Ghired, Conclave Exile - Triple Dipping Naya Lards

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Post by Legend » 4 years ago

I'll list. Seems like Feldon should be grouped with the double dippers and Avacyn with the decent bodies.
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Wow, people! Hello, people! Welcome! :grin:
KMA_Again wrote:
4 years ago
Precursor Golem.

This guy is the nuts in any deck you can play copy effects like Heat Shimmer, targeting one of his Golem buddies. You should be able to churn out hundreds of golems without an issue in this deck consistently.
Sorry to be a naysayer, but I'm not really buying this guy. Note that regular populating and non-Heat Shimmer/Twinflame copying of the golems does not radiate, so for the purposes of the list he's a 3/3 that makes two more 3/3s on ETB. That's not that good in the grand scheme of things unfortunately. Still an interesting card, probably more worth it in something like Brudiclad where you'll have more copy sorceries at your disposal.
Legend wrote:
4 years ago
I'll list. Seems like Feldon should be grouped with the double dippers and Avacyn with the decent bodies.
The categories and names have been organised with a potential primer write-up in mind, and I'd go into some detail in subsequent sections elaborating on each. The "decent bodies" are things that respond well to tokenisation. Avacyn does not. Aurelia is different, as a token copy of her can lead to infinite combats if the rest of the board cooperates. Good catch on Feldon, I'll try to figure out something to do with him. Also, unsure what you were going for with the "I'll" there :P

Seeing how I'm posting, may as well toss up some more musings and an update. I took my Rhino moaning to anyone who made the mistake of being online, and my regular playtest partner shook me out of it. The Rhinos are the bread and butter of the deck. They're there even while I'm trying to set up the fancier stuff, as it takes a while for all the beefslabs and copy engines and whatnot to align. And then once Archangel of Thune or whatever else clicks, they're there, ready to use their tramply buttocks to deliver whatever cool thing happened to the opposition if need be. Rhinos are awesome :P With that out of the way, I took a while to ponder on some of the previous games I had, and realised the deck stays true to aggro expectations and performs well when it comes roaring out of the gate. Let's try to get things cooking with gas a bit more reliably then!

14.09.2019 Changes
Approximate Total Cost:

This is a Sol Ring deck. Opening the infamous accelerant really lets you slam the foot on the pedal, a turn three Ghired (especially if backed up by something like a turn two Parallel Lives) is no slouch and can start pressuring people quickly. As such, I pondered what accelerants could reliably help me hit 2+ extra mana while being deployable turn two at the latest. Pretty much the only thing that clears those conditions is the aforementioned Joraga Treespeaker, so in she goes over the least reliable ramp elf. Sorry, Elvish Rejuvenator, the fact your friends don't come with a ~13% miss chance isn't working in your favour here. Gisela, Blade of Goldnight may be a legendary seven drop, but she brings a massive combat swing with her. Suddenly everything hits twice as hard and takes half the damage, so she also doubles as a soft protection piece for Ghired in combat. Her benefit is immediate, and stacks with everything else combat-minded the deck gets up to. Plus one day I'll Helm of the Host her, Ghired the resulting token, and chunk everyone at the table with a one-shot lethal angel. And it'll be glorious. This thing's part of the stereotypical Boros Smash suite for a reason, and she'll be good here for accelerating things along. Avenger of Zendikar is the least good of the remaining buff bods, and is the definition of slow. He shone the brightest in Defense of the Heart piles with Kiki, but that ship's sailed. Onward!

Entertaining the thought of swapping Feldon for Selesnya Eulogist, and Cavalier of Dawn for Knight of Autumn. Those are conceptual though, just jotting them down here for future me's sake and possible debate :P
 
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Post by BounceBurnBuff » 4 years ago

Do not swap out the Cavalier! That thing is the solid abusable removal the deck needs, along with the bonus of retrieving a Helm of the Host or other accelerator for the strategy when they get removed. You're unlikely to care about a board of 3/3s when you'll have as many 4/6 vigilance bodies on average, and your mainstay tokens are 4/4 tramplers anyway. I've also found Feldon too useful in grindy games heavy on board wipes to get some recovery going, but even early on it can be a source of chucking out a ramper you blocked with.

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Post by yeti1069 » 4 years ago

I would say the deck definitely needs 1 or 2 ways to destroy land, and at least one grave hate card.

I played a game where I got completely shut out by a Muldrotha deck with a Glacial Chasm.

Also, definitely don't knock the default rhino tokens. They put in some work!

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

BounceBurnBuff wrote:
4 years ago
Do not swap out the Cavalier! That thing is the solid abusable removal the deck needs, along with the bonus of retrieving a Helm of the Host or other accelerator for the strategy when they get removed. You're unlikely to care about a board of 3/3s when you'll have as many 4/6 vigilance bodies on average, and your mainstay tokens are 4/4 tramplers anyway. I've also found Feldon too useful in grindy games heavy on board wipes to get some recovery going, but even early on it can be a source of chucking out a ramper you blocked with.
Fair points all around. I was only musing on the swaps because my meta's quite removal light (Feldon), and we're theoretically supposed to be the aggressors, rendering creature removal less useful (Cavalier). I acknowledge their objective quality though, they've both put in work in some games.
yeti1069 wrote:
4 years ago
I would say the deck definitely needs 1 or 2 ways to destroy land, and at least one grave hate card.

I played a game where I got completely shut out by a Muldrotha deck with a Glacial Chasm.

Also, definitely don't knock the default rhino tokens. They put in some work!
I mean, there's Beast Within and Generous Gift :P I'd probably just jam both of these as lands (Scavenger Grounds, Strip Mine/Ghost Quarter), especially if you've got a fetchless mana base going on. I'm not jamming dedicated land removal as we're not hurt super bad by Maze of Ith et al., and most other scenarios can be cancelled out by the whole "we're supposed to be the aggressor" angle. If I get around to writing up the primer thing, I'll be sure to cover all these angles in card options.
 
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

21.09.2019 Change


Check it out - in preparation for primer time, I settled on a dominant header/banner colour. So since I have one, I may as well properly header the update post ;) I'm starting to actively consider content to include. I take mental notes of various lines I pursue in games (e.g. yesterday's super sad draw where I did nothing, leading me to extremely minimal combat pressure in the hopes that the creatures would live on goodwill and I'd slowly build up a board) and tricks the deck sometimes does (e.g. copying Ghired with Flameshadow Conjuring). Greendawg made me another cool banner, this time a crummy joke explicitly requested by yours truly. Hey, I like it :P

Primer musings out of the way, ELD came, and Ghired got nothing. That's okay, the deck formed modules quite quickly and the most reliable way to be included is to play into one of them. Return of the Wildspeaker is far and away the closest consideration, but it's still not that close. The deck's in the awkward spot where both tall and wide draw are not the best, and responds best to Elemental Bond style effects. Five mana nets us Garruk's Packleader, who responds pretty decently to being copied, and Ohran Frostfang, who's absolute overkill if copied. They're both perfectly fine standalone sans copy too. By contrast, an instant speed Tidings in Rhino mode is not what the deck wants to be doing with five mana.

All my primers are getting a State of the Deck right now, but Ghired doesn't really get to have one. He's fresh out of the formative phase, still probably got some nuts and bolts that need to be tightened up on him. The list sometimes feels fickle due to how fair the magic it plays is, and can get lapped out of nowhere by the stereotypical explosive EDH turn, but that's just something creature beats have to deal with. I'm starting to feel that the most consistent way to get the deck to perform would be to forego the whole "copying nontoken creatures" avenue that the deck is keen on and just go ham on the rhinos. However, that would be boring, and the deck only exhibits a bit of modularity as is. That said, I did come up with something that may be useful.

21.09.2019 Change

Out:

Approximate Total Cost:

Yesterday's fail game saw me have a few utility creatures and not much else. Those utility creatures cost 3 and tend to show up every game. Guess what costs 4? Iroas, also known as the one-card Rhino plan enabler, is one Pod away from a do-nothing board state. And Kiki is lurking on the horizon. And once Kiki comes out to play, you can copy all sorts of nonsense and ship them to the Pod for permanent board boosts before the turn is done. This also works with all other forms of temporary red token making, by the way. Taking out the Vat as it's ultimately the most situational of the cards. Sure, the fact it incidentally hoses the meta's Marchesa is cute, but I think we should be okay.
 
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Post by yeti1069 » 4 years ago

I'd had mixed feelings on Vat as well. Had one game where it did some serious work, copying some powerful ETB guys, but with the deck running so few pieces of removal, and no self-sacrifice theme, it feels like putting all of its power in the hands of my opponents.

That said, it does randomly hose some decks, and can be a must answer card.

I'll look at Pod and see what the sac lines look like there. Curious to see how often you're using it and to what effect.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

The lines are fairly compact, not crazy value chains, seeing how most of the deck's creatures are clumped within the 3-6 CMC range. For example, you can cash in an ETB dork for rhino plan enabling. I'd imagine getting Kiki with it is going to be a major deal in a lot of games. Already had one like that - Ogre Battledriver got copied, sacced to Pod to get Kiki, who then copied the Battledriver in the end step before my turn and it Podded into Kalonian Hydra. All my foes were soon drowned in many hydras with many counters. If anything, it'd be nice to have a designated "stepping stone" 4 CMC dude that would feel okay to fetch with Pod with the explicit purpose of being turned into a Kiki. Somehow nothing comes to mind, the closest is Depression Automaton. However, the thought of running Depression Automaton in a Gx deck just makes me sad for some reason, and as previously established ramp is a dish best served at 1-3 CMC.

Hopefully the removal-lightness isn't too much of a conceptual problem, I used to be quite keen on prophylactically shooting out anything of note my foes did, but over the years I figured it's more enjoyable for the table to go a bit leaner on that stuff and save it for emergencies (hence a lot of the interaction here is instant speed).
 
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

08.10.2019 Changes


Primer brainstorming continuing behind the scenes. I'm drafting up lists of similar commanders, considering angles for the introduction, doing all the prep I never actually did before to make this go smoother once I start writing. I guess I'm stalling for time as I'm considering whether the deck still has some potential to run smoother. While Patron and Feather might have been a month old at the time of primerisation, they were rather one-dimensional engine decks that were quite simple to conceptually design and then jiggle around a bit until they stuck. This thing is inherently weak, and horribly modular. You need a good body to copy. You need a copier. You need a way to ensure it all doesn't just go to hell in combat, as Ghired had to be worded the way he did for some reason.

So yeah. I acknowledge the list is modular, and I should probably keep focusing on trying to get the main engine reliably operational. That means shaving a couple of the more situational cards.

08.10.2019 Changes
Approximate Total Cost:

I shunted the list at Jivanmukta, who previously graciously took a look at Daxos for an outside perspective to assist in his State of the Deck evaluation. Includes were rattled: self-copying creatures to avoid reliance on a copier (Angel of Sanctions, myriad bois), ways to nab copies of opposing forces (Mimic Vat, Hate Mirage). All that was in the list at some point but got shaved for underperforming within meta confines. Aura Shards got dismissed for wanting to avoid general unpleasantness. Subjugator Angel was a card I had no idea even existed, and got immediately windmill slammed. Blade of Selves has been a bit of a recurring topic in the back of my mind for a while, last dismissed because it does nothing in the final 1v1. Jivan's response? "You don't tune for the final 1v1." Also adding Rishkar's Expertise - I've been perfectly happy with chomping a Rhino for two mana and chasing out a follow-up. This does that but arguably better, and brings me up to ten draw spells.

For a while, Marisi was flagged to go in, but he got a vehemently negative reception from a guy in the group. Plus, Ebline (who looked over the change before it went live - I'm outsourcing my deck building, I'm telling you! ;) ) brought me to my senses on that one too. He's ultimately similarly situational. You need to actually connect with him out to start the cascade.

In terms of cuts, Jivan brought up Naya Charm. True, it's a good card, but at some point in a deck's life good stops cutting it. I adamantly refused to let go of Odric, Master Tactician, but instead picked off some more "what if" cards - the conditional ones, that work well every now and then, but aren't always guaranteed to come online. Ya'll managed to talk me out of Feldon once before, but he's still admittedly quite situational. Cutting Mimic Vat and not missing it in the slightest made me realise I'm probably good to go here. Rhys has been the low point of the list for a while now. Costing six to pop the ability is no slouch, and if I'm left alone to do it unimpeded for a few turns to get something decent going on I probably should have been doing more high-impact stuff and actively trying to obliterate the game. Last time I opened him, I figured I'd just leave Ghired in the command zone and see how much I can do with him. It was a glacial process, in spite of getting Kiki online to help near instantly. That sealed his fate.

So yeah, hopefully next time we speak there will be at least some primer in place. I guess it doesn't help I'm suffering the worst insomniac episode of my life, while cohesive writing takes actual effort to get right.
 
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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

Not sure if anyone else asked this, but why are you running Heat Shimmer? It's a good clone spell, but if you populate the tokens they still go away at end of turn because of its wording. Is that okay in your game plan?
EDH:
Krenko, Goblin Stampeder
Nylea, God of Hydra Counters G
Mahadi, Emporium Master rb
Feather, Catrips Redeemed wr
Ghired, The Tokened gwr

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Rumpy is Bad at Giem


"Image"
It's even funnier because my Ghired's sleeves are a similar colour

Thanks for the catch. I somehow never bothered actually reading the card. Hey, it's like Twinflame, right?

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Treating this as a one-off copier, this is a kind of crappier take on what I imputed Heat Shimmer did. Costs one more mana, only does its thing in straight combat so no attack triggers, but it'll do as an emergency patch when viewed in this light. Plus it does theoretically come with the potential to get more done if some combat protection is online, so that's nice too.
Last edited by Rumpy5897 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

Haha, glad I could help. Yeah the difference is that twinflame works because it's an effect of the spell to exile the token that IT created, whereas Heat Shimmer *gives* the token the line of text that exiles it at end of turn. So if you populate a twinflame target, only the one copied by twin flame goes away at end of turn; but with heat shimmer they both do.
Either way, I really like Flamerush as a repeatable application of those spells. If you run protection it can end up doing a lot more work than either of those can, despite the higher mana cost!
EDH:
Krenko, Goblin Stampeder
Nylea, God of Hydra Counters G
Mahadi, Emporium Master rb
Feather, Catrips Redeemed wr
Ghired, The Tokened gwr

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Yep, might actually work out for the best. I guess old me didn't think of it as a four use single shot thing, but rather a five mana engine piece.

Got any favourite copy targets that I'm skimping on? Always for the lookout for those, as long as it's not particularly mean.
 
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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

Well I mean... if I were building mine with a bigger budget, Blightsteel Colossus would absolutely be included. On the less mean side, I like Wurmcoil Engine
EDH:
Krenko, Goblin Stampeder
Nylea, God of Hydra Counters G
Mahadi, Emporium Master rb
Feather, Catrips Redeemed wr
Ghired, The Tokened gwr

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Post by Dragonlover » 4 years ago

Does Genesis Wave do anything for you? I feel like 'instant board, just add mana' should fit given the amount of permanents you're running.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

The deck's not super good at making mana. It's pretty decent at getting into the ~7-8 range, but can stall out in that general area for a while. As such, Blightsteel's hefty 12 is out of the question. That said, I'll need to monitor the situation a little closer - Genesis Wave is a card advantage slam dunk that I somehow forgot about yet again. I run that card in a deck that lives and breathes mana generation. A GenWave for 20 is pocket change. As such, I'm pretty sure I'm just viewing it through that lens and didn't consider it for inclusion here on those grounds. Wurmcoil Engine used to be in here, but suffered a bit due to being a jack of all trades of sorts. Sure, it's a bit of anti-wipe tech, and it is an unpleasant body to have around before everything explodes, but it's also quite small in the grand scheme of things.

By the way, the Subjugator Angel windmill slam is real. I got caught in a slightly stalemate'y game yesterday, left up Eladamri's Call mana, and was gonna tutor the Angel up and kill two people out of nowhere. That's when Morophon saw it fit to Risen Reef + Zendikar's Roil + Yarok and win out of nowhere. Still, this does not invalidate the Angel's power.
 
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Post by Dragonlover » 4 years ago

Yeah, it's not like G Wave for 5 is exactly a terrible play, although I agree it can feel underwhelming when you're used to doing it for 20.

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Post by Skello496 » 4 years ago

That makes sense, I can see how you'd avoid running it in that case.

Have you tried out God-Pharaoh's Gift yet? It's one I run in mine, despite the hefty cmc, but I haven't had the chance to test it out yet because I haven't drawn it.

I went 2-0 with my Ghired deck last night, thanks to a well-timed Settle the Wreckage and an Armada Wurm. It's a fun deck to run.
EDH:
Krenko, Goblin Stampeder
Nylea, God of Hydra Counters G
Mahadi, Emporium Master rb
Feather, Catrips Redeemed wr
Ghired, The Tokened gwr

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Yeah, it's a good time to pilot. I rarely win, but I usually make a heck of a splash and require focusing :P

God-Pharaoh's Gift does not tempt me at all. Not only have I been moving away from that functionality due to relative unreliability (Mimic Vat, Feldon), this bugger costs seven mana. Leave that one to the Trostanis.
 
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Post by yeti1069 » 4 years ago

I would think Selvala's Stampede would be a better include than Genesis Wave most of the time. For 6 mana you're guaranteed to be hitting some gas, even if you have no cards in hand, and likely does a lot more than that.

Genesis Wave for 5 strikes me as being of only moderate value--you could hit 5 lands, which is good, but likely not what you wanted, or you could some of the few CMC 6+ options in the deck, or you could hit some of the non-permanents. Stampede you know you're hitting at least one creature, and if you have a good card in hand, you're getting that + some number of creatures usually.

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Post by yeti1069 » 4 years ago

Just won a game on the backs of Feldon and Eulogist.

Knocked out two opponents and was left facing down a Meren player with a Spike Weaver, with Eulogist in my yard. Had a haste enabler out, top decked Feldon, made a copy of Eulogist, and proceeded to exile each Meren target, making an extra copy of Eulogist, and attack with a couple of threats to force use of the Spike until it died and I could exile it to get rid of the recurring fogs.

Then I got back Aurelia with Feldon to go lethal.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

Yeah, notice I never ragged on Feldon for what he brings to the table. The problem is Ghired takes multiple synergy pieces to do his thing, and having three distinct modules which are necessary to come online makes the inclusion of more situational cards a bit less tempting when trying to get everything running smoothly. Draw's the grease that keeps that sort of thing running. That said, I do admit that in grindier metas and in the face of graveyard decks, both these cards make sense. I'll be sure to include this in the card option descriptions. It's also possible they might venture back into the list in a while - I don't feel the build's hit a level of convergence my other primer lists have. In its defence, pretty much everything else I have started out very one-dimensional in comparison to this list. Daxos plays enchantments, Feather draws fistfuls of cards and sets down synergy pieces for casting spells to draw the cards. Patron started out as Ant Queen dot dec, only branching out into combo later. By contrast, there's a lot more going on here in terms of what needs to come together to make things click.

That said, my best Feldon experience may have also involved Aurelia. I had Feldon out and a guy saw it fit to Fleet Swallower me for whatever reason.

I got a few more games in recently, and paid attention to my mana pool in them. I tended to stick below double digits for a while, which bodes poorly for Genesis Wave. Selvala's Stampede does seem like an interesting idea, I'll have to try it out. It helps I like that cycle a lot ;)
 
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

15.10.2019 Change


Getting some more games in with the existing configuration. The recent swaps have been pretty good - Subjugator Angel is a very common late-game tutor target to close things out, and Flamerush Rider works very well when there's actual combat support to ensure he doesn't just bite the dust immediately. Guess the lack of that in early iterations of Precon Improvement Quest led to him getting cut in the first place. The list is starting to reliably run smooth enough where I feel I can proceed with some more primer work. In preparation, I took a look at some support pieces and evaluated their impact and efficiency.

15.10.2019 Change
Approximate Total Cost:

The deck likes immediate action. Trostani is fine if played ahead of Ghired, but any time after that sequencing her becomes a little awkward. Sure, playing out Odric is fine, as the payoff in a turn's time is going to be massive. Meanwhile, Trostani will eat some mana and make an extra token, requiring a tap to do so. Sure, there's some life gain gravy, but using Odric as the cutoff for support piece performance, she just doesn't make it in. It's a sad day for the list, as a couple months back when I was starting out I was quite psyched about running a deck with Trostani and Feldon on lieutenant duty. And now they're both gone, streamlined out of existence. Jamming Selesnya Eulogist instead. It's objectively correct to run this thing to interact with graveyards, it's cheaper to chase out, and it doesn't take a tap to do its thing. Sometimes it'll rot in hand due to a lack of graveyard action, but that's okay - there have been a few games where Trostani just took up space, uncast, due to better things to do.

I've been considering reintroducing Avenger of Zendikar to help gum up the board for late game relevance. I had Cavalier of Dawn earmarked as a cut, again, as come on, five mana spot removal. But I then realised having an all-purpose answer reachable by four tutor pieces is a bit of a necessary evil. Doubling Season and Dolmen Gate are both tempting as well. Will keep all this in mind if anything sticks out as an underperformer.
 
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Post by Rumpy5897 » 4 years ago

16.10.2019 Change


Okay, we're back to doing daily updates apparently. I thought a bunch about Avenger of Zendikar, and he is still unfortunately super slow. Meanwhile, the curve got a bit bloated, so I don't feel I can support him. Plus, the deck responds best to fat at 6 CMC or less, so that it sequences naturally after Ghired. However, while writing up some more primer stuff, I realised that Doubling Season needs to be in here.

16.10.2019 Change
Approximate Total Cost:

The counter doubling is actually no slouch in here, interacting very favourably with Kalonian Hydra and Archangel of Thune. Sure, the card's a tempo loss if you already have all the pieces for a copy setup waiting for you in hand, but in most cases you can just play this the turn after Ghired for a net loss of one Rhino. That sounds like a sensible sacrifice to make. Taking out Tireless Tracker as the least good card in the 99. I honestly don't remember ever making my way through all the Tracker clues, and that's even without copying him. Two mana a card is no slouch, given how the deck likes to generate and spend mana.

The 5 CMC is a problem, as that's how much Ghired costs. In order to assess how much of a problem it'll be, I did a bunch of goldfishing with the Doubling Season in the opener. There's precedent for Garruk's Packleader doing okay, in spite of the CMC clash. The results matched this fact. It's a bit of a tempo hit if there's a perfect token setup waiting to go in hand, but it kind of pays for itself with the extra copies that you end up making. It's possible future me will angrily cut the pair of these, but for now it seems to work.

As mentioned, the curve got a bit thick around the waist again. This update pushes me up above 3.5 average CMC. I don't like that. That said, there's not a ton of stuff I can cut. I need the haymaker density to have good stuff to copy, and the ramp/support pieces play around that fact. Ah well. Here's to hoping it works out.
 
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Combat Celebrant can be used in a similar fashion as Aurelia, the Warleader for infinite attacks. Not as resilient as the Angel, because not flying and the 4/1 stats so needs to survive the attack (unless you've established two copies to have one hang back always). This is where your "Combat Enhancers" come in handy.

Godo, Bandit Warlord doesn't untap your creatures (except itself), so I think you can use Reconnaissance to get around this if you make a token copy of Godo?
So populate Godo, then use the original Godo trigger to get an additional attack. Use Reconnaissance to untap new Godo and Ghired.
He goes infinite with Helm of the Host as well.
Also can search for your Blade of Selves.


I think Greater Good is almost certainly worth an included due to the Rhino. Being able to get value without needing to sacrifice your actual commander is good and there many "exile at end step/combat" creature token generators, which allows you to get further value off them.

On the subject of "exile at end step/combat", Sundial of the Infinite allows you to keep them around permanently. It's also a potential way to get around combat that might cause you problems, but still allows for populating. For example if it doesn't matter who you attack, Ghired, Conclave Exile would get killed, so ends up stagnating your ability to progress.
Also gives you a little bit of insurance against Cyclonic Rift during your turn or anything that can blow you out at instant speed during combat.

This is a for more of a fun suggestion but Dual Nature is a multiplayer extravaganza, but plays into your strategy particularly well.

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