Greven, Predator Captain - No Pain No Gain

[3drinks]

If you're using it for four or less, you're just playing a Languish, which I'd argue we both know isn't strong enough to make the cut.

[xeroxedfool]

I played this deck a couple of times last night. It was pretty fun. I had one opponent who was running one of those decks that relies on you having good creatures in your hand or deck. I kept trolling him by asking if he wanted Ball Lightning or Phyrexian Soulgourger. I won one game off the back of Ad Nauseam. I used it to bait out some counterspells and the player I was expecting to counter it copied it instead. He flipped a bunch of split cards and went from the high 30s to about 14 life. I killed him with Essence Harvest in the next couple of turns and the other player with commander damage.

[3drinks]

What do we think of Castle Lochtwain? My initial reactions are that it's expensive for a single draw and we can draw much better and lose life much more efficiently, but the opportunity cost is low, so...

Discuss?

[Serenade]

If your opponents play more discard than average, it might help. Maybe if your build has more extra-combat-step tricks (especially with SoFaF), it would push G's power over the top.

[darrenhabib]

What do we think of Castle Lochtwain? My initial reactions are that it's expensive for a single draw and we can draw much better and lose life much more efficiently, but the opportunity cost is low, so...

Discuss?

I mean what a new powerful tool for any black deck. Really top tier card, get a copy for a number of decks. Just depends on the speed of your game plan. Probably borderline for any Greven deck given the draw potential. But I'm going to bring Castle Lochtwain into a number of my decks for sure.

[Epyon1201]

Anyone test Rite of the Raging Storm yet? It had legs in my Xenagos deck, I feel It could do work in this list too.

Tarnished Citadel is in theme, but im not sure how many "pain" lands we want in the deck as i'm still waiting on orders to come in before i can test it.

[xeroxedfool]

I haven't tested it myself but darren argues that it cant be used in the same turn its cast. I think that makes perfect sense. If you need a creature to sac it only functions in that way if you have it in play a turn cycle before Greven. It doesn't interact with Sneak Attack or Living Death. It seems bad to me but like I said, I've never played it.

[Epyon1201]

it cant be used in the same turn its cast.

Hrm, i feel like we are ignoring that it puts out 15 power a round that cant attack you on the first round. We might not be swinging, but we are argro and need all the damage that can be done done. Instant gratification is a huge plus, but to ignore it on that merit alone seems poor.

If we followed that logic we wouldnt even play greven because it dosent have haste.

With that said i'm very uncomfortable playing it along side ad nauseam and I believe ad nauseam is the better card if im forced to chose between the two. Not a fan of sneak attack, might try the Rite in place of it.

[darrenhabib]

it cant be used in the same turn its cast.

Hrm, i feel like we are ignoring that it puts out 15 power a round that cant attack you on the first round. We might not be swinging, but we are argro and need all the damage that can be done done. Instant gratification is a huge plus, but to ignore it on that merit alone seems poor.

If we followed that logic we wouldnt even play greven because it dosent have haste.

With that said i'm very uncomfortable playing it along side ad nauseam and I believe ad nauseam is the better card if im forced to chose between the two. Not a fan of sneak attack, might try the Rite in place of it.

It is a very powerful card, no doubt. Very popular as well, it's in at leat 30% of Greven decks scanned by EDHREC.

It's just not quite right for the build I have. I have a very set goal of drawing cards efficiently whenever I attack, and although Rite of the Raging Storm does represent continuous creature fodder for the rest of the game, it doesn't give you the all important draw straight away. This really is important, trust me once you play enough games you'll realize that taking a turn off is a line to losing rather than winning.

I'm not saying it's incorrect to play Rite of the Raging Storm, the more your deck is creature light the better cards like this become. 3Drinks is playing a slowed down version on purpose, to better grind people out of answers and creatures. If you made a deck that had only a few sources of continuous creature creation then you can free up slots for much different things.

If you have a build that has cards like Bloodghast and Rite of the Raging Storm, then you can look to maybe leverage off playing more tutor cards, so that you can play these as your sources of draw.
I have literally 25% creature, 1/4 of the deck. But you can make a build that doesn't look to charge out of the blocks, and just have more like 5 continuous creatures sources of more like small to medium value (like Squee, the Immortal) and then lean on having a few more tutor cards like, Beseech the Queen, to grab these resilient sources.
In that build Rite of the Raging Storm is probably going to be one of the best cards in the deck, and the likely target for a tutor.

[Epyon1201]

Has anyone had a chance to test Gamble over Scheming Symmetry? (for the budget alternative of Imperial Seal)

[3drinks]

Has anyone had a chance to test Gamble over Scheming Symmetry? (for the budget alternative of Imperial Seal)

I wanna say play grim tutour over both but since you don't have a seal, odds are you probably don't have a grim. I'd probably suggest Entomb first, since getting Anger in the yard makes for some very dangerous turns and WILL prevent opponents from doing their thing for fear of how much garbage you're going to devour when the shields are down.

[Scarprud]

And Immolating Souleater?

[darrenhabib]

And Immolating Souleater?

Wow yeah I didn't know this existed!! Perfect, nice work Sherlock Holmes.

Add

• Immolating Souleater

Remove

• Hex Parasite

[Magiqmaster]

Hi, I have read your primer and thanks to you, I now want to build this deck. However, I don't have the money to spend to acquire all the expensive cards. Would you have the time to propose a budget alternative, especially for the mana rocks?

On the other hand, have you thought about maybe using these:

Empyrial Plate
Eternal Thirst instead of Vampiric Link
cosmic larva

Thanks in advance!

[darrenhabib]

Hi, I have read your primer and thanks to you, I now want to build this deck. However, I don't have the money to spend to acquire all the expensive cards. Would you have the time to propose a budget alternative, especially for the mana rocks?

On the other hand, have you thought about maybe using these:

Empyrial Plate
Eternal Thirst instead of Vampiric Link
cosmic larva

Thanks in advance!

Try something like this:

Budget

• Wayfarer's Bauble
• Coldsteel Heart
• Fire Diamond
• Charcoal Diamond
• Mind Stone
• Walking Atlas
• Desperate Ritual
• Pyretic Ritual
• Seething Song
• Hex Parasite
• Cosmic Larva

Remove

• Chrome Mox
• Mox Diamond
• Mana Crypt
• Mana Vault
• Grim Monolith
• Imperial Seal
• Vampiric Tutor
• Demonic Tutor
• Toxic Deluge
• Ad Nauseam
• Sneak Attack

As far as the lands you could honestly just play all basics with a 50/50 split. Then I'd play these as well Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge.

The thing with Vampiric Link is that it's not actually lifelink, so you can double up on effects like Blessing of Belzenlok getting twice as much life.

Cosmic Larva seems great, add it to your deck for sure

[Magiqmaster]

Hey, thanks so much for the suggestions, much appreciated. Just curious, why aren't you using cards which give Infect to help get some additional ways to eliminate players? Is this because your meta frowns upon such a strategy?

On another note, why not use Warstorm Surge, is it too slow? What about Bolas's Citadel, I think it would be great in this deck.

Also, as I searched for card ideas I came upon Mischievous Poltergeist, did you know about this guy? I think its a card to consider since no mana is needed to activate it....

[darrenhabib]

Hey, thanks so much for the suggestions, much appreciated. Just curious, why aren't you using cards which give Infect to help get some additional ways to eliminate players? Is this because your meta frowns upon such a strategy?

On another note, why not use Warstorm Surge, is it too slow? What about Bolas's Citadel, I think it would be great in this deck.

Also, as I searched for card ideas I came upon Mischievous Poltergeist, did you know about this guy? I think its a card to consider since no mana is needed to activate it....

I find on average that Greven kills a player within 2 attacks anyway, so infect is only going to be helpful half of the time. If that makes sense you attack a player and do 10 damage and then let's say you draw an infect card. At that stage you might as well just do regular damage to that player.
Sure you can store up the infect for another player, but it's a card that honestly I'd just prefer to be something else proactive like a creature to insure draw. I feel like the pressure from regular damage is going to be enough. It's more of a case of "does opponent have a way to deal with Greven?" in the first place, rather than needing to reduce the attack by a single turn.
It's the same reason that I don't have double strike cards. What I do is let the engine of sacrificing creatures handle the kill component, rather than adding "more" to the kill process. All the "more" kill cards come in the form of card advantage like Plunge into Darkness, Ad Nauseam, Necropotence, Fire Covenant, Toxic Deluge, Phyrexian Purge or creatures that gain power for card draw, Immolating Souleater, Wall of Blood, etc.
The other thing is that you won't get lifelink or life gain from infect damage, which is really bad for your ability to remain in the game.
That's my thoughts on infect anyway.

Warstorm Surge is not needed, and as you say just a little too expensive.

Bolas's Citadel is a fun and cool card, but I do like to build around it more.
I guess the main thing is that if you look at the content of the deck, I specify that you normally have a set of things you do in a turn.
You wouldn't want to cast a bunch of the creatures in a single turn like Lightning Skelemental, Ball Lightning, Arc Runner, Impetuous Devils, Rotting Regisaur, Phyrexian Soulgorger, Volcano Hellion.
It's not incorrect to play Bolas's Citadel, but I feel you'd want a few supporting elements.

Mischievous Poltergeist is a cool one, can't say I've ever seen it. Actually a nice defense card, as well as a combo damage creator.
I feel like I'd play Unspeakable Symbol as another source of indefinite self damage, just because you can get the bonuses of either pumping up Greven or the creature you are sacrificing for additional draw. I put the highest priority on draw, and Mischievous Poltergeist can't rally give you card advantage.
If you wanted to play it over Hex Parasite that would be totally understandable.

[Magiqmaster]

Thanks so much for the insight, it has helped me a lot. Since your last comment, I have spent a lot of time trying to build a version of mine.

Can you take a few minutes and review my current deck version at https://deckbox.org/sets/2516513. I know some cards are not optimal, but I am trying to use what I own (I plan to add some of the high priced cards once the black friday specials come out next week). You will find in the sideboard some cards I am considering or that did not make the cut yet.

If you could point out the most obvious fails in my list (I know of a few, but curious to see what you think), I would really appreciate. I see that your deck packs quite a punch, thanks to the many high efficiency cards, especially with the very low mana cost of several key cards. I just don't think I can achieve such a masterpiece in the short term, but I would really like to refine mine into a version which can hold its own.

Thanks in advance!

[darrenhabib]

Thanks so much for the insight, it has helped me a lot. Since your last comment, I have spent a lot of time trying to build a version of mine.

Can you take a few minutes and review my current deck version at https://deckbox.org/sets/2516513. I know some cards are not optimal, but I am trying to use what I own (I plan to add some of the high priced cards once the black friday specials come out next week). You will find in the sideboard some cards I am considering or that did not make the cut yet.

If you could point out the most obvious fails in my list (I know of a few, but curious to see what you think), I would really appreciate. I see that your deck packs quite a punch, thanks to the many high efficiency cards, especially with the very low mana cost of several key cards. I just don't think I can achieve such a masterpiece in the short term, but I would really like to refine mine into a version which can hold its own.

Thanks in advance!

Looking good. I mean it's pretty close to my list, you are just using some different creatures but they are basically going to give you the same result.

From the maybe board try really hard to get Fire Covenant. Then Plunge into Darkness.
If you can get Fury of the Horde over Relentless Assault it makes a huge difference.

I don't like Armillary Sphere. Try and replace with Rakdos Signet.

Haunted Crossroads seems like overkill (and no actual card advantage) with so many other graveyard cards with Chainer, Nightmare Adept, Chainer, Dementia Master, Whip of Erebos, Phyrexian Reclamation.

I'm personally not sold on Soul's Fire as a very good card. The thing is that it doesn't do "commander damage", so hitting an opponent for 20 direct damage say, isn't even that good. Then complete overkill if using it to destroy a creature. I'd personally try Chandra's Ignition as a higher upside effect for this sort of card.

I'd like to see Temple of the False God replaced with Tectonic Edge.
Lavaclaw Reaches is a slight upgrade over any of your tapped dual lands.


That Boon of Erebos is a nice one, haven't seen that before. Might try and fit it into my list

[Magiqmaster]

Hi Darren,

Once again many thanks for the input, I have since refined the deck and playtested it. So far, Greven can either charge out like a madman, which is great, or durdles for a while trying to get some traction. I noted that this is often due to the lack of fast mana, or sometimes because I can't give him haste. Other times, the field gets clogged with creatures so I can't get through easily when I can't provide evasion. Finally, I have the impression that the deck lacks creature removal. On this last point, yours seems rather light, do you find that you have enough to handle most games succesfully?

I am planning to add some pricier cards this Friday, which ones would you highly recommend? I am thinking about:

Hall of the Bandit Lord
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Mana Vault

I also think I need some tutors, but yours are so expensive, and the cheaper versions don't seem to be effective enough to make the cut.

Anyhow, if you can shed further insight, I really want to make the deck work!

Thanks again for your time

[3drinks]

Good lord, my recent forays into white border deck building are making me even consider this deck, since I have all the BR cards anyway. Something about the appeal of the truly "finished deck"...

[darrenhabib]

Hi Darren,

Once again many thanks for the input, I have since refined the deck and playtested it. So far, Greven can either charge out like a madman, which is great, or durdles for a while trying to get some traction. I noted that this is often due to the lack of fast mana, or sometimes because I can't give him haste. Other times, the field gets clogged with creatures so I can't get through easily when I can't provide evasion. Finally, I have the impression that the deck lacks creature removal. On this last point, yours seems rather light, do you find that you have enough to handle most games succesfully?

I am planning to add some pricier cards this Friday, which ones would you highly recommend? I am thinking about:

Hall of the Bandit Lord
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Mana Vault

I also think I need some tutors, but yours are so expensive, and the cheaper versions don't seem to be effective enough to make the cut.

Anyhow, if you can shed further insight, I really want to make the deck work!

Thanks again for your time

You are right it's either like a bull out of the blocks, or you have to find a more patient period. By patient I mean that you've been dealt with and it's better to wait for a haste element or whatever before you try to commit again.
If you get to get one big card draw then obviously this can set you up by drawing that mass creature removal spell, etc.

So actually I surprisingly don't have many games where the board is clogged. I seem to find a weak opponent and this allows me to get the big draw in further answers (for a clogged board).
But I do run those tutors as you said (Vamp, Demonic, Imperial) which gives me literally 3 more creature board wipes (or whatever) in the deck.

I think some adjustment will need to be done for the tempo of your deck by the sounds of things. Running a turn or two slower, due to mana ramp is a major factor. You will more likely run into a more clogged board by default of this.
Plus not running the tutors will mean that you are far more at the mercy of drawing cards that can get you out of that situation.

I agree the tempo of how you cast cards isn't really going to work if you are trying to use Diabolic Tutor at four mana. It just doesn't leave you room for anything else. You could try Beseech the Queen and Dark Petition as potential tutors, hopefully they end up being "3 mana" tutors.

Maybe Hoarding Dragon is as a way to get Swiftfoot Boots, Vorrac Battlehorns, Whispersilk Cloak for a clogged board? Two for one in that it's a creature to sacrifice and gets you important equipment. Just a suggestion, not sure if it's correct. But you could try it over one of the other creatures.

Buy a Rakdos Signet as you'll always have a use for it in the future.

Flametongue Kavu helps with removing a creature, which can catch an opponent off guard when they hold up two creatures for blocking.

Just another thing is that you have quite few advantages from graveyard with Chainer, Dementia Master, Chainer, Nightmare Adept, Phyrexian Reclamation. So you could look to use Faithless Looting as a way to smooth out your draws and it's not the worse having to discard cards as you can get advantages.
You can also look for more cheap card draw to smooth out draws in the face of not having tutors. Night's Whisper being the best candidate.
Further little advantages maybe with a less all-or-nothing approach is to smooth your draws with further cards like; Dismissive Pyromancer, Merchant of the Vale, Keldon Raider, Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion, Rix Maadi Reveler, Cavalier of Flame, Anje's Ravager, Seasoned Pyromancer, Rowdy Crew.
Prophetic Ravings is an interesting one as it can give Greven haste, but if you had enough creatures that are fine to remain on battlefield (i.e. too many of them have sacrifice at end of turn stipulations) then it's an option.
So you could change the tempo of the deck a little bit to deploy a few less "all-in" creatures, with those that play to a longer game and help you sculpt your hand more.

If you are looking for some more creature removal on a budget then Bontu's Last Reckoning and Last One Standing I think are the best for casting cost (and money).

One last thing, the tapped lands in Akoum Refuge, Bloodfell Caves, Rakdos Guildgate are just enough off tempo that I'd prefer to get Foreboding Ruins, Exotic Orchard, Smoldering Marsh.
Just a rule of thumb for Magic is that any money you invest into any type of multicolored lands, you will always get a return of investment as the prices only ever go up. It hasn't changed in 25 years and it never will. Surprisingly (sarcasm) it turns out the dual lands of any kind are always in demand.

[Magiqmaster]

Wow, once again thanks so much for all the help!!! I feel almost uncomfortable for all the time you have spent so far ....

FYI, my LGS has finally lowered their prices so I placed an order this morning. I have decided to acquire some of the more expensive cards (I have splurged quite a bit, by selecting those which will retain their value and their overall greatness for a variety of potential future decks). Let me know what you think about my latest iteration, your criticism is always welcome! You will notice that my deck is becoming very similar to yours, hope you don't mind...

I would also appreciate (sorry if I keep asking but hey, you've been so helpful) if you can give a few pointers about which cards you usually go for when you tutor stuff. I know this is situational depending on the current game status, but I assume that after all your play experience, a certain pattern has emerged. Also some strategy or tips that don't already appear in your primer which could help me get confortable piloting the deck.

So that's it, looking forward to hear again from you!

Cheers

[darrenhabib]

Wow, once again thanks so much for all the help!!! I feel almost uncomfortable for all the time you have spent so far ....

FYI, my LGS has finally lowered their prices so I placed an order this morning. I have decided to acquire some of the more expensive cards (I have splurged quite a bit, by selecting those which will retain their value and their overall greatness for a variety of potential future decks). Let me know what you think about my latest iteration, your criticism is always welcome! You will notice that my deck is becoming very similar to yours, hope you don't mind...

I would also appreciate (sorry if I keep asking but hey, you've been so helpful) if you can give a few pointers about which cards you usually go for when you tutor stuff. I know this is situational depending on the current game status, but I assume that after all your play experience, a certain pattern has emerged. Also some strategy or tips that don't already appear in your primer which could help me get confortable piloting the deck.

So that's it, looking forward to hear again from you!

Cheers

I enjoy figuring out cards for other people, I'm constantly helping fine tune my friends decks, so no problem at all.

OK, so you are getting the good stuff Once again you'll always get the return on investment on in demand cards like Chrome Mox, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault. You can slot these into literally any deck you make in the future.
Same with the Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor, they are going to be in any black deck you make.
Sure more reprints will happen with cards like these, but what people have to understand is that the player base does grow by about a million every two years. Think about that. That's two million more people wanting a lot of the same cards as you. So it's always a case of "supply and demand" and demand will always outgrow supply on these types of cards.

The tutor question is a good one. I'll give you some general rules of thumb.

One in your opening hand is often going to get you a Mana Crypt/Sol Ring.
Although a second turn tutor could easily be used to get a third turn Necropotence.

If you have Greven online and can attack?
Do you want to kill a player that turn (because they are likely to take over the game)? Depending on mana available, but an optimal play would be to get Plunge into Darkness and do it for the full amount of damage in order to kill the player. You are also very likely to draw an instant life gain card off the Plunge into Darkness so stay on neutral life loss.

Another example is let's say you have enough mana to cast a creature (to sac to Greven) and enough for Scheming Symmetry/Vampiric Tutor.
If you have an onboard way to deal indefinite life loss (Wall of Blood, Moltensteel Dragon, Necropotence, Immolating Souleater) then chances are I'm going to get a Blessing of Belzenlok to gain the life back. If you have more mana to spare then Essence Harvest would be a slightly better option.

Now there are going to be lots of games where you do tutor for Phyrexian Purge or Fire Covenant as they are just such aces in the hole when it comes to getting ahead.

In games where I've been afforded more of a setup period, there are basically two main cards that I like to get for more returns in the long run. Those are Sneak Attack and Whip of Erebos. You can really get mileage out of these cards, so if you've been given a bit of breathing room then I'll often get either of these two. Whip if I've already got creatures in the graveyard. Sneak just frees up so much mana in the long run, which lets you to setup the rest of your board so much more easily.

Maybe you are really needing evasion? If appropriate opponents have Swamps in play, then I'd probably get Filth as you can cast and get sac/draw from it and then get the evasion.
Otherwise if opponents don't have black/artifact then Shizo, Death's Storehouse is a nice option (especially if you don't have a land drop for the turn anyway).
Silent Arbiter is both defensive as well as offensive, so this is realistically the best card in the deck to stick for evasion.

You will get games where you attack with Greven and draw into a tutor. Say it's the Demonic Tutor and you have exactly enough to cast it second main phase with say one mana spare (at least). This is one of those situations where you've got an engine going so are incentivized to protect it. This is where I might get a Bolt Bend/Kaya's Ghostform/Boon of Erebos type card to protect it.

The other one to look out for post combat is do you have a couple of red cards in hand? If so and Greven threatens lethal, then you can get Fury of the Horde.

Nothing is as clear cut as my suggestions are, you will find yourself thinking hard about board states, but these are definitely play patterns that I look out for when it comes to the tutors.

[Magiqmaster]

Great, thanks a million for the input! I will test the deck tomorrow and keep in mind your suggestions, I will give you a heads up on Friday about it's performance.

I just can't wait, I should have a good game no mather what happens, with all these new shiny toys.... Woot!