Ghired, Conclave Exile - Triple Dipping Naya Lards

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Hello and welcome! Yeti's got it right, Flameshadow Conjuring and Twinflame are both very good, and I'd say they round off the podium of the three best red ones after Kiki. The weakest ones in my shell are Splinter Twin and Flamerush Rider. While they're both nominally repeatable, they're a bit more conditional in their returns. Twin lets you get tokens over and over again, but the way I've calibrated my beatstick choice means I lose out on attack/damage-based stuff from Archangel of Thune or Kalonian Hydra. As such, if there's any other copying the Twin goes live on an ETB value creature more often than not. As for Flamerush, he's a beast if there's some proper combat protection so he doesn't just perish. That failing, he's an overcosted Twinflame that skips the attack trigger (Hydra and Boomgoat are sad). It should be noted that even these "weak" options are still pretty solid, as per me running them. Note I didn't rag on Feldon here - I acknowledge my removal-light meta is a bit of an anomaly, and if he works for you then cool :P I notice you haven't mentioned non-red copiers, any reason why? Blade of Selves is fantastic.

As to how much to run, my list's proportions stem from an attempt to streamline its gameplay and assure success of the modular design. Copiers are the glue that turns the various nontokens into stuff Ghired can populate, and you can always find some use for them. Your exact mileage may vary, as Ghired's apparently general enough to lend himself to various different gameplay experiences. I like mine reliably making many Gruul Chunguses, for example :P
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

Tags:

FunnyLittleBirds
Posts: 3
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by FunnyLittleBirds » 3 years ago

Thanks yeti and Rumpy! The commander allows for so many different directions that it's very difficult to streamline a plan. I'm having fun with the deck for sure, though!

FunnyLittleBirds
Posts: 3
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by FunnyLittleBirds » 3 years ago

I also use Blade of Selves. It has been very effective at generating grindy value from EtB effects.

yeti1069
Posts: 1180
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

From the M21 spoilers: Elder Gargaroth: Image

This is a serious beatstick for this deck, I think. Plays both offense and defense, big stats for the mana cost, and a great attack trigger.
Attachments
image.png

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Elder Gargaroth falls into the oft perused category of "oh damn!", i.e. you look at the card and are awestruck by its awesomeness. R&D have gotten really good at making Timmy stuff recently. However, closer inspection reveals some problems with its candidature for a beatstick slot in my list:
  • It scales linearly. That's okay, the overwhelming majority of creatures do. Multiples don't interact with each other.
  • It's an attack trigger. You have to be a hell of an attack trigger to make it in.
  • The illusion of choice mostly boils down to drawing a card. You can theoretically make some 3/3s or gain some life, but most of the time you'll just draw the card.
So when you add it all up, you get a wannabe card drawer that's nowhere near as potent as Ohran Frostfang, or even Garruk's Packleader. The fact he's an attack trigger hurts him the most here, so Ghireded copies do nothing at first and you just have a plain tapped 6/6. Think I'll pass on this one :P
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

M21/JMP Change


Curtain. R&D offices. FRED and STEVE, the brains behind Nyxbloom Ancient, just got a standing ovation for Fiery Emancipation and are coasting on the glory in a post-meeting brainstorm session.

FRED: So which enchantment from 2008 do we rip off as the next part of the mega-cycle? The white one or the blue one? The black one may need a little finesse, but if we managed to turn double strike into damage tripling, we can do anything!
STEVE: Okay, cool your jets. That's a few sets down the line problem, we don't want to desensitise our clientele. I guess let's get cracking on more stuff for M21. What archetype still needs some support?
FRED: I guess we could do something for the whole Gruul "power 4" thing.
STEVE: Sure. Hmm... how about some card draw? The last time green got an EDH draw auto-include was Grenge all the way back in ELD three standard sets ago. An Elemental Bond?
FRED: With a power check of 4 rather than 3? That's unplayable!
STEVE: Okay, fine, fine, guess we'll throw in some sweeteners. What's a downside of the original?
FRED: It's a dismal topdeck late in the game. What if we add a clause that it checks if there's some beef on the field already and if that is the case then you get a card for your trouble?
STEVE: I like that, let's roll with that. Is that enough though? A lot of the archetype chaff lacks evasion and can be chumped for days, so how about we also add global trample as another form of alternate payoff?
FRED: We're on fire over here! And yeah, fair point with regards to lacking evasion. Let me just slide Colossal Dreadmaw into the file real quick.

Curtain.

M21/JMP Change
Approximate Total Cost:

When introducing Gruul Chungus into the mix, I begrudgingly cut Garruk's Packleader and acknowledged that pulling Wheel of Fortune instead might be the correct call. Between a relatively high curve and numerous other draw options, Ghired doesn't tend to run low on cards and Wheel's hit the bin a lot more often than the stack. As such, given the new Elemental Bond variant in town, the cut was pretty easy. Let's deconstruct the include from a Ghired perspective:
  • It needs to be formally disclosed that bumping the power from 3 to 4 leads to almost half of Bond's targets falling off and not working. However, the appeal of Bond is that it draws cards off token copies. Most of these three-power flukes are utility creatures like Odric or Ogre Battledriver that you're not super likely to copy. Copiers tend to favour the actual beatsticks, with secondary application to various ETB stuff that's too small to care either way. As such, not that big a deal.
  • Rhinos still work here. This is very important, as a lot of the mid game is spent making Rhinos and fishing for the pieces to get something more impactful copied. Plus the whole check rider means this can come down the turn after Ghired, if that's what sequencing wants to happen, for no net cards lost.
  • The beatsticks still draw cards, for the most part. Archangel of Thune does not, but will happily accept the static trample instead once there are multiple double digit sized bodies after the first round of buffs. Boomgoat doesn't care too much as an endgame usher.
There were a few other putative cards that could be mentioned:
  • Fiery Emancipation is an interesting option, given Gisela's success. However, part of Gisela's charm is the damage halving. You don't die as easily on the crackback, the swingers don't fall over as easily to blocks. Ultimately, I don't think this is a deck for the tripler, but I could be wrong. Given the choice between this and True Conviction, I'm leaning the latter, and I'm already not running that.
  • Neyith of the Dire Hunt is stuck in some nondescript purgatory where it kinda Xenagods, kinda draws some cards, but ultimately doesn't do anything too successfully.
  • Terror of the Peaks is an interesting consideration for hitting face or controlling the board. It's a similar sort of card to Inferno Titan, and there are arguments that can be made for both. I've seen some Warstorm Surge Ghireds, that seems like an easy upgrade at least :P
  • The reprint gods have been benevolent, I'd recommend picking up Selvala once she dips even further down. Heroic Intervention is also a welcome one.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

yeti1069
Posts: 1180
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

That was a fun read. Definitely looks worth including.

The only comment I had was, if you haven't been copying Ogre Battledriver, you absolutely SHOULD!

A while back I won a game by copying the Ogre with Flameshadow, populating it with something (maybe Selesnya Eulogist), and then on the attack with Ghired...all with a token doubler in play. First tokens see each other and each get +4, next two tokens get +8, next two attacking tokens get +12. That was 66 damage kind of out of nowhere for the table. In addition, any copies that stick around make all the other shenanigans that much better.

Separately, I've added Pathbreaker to the list, and it won me the first game after including it. Having a force multiplier like that should definitely help close out more games. I was wondering, though, whether we want an ETB damage pumper more than an attack trigger. Craterhoof is obviously bonkers, but even something with a smaller buff might be relevant. Notably, copying an ETB buffer is going to have a bigger immediate impact. What do you think?

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Oh, I have occasionally copied Battledriver, but returns are just better with the dedicated beatsticks.

Name a non-Hoof ETB pump that doesn't get put to shame by Thunderfoot Baloth, which is already in contention for least good beatstick. The exponential stacking of Boomgoat is crazy good when copied, as shown in the IKO update graphs, fitting right into the whole "scales ridiculously well in multiples" theme that the beatsticks have going on.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

ZNR Change


In the IKO/C20 update, I made some beatstick math graphs that I'm likely to call upon often in the future. In the left-hand plot, the highest value for the first turn swing goes to Pathbreaker Ibex at around 80. Where would I put a point with "kills two opponents" on it?

ZNR Change
Approximate Total Cost:

So here's the thing. Each Angel of Destiny plinks for 4 damage. Get the triple dip going and you've got 12 damage, which translates to 36 points of healing. You can be half dead and that brings you up to enough health to kill with Angel triggers! If mauled below 19, tossing an additional Rhino or two at some poor chump's face should do the trick. Angel immediately becomes one of the list's premier beatsticks, and is only slightly kept in check by the fact the populated copy technically doesn't know it attacked. The same mechanism that enables the Aurelia combo now stops a different card from being beyond busted in the shell. Nevertheless, Angel has a good home here. It's a super narrow card, outclassed by stuff like Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance in dedicated lifegain shells. I live for that sort of hyper specialised jank though. Taking out Archangel of Thune, as per the IKO/C20 math post it's the lowest impact of the beatsticks and I like my current ratios. Plus, Archangel needs to be copied to do anything meaningful. Thunderfoot Baloth, the next in line, idly offers immediate pump which can be quite nice for getting populating going without a full setup online, and accidentally synergises with Quartzwood Crasher. It's actually quite nice that some of the dedicated beatsticks are not dead weight without copying. Angel doesn't do a ton without cloning, but can be used goofily in silly games to just harmlessly heal up. Or are you being harmless? Maybe the Angel will go into the red zone next time and someone will go down!

I had high hopes for Moraug, Fury of Akoum, as it's one of those cards that you read and your jaw just drops. Unfortunately, it playtested a lot worse than it read. Turns out that being a six drop with landfall actually secretly makes you a seven drop. Being a seven drop is a lot different than costing six. Is this Avacyn/Gisela tier? Not even close, as evidenced by me prioritising those in sequencing in test games. Sure, every now and then you get a god setup where you draw heavily and have enough ramp/fetches to get combats as far as the eye can see. But there are also those games where you stall on ~8 mana, as mentioned in the Genesis Wave spitballing post. Variance is not a trait I'm looking for in high drops. Bala Ged Recovery // Bala Ged Sanctuary is probably the best of the land/spell hybrids, but I'm already a bit low on basics and unwilling to carve out a slot for this. Lithoform Engine is interesting, but too costly. Bramble Sovereign demonstrates that adding a tax of two to copy a body is already enough to get some scoffing directed at you, costing four for the privilege is not going to cut it, not even if you moonlight as a Strionic Resonator. The card does a lot, but I just don't think the list would be able to reliably cough up mana to make good use of the options in the crucial turns. Skyclave Apparition would make for a nice potentially copiable source of removal if it weren't CMC constrained.

I'm actually wondering if I dismissed Flawless Maneuver too quickly. Aggro likes to curve out, and being able to do whatever deployment while holding a freebie get out of wrath free could be nice for tempo. Might be worth giving up Chord of Calling surprise anti-wrath uses and scratch off Selfless Spirit for this? Need to think about this a bit more.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
plushpenguin
Posts: 248
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by plushpenguin » 3 years ago

Aggro decks value tempo enough that you will want it. You may want Deflecting Swat too, although that one should be less of a priority.

yeti1069
Posts: 1180
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by yeti1069 » 3 years ago

I put Flawless Maneuver in my deck as soon as I got a copy, and it has done work every single time I've drawn it.

Leaving mana up with this deck is tough, as you've noted, and it commits heavily to the board.

The biggest problem I've had in games lately has been too many value pieces in hand without the mana to really utilize them all. I've been thinking about cutting Bramble for a while now, since I almost never activate him. He doesn't curve well at all, especially with Ghired. I've had the occasional cute play of copying a value piece for an opponent, but it has happened rarely.

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

I know what you mean, these gameplay patterns have shaped my list too. I see your list earlier in the thread following most of these findings, but I'll write them out here for the sake of a putative uninitiated reader:
  • Beatsticks at 6 mana or below. This way they can come down the turn after Ghired and be primed for a copy and multi-swing the turn after. Avenger of Zendikar ultimately died because of this.
  • Utility preferred at 4 mana or below, has to be a hell of a card to make it in if it costs more. This way it can be deployed before Ghired if encountered early, and deployed with some pocket change left over if encountered late. Even if the spare mana can't be efficiently utilised, looking like you're holding up a Heroic Intervention or something just because you didn't manage to spend everything ultra efficiently does sometimes help dodge interaction.
  • As a corollary of sorts to the two prior points, if you cost 6 or more mana you need to have a big, immediate, non-variable impact when landing on the battlefield. Or be Boomgoat-tier the turn after you land, which is a hurdle so high only Boomgoat itself has managed to clear it so far :P
  • Ramp/removal at 3 and below. This one's non-negotiable, there's just too much going on at 4+ to have this mixed in there. This is often where the post-utility pocket change goes.
  • No activated ability populates. You're too busy setting up various stuff in the crucial turns to make good use of it.
Bramble Sovereign curves so poorly as it demands a two-mana overhead, which turns a humble five drop into an effective seven drop when seven drops provenly clunk out. It's honestly kind of funny how I'm happy to pay five mana to copy a thing the turn after I deploy it, yet a two-mana tax on the turn it comes in is a point of contention. Especially given how Flameshadow Conjuring is perfectly fine! What a difference one mana can make. Thing is, there's a finite amount of good copying, and there's nothing trying to make a run for Sovereign's slot. Also, as a side note, I'd recommend not paying the trigger for opponents' creatures - they get the copy, not you :P

All this talk of mana efficiency has me thinking of Teferi's Protection as the cut for Flawless Maneuver instead actually. Holding up two for Heroic Intervention is easier, and Chord of Calling into Selfless Spirit can be accomplished with some untapped critters. That said, good ole TefProt is a catch-all against all sorts of nonsense like -X/-X or bounce the other options do nothing to help with. Need to sleep on this a bit more, I feel.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

I haven't gotten around to more Flawless Maneuver considerations, as my group hasn't been playing a lot recently. However, I just had a very entertaining game that merits documenting. I blasted out of the gate with the dreaded turn one Sol Ring... into Blade of Selves! I figured I'd go for a risky line turn two, and I hard cast Search for Tomorrow getting a Forest rather than the Mountain to fill in colour access, in the interest of following up with Sylvan Library. I'm sure to find some way to land red in the top three next turn, no? No. Nevertheless, a land was scavenged off the top, I looked at my hand, some synapses connected, and I chased out Steve and stuck the Blade on him. Next turn Ohran Frostfang landed, and I assembled a cute, ditzy-looking, yet surprisingly potent value engine. Ramp two, draw three as the result of each attack is honestly not bad. My mana pool got wicked stupid wicked fast, I held back protection in case it turned out to be needed, and eventually dropped Gisela. Once it got back to me, Helm of the Host and Anointed Procession appeared and every foe got a 40-power angel to the face. That's something I've wanted to do for a while but never got around to, until now. A rather unconventional series of plays all around, Ghiredless wins usually involve Aurelia and hyper-efficient beatsticks.

How can you not love this game?
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

CMR's main boon to the deck is the Three Visits reprint (way overdue, and very appreciated). None of the new cards are in the include realm though. Hans Eriksson is a hilarious card that deserves a mention for hilarity alone, but doesn't gel with what the deck is doing. Jeweled Lotus is likely to do more harm than good, the deck already doesn't run Mana Vault because it wants its mana sustained to get out the beatstick, copier etc., something Lotus doesn't allow for. Ghired comes out, starts making Rhinos, people get all leery because oh man Lotus, and you're archenemy without the real estate to back it up. Port Razer can pull some Breath of Fury-style infinite combat stuff, and it doesn't even need a haste outlet to keep going. If that's your jam, this guy is a solid option. Promise of Tomorrow is reasonable anti-wipe tech, but doesn't help out token hordes.

In other news, I'm still slowly maturing to finding a slot for Flawless Maneuver. I've got a Lolbold deck on the go, and that one makes good use of it, which is reassuring. In terms of beatstick use, there's a lot of Angel of Destiny and Quartzwood Crasher. It's not just the newness, the former's the best option when copied and the latter's the best option when not copied. I honestly don't remember the last time I tutored Kalonian Hydra, which is a strange thing to say from early 2020 me's perspective.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

SaintRumpterfrabble
Posts: 12
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by SaintRumpterfrabble » 3 years ago

Hiya, any reason you're not running Dryad Arbor?


User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Sorry for the delay, you know how 2020 be.

I'm not a fan of either of these, though this may be my own personal perspective. Dryad Arbor is best when turning GSZ into a Rampant Growth for G, maybe sometimes as a surprise sacrificial lamb off a fetchland. Otherwise, it's an effectively CIPT forest which happens to die when you get wiped. I never liked putting too much mana in dorks due to their vulnerability, and this is essentially a dork. Notice Fireflux Squad says target, so you can't munch a freshly populated Rhino token. That, and whatever Polymorph pops out gets thrust straight into combat minus attack trigger, which weakens the impact of a number of the beatsticks. Oh, and imagine accidentally sticking Kiki or Selvala into the fray. So all in all clumsy combat stuff.

I haven't played the deck in a while. There hasn't been a ton of Magic in the group, and the bits that did happen went to ironing out some new CMR lists. Ghired is sure to make a triumphant return at some point though.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

KHM-Inspired Change


I saw Cat Car, and like everyone else my gut reaction was that this merits consideration for Ghired. I mean, it's essentially a second copy of the commander, no? And it costs four, so it comes out a turn ahead of Ghired and can start double trouble with the head honcho soon thereafter. I assembled some playtest games, and the results were lukewarm. As it turns out, getting an extra couple Rhinos is not the worst, but the critical gameplay moment is copying a beatstick. Once that's accomplished, Cat Car kinda helps, but at the same time not a lot. Comparing it to a straight token doubler has the doubler make two initial copies and two Ghired tokens for four total swingers, while Cat Car only has the standard two swingers and an extra in the back line. Plus in the event of doubled copies, that's two attack triggers - nontrivially important given the annoying prevalence of attack trigger beef in the list. Even just straight comparing Cat Car to Ghired is unfavourable, as sticking the token into combat turns out to be good for pressuring people, trying to sneak in before you get outvalued. An important lesson in gameplay dynamics of the deck, apparently I've been actively using something I believed to be a drawback to close games quicker, helping get there via beef choice. Oh, and Cat Car is also a 4/4 walker, so it also needs help to avoid death.

I remember early on in the deck's life, I cut Growing Ranks and remarked how it'd be a much better card if it didn't trigger on upkeep, but rather later when I have my temporary copies to amplify. Well, this is what Cat Car does - it fires off in combat, and in spite of that it's still too ineffective and conditional to make its way into the list. I've complained in here before about how the deck is extremely modular, but I do think I've done a pretty good job of streamlining it given the needed pieces. In light of that, I've finally matured to a change that should have happened a while back.

KLD-Inspired Change
Approximate Total Cost:

When does Ghired have three mana to hold up TefProt? When he's spinning his wheels and nothing is coming together, so the deck's in trouble and will be outpaced soon. Or, when he's already assembled the copied beef and is just taking a while to close out. That latter narrow window is where TefProt really shines, as suddenly you're impervious to everything, you can juke a wipe, you can juke a backswing, the world's your oyster and it feels amazing. And if the ceiling is high/exhilarating enough, it's easy to forget about the floor. TefProt is live in ceiling mode for a very small fraction of a game. By contrast, Flawless Maneuver offers its lower ceiling since Ghired touches down, granting a less catch-all protection for a few more turns. And what important turns those can be - getting wiped somewhere in the curve-out of commander-beatstick-copy-slam is often a crazy tempo hit. This does not protect from every single wipe under the sun, but it covers a decent chunk of bases. So this should up overall performance consistency, a goal that the list has been pursuing with its updates. Stripping away various conditional cards and trying to milk the most reliable setup out of the beef-copier-survival trio. Plus Maneuver has some tricks up its sleeve too, as in one test game I slammed down Aurelia, copied her, popped an indestructibility shield for free and went to town. The wombo wouldn't have worked otherwise, as there was ground gum to eat Ghired.

There are some other considerations in KHM:
  • Calamity Bearer - Damage doubling on non-legendary bodies has existed before, but they tend to start at six. By constrast, this bugger is four mana. That's even cheaper than Ghired! The titular triple dip makes each Bearer slap or 24, which is a really nontrivial amount of slap. Thing is, he's a walker, with no evasion whatsoever, and all of four toughness. It is not hard to just chump him out of relevance, or block him out of existence if there's no survival around. The other beatsticks tend to operate in more tramply realms, or have wings and a weird attack check clause.
  • Snow duals - Awesome, a typed land cycle that's gonna cost pennies. Great fuel for more budget mana bases, as these respond to land-type searches from ramp spells.
  • Tibalt's Trickery - This is an intriguing piece of tech, as it can be used to stuff something contextually relevant and likely flip something less frightening. Kind of removal, kind of wrath protection, but Heroic Intervention feels safer due to the lack of splashback. I might be wrong on this call.
  • Toski, Bearer of Secrets - A pre-Ghired Coastal Piracy, not the worst of ideas. However, Harmonize feels more reliable in its flat rate of return independent of game state. Plus Toski lacks the blocking deterrent and potential copy shenanigans of Ohran Frostfang.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
MeowZeDung
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by MeowZeDung » 3 years ago

Have you ever given Cultivator of Blades any thought for this list? I was just looking it over real good for a new deck I'm building that has the ability to put several token copies of it in play alongside a go-wide army, and hoo boy does that thing work wonders for the team in the red zone when it attacks in multiples. It might be too slow or otherwise weak for your list, but I still thought I'd throw it out there for discussion.

EDIT: Unfortunately, cultivator doesn't play nice with Ghired, Flamerush Rider, or Blade of Selves, but I still love the way that attack trigger layers and grows in multiples.
Kykar primer and other active decks (click!)

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

Pathbreaker Ibex does a similar thing, and there's also trample! Still, this is an option to keep in mind for the future, once Ibex gets money enough to become a talking point in the budget box. Thanks for reminding me it exists.

The deck did quite start liking its attack triggers, unfortunately. Three prime beatsticks are all forms of attack trigger, and the sad thing is that they're just the best in the business at what they do. They're all better than Archangel of Thune, which I think is the best piece of beef not currently in the list. I think I need to stop thinking that the deck is weak, the 2020 beefslab additions have really helped the deck start slapping. In a recent game, I didn't even bother casting Ghired - I landed some means of making two tokens (want to say copier and doubler?), combined it with Hall of the Bandit Lord, and one-shot the whole table with zero warning with Angel of Destiny turn six.

As a corollary of sorts to the above point, haste is good. It's nice for attack trigger stuff as it makes it possible to sometimes send extra copies of it in. It's just nice for aggro smash in general as you get to clock people faster. It feels like I should at least consider running some more haste, but the deck's modularity rears its head again. Do I have the space to try to support yet another variable layer in here?
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

STX/C21 Change


Unsurprisingly, STX didn't have a lot to offer Ghired as a place focused on wizardry and whatnot. I was kind of expecting an RX Magecraft creature copier engine piece, and something along those lines turned up in C21.

STX/C21 Change
Approximate Total Cost:

Rionya is better than Kiki in the shell most of the time, and those are not words that get thrown around lightly. Doing a Helm of the Host infinite is something that has barely come up, whereas I imagine that Rionya's ability to stuff a Twinflame onto every spell cast prior to combat is going to be quite relevant. The list is rocking 20+ instants/sorceries. Used a GSZ to find that beatstick? Here, have an extra copy of stuff. You got to cast a Nature's Lore and a Swords to Plowshares prior to Rionya because you had seven mana? Here, have two extra copies of stuff. And extra copies of stuff are kind of the premise of this deck. Oh yeah, and Rionya also gets to combo with Aurelia, albeit not quite as powerfully as a Helm of the Host as the token has to survive the combats.

If I'm being honest, the card makes me a bit uncomfortable. If it didn't have the "one plus", it'd be an interesting engine piece and I'd have to do some nontrivial testing to see if I can even fit it in here. As is, it's pretty much a Kiki by default and only scales up. On the whole, Wizards have been doing fine with new cards after the great 2019 debacle, but every now and then something comes along that really does not need the extra "one plus" it's got going on. Goldspan Dragon and Tergrid, God of Fright are examples from the previous set. The former gets tipped into nonsense land by the haste, and it's entirely possible that it could use a bit of trimming even outside it; did the latter really need an infinite mana win sink on the back?

Other than Rionya, there's not a lot to write home about. Ecological Appreciation would require eight mana to do anything meaningful here, and that's decidedly nontrivial for a deck trying to curve out from a five-mana commander. Also, there's Tooth and Nail at just one mana more. Surge to Victory is an interesting pump effect coupled with some cast shenanigans, and would be particularly crazy with extra combat spells, which we don't get to run as they're too conditional for this modular shell.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
EonAon
Posts: 274
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by EonAon » 3 years ago

Yeah I play trostani, and Sovereign always seemed like a good but bad card even in that deck. That extra two really adds up when your trying to get a 5cc play out and copied. It really feels like it wants to be a enchantment more than a creature. I do have a question though, how has frostfang worked for you? I've been considering it for my somewhat more aggressive trostani deck and it seemed like a huge play, but never do anything card with a large bullseye attached.

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

It's so weird, isn't it? Flameshadow Conjuring demands one mana as tribute and is perfectly fine, yet Bramble Sovereign's two is problematic. I think in my case this has to do with the fact copying Ghired with Conjuring provides a nontrivial benefit of two extra Rhinos. So you take a while, play the guy out on 6 mana, and then you're set for copying beatsticks for the most part. Meanwhile, there's not a chance in hell that you'll pay 7 total for an extra mana when casting the commander, but then need to pay 7 to copy even the cheapest of beef. So sequencing is more wonky.

It's genuinely quite amusing to me that I kept Helm of the Host in the list over it. Somehow paying five mana whenever is more palatable than two mana on the spot. Plus Helm enables a goofy exponential barrage of Ghireds, which is funny.

As for Ohran Frostfang, that card has always been amazing for me. Thing is, I have access to Rhinos and Wood Elves, which make up the main fire power for Frostfang refuels. Deathtouch and trample means blocking is futile, and deathtouch plus spent ETB weenie means your opposition is unlikely to throw away real creatures. There's a particularly fun game described a few posts up where I combined Steve with Blade of Selves, with Frostfang in the back line. Are you gonna lose a real creature to stop a single point of damage and a card draw? Snek also helps Ghired survive combat, as rather than getting easily blocked out of existence he can now trade with whatever gets dumped in front of him. If the swinging creatures would get chumped and lack the trample to force through the damage, then yeah, Frostfang contributes little. But here he does quite a bit.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

User avatar
EonAon
Posts: 274
Joined: 3 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by EonAon » 3 years ago

You know in one of your posts above you said you were looking to find more haste for the deck. Made a small list and I think the relevant ones would be Xenagos, Hanweir, and Hammer just for the utility they can bring. Xenegos is a passive no mana push forward. Hanweir is just another 1 tap haste. Hammer is just all haste all time and then eats lands you may draw that you dont need later on. Not sure how often you tap out a turn so Battlements would be my last choice.

User avatar
Rumpy5897
Tuner of Jank
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Rumpy5897 » 3 years ago

I'd prefer to not spend mana on haste on the turn the creature comes out, on similar grounds to Bramble Sovereign being clunky. The firm leader was Lightning Greaves as it costs two and token copies don't need the haste, but then Spell Kiki got itself printed and I can't anymore as there'd be shroud when it's time to make tokens. As such, the current leader is Rhythm of the Wild - it's got good interaction with alternate haste sources by potentially granting +1/+1 counters in the event of effect duplication. It's nice to have redundant copies of support pieces contribute if possible, e.g. the combat survival/enhancers are largely stackable with each other.
 
EDH Primers (click me!)
Deck is Kill Club
Show
Hide

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Decklists”