan to win. I wanted this to be a control draw go through and through. The plan is primarily to stop others from killing me while being an absolute pain in the ass. Grind them down and see who is still with me so to say.

Kenrith, the Returned King

COMMANDER (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

Last edited by ISBPathfinder 4 years ago, edited 10 times in total.
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Post by Ulka » 4 years ago

Thoughts on my favorite package of all time Wild Research? I know you are trying to keep it as a Bant deck but to be able to try to tutor spell crumple up for the control lock.

Keranos, god of storm is also a fun card in this style of deck in my opinion.
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Post by Tryno » 4 years ago

Have you considered the following?

Sanguine Bond
Tainted Remedy
Demonic Tutor

I only think the last two are worth considering because Sanguine is a little bit more black mana intensive but I think the other two help with redundancy and are a win condition.

Edit
Skyshroud Claim: Also, have you considered this?

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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

This deck is fairly unique and therefore it isn't easy to make suggestions. I think, emphasis on think, Teferi, Time Raveler would be quite useful here. Teferi can be quite disruptive on its own, you have a good amount of sorcery to flash in, and a fair amount of cards you can bounce and reuse. In my mental goldfishing, flashing in some ramp so it can be untapped with Muse + etc seems fun.

This is crazy I know but you could even cut Survival of the Fittest. This would make your deck more "75%" and it isn't like Survival is doing anything insane is this build anyway. If you cut it, you can also run a few more powerful creatures if you like. Karmic Guide or Lark are not so oppressive and boring if you exclude one of them and the best tutor.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

Ulka wrote:
4 years ago
Thoughts on my favorite package of all time Wild Research? I know you are trying to keep it as a Bant deck but to be able to try to tutor spell crumple up for the control lock.

Keranos, god of storm is also a fun card in this style of deck in my opinion.
Wild Research - I don't think its wrong to include but its still like a 5 mana investment to get started on what ultimately is sort of a Gamble effect. It does look sort of fun but I have a hard time given the mana to spin it up as well as the still very random outcome of the card. It would be fun over time but in a lot of cases I have a decent bit of redundancy which makes me question how much I would use it. In the end, I think I would probably prefer to just hit the cards I want with some certainty and for less mana. I could even probably run Wargate if I wanted assuming I was more focused on the enchantment part of it. I just think it competes with a lot of things and while its sort of fun and chaotic, I don't know that is really something I would include it for.

Keranos, God of Storms I think he is fine. I think that most gods could be fine in here really. I did give some consideration to Xenegos given how the commander here can buff himself up and give trample but in the end I didn't feel it was something really in line with what I needed. Back on topic of Keranos though, I think he is fine and anyone who wants him I think he is fine, I just think his value is also incredibly slow and he feels a little clunky to me. He is sticky though and if you curve him I find him to be quite good. My issue is more with how if you draw him on like turn 10 it feels like a 5 mana do nothing card. I don't think its wrong to include him but I also am not really amazed by him. I have options to draw cards with my commander and his removal isn't actually that impressive.
Tryno wrote:
4 years ago
Have you considered the following?

Sanguine Bond
Tainted Remedy
Demonic Tutor

I only think the last two are worth considering because Sanguine is a little bit more black mana intensive but I think the other two help with redundancy and are a win condition.

Edit
Skyshroud Claim: Also, have you considered this?
Sanguine Bond / Tainted Remedy both are cool effects. My issue though is that they don't contribute to any board control. They do help pressure people down but I think the focus for this commander is staying hard to attack and staying in the game rather than focusing on closing potential. Essentially what I am saying is that these cards would be cool if you played them late in the game with a bunch of mana up but the commander already kind of has that inevitability on his own. Assuming you make it to late in the game he can pass out a bunch of counters and threaten players that way. Its true that these effects are more efficient in a lot of cases but the later the game goes the stronger this commander probably is so it pushes me to think that focusing on ramping mana and keeping the deck from dying is how you ultimately win rather than trying to push to kill people sooner.

Demonic Tutor - I am just being stubborn. I should have it in here but I am doing my best to keep it to mostly being a bant list. Perhaps after some testing I might circle back and reassess.

Skyshroud Claim - Oversight in my searching given I was looking for cards that searched for lands rather than specific types of lands. It does have the unfortunate side effect of wanting fetchable duels in order to fix but I think its still probably ok given I did plan to run shocks for bant at least.
xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
This deck is fairly unique and therefore it isn't easy to make suggestions. I think, emphasis on think, Teferi, Time Raveler would be quite useful here. Teferi can be quite disruptive on its own, you have a good amount of sorcery to flash in, and a fair amount of cards you can bounce and reuse. In my mental goldfishing, flashing in some ramp so it can be untapped with Muse + etc seems fun.

This is crazy I know but you could even cut Survival of the Fittest. This would make your deck more "75%" and it isn't like Survival is doing anything insane is this build anyway. If you cut it, you can also run a few more powerful creatures if you like. Karmic Guide or Lark are not so oppressive and boring if you exclude one of them and the best tutor.
I know what you mean. I did kind of go on an odd direction with this one.

Teferi, Time Raveler - My issue is sort of that I view him as a value over time walker which is very hard to defend in this format. I have always felt that planeswalkers who focus on immediately paying for themselves such as Tezzeret the Seeker to be far more reasonable inclusions in your average commander deck because they can pay for themselves the turn you play them. If you play against a lot of combo or control decks I think Teferi can become more reasonable but I still have some issues with any walker in a deck that isn't dedicated to walkers / defending said walkers. The idea of flashing in ramp effects while keeping options up does sound fun but I think its probably like, a LOT easier to bank off of the back of Alchemist's Refuge which has a lot more ways to get into play and doesn't have the challenges of defending.

Survival of the Fittest - I felt like survival was ok here given I don't think I have any combo outs with it. My plan was more or less to use it like a green Entomb that lets me move my creatures around as needed. Turning any creature into Mystic Snake sounds like something I might want. I haven't actually played Survival in any decks I can think of in some time mostly because it hasn't seemed like it fit into a lot of my decks in a while. Letting me dump creatures at instant speed and possibly resurect them to play via my commander sounds like a really good effect in a lot of cases. Do you think its a problem card or not doing enough? I am not currently running Karmic or Lark in here, just planning to use Kenrith to rez stuffs.
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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

When you play Survival of the Fittest all games end up being very similar. This is fine if you and your group don't mind the way it influences games. In your build Survival isn't as broken as it can be, which is nice. There is a cost paid with cards like Survival, it makes your deck get boring faster. It is my opinion that the reduction in replay value outweighs the power gained in the use of the card.

Objectively, you aren't making all that much mana on the interaction of Survival + King Kenrith. It breaks even on one creature and gains mana on another. It is tempo and resource positive, but not a lot of board impact for that much mana.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
When you play Survival of the Fittest all games end up being very similar. This is fine if you and your group don't mind the way it influences games. In your build Survival isn't as broken as it can be, which is nice. There is a cost paid with cards like Survival, it makes your deck get boring faster. It is my opinion that the reduction in replay value outweighs the power gained in the use of the card.

Objectively, you aren't making all that much mana on the interaction of Survival + King Kenrith. It breaks even on one creature and gains mana on another. It is tempo and resource positive, but not a lot of board impact for that much mana.
My usual experience with Survival is that I play it, and then people panic and smash it that turn. I haven't played it in a deck like this before but I will keep an eye on it at least. Most tutors you could say that about and I have played a few tutoring commanders that I have killed off for that exact reason. I haven't found it to be that consistent and with most people smashing it on sight I haven't really seen it cause issues myself. I also haven't run a copy of survival to my knowledge in the last several years though.
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

I got my copy of Kenrith on Wednesday and so I have been working on this a bit. It looks like I should get some more of the cards that I was missing early next week (hopefully in time for games next week). I had a few more thoughts as I was building the list so here were some of my thoughts.

DECK CHANGES:
  • Survival of the FittestRemorseful Cleric I decided I didn't really mind if I had a few less tutors in the list. I kind of like drawing things up and I am not actually comboing off so while its nice to stack my graveyard I also want to make room for more things. I think a big way to lose with a deck like this is letting someone run away with their graveyard. The nice thing about the cleric is that I can rez it with my commander, it flies, and its very cheap to cast.
  • Angelic AccordUnwind in the end, I wanted to get away from some of the enchantments. Accord is still cool and its very similar to Resplendent Angel but the fact that I get a body out of Resplendent, can tutor it, and recur it just seems like its the better option. I also have a little bit of an issue with this card in that it costs 4 mana and does nothing until I invest another 3 mana with my commander in play. It just felt a little clunky so I thought I would cut back on how much of this effect I have and I felt like keeping my creature versions was better. I REALLY love Negate effects and I plan to have mana up with this deck so it should be a free Negate assuming I have the ability to cast it in the first place. Getting the untap effect on this means I can still respond with another instant if I need to or activate my commander's abilities in full after using this effect.
  • EntombAnguished Unmaking I had been trying to get a little more spot removal into the deck. Entomb is kind of dependant on having my commander in play, access to a few black mana potentially (given its B to cast and I need another 4B to rez), and I also need opponents to not have graveyard hate. I don't want to get too many black spells in the list and so this is bringing in a new black spell in place of another but I really did need to add a bit more spot removal to the list.
  • Rampant GrowthSakura-Tribe Elder I hate using the word strictly better but Tribe Elder is very close to strictly better than rampant. There are a few situations that can disrupt this being true but for the most part, I think its a better effect and its on a creature I can block with / rez if I want.
  • Hunting WildsSkyshroud Claim I think I prefer the 4 mana get any 2 basics that can get non forests but given I am kind of out of those the fact that skyshroud lets them enter untapped is better than Hunting Wilds.
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 4 years ago

No golos? He can get high market or valley for you and rez ramp later. I really like reclamation sage in mine too...I opted to splash more black and red in mine. Mostly utility like chupacabra and extortionist. Didn't think of remorseful cleric though, thanks fur that. Have also enjoyed using archaeomancer to recur spells on demand. A trick I used in another deck is to use pull from eternity and recur teferi's protection this way. Kind of expensive and super irritating, but hey... We're draw go control
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

WolfWhoWanders wrote:
4 years ago
No golos? He can get high market or valley for you and rez ramp later. I really like reclamation sage in mine too...I opted to splash more black and red in mine. Mostly utility like chupacabra and extortionist. Didn't think of remorseful cleric though, thanks fur that. Have also enjoyed using archaeomancer to recur spells on demand. A trick I used in another deck is to use pull from eternity and recur teferi's protection this way. Kind of expensive and super irritating, but hey... We're draw go control
Originally I passed on him because the number of utility lands I have is somewhat low, paying 5 mana for a single utility land isn't that amazing for this deck and the activated ability of Golos isn't really something I want. I will test him out but I am not really sure if he will stick for me. I do run the hydra but he has big stats and reach which I tend to prefer over Golos.



Ok, Its been some time without any updates. I wasn't really sure if I was going to keep this list around but in the end I kind of like that the list seems fairly cheap as a whole to maintain where as normally I axe these 5C decks because they are taking up like $5K in landbase. Through playing the deck more I realized I need to hit my ramp plan WAYYYY harder so with these changes I am not going to one for one everything so much as cut a bunch of stuff and add a bunch of ramp.

CUTS:
  • Qasali Pridemage - Starting out I came from a creature centric plan a bit more and am shifting a bit more to a ramp / response plan. I think Pridemage can still be good but for now I need to shift to more ramp.
  • Wall of Blossoms - These cantrip only creatures ended up being not good enough. The ones that fly / deathtouch and cantrip are fine but the ones on the ground that are just defensive blockers weren't good enough. It just wasn't what I needed to be doing ever really.
  • Wall of Omens - Same as above.
  • Resplendent Angel - Its cute and has synergy with the commander. I just found that in general if my commander was out and functioning I was already fine so this felt a bit winmore given people are already freaking out about my commander I would rather just have more ramp instead.
  • Spike Weaver - Its too slow and it pisses people off too often. When I needed it I just had too small of a window to deploy it I guess. I don't want to put it out early and in the end I think I just favored the instant speed defenses to this repeat use effect.
  • Venser, Shaper Savant - Trying to cull back some of my answers for more ramp. If I ramp harder I will have more mana to sink into the commander to have more resources as a whole.
  • Crested Sunmare - Same issue as Resplendant. If I already have a functioning commander out then this is winmore.
  • River Kelpie - This one might end up coming back but for now, I need more ramp.
  • Agent of Treachery - Its so slow. If I had more ways to loop and flicker it would be better but I found that I wanted my commander + a sac outlet + this and it felt like I was just asking for too much.
  • Kenrith's Transformation - Its cool but I need more ramp.
  • Disallow - Good counter, I felt like I really didn't need stifle effects though and I kept finding more counter magic and less ramp than I was really hoping for.
  • Voidslime - Same as above but even more color intensive.
  • Boundless Realms - This card just costs so much mana and has no board impact. Beyond that it seems easy to run out of basics to fetch given how much ramp I am running and how much setup this needs. I also just kind of hate this effect.
  • Diamond Valley - I am cutting back on the number of creatures in the list and focusing a little more on getting the commander out and in play. The lifegain of this land gets downplayed a bit by the commander having lifegain options and the fact that it can't tap for mana is rough. I also added Golos to my list and I think if I am going for a sac outlet land with a non basic land tutor its not going to be the Valley which is part of why I am cutting it.
  • 1 Snow-Covered Plains - I wanted to shift a little heavier into blue after more testing. I didn't really have issues with how many white sources I had thanks in part due to me having several GW duals in the list. Some of this was also just based on what I wanted to have up on average. Having blue up gives me access to counters and draw both of which I found to be in higher demand.

ADDS:
  • Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath - So, this is mostly another Explore but my commander can rez him so really its kind of spicy to consider rezing him instead of the 4 mana draw because for that one extra mana you get to explore and gain 3 instead of just draw 1. The fact that he kills himself is actually kind of a pro as it reloads him.
  • Golos, Tireless Pilgrim - I am still not really sure given I don't have that many utility lands in here but tutoring a sac outlet and looping him might be amusing.
  • Beanstalk Giant - Really the spell side of this card is the same as Grow from the Ashes not kicked but as a creature he is probably huge and Kenrith can give him haste + trample which sounds great. This seems like a great wincon that feeds right into what I am already doing.
  • Soul-Guide Lantern - I guess more graveyard hate with minimal downside in that its strong grave hate that doesn't hit me and can cycle if I don't need it is all good.
  • Collective Restraint - I fairly often hit all 5 basics so the tax is super high. I considered going beyond just this one into other Propaganda effects but I think for now just the sheer efficiency of this card in 5c is just too much for me to pass up.
  • Demonic Tutor - I passed on this originally because I was running a lot less black. I added so much ramp though that it seems like I should have it too.
  • Growth Spiral - I need more ramp. I originally passed on this one given that its mana intensive being blue and green. Blue has kind of become my second most needed color though and I have adjusted my landbase to have more blue in it than it used to.
  • Grow from the Ashes - I need more ramp.
  • Savor the Moment - Its another Explore. It does cost one more mana but I can also trigger some land untap effects of which I run a few options for.
  • Toxic Deluge - I figured this lets me sweep for not my commander in a lot of cases. The life loss is something I can easily overcome.
  • Krosan Verge - I need more ramp. This one can fetch me duals which is cool. This is boosting my land count as well.
  • Myriad Landscape - I need more ramp. The fact that its on a land is nice as well and it lets me pop it at instant speed. This is boosting my land count as well.
  • Sanctum of Eternity - I felt like perhaps I should have a bit more to get my commander out of theft / transform effects. I cut Diamond Valley for this so this adds a land that taps for mana which is probably a good change given I didn't find myself sacrificing as much as I had originally thought I might be. The deck is definitely a touch commander centric too so having this in my lands section opens me up a bit for some of my tutors to get me out of a pinch as well as add more variety to the deck.
  • 2 Snow-Covered Island I am swapping one plains over to an island and adding one more land here.
Sorry, that list is crazy long. In a nutshell, I added more ramp and a few more lands. I have just been mashing it in sort of a bad config for a while now knowing that I needed more ramp than I had. I came close to disassembling this list but in the end, the resources it was taking up seemed rather small and its a bit of a unique list for me in that I didn't have any other ramp lists together right now.
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Post by Tevesh » 4 years ago

I found Golden Guardian to be a sweet way to Ramp with Kenny Loggins here. He can resurrect the Guardian if it gets milled or whatever; otherwise, you can have the Guardian fight Kenny and turn into a Sol Land that makes coloured mana. It also can then be used to make 4/4 Blockers or even Attackers which is not bad in a pinch. It's another Land which feeds into your Ulvenwald Hydra and Beanstalk Giant wincons.

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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

Tevesh wrote:
4 years ago
I found Golden Guardian to be a sweet way to Ramp with Kenny Loggins here. He can resurrect the Guardian if it gets milled or whatever; otherwise, you can have the Guardian fight Kenny and turn into a Sol Land that makes coloured mana. It also can then be used to make 4/4 Blockers or even Attackers which is not bad in a pinch. It's another Land which feeds into your Ulvenwald Hydra and Beanstalk Giant wincons.
So, its an option. My issue is that its hard to abuse and I mostly mana sink into my commander so other mana sinks tend to be a little less relevant unless for some reason I can't cast or activate my commander. At six mana to cast and flip it and needing Kenrith or some other large creature in play I think I would rather just resort to Burnished Hart at that point which I could rez with my commander if i wanted. If I felt there was more value in having alternate mana dumps I suppose it could be ok but I just don't see much room to abuse it.

I guess Fertilid is sort of similar in nature to Burnished Hart though too. I passed on them mostly because of how slow they are and how much mana it really takes to abuse them. They really wouldn't be great early on and only really come alive after I have already ramped a good bit. I would rather get up to the point where I have mana to burn on Kenrith than have things to abuse with my mana given my commander already sort of covers that for me.
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 4 years ago

ISBPathfinder wrote:
4 years ago
Tevesh wrote:
4 years ago
I found Golden Guardian to be a sweet way to Ramp with Kenny Loggins here. He can resurrect the Guardian if it gets milled or whatever; otherwise, you can have the Guardian fight Kenny and turn into a Sol Land that makes coloured mana. It also can then be used to make 4/4 Blockers or even Attackers which is not bad in a pinch. It's another Land which feeds into your Ulvenwald Hydra and Beanstalk Giant wincons.
So, its an option. My issue is that its hard to abuse and I mostly mana sink into my commander so other mana sinks tend to be a little less relevant unless for some reason I can't cast or activate my commander. At six mana to cast and flip it and needing Kenrith or some other large creature in play I think I would rather just resort to Burnished Hart at that point which I could rez with my commander if i wanted. If I felt there was more value in having alternate mana dumps I suppose it could be ok but I just don't see much room to abuse it.

I guess Fertilid is sort of similar in nature to Burnished Hart though too. I passed on them mostly because of how slow they are and how much mana it really takes to abuse them. They really wouldn't be great early on and only really come alive after I have already ramped a good bit. I would rather get up to the point where I have mana to burn on Kenrith than have things to abuse with my mana given my commander already sort of covers that for me.
I like the idea of fertilid better than Hart simply because it's cheaper to add counters to it... But mine had no real problem ramping into enough lands. The higher power version had no real problems with anything and was super interactive even without tutors to get key creatures into play or the yard... Even powering it down didn't seem to make it much less obnoxious. Even the version of kenrith the squirrel King (super stupid squirrel tribal) didn't seem to power it down enough for my group. The guy is just a house in the command zone... As a result I haven't been doing anything with it even though I love the deck. I have been hitting an lgs a little more lately and might power it back up so I have another viable deck for that spikier crowd. The squirrel tribal version is pretty hilarious and might be worth keeping around too
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 4 years ago

WolfWhoWanders wrote:
4 years ago
I like the idea of fertilid better than Hart simply because it's cheaper to add counters to it... But mine had no real problem ramping into enough lands. The higher power version had no real problems with anything and was super interactive even without tutors to get key creatures into play or the yard... Even powering it down didn't seem to make it much less obnoxious. Even the version of kenrith the squirrel King (super stupid squirrel tribal) didn't seem to power it down enough for my group. The guy is just a house in the command zone... As a result I haven't been doing anything with it even though I love the deck. I have been hitting an lgs a little more lately and might power it back up so I have another viable deck for that spikier crowd. The squirrel tribal version is pretty hilarious and might be worth keeping around too
Yea, ramp commanders with mana sinks are incredibly annoying to deal with. The most viable ways to interact with this deck tends to be killing it super fast, or disabling the commander beyond just killing him.
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Post by WolfWhoWanders » 4 years ago

[mention]ISBPathfinder[/mention]

I have a post here with my shell, not sure how to link it easily but it's called pink heaven that you painted black. There's some interesting ideas in there for irritating your opponents to no end. Nothing like looping perplexing chimera. It's not indicative of the final absurd control shell but it's pretty close...I basically took the gloves off even more. Figured if I'm to be hated might as well be good at it. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts as I didn't end up with too many games under my belt... The salt flowed enough to turn the great lakes into the dead sea. It's a concept I'd like to revisit tho, as a natural control player I have repressed urges that this type of deck scratches many an itch for.
Responds well to spells and abilities

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