Greven, Predator Captain - No Pain No Gain

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
I also came across Corpse Dance which brought back all sorts of nostalgia for me. I reckon it's gonna be great here, even @ 5cmc.
You do have to be careful that you don't have too many reanimation effects and draw no creatures.
I could put an Animate Dead and proclaim that it's a "two mana draw 6 cards most times". But the thing is that you already have needed to A.) Draw a creature and B.) sacrifice a creature already.
As I've found with playing, getting that first creature sacrifice is key and there have been plenty of games where even with 1/4 of the deck creatures, you are still waiting.
Plus reanimation has more cards that can disrupt it. A single Deathrite Shaman will make them all feel real bad.
Perhaps I'm being over-dramatic lol, but I do think you want to invest in a good creature ratio first, before you dip too heavy into the from the graveyard plan.
Do you ever have consistency issues with mox diamond in a 35 land deck? I slotted mine in but I am super, super anxious about that's validity. I'm trying it because there's a lot of draw to help hit land drops, but it's not without it's own risk.
No it's pretty great in my deck, but I am geared for draw early, so I don't think it will be quite as good in your deck. But if you got one, then definitely give it a go.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Yeah, I got one, and I just ordered a suite of fodder guys, but mainly since I forgot my extortionist first time around. I'll be tinkering a lot more as that (hopefully) final order arrives.

edit: Last group of cards to throw around. If a card exists only to sac for fuel, it needs to be three or less and draw five or more. At four, it needs to draw at least six and/or stick for at least a turn to setup.


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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

I thought I'd share a game result as it had some interesting things.

Firstly I'm trying some of the cards posters have mentioned with Pact of the Titan, Eldrazi Obligator, Captivating Crew, just to see how they fare.

Interestingly I had a starting hand that had both Pact of the Titan and Eldrazi Obligator in my opening hand, however they didn't play a role in this game.
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My opening hand was; Pact of the Titan, Eldrazi Obligator, Chrome Mox, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, Swamp, Necropotence.

First turn I exile the Imperial Seal to the Chrome Mox, play Swamp and Demonic Tutor for Mana Crypt.

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On my second turn I play out Sulfurous Springs and Mana Crypt and cast Greven.

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On my third turn I play out Necropotence and draw 4 cards to bring my hand back up to 7 cards, drawing most importantly lifelink cards in Vampiric Link and Essence Harvest.
I dealt 10 commander damage to the Riku of the Two Reflections player.

Image

On the fourth turn I put Vampiric Link on Greven. Use Necropotence enough times to get his power up to 30. The reason is that the Riku of the Two Reflections player is on 30 life, so I one shot attack another player, then cast Essence Harvest killing the Riku player.
I go up to 69 life (giggity giggity) and draw up to a hand of 26 cards. The last opponents scopes at this. A turn 4 win.

Image
I had a game using Captivating Crew on stealing players commander mainly, but I actually lost that game because the tempo wasn't as impactful as I suspected. I didn't draw any of my mass creature removal and honestly drawing 3 cards from an opponents power stats just doesn't dig you through your deck the same way as your own 6+ power creatures. So it's exactly as I suspected.

I've drawn the Pact of the Titan a number of times and never wanted to cast it, so at least I know it's just a bit too situational to be good.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

So, I've actually disassembled my version and established all the pieces you and I have in common, then I will reassemble based on your skeleton with my ideas once my last set of cards arrives. I value the directions you've taken and have just a couple of theories to try around that.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Just a few more changes. I'm still having a lot of games where I'm still waiting for creatures during periods. A lot of it is due to aggressive mulligans looking to get artifact mana to speed up when you can cast Greven. However this often means that you are without a creature to sacrifice in your opener as you can't really make this a priority when trying to cast him sooner.

Plus sometimes when it's your first attack and somebody correctly times removal so that you don't get a chance to sacrifice the creature you cast, then your creature is often gone (due to sacrifice at end of turn) and your top decking for another.

Given this I just upping my creature count by 2.

I've also added Plunge into Darkness which you can combo one shot opponents by using as much as your total and you should find one of your life-gain instant spells to grab.

I thought I'd better add at least one catch-all removal card for troublesome cards. I got locked out of a game where the opponent had Grave Pact and really there was nothing I could even tutor for, so Chaos Warp covers this, and even can get a land..like Maze of Ith.

You can see I've made some hard cuts, with cards that I've definitely had success with and even won game specifically with them, but Aggravated Assault and Exquisite Blood are two of the more mana intensive cards and subject to enchantment removal.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

I was wondering when you'd add some spot removal. Grave Pact (any edict, really) is bad news for a build like yours that relies on few creatures. That's the primary reason I don't like the ball lightnings compared to another longer lasting creature.

The fast mana starts were a bit puzzling to me, because unlike Kaalia or Zur, Greven often doesn't have an immediate need to enter quick as you don't have a body lying around for him to feast on. Or in your build you'd need 3BRRRR to get your sac off, which of course is a lot. So, yes, I think there's a bit of a disconnect in rushing Greven with fast mana. It's still good, obviously, but you might just have the wrong distribution.

Sometimes, despite our best efforts, our opponents correctly read our plays and advance to stop us proper. You're pretty all-in which is great, except when it's not. Then it's a pretty miserable time. Having a backup plan is always preferable.

Btw, instead of aggravated assault, since you typically only care about attacking with an army of one anyway, I think you'd prefer Seize the Day. Two extra combats should be enough anyway, right?

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Oh good, my trash pile finally came in. Now I can brew closer to my ideal. I'll try to post it after I lie down.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Okay, here we go, I got the sweet spot now.
Greven's Garbage Day

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Approximate Total Cost:

Deck stats: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/greven-p ... w-version/
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Okay, here we go, I got the sweet spot now.

Deck stats: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/greven-p ... w-version/
Let me know how you go with it.

I do think you'll need more lifegain, it really does make all the difference if you can deliver lifelink damage. Your creature base is also much more geared towards causing you damage than mine are. And I still maintain that life gain is the most important part of a Greven deck and not the lifeloss. Lifeloss is great for killing one or two players, but for multiplayer you have to be able to claw that lifeloss back, otherwise you will lose to the remaining players.
I suggest Rush of Vitality over Gift of Doom for the indestructible trick.

I really don't like Bitterblossom with all your Pestilence effects and then even Repercussion to make that hurt more.

I would try and get your land count up to 34 lands. Hitting your initial lands drops before you get to activate Greven is still important.
I know Twisted Abomination and Igneous Pouncer help this, but just for making sure you are in most games from the start I'd make some cuts. I think Bitterblossom and Conqueror's Flail would be the cards I'd cut and then play 2 lands instead.

One thing to look out for is that Undying Evil is a nonbo with Lightning Greaves. The reason I'm mentioning it is that Seize the Day can trip you up if you've sacrificed a creature and post combat you don't have enough mana to cast another creature to equip the Greaves onto.
I seriously recommend Fury of the Horde as your additional combat option. The difference of post combat not having mana and being able to re-attack has won be quite a few games.

I'm not convinced of the Avatar of Discord selection. You don't have much reanimation in the deck, and if it's your first creature you cast (for sacrifice fodder) it's really going to hurt the way you plan out your next turns. Like you will have to discard some cards that would have helped you otherwise.
I'd play Mijae Djinn over it easily. The triple red hasn't caught me out any game yet as far as I can remember for this and Ball Lightning.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

So, right, I don't really recall why I put Bitterblossom in here. Unless it was to ensure I always had a body to feed with? That sounds right, and if so, that's a cut. I'm certainly not married to blossom in a deck without skullclamp. I'd like to keep the flail because the grand abolisher effect is a strong one for a deck like this that relies on not being interrupted, and I can't play D-Grid because we have enough instant speed interaction to be tripped up by it.

I'm really not with the one shot pump spells because we're already pretty all-in, and there's only so many of these cards we can add to a deck before we just stop functioning without the commander. That's an opportunity cost that I don't believe we need to expose ourselves to. Even if they do grant lifelink. I'm definitely aware that shroud is sometimes awkward, but I think the boots are still an inevitability that we can't not play.

It's possible that I should replace avatar with ruinous minotaur, or maybe even spined fluke sure. I can't play djinn because, as you see, I've slanted the mana towards B in my build towards the moon. Or maybe just go with loxodon warhammer and get away from this spot completely. I won't play the ball lightnings because the math doesn't work well with them, although i may just make this blistering firecat since, ideally, you morph it until you're ready and then for RR, you draw 7 for 1 life. Which is of course a blowout.

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Post by Artaud » 4 years ago

Did you think about Thunderkin Awakener? It provides bodies to sacrifice as long as your low-toughness Elementals count is high enough. Blistering Firecat, Lightning Skelemental, Ashenmoor Liege, Igneous Pouncer, Spitebellows, or even Generator Servant are all fine choices for such an aggressive deck.
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

[mention]darrenhabib[/mention];

So I thought more about our chat last night while I was working, and I made some edits. I'm still tempted to add mox diamond, but I'm really not with that with the current land count. Much as I hate seeing $250 just lying here on my desk :fuming:. Additionally, I discovered a combo I can reasonably set up which led to me cutting Gift of Doom, and I'll touch on that in a minute.

avatar of discord --> master of the feast. Same spot on the curve, same cards drawn, same evasion, and much more likely to stick to the next turn.
seize the day --> kolaghan's command. I love K-Command, it's so versatile and always relevant.
gift of doom --> SoFaF. here's where my combo comes in...
bitterblossom --> snow-swamp. basic lands are good, I like basics especially with my 2c moon strat.
conqueror's flail --> snow-mountain

So, you attack with Greven (holding sword of feast and famine), Combat Celebrant, choose to exert. Trigger, feed celebrant to Greven to draw 4, lose 1. Smack someone hard. Start your next combat phase, then buy back corpse dance to get your celebrant back. Attack, exerting celebrant, then feed him to Greven and draw your four cards...you see where this is going. SoFaF protects well like the gift of doom did, but sword protects better and is a better universal top deck. Yes. it's a three card combo so it's unstable and probably won't come up often...but it's there and all the pieces are good on their own (corpse dance especially as it always makes sure you have a body to feed on. it really doesn't matter what we get back because we just want to get back something). Bonus, it's a great follow-up with the land cyclers.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

So I finally played this last night. I noticed a few things, and had some awkward top decks. I also noticed a definite weakness to edicts, which suggests my prior version with the disposable bodies is a much more correct direction (threaten effects would not have helped at all); Squee, Bloodghast, Bloodsoaked Champion, Nether Traitor, even as far down the list as Reassembling Skeleton & Bitterblossom would all go so far in shoring up this very, overly glaring weakness. And I'll explain why.

Three way game, I on Greven versus Kodama of the South Tree (lolwut whhhyyy? but I digress), and Whisper, Blood Liturgist (whom was never cast either). So, I knocked Kodama out quick courtesy of Volcano Hellion (whom, fun fact, is not like fire covenant and in fact only kills one guy >_>. Still great, but that did affect some math here) and Combat Celebrant. I drew 10 cards this turn after my celebrant's attack. This was my t5, thanks to my chrome mox. Then I turned to Whisper. Things got a bit dicey and drawn out as he started running out pawn of ulamog, gonti, and then with a tortured existence a fleshbag began getting looped. Now, I had a basilisk collar and was at 65 life so I didn't feel endangered at any point, but it was a clear cockblock to our strategy here. It got worse when he ripped a plaguecrafter for redundancy. He also had a skullclamp to keep digging through the deck. But my life was still never pressured, at least not that I felt. Ultimately, I won when I top decked a Withering Wisps and just annihilated his board one B at a time, which he conceded to.

I had both imp's mischief and bolt bent stuck in my hand all game with nothing to target. Srsly, zero targeted spells came from either deck. I'm not sure if these were just bad decks, or if they were those people that cling to the "spot removal is bad" false ideology.

I got to utilize Doom Whisperer a lot, and the clear best surveil ever was dropping both Bob and Anger into the yard, in response to a Gonti trigger (I got Gonti'd three times).

Had I been playing Mijae Djinn, I couldn't have played it for a number of turns. As I suspected, I only had RR available for a number of turns, which makes sense as I slanted the mana much more heavily towards B.

Even with all my mana rocks, I only saw the mox and astrolabe and it made my early turns feel lackadaisical and wasted. I bet if I had more action, like the disposable bodies, I could make use of aggro creatures like Kjeldoran Dead and Spined Fluke, both of which being attractive with their very lucrative power :: toughness ratio. I suspect Cinder Wall would also be very strong as a draw3 for R. This kinda goes against the all in strat you've established, but, I think as the game last night taught me, playing this all-in is very risky and too prone to getting cockblocked out of the game.

Whew. Lastly, I suspect we are developing this deck far more than the average player, or even seasoned player, develops their deck, leading to an over-optimization where players begin to refuse play with you, citing, "you take this game too serious". Well, as if it weren't obvious. :P

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

3drinks here, still blowing up this thread with useful information. I came across a Greven-specific video on edhrec, and it presented some options we may not have considered. I'll start with the high synergy slam dunks;

Dawn of the Dead - is serving a better role than Corpse Dance and doesn't exile until end step. Pros: costs no mana after casting and makes sure Greven is a 6/5 each combat. Could make a lot of use from, say, an Ulamog's Crusher or Bane of Bala Ged (we'll still get the trigger on declare even if we're going to feed with them, and they draw massively as well as pump massive). Kuro, Pitlord is another enticing target, and of course Gary could end games with this...
Ad Nauseum - is there a reason we haven't done this yet, lol?
Flameshadow Conjuring - as well as helm of the host, always have feeding time fodder and get a rebuy on key etbs.
Font of agonies - is really interesting I think. Great at removing blocks, and I think we can power it pretty efficiently.
Command the Dreadhorde - and the big one. I think we just win off this, right? get immense value on the table and annihilate another player.
Archetype of Aggression - it's the one thing missing from Greven to make him unstoppable...think Lox Hammer belongs in here for the same reason.
Bloodtracker - could be okay, draws cards twice for us. A bit underwhelming as a four drop 2/2 but it grows cheap.
Treasonous Ogre - I think it's more correct to play this as well. I misevaluated it's usefulness (it's stats are not incredibly flattering).

And I recalled on my own, Phyrexian Processor! One shot someone the turn we cast, then make a huge dude to one shot someone and draw a bunch of cards next combat. Can't find a reason we shouldn't play processor.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
3drinks here, still blowing up this thread with useful information. I came across a Greven-specific video on edhrec, and it presented some options we may not have considered. I'll start with the high synergy slam dunks;

Dawn of the Dead - is serving a better role than Corpse Dance and doesn't exile until end step. Pros: costs no mana after casting and makes sure Greven is a 6/5 each combat. Could make a lot of use from, say, an Ulamog's Crusher or Bane of Bala Ged (we'll still get the trigger on declare even if we're going to feed with them, and they draw massively as well as pump massive). Kuro, Pitlord is another enticing target, and of course Gary could end games with this...
Ad Nauseum - is there a reason we haven't done this yet, lol?
Flameshadow Conjuring - as well as helm of the host, always have feeding time fodder and get a rebuy on key etbs.
Font of agonies - is really interesting I think. Great at removing blocks, and I think we can power it pretty efficiently.
Command the Dreadhorde - and the big one. I think we just win off this, right? get immense value on the table and annihilate another player.
Archetype of Aggression - it's the one thing missing from Greven to make him unstoppable...think Lox Hammer belongs in here for the same reason.
Bloodtracker - could be okay, draws cards twice for us. A bit underwhelming as a four drop 2/2 but it grows cheap.
Treasonous Ogre - I think it's more correct to play this as well. I misevaluated it's usefulness (it's stats are not incredibly flattering).

And I recalled on my own, Phyrexian Processor! One shot someone the turn we cast, then make a huge dude to one shot someone and draw a bunch of cards next combat. Can't find a reason we shouldn't play processor.
All interesting stuff. I think I should play Ad Nauseam.

For the same reason that I'm not playing Rite of the Raging Storm, Dawn of the Dead doesn't come into effect for a full turn. I can say with all honesty that this deck is just better than that. It looks to kill a player every turn and needs immediate resources for this task.

Command the Dreadhorde is a huge payoff card with the amount of cards that you normally discard due to hand size. An option for sure, but I've made my deck very cost effective and not sure where I can find a slot for it? I think at this stage I'll just lean on the Living Death for my big reanimation play.

Pity Archetype of Aggression has to remain in play for the trample. But anytime you can play a creature for the draw AND also use it for versatility then it's definitely worth a look at.

I've been a bit disappointed with the Eldrazi Obligator, I've never used it for the creature steal for one reason or another. So I'll give Archetype of Aggression a go over the Obligator.



I played a game yesterday that I should not have won. My opponents were all strong decks, and the Muldrotha, the Gravetide opponent had a Sol Ring start, so expectantly was just odds on crushing us.
I had a terrible start, missing an early land drop, and I was so far behind that rather than use the Chaos Warp in hand to remove Muldrotha in play (Turn 3) I had to use it on my own permanent in the hope of getting lucky with it in some way. Yeah dire stuff. I exchanged Hex Parasite into a Sol Ring, which actually was good enough to let me get some traction.
The Nicol Bolas, the Ravager player had a Waste Not down for the entirety of the game, and their deck was designed to make you discard cards, so they just kept drawing cards to have fuel to get you again every turn.
Luckily the Nicol Bolas player was able to keep the Muldrotha player in check a little bit, although they were still streaks ahead in resources because of Muldrotha ability (and being lots of turns ahead with the Sol Ring start).
I only got one attack in with Greven the entire game, and was killed off twice and so put him out of range for how advanced my opponents were with probably winning.
Literally at no stage of the game did I think I had a remote chance of winning, like not even 1%.
But I managed to cast a Mijae Djinn and then Disciple of Bolas to draw 6 cards, so had at least cards to work with.
What happened after that is that the Nicol Bolas player managed to wipe the board and then Bojuka Bog the Muldrotha to leave them with no resources. They scooped.
In my turn I was able to Demonic Tutor for Sneak Attack and put Moltensteel Dragon into play with it and the Nicol Bolas player was on 39 life. I was on 29 life, and used the Phyrexian mana to pump it up to a 18/4, then I cast Essence Harvest to bring me back up to 19 life, then used Phyrexian mana again to pump up to a 21/4 which was enough to kill the Nicol Bolas player (39-18-21=0) in one turn.
I then was able to kill the last player who was Saheeli, the Gifted who even though had 1/1 tokens in play, I used the trample creatures to push through damage.
I just should have not won that game, but sometimes it just lines up.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

What about the processor man? Ideally we pay 16 life to make lethal, then we can make 16/16s on defense that then feed Greven and bring him to the magic 21.

Win out of nowhere for sure.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
What about the processor man? Ideally we pay 16 life to make lethal, then we can make 16/16s on defense that then feed Greven and bring him to the magic 21.

Win out of nowhere for sure.
You definitely need the life gain already. The thing is that you won't get draw from it the first time you play it most times (8 mana is a lot). One shot an opponents at the expensive of life isn't the end all be all unless you have life gain. The thing with the other cards like Wall of Blood is that you can draw into the life gain instant cards.

It does have merit for sure, but it doesn't have the immediate effect of other life loss purposeful cards like Plunge into Darkness, Ad Nauseam, or even Hatred as they can all draw you into Blessing of Belzenlok, Cruel Feeding, Rush of Vitality, Grotesque Mutation.

You specifically need 8 mana to make this card work the best. You can lose 8 life to produce 8/8 tokens. Greven get's pumped up to 13, then you can produce a token and sacrifice for an additional 8 life loss.

Otherwise it's pretty risky right. Say you're on 30 life. You cast Phyrexian Processor and use it for 16 life, now you're on 14 life. Sure next turn you can produce a 16/16, but you can't sacrifice it to Greven even if you now have lifelink as you'll die immediately.
Maybe you can cast it for much less life loss. Produce 8/8 creatures for example. But the thing is that for 4 once you're drawing cards then you'll always have good options for using 4 mana to produce damage and draw anyway.

The other problem is that it's not very good to cast pre Greven as well. If you're losing a ton of life before you cast him then you are putting yourself on a very low life total before you've even gotten value from Greven.

The more creature light a build is, the better a card like this will be. You could have a really creature light build and lean on cards like this and Mimic Vat for your creature sources. It's a slower and less consistent build, but allows you to put more cards in for interaction for example.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

All good points to keep in mind.

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RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
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Epyon1201
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Post by Epyon1201 » 4 years ago

It's slow and janky, but it's not like our deck is going to clear a table by turn 4... Any thoughts on eternity vessel? If any deck can make that card playable it seems like this one would be it.

Plus it synergises well with fetches and ghost quarter like cards and lets us have access to some lifegain outside of the combat damage step.

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Epyon1201 wrote:
4 years ago
It's slow and janky, but it's not like our deck is going to clear a table by turn 4... Any thoughts on eternity vessel? If any deck can make that card playable it seems like this one would be it.

Plus it synergises well with fetches and ghost quarter like cards and lets us have access to some lifegain outside of the combat damage step.
I tried Eternity Vessel in my K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth deck and it's hard to get the card to work out. You need to cast it when you've got a reasonable life-total and it does cost 6 mana which turns out is a lot.
I think in about 4 games of drawing it and not casting it, figured it's just a bit too slow.

Epyon1201
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Post by Epyon1201 » 4 years ago

Figured as much, but wanted to suggest it becasue we are already ramping to 5 for Greven and 6 didnt seem like to much of a stretch,

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xeroxedfool
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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

I'm running Thought Vessel because all of my powerful mana rocks are in my Yawgmoth deck.
They're both Griffith, get it?

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
I'm running Thought Vessel because all of my powerful mana rocks are in my Yawgmoth deck.
That's not even a bad rock in honesty.

Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Challenge: why are we playing toxic deluge?

Ofc it's a powerful spell no doubt, but it doesn't help Greven at all. It maintains power equality rather than raw oomph when cast, and it's far less malleable in those situations where Greven is in play. Looks to me like a case of "good cards making it in a deck by reputation than deckbuilding theory". I think this is a cut.

Replacement: if you're not running it, I think Hellfire is the perfect replacement for it. If you're already on that like me, i think there's a real case to be made for Snuff Out (which I've already adopted), Vendetta (1cmc), or Devour in Shadow for the utilitarian use.

Modern
R{R/W} 87guide Burn
Commander
WRKellan, the Fae-Blooded // Birthright Boon (local secret santa gift)
RTorbran, Thane of Red Fell (Red Deck Wins)
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death (Slivers)
WBRKaalia HQ

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Challenge: why are we playing toxic deluge?

Ofc it's a powerful spell no doubt, but it doesn't help Greven at all. It maintains power equality rather than raw oomph when cast, and it's far less malleable in those situations where Greven is in play. Looks to me like a case of "good cards making it in a deck by reputation than deckbuilding theory". I think this is a cut.

Replacement: if you're not running it, I think Hellfire is the perfect replacement for it. If you're already on that like me, i think there's a real case to be made for Snuff Out (which I've already adopted), Vendetta (1cmc), or Devour in Shadow for the utilitarian use.
Greven does have 5 toughness, so a Toxic Deluge for 4 is going to wipe the board of most creatures. Any controlled creature kill is good, especially against go wide strategies, i.e. tokens.
So I do prefer it over any one-for-one removal. I did try Dismember, but it's a been a case of just wanting higher impact cards when it comes to creature removal.

Hellfire is a card that I could definitely see giving a go, but I wouldn't play it instead of Toxic Deluge, because the non-black clause is a major factor.

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