New Mizzet midrange

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Hey all. When War of the Spark landed, a buddy of mine opened Niv-Mizzet Reborn, and called it a 'bulk mythic', and that it'd probably never be especially good. Of course, I took that as a challenge; the more I looked at it, the more I saw that I could play something resembling Sphinx of Uthuun in the command zone; a 5 mana 6/6 with wings, and some card draw attached. The only catch, of course, is that there's some deckbuilding restrictions.

To maximize the 'draw', I wanted to have as many guild spells as possible, with a relatively even distribution. Some guilds have better selections than others, but, all have something to contribute.

That said, it is easier to sort by guild than by card type.

Commander
Niv-Mizzet Reborn

Azorius
Dragonlord Ojutai
Mistmeadow Witch
Supreme Verdict
Hindering Light
Turn to Mist

Dimir
Baleful Strix
Evil Twin
Lim-Dul's Vault
Countersquall
Soul Manipulation

Rakdos
Fulminator Mage
Defiler of Souls (How perfect is this card for this deck?!)
Lightning Reaver
Cut // Ribbons
Last One Standing
Rakdos Charm

Gruul
Polis Crusher
Vexing Shusher
Heaven // Earth
Rhythm of the Wild
Hull Breach

Selesnya
Loxodon Hierarch
Dauntless Escort
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Mirari's Wake
Sylvan Reclamation

Orzhov
Vindicate
Utter End
Anguished Unmaking
Despark
Merciless Eviction

Boros
Brion Stoutarm
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Boros Charm
Response // Resurgence
Nahiri the Harbinger

Izzet
Dack's Duplicate
Hypersonic Dragon
Expansion // Explosion
Counterflux
Turn // Burn

Simic
Trygon Predator
Growth Spiral
Spring // Mind
Bring to Light
Voidslime
Nissa, Steward of Elements

Golgari
Reaper of the Wilds
Golgari Charm
Treasured Find
Pernicious Deed
Gaze of Granite

Guildless
Sol Ring
Farseek
Rampant Growth
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Harrow
Circuitous Route
Explosive Vegetation

Lands
10 Shocks
5 Allied Fetches
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
Command Tower
City of Brass
Exotic Orchard
Krosan Verge
Ash Barrens
5x Forest
3x Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain

-----

The deck kind of struggles. It has plenty of wipes/removal, a decent number of counterspells, and the creatures are beefy, but I don't seem to win many games. I cannot seem to realistically secure tempo ever, despite playing a few ramp cards (though most of them are hard to 'draw' with Niv Mizzet). When I do win, it's usually some combination of the Boros cards getting work done; general damage via Boros Charm and an Resurgence, Gisela making my beaters difficult to handle, etc.

I'm not sure what to do about the losses. Initially when I built it, it did okay. I always felt like I had options, that my creatures were basically untouchable (because of the counterspells, charms, and odd creature that protects others), and I could bury my opponent in card advantage. It feels less so, and it's seriously flagging.

Second, - and this may be why it struggles - it's also lacking an enjoyable theme. I like many of the cards individually and in combination (Who doesn't want to table Mirari's Wake, and then aftermath Cut // Ribbons your opponents?), but, the decks in my playgroup make use of themes in a broad way (like Mazirek global edicts) that seem to have more synergy than New Mizzet.

I have been considering switching to a planeswalker theme largely because I want to play Ajani, the Greathearted who seems pretty great in every respect.

Open to questions/comments/suggestions!

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bobthefunny
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Post by bobthefunny » 4 years ago

I have reorganized your decklist a little bit to get an idea of the card use breakdown - and holy removal batman! I get that you can cheat a bit on the card draw because of your Commander, but you may have cut a bit too low, and dear god that removal!

23 removal!? 6 of it is mass removal, and 5 counterspells? This seems... high.

On top of that, your number of threats seems low. Even couting your small creatures as threats, you have 17 'threats' for your opponents. Less than the number of removal you're running. Toss in the spells, like Response // resurgeance (which I didn't even count in the removals), and Expansion // Explosion or Cut // Ribbons as game enders, and you're still at 20 threats, and relying on 2 X spells to get there.

Your recursion game also seems fairly low. Most of it is single target and single use. I know that I tend to be a bit overzealous on recursion, but I like to rebuild a board back up fairly quickly after a wipe. You may want to consider Debtor's Knell or even the non-guilded God-Pharaoh's Gift. I also really like Marshal's anthem, but that may be white intensive for you.

I'd up the big threats, especially if you keep Deed and Gaze of granite. I used to have a 60 card Spiritmonger deck, where the plan was to Deed for 5 to keep smashing face.


Mirrorpool is a great land to add an extra 'threat' into your landbase. Doubling up card draw, an X spell, or a surpise extra big creature is fantastic. But you'd need to have lands that tap for colorless to run it.
Decklist
Approximate Total Cost:




Nahiri the Harbinger seems lackluster as well to me.
Mistmeadow witch is a great card, but she can be very mana intensive, and you don't really have much blink synergy outside of protection.


I wonder if the deck can be tailored to run on three color, by utilizing hybrid mana for the off-guilds, thereby allowing you to shift your manabase more prominently. For example, shift heavier into GWB, and utilize the U and R guilds with hybrid or lower color intensity costs.

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

Final Update

I have made a mostly successful deck within the space I intended to, but, at this point I feel that Niv-Mizzet Reborn may be a fundamentally flawed commander. The list, and then the explanation.

Commander
Niv-Mizzet Reborn

Creatures:
Ojutai, Soul of Winter
Dragonlord Ojutai
Taigam, Ojutai Master
Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Evil Twin
Fulminator Mage
Atarka, World Render
Samut, Voice of Dissent
Dromoka, the Eternal
Faeburrow Elder
Dauntless Escort
Brion Stoutarm
Hypersonic Dragon
Deathrite Shaman
Rienne, Angel of Rebirth

Artifacts:
Sol Ring

Enchantments:
Rhythm of the Wild
Mirari's Wake
Pernicious Deed

Sorceries:
Time Wipe
Last One Standing
Firespout
Hull Breach
Safewright Quest
Merciless Eviction
Primevals' Glorious Rebirth
Bring to Light
Spring // Mind
Treasured Find
Crux of Fate
Urza's Ruinous Blast
Farseek
Rampant Growth
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Circuitous Route
Explosive Vegetation

Instants:
Lim-Dul's Vault
Drown in the Loch
Cut // Ribbons
Terminate
Rakdos Charm
Counterflux
Turn // Burn
Ionize
Growth Spiral
Voidslime
Utter End
Anguished Unmaking
Despark
Boros Charm
Response // Resurgence
Simic Charm
Deathsprout
Golgari Charm
Harrow

Planeswalkers:
Venser, the Sojourner
Ashiok, Dream Render
Nahiri the Harbinger

Lands
10 Shocks
5 Allied Fetches
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
Command Tower
City of Brass
Exotic Orchard
Krosan Verge
Ash Barrens
5x Forest
3x Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain

-----

So, this deck has finally -- after iterations of other sorts of midrange, planeswalkers and other builds -- found its (real) footing as a midrange tribalish dragons with a hint of legendary-matters action going on. The stride I've found is that Niv draws a ton of cards, and that means we should play cards that are as mana-efficient as possible while having some minimum amount of impact. Since the deck is midrange, it's chock full of board wipes (now totaling 7, including Firespout) and modal hate. I don't mind 1-for-1 when my commander is a 6/6 with wings and draws 4-6 cards. Many of our cards are very tempo-oriented, since draw is so easy to come by (and Venser only makes it more ridiculous).

The dragons themselves are good on their own, but a Fate Reforged dragon or two will usually demand answers, which are often circumvented (with Boros Charm, Dauntless Escort, Golgari charm, Simic Charm or our suite of counterspells). The deck has comprehensive answers for almost anything, and is resilient as I can just cast Niv over and over again. Some all-stars have been Bring to Light (which can find Rienne, Urza's Blast, ramp or nearly any answer/threat in the deck), Urza's Ruinous Blast (which feels one-sided, and is generally good fun considering we don't have too many Enchantments, Artifacts, or non-legendary permanents) and the charms, which could be anywhere from 1-for-1 to blowing players out.

Much of the gameplay was fun, too. The spells feel efficient and powerful and no permanent is ever really safe (except lands, unless I have Fulminator Mage). Taigam dovetails nicely with the dragons/general, and allows us to repeatedly leverage removal to even further bury our opponents. Primevals' Glorious Rebirth digs up legendary creatures (including dragons and mass-haste OG Samut), as well as walkers, permitting more hate/options (or possibly unblockable with Venser).

This sounds great! Where did it all go wrong?

The very nature of Niv is that he 'draws' a lot (when the deck is built with relatively even guild distribution), but the information is highly telegraphed. Now that I've played this deck for a month or two, my playgroup will see me draw certain answers with Niv, and then sandbag their plays. Or worse, players with strategies in progress that are threatened by a revealed card will try to force the answer (i.e. an opposing midrange/token deck with a developed board will cease all development and repeatedly attack, forcing me to play a revealed wipe). The logic is that the answer/wipe is inevitable and instead of doing my dirty work for me, they force me to expend the answer in order to secure themselves a future in which they're not buried by my card advantage after having eliminated other players. Similarly, no one tries to leverage a bomb while they know I've drawn an Ionize/Counterflux/Voidslime. Or they sandbag their 6-mana general while they know I have a Despark. And on, and on, and on.

Players who have (hidden) answers often don't have to play them and have more resources to handle my own midrange strategy later in the game. Once I've secured my position on the board, I have to face down two or three iterations of board wipes before I get to untap. The only reason I have run this gauntlet is because, again, other players aren't prompted to play their wipes; I have to police the board because it's known that I have the capability to do so.

"Don't play your tokens until he uses his Firespout" is a good line of reasoning, but it's not clear to me that the other players were explicitly conscious of "I don't have to play my Hour of Revelation because I'm not being attacked, because they know Sinis has a Firespout and want to force him to use it". The hindsight on this makes me feel pretty daft. This hindsight also applies to the games I won as well (which are at least par); the games I won featured players who weren't sandbagging answers so much as they never had them in the first place, and would just be buried under the weight of Niv and all the cards I drew, which was intended to be how this deck functioned in the first place.

Paradoxically, this force-him-to-play-the-wipe-we-know-he-has scenario might be the reason this deck has 7 board wipes in this iteration. During gameplay I'd have to play my wipes for all the reasons above, often with players holding back, and when I'd get home that evening, I'd think "Gosh, I did not have enough board wipes, I'll add some more!" which would only serve to more reliably create the same scenario in the next week's gameplay.

The end result for Niv is that, even though you 'draw' a ton of cards, you end up having to spend them more frequently, more immediately and less efficiently. This was put into sharp relief, as my last games were preceded by some matches where I piloted Rona (who leverages draw-X spells), drew far more than Niv Mizzet draws (multiple games of with Finale of Revelation for 10+), but did not have to police the table nearly as much as other players decided to police each other rather than forcing my answers (which they did not even know I had). It's not so much that this is a bad game to play, as I don't find it fun; games feel like archenemy, but without a real justification of having colossal threats that require the table's combined attention.

I think within this strategic paradigm, Niv is not a very good general and it's possible that he's fundamentally flawed in terms of just giving away too much information. It is possible that midrange/control is not actually the best option for Niv. Playing midrange all but guarantees your opponents will have developed the capability to answer by the time you're ready to really threaten them.

Some more aggressive version might be more viable where you dump your hand of cheap guild effects, and then leverage Niv to reload. This positions you as the aggressor, and forces other players to answer (possibly answering other players as collateral). Or, maybe the key is to only play guild ramp and draw (such as it is), and innocuous self-protective effects, lowering Niv's yield, and keeping your threats/answers hidden so players don't feel the need to force your answers. So, Niv becomes a sort of resource-finder, instead of a font of resources himself.

If there is a deck that Niv effectively lead without providing detrimental intelligence, I do not currently have the time and energy to develop it. Who am I kidding; I'm working on a new version that may avoid these problems.

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gilrad
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Post by gilrad » 4 years ago

I had a similar idea to yours when I built my Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck. A few things that helped me:

borderposts and basic landcycling cards really helped me ensure I kept hitting my land drops. In my particular build I'm getting almost all my card advantage from my commander, and I need to be able to draw mana off of him. It really sucks to get stuck on seven mana and be unable to leverage your card draw by casting multiple spells per round.

I also focused a lot more on instant-speed removal than sorcery-speed stuff. The theory is, making it public knowledge that I have anguished unmaking and the mana to cast it will send threats that could be going my way to other opponents, whereas a decimate demands to be cast at the right time for maximum value, potentially killing opponents' threats that aren't necessarily going your way.

I noticed a similar problem to you with sweepers, perhaps the solution is to just stick with mono-colored sweeper effects and rely on drawing them?

Another thing I did was include every two-colored clone effect, both to get the best stuff on board and also to allow me to dig deeper on Mizzet's trigger without having to pay the commander tax.

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

gilrad wrote:
4 years ago
I had a similar idea to yours when I built my Niv-Mizzet Reborn deck. A few things that helped me:

borderposts and basic landcycling cards really helped me ensure I kept hitting my land drops. In my particular build I'm getting almost all my card advantage from my commander, and I need to be able to draw mana off of him. It really sucks to get stuck on seven mana and be unable to leverage your card draw by casting multiple spells per round.
I tried using Borderposts, along with Mina and Denn, Wildborn to help with the alternative cost, but I didn't care much for them. Artifact ramp felt really vulnerable. It's something I plan on trying again. I got the idea to use Safewright Quest from Niv decks in Modern, and like it because it fetches one of the seven shocklands in the deck for one hybrid mana.

The basic landcyclers were pretty lackluster, and I found that even Sylvan Reclamation wasn't really good enough to run in the end (and it was the best one by a significant margin). I could get behind some of them, but... they weren't really good enough in the long run.

I generally built it so that I could play spells immediately after playing Niv; many of the spells are two mana, even if they're 1-for-1. The idea being that I could bury people in card advantage while actually being able to leverage the mana costs.
I also focused a lot more on instant-speed removal than sorcery-speed stuff. The theory is, making it public knowledge that I have anguished unmaking and the mana to cast it will send threats that could be going my way to other opponents, whereas a decimate demands to be cast at the right time for maximum value, potentially killing opponents' threats that aren't necessarily going your way.
Perhaps. I found that sometimes players would also try to force a single-target answer, but, it's probably not as prevalent as when it happens with a board wipe.
I noticed a similar problem to you with sweepers, perhaps the solution is to just stick with mono-colored sweeper effects and rely on drawing them?
The problem becomes that we never have them when we need them. My list has basically no draw spells in it. Most of the gas comes from casting, re-casting and flickering Niv. Without guild-coloured wraths, we're pretty much relying on Bring to Light.
Another thing I did was include every two-colored clone effect, both to get the best stuff on board and also to allow me to dig deeper on Mizzet's trigger without having to pay the commander tax.
I play Evil Twin because there was a dearth of good Dimir creatures (I would even say Silumgar is barely worth it). I did play Dack's Duplicate and Altered Ego in other iterations, and they played well. Simic has a huge number of good cards that kind of crowd out Altered Ego. If flickering Niv is your jam, Turn to Mist is versatile, and cheap. Venser the Sojourner is also a steady source of cards and/or pseudo-vigilance.

I think my new version (if I keep playing Niv) will probably lean away from guild answers and lean into guild ramp, card draw, and threats. So, borderposts will probably feature. It's not really information if it's card draw (into hidden information) or ramp, which is just more resources.

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gilrad
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Post by gilrad » 4 years ago

RE borderposts and land:

The thing is, when you're relying on the commander to draw your cards, you're going to eventually miss your land drops no matter what you do. Borderposts aren't all that bad in those situations; as long as you have an etb untapped land the posts don't cost anything to get into play. Tap a land for mana, bounce the land, replay the land untapped. This is only "costing you a land drop" if you're hitting your land drops every turn.

Likewise, the basic landcyclers are only there to turn N-M hits into lands. I've found playing them out to be a bit of a trap; there may be some great targets to hit, but in the long run being able to hit my land drops and reach a point where I can cast two spells a turn is way more important. They're now usually only cast when they absolutely need to be cast to win the game or prevent someone from winning, otherwise they're lands.

Now that I look at your land base though, perhaps the pale recluse cycle would be better. A few of them, like the R/B 5/1 haste, can sometimes be relevant too.

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Sinis
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Post by Sinis » 4 years ago

gilrad wrote:
4 years ago
The thing is, when you're relying on the commander to draw your cards, you're going to eventually miss your land drops no matter what you do. Borderposts aren't all that bad in those situations; as long as you have an etb untapped land the posts don't cost anything to get into play. Tap a land for mana, bounce the land, replay the land untapped. This is only "costing you a land drop" if you're hitting your land drops every turn.
You're probably right. I don't think I felt like I had mana issues, but I bet if I played these, it'd have performed better.
Now that I look at your land base though, perhaps the pale recluse cycle would be better. A few of them, like the R/B 5/1 haste, can sometimes be relevant too.
I'm sure that the best-of for any ally-coloured pair could be played, though, I think the spells are more functional than the Alara Reborn creatures. It's too bad Sanctum Plowbeast and Migratory Route are both so awful.

It might be worth it in a new version to play all of the above; borderposts, alara reborn creatures, and c16 basic cyclers. Just hit every land drop/ramp forever.

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