Greven, Predator Captain - No Pain No Gain

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Image
Decklist

Life-gain

Mass creature removal

Reanimation

Instant removal

Instant mana

Equipment

Sorcery steal/removal

Approximate Total Cost:



I have to admit a lot of this deck goes against what I normally play and even what I'd determine as good cards. Rakdos? Literally in hundreds of commander decks I've never built a Rakdos commander before. Not a fan of the color-pie or legendary line-up huh?
Turning creatures sideways? For casual play exclusively. Gaining life? Jank decks only apply.

However I've dipped my feet into the colors of pain and themes that normally I wouldn't call good. But Greven changes all that. He makes these things not only great, but as brutal as the reputation that proceeds him.

There really is an exceptional Vorthos flavor to this commander. Sacrificing creatures to gain power both figuratively (draw) and literally (stats) and expressing his rage through feeding off pain (life loss), this card has a lot of his story imprinted in this card.

What does Greven do?
Rage is the only freedom left to me.

"Image"
Master of draw
The idea is pretty simple. Use mana efficient creatures that have large power and hopefully low toughness to sacrifice to draw lots of cards. Although there is a mix that have large toughness as well so you can line up lethal or a large chunk of commander damage on opponents.

You can easily be drawing between 5-8 cards off an attack, making Greven, Predator Captain a potentially incredible card drawing machine.

The King of commander damage
I have played decks designed around killing opponents with commander damage in the past. However I would not call myself an enthusiast as often it's a hard strategy to pull off.
I've used Godo, Bandit Warlord (although that was more combo build), Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker with heavy disruption, and my friends decks with Rafiq of the Many and Uril, the Miststalker. I've also got a lot of decks where the commanders can deal lethal over the course of a few turns, but the decks are not exactly designed to win this way like Zacama, Primal Calamity and Sisay, Weathlight Captain.
Now they've all been fine, they have their strengths and weaknesses, but at the end of the day they don't provide card advantages. They simply are able to apply pressure.
Greven on the other hand does both. He gives you card advantage and he applies pressure..enormous pressure. So much in fact that I seriously doubt there is a commander who can get up to the same lethal damage consistently so quickly*.
And this is what separates him from pack and why the more I play him, the more it solidifies that he is the real deal when it comes to powerful commander play.
*
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There are examples of ridiculous plays like Okaun, Eye of Chaos attacking me for 12,288. But in general most commanders need a number of support cards in order to pump them up, and this usually takes a bit of time.
Greven takes very little setup to do this.
Dealing damage to yourself, but more importantly your opponents.
With an emphasis on cards that can deal enough damage to yourself to get Greven to deal the 21 needed for commander lethal damage, there are plays and cards that have a focus on consistently enabling this.

There are a number of creatures that you can use life loss for gains in power.
Immolating Souleater and Moltensteel Dragon can be used to both draw for the increased power and the life loss you use with using {rp}.
Let's say you are on 30 life. You can cast Moltensteel Dragon for 4 and 4 life.
You can use 20 life to give Moltensteel Dragon +10/+0. When you sacrifice it to Greven, Predator Captain, he will get +28/+0 and you draw 14 cards.
Wall of Blood can be used in exactly the same way, using your life total to draw a lot cards and power up Greven.

Volcano Hellion also allows you to spend as much life loss as you want, it can clear the way for Greven by removing a block (or simply the best opponent creature on the board) and draw you 6 cards when you sacrifice it to Greven as you won't be paying the echo.

Life-gain
Fear rules those weak enough to accept it.

The reason there is so much lifelink or life gain in the deck is to gain back life loss straight away during combat.
There are a number of instant cards that can do this with Alchemist's Gift, Blessing of Belzenlok, Cruel Feeding, Rush of Vitality. With so many in the deck, you have a really good shot at drawing one with Greven, Predator Captain meaning you don't necessary need one in hand when going for a big play.

Gaining life is super important in this deck as you are constantly taking damage from Greven, Predator Captain ability, while also playing cards that are specifically designed to lose you life.

If you imagine sacrificing Phyrexian Soulgorger to give Greven, Predator Captain a +8/+0, he will be a 13/5 (at the least). You lose 8 life but then gain 13 with the lifelink, putting you on a net advantage for the turn.

Any life loss will be gained back with lifelink so you can use Necropotence to actually control the amount of damage that Greven can deliver while also drawing cards at end of turn. Same with

With Ad Nauseam and Plunge into Darkness you can almost certainly draw into one of your instant lifelink cards so can aim for lethal damage.

Essence Harvest can be used as a secondary spell to lifelink to deal and gain even more damage and life for the turn.

Evasion
The scourge of Skyshroud is airborne once more.

Getting in commander damage is essential to winning and with Greven menance it's actually way more difficult for your opponents to line up blocking that isn't going to blow them out constantly, especially with your own removal. However there are some further ways to get evasion.

Shizo, Death's Storehouse can give him fear.

Filth can be discarded or sacrificed to Greven so that you can get evasion with him, which is really important down the stretch. The popular Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth will help with this.

Silent Arbiter combined with Greven menace means that he is unblockable.

Key to the City can make Greven unblockable and there is a reanimation theme, so you can discard creatures to bring back with mana efficient cards.

Protecting Greven and Reanimation
The gifts of Phyrexian enhancements to muscle mass and fighting skills.

There is a lot of ways to protect Greven from removal, and a lot of them will be unexpected for opponents, giving you an advantage.
Imp's Mischief, Rush of Vitality, Bolt Bend, Deflecting Swat are all instant speed ways to protect Greven from a lot of targeted spells and they all cost one mana or less. This is super important as you'll often be tapping low for your creature fodder and progressing your mana.

There is also reanimation cards in Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Necromancy, Chainer, Nightmare Adept. Living Death which have duel purposes in the deck.
They can get back creatures you've sacrificed or discarded as ways to get more sacrifice fodder for cheap.
But they are also a great mana efficient ways to bring back Greven if opponents are killing him. In this way you have a lot of insurance to make sure you constantly can get Greven online even in the face of removal.

Generating mana
The flowstone seemed for a moment to assume Greven's rage.

With drawing so many cards, you want to generate large amounts of mana or cheat ways to "cast cards so that you are not just discarding to hand size every turn. Sneak Attack is perfect for doing this, as you are sacrificing to Greven anyway so don't care about the creature sticking around.

Treasonous Ogre can convert your life total to make mana, and with all the life gain tricks it's possible to get enough mana via paying life to pay for spells. You can also use it to lose life for Greven power bonus.

The deck has other mana producing things like artifact mana and "rituals", that is instants or sorcery that specifically put more mana into your pool than the spells cost.

Additional combat
As Gerrard and Greven neared each other, the moggs caught between them realized they should flee.

"Image"
There are a couple of cards that allow you to have additional attacks. You'll be stacking the power gain on Greven each attack, so if you can imagine if you sacrifice a couple of creature and loss life, he could easily be attacking for a commander damage 21 lethal.

Combat Celebrant can be used to get an additional attack and there is plenty of ways to get haste in the deck, so you can catch opponents off guard with double Greven pressure. Do not be afraid to sacrifice the Combat Celebrant to Greven to draw cards as the exert will delay using it again for a while anyway.


Haste
Such rage. It is Greven's mind manifest.

Getting value from Greven is important so haste can be found with Anger, Hall of the Bandit Lord, Generator Servant, Tentative Connection, Chainer, Nightmare Adept.
It's pretty easy to discard the Anger to hand size setting you up for the rest of the game, or you can just play and sacrifice it.

Tentative Connection is normally used to steal an opponents creature, but in a pinch you can target Greven for the haste element.

It's nice to give Combat Celebrant haste as you can catch opponents off guard with a potent additional attack.

Mass creature removal
I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry.

Fire Covenant and Toxic Deluge are perfect as they are mana efficient, you can control how much damage they are doing, and then you can get the potential bonus of giving Greven more power.

Same with Phyrexian Purge using the life loss to clear the path for Greven while providing the potential for lethal attacks.



Playing the Deck
The match between Tahngarth and Greven was close only in the mind of the minotaur.
Who to attack?
So I just play out Greven and turn him sideways right? Well yes, but one of the strengths of the deck and indeed one of the complexities is actually figuring out which opponent to pressure first.

"Image"
The deck consistently can kill an opponent within a two turn window and even one shot opponents. So often you've got this decision and even very early on as playing out Greven on turn three is likely. Some games this isn't enough turns to establish which opponent is going to be the most threatening.
But certainly in games where a person has played a first turn Sol Ring or more, it can be "target acquired".
In metas where you know opponents decks strengths and weaknesses, you can really dictate how the game goes by just taking out the player that is looking to get advantages by playing a self contained deck. That is one that ignores opponents for the most part, and plays lots of cards that can accelerate their own resources.
Decks that don't play out creatures and just look to ramp mana and draw, can be taken out easily. Wait for the salt as they proclaim unfair targeting, as they are "not doing anything". Remember to reply, "I know that's why I killed you, you need to play blockers".

Now if you choose a certain player to attack early, should you always follow that up by attacking the same player the next turn? More often than not yes, but sometimes you will find that the shift of power changes, and don't be afraid to leave a player alive to then refocus on a new target.
In this respect Greven is a great commander for game politics.
You can really balance out a table by killing the player who has the most explosive deck by taking them out before they can get their feet under them.
You then get the second most threatening player and then the third, etc. You can reward the jank player by being the last to be killed. You're welcome.

Please don't be distracted by playing into your own salty moves. Just because somebody attacks you or plays removal on you, doesn't mean that they then become the target for Greven's attacks. Stay the course and kill the correct threatening player.
Probably this is where I win the most games. I establish good threat assessment based on opposing decks overall power levels.
This also surprises players, as they expect retaliation (from removal or attacking you) and the player who does nothing to you feels a sense of security in not being targeted for attacks.
The player who expects to be attacked might hold up mana for removal (on Greven), where the player who is simply ramping and/or drawing is tapping out.
This does two things. It makes the player who holds up mana have a slightly less effective turn round, although they can still kill Greven, but a smart player will figure out that the targeted player (for the attack) is the one that needs to figure out an answer and that they simply can't spend their time setting up greedily.
More importantly however you show the table that you are basing your decisions on threat assessment, and this tends to make the rest of the table back off a bit and leave you to deal with "Mr or Ms cEDH".

How do game turns play out?
It is a fairly simple overall game plan however. You want to be casting out Greven quickly. Followed up by a creature that you can sacrifice to get draw. Once this happens you can pretty much have a collection of cards that you can plan for much of the game.
Drawing 3-8 cards easily means that you have options for the next series of turns. Lining up a lethal attack or making sure Greven is protected or just simply getting a mana base more setup so that you can pay for commander tax or other cards are all likely scenarios.

A very usual sequence is you cast a creature to sacrifice, attack with Greven and then you are usually hoping for one of the life-gain instant cards during the sacrifice draw. These are between one to two mana each.
With these in mind it's fair to almost always want to allocate 5 mana to this plan during those early(ish) turns. It's not necessary to cast life-gain on the first attack as your life total is still high that you can burn through it.
But on the second attack you can often setup a lethal attack by using life-loss for resources gains and so if Greven is attacking for 21 damage (or the difference you need to kill that player) then you want to be gaining that life back.

So if you're spending 5 mana a turn on this, then how much mana do you have post-combat? Not that much normally, and this is OK.
You really want enough to have mana for a protection spell Imp's Mischief, Bolt Bend.

Normal mid-game sequencing.
  1. Pre-combat play out mana efficient creature to sacrifice to Greven. 2-4 mana.
  2. During combat hopefully draw into life-gain instant spell to cast. 1-2 mana.
  3. Post-combat play artifact mana and leave enough mana to cast Bolt Bend, Imp's Mischief, Rush of Vitality.
I almost never play another creature post-combat, unless blocking is required, as you just expose yourself to mass creature removal more. Even when the game has gone longer and you have quite a bit of mana post-combat, it's tempting to play out your hand. However I've always regretted doing this when playing into a board wipe.

Because of Greven menace it's much harder for your opponents to attack you with their own creatures. They need to leave back blockers, and even leaving two blockers back is risky for them as you do have removal. The further the game goes on, the more opponent's realize that attacking you isn't the best plan. So in this respect needing to cast creatures for blocking your own life total isn't actually as necessary as you first might assume.

The better creatures to play post-combat are Anger, Filth, Silent Arbiter if requiring blockers. Although often I am just discarding Anger and Filth due to hand size.

Combat Celebrant is another creature that you might cast post-combat to ensure you can attack with it in the following turn. Although with so much haste in the deck, you can wait a lot of games to cast it pre-combat.

The best of the rest
There are other cards in the deck. When do you cast a Whip of Erebos to get value for example?
Just because of their casting cost, they do require normally that you are further into the game. If you've got 8 mana to cast Whip of Erebos and activate it to get a creature from your graveyard pre-combat then this is going to be a solid play.

Should you tap out to cast Greven even when you have protection in hand?
This does come up. You might have 7 mana say to re-cast Greven after removal and you have something like Imp's Mischief in hand. Do you wait a turn to protect Greven or just jam him and hope?
Without doing too much of a cop out answer of "read the game" for such decisions, the honest truth is that I jam him most times.
The deck does have a lot of artifact mana, so if he gets removed and I have to spend a turn setting up more mana and other plays then sure it's not ideal but you're likely to be only one turn behind where you would have been if you forgone an additional turn to have protection up as well.
I find it's better to put opponents to the test, as you can get so much further into your game plan by not taking a turn off. Don't get me wrong I've had plenty of regrets doing this, but I'm all about statistics and setting yourself up for more winning plays by taking higher risks. I feel that I win more games because of this.

When to cast mass creature removal?
Your mass creature removal can become the more impactful cards as the game goes on, and finding the right time to cast them is super important.
Are you using them for clearing a path for Greven early on? Or are you waiting until there is more creatures on the board to get value?
We have Fire Covenant, Toxic Deluge, Phyrexian Purge, and they all are capable of getting Greven up to 21 commander damage in a single turn.
I find that I'm never really waiting that long to cast them if I have them. You can kill a player that you fear the most, while also killing off enough creatures that you don't fear the swing back from other players.
One thing to remember is that with Greven menace, if you have a player who you want to kill, you just make sure that you kill enough so that they can't double block. This can make a big difference to the math.
Remember if you keep the card draw flowing with Greven, then you are likely to draw into another creature removal spell down the not too distant line, so hording them for advantage isn't the best plan.

Other long term plans that may come into effect is Living Death. I've had one of these in hand or a tutor like Demonic Tutor to get it, and sent Greven to the graveyard upon removal with this in mind. The same with Reanimate in hand, often I'll let Greven go to the graveyard as the commander tax has crept up to uncastable amounts in the following turns.
It's slightly risky in the face of a counterspell, but I probably not going to do this if I know I'm up against a heavy counterspell deck as it'll leave Greven in the graveyard rather than the commander zone.

What to get with your tutors?
There are only 4 tutors in the deck with Gamble, Entomb, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor so it's not like you are constantly having to think about this.
If you can't afford Imperial Seal (who can?) then Scheming Symmetry is fine substitute.
Obviously an opening hand one can be invested into a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring. By the way you've never played a deck where you are hoping to lose the Mana Crypt coin flip and your opponents are hoping that you win it..true story. I have had games where I needed to lose the flip in order to get in lethal damage and opponents have been able to wipe the sweat off their brow because of a "lucky" coin flip.
There are a lot of times where an Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor will get me an instant life-gain card with Blessing of Belzenlok, Cruel Feeding, Rush of Vitality, Grotesque Mutation, so that you are gaining the massive life loss back straight away.

In games where there is stability, my sort of key tech cards are Sneak Attack or Necropotence depending on what might be better at the time.

Whip of Erebos is also a great card once you have mana to sink into it's ability to put creatures into play and get the lifelink permanently.

Of course there are games where you have to search immediately for mass creature removal in order to stay in the game or win.

How much mana do you need throughout the game?
When I first constructed a build I was imagining because you are potentially drawing 5-8 (even easily up to 20 sometimes) each turn, that you'd want to scale the deck up by being able to cast multiple cards each turn, otherwise what's the point of so much draw right?
I had cards that reflected this with Inner Fire, Mana Geyser, Seething Song. However it turns out that the same play pattern that I set out early above, still works just as successfully late game. Casting more and more spells each turn just isn't necessary. So the draw is more like insurance. Insurance to have land drops. Insurance to have your pick of options for creatures to sacrifice to boost Greven power and provide more draw. Insurance for protection for Greven. Insurance to make sure Greven connects to opponents life totals.
Often you are discarding a lot of cards due to hand size. And this is fine. Trust me when you are discarding cards because you have a selection to choose from, you are a favorite to win that game, and this is where I find myself a lot of the time.
There is Reliquary Tower in the deck that will allow you to keep all your cards, so this can be nice.
However the idea of ramping the deck up I found was not the way to go. As I mentioned casting multiple creatures post-combat isn't that great a play.
Don't get me wrong it's nice to get more and more mana available to you each turn, but I really have kept it to the mana rocks for this as they provide the best gains throughout the game, including at the very start when you want to get Greven out early if possible.

Use protection at ALL times kids!!
I've already outlined what you should do if you don't have Greven in play yet, and that is that you can tap out to speed the game up.

But don't be tempted to tap out to get all your artifact mana or other spells into play if you have a protection spell in hand and already have Greven in play.
This does come up often. Imagine you have a hand size of 11 cards post-combat. Now you could cast say two artifact mana spells like Rakdos Signet and Grim Monolith, but it leaves you tapped out (in this case just colorless mana), and you have a spell like Imp's Mischief in hand.
What often happens is that because you have to discard down to 7 cards, the temptation to cast out as many cards as you can AND get your mana base more setup is tempting...very tempting..like BIG RED CANDY like button tempting.
But the better play is to see if you can just cast a single mana rock if it enables you to leave up 1b for the Imp's Mischief and do the disciplined thing of having to discard really good cards. In this case probably 3 good cards and it might be that you even discard the artifact mana that you could of had the chance to cast that turn, which seems very counter-intuitive.
But stay the course and protect Greven if you can. Even if the artifact mana would help you re-cast Greven so that you only take one turn off if he got removed, that is a turn off for your opponents when he can apply ungodly amounts of pressure instead.
I've done the "greedy" play in the past of tapping out to get more cards into play and always regretted it.

Last edited by darrenhabib 2 months ago, edited 134 times in total.

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TearsOfTomorrow
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Post by TearsOfTomorrow » 4 years ago

Wouldn't you want to sac creatures with exactly 2 toughness, so as to get Greven that magical 7 power for commander damage?

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

TearsOfTomorrow wrote:
4 years ago
Wouldn't you want to sac creatures with exactly 2 toughness, so as to get Greven that magical 7 power for commander damage?
I mean there are a lot of ways to lose life during the turn.

For example the fetchlands will all do a point of damage, Ancient Tomb as well. But 7 damage every time over the course of 3 attacks isn't the most likely.

Let's say it's Rotting Regisaur, Ball Lightning, Inferno Hellion. That's attacks for 13+6+8=27.

If that makes sense the only time it would be valid if it was exactly Lightning Skelemental, Ball Lightning, Arc Runner or Impetuous Devils that you sacrificed with over 3 turns. And even then it's almost impossible not to draw into further life loss cards when drawing 17 cards.

But maybe adding some more pain lands is that way to go. I should have Sulfurous Springs, City of Brass, Mana Confluence as well. There are more, but I'd be happy leaving it at that.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Copying a reply I made from another thread because it's relevant here i believe.
3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Being the player that churns through his own life crazy fast, it's almost like Greven was tailour made for me. In the two hours I researched and discussed this card yesterday, I came to the conclusion of;

- A lot of the synergies found in Darien, King of Kjeldor can be used here. But more, because lifeloss also works.
- Tarnished Citadel is pretty good here, and on a lesser scale City of Brass & Mana Confluence
- Dark Confidant is an obvious include.
- Pestilence effects are extra spicy, and you have three of them (Pyrohemia & Withering Wisps being the other two).
- Repercussion will further combine here since the aforementioned pestilence effects are so great. Earthquake effects are similarly very strong.
- Unspeakable Symbol is really lethal.
- Moonlight Bargain is looking extra smexy here <3.
- Boseiju, Who Shelters All is great, but the best is gonna be Hall of the Bandit Lord.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Alright got some games in with this guy and some immediate things to note. Attacking with him isn't the easiest thing to do due to being a magnet for removal, so I've taken out heaps of the additional combat cards.

I found that often I need some way to push an attack through opponents who all have blockers who can block to kill Greven with only 5 toughness. So I added in Silent Arbiter as a way to prevent any blocking with his menace, and protects your life total as you always eat through your life during a game.

Last edited by darrenhabib 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
Alright got some games in with this guy and some immediate things to note. Attacking with him isn't the easiest thing to do due to being a magnet for removal, so I've taken out heaps of the additional combat cards.

I found that often I need some way to push an attack through opponents who all have blockers who can block to kill Greven with only 5 toughness. So I added in Silent Arbiter as a way to prevent any blocking with his menace, and protects your life total as you always eat through your life during a game.

All in all the Greven is a pretty casual commander. A bit disappointing as far as gameplay, you can do busted stuff, but don't look to complete on any serious level. Realistically for "turn creature sideways" only metas.
I'll be picking up this mantle sooner than later as I think there's more to the deck than this. It's also a bit more interesting I think than zenith Kaalia, so it's got my interest there too. In my head, I like where it's at.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

I've had three games stop me dead with Maze of Ith. Getting the lifelink is super important and this card just shuts you off.
Strip Mine and Wasteland as an additional answer besides Lightning Greaves and Swiftfire Boots.

I've also found the Aetherflux Reservoir to be pretty mediocre, just not enough big storm turns in the deck.
Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion is also not where you want to be at.
Rakdos, Lord of Riots also is just a bit too hard to get value from.

So just decided to go with boring old consistent tutors to get me cards when opponents have me locked out of something or I need evasion, etc, etc.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Since you need to connect in relative peace, I reckon Defense Grid might ne in order?

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Since you need to connect in relative peace, I reckon Defense Grid might ne in order?
Yeah that's a good idea. The deck has lots of haste, so you can catch people out if they only have limited mana untapped.
Ivory Tower has been mediocre so easy swap.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Y'know, while these effects typically have very diminishing returns in the format, I bet you can justify a couple of fling effects to finish people off. That could lead to some crazy crazy swings...

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Y'know, while these effects typically have very diminishing returns in the format, I bet you can justify a couple of fling effects to finish people off. That could lead to some crazy crazy swings...
I do have Rite of Consumption and Essence Harvest and they are really key to surviving and dealing lethal blows.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
4 years ago
3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
Y'know, while these effects typically have very diminishing returns in the format, I bet you can justify a couple of fling effects to finish people off. That could lead to some crazy crazy swings...
I do have Rite of Consumption and Essence Harvest and they are really key to surviving and dealing lethal blows.
I'd like something I can "balloon up" and respond with, hence the instant speed. But, yes, those will do quite nicely. Likely better despite the speed, sure. Can't have my cake and eat it too after all.

Since you're wanting a Basilisk Collar anyway, what is your thoughts on Goblin Sharpshooter? And, similarly, Cunning Sparkmage?

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3drinks
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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

FWIW, i brewed up an initial list comprised mostly of synergies. It's five cards over, but I think together we can brew this and yours into something respectable.
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Planeswalker (1)

Approximate Total Cost:

A few notable interactions;
Greven forcefully chucking Squee off the Predator to feed his anger and then the goblin comes back to do it again.
Batterskull tokens feeding Greven for 4, then bouncing and recasting.
Bacon God putting a new body on the board, letting Greven feast on said bacon and going third from the top, then drawing six to get the pig back in hand...

I also heavily slanted the snow mana base towards b to make use of withering wisps, since pestilence effects are quite strong here. Building in such a way enabled the use of a "2c moon" strat coupled with smart fetching (B fetches get swamps, off-B fetches get duals or, as needed, mountains).

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
FWIW, i brewed up an initial list comprised mostly of synergies. It's five cards over, but I think together we can brew this and yours into something respectable.
The thing to learn is that losing life is nooooo problem. Dying however is easy. So I think the number one mistake of people branching into Greven is that they focus on "how to lose life?". The important question you really need to ask is "how do I gain life?". And this is the key to a good game normally.
The other thing is you can never have enough mana..ever.

I swear by some cards.. These are MUSTS!!!Sneak Attack, Silent Arbiter, Treasonous Ogre

I had enormous success with Disciple of Bolas, Malignus, Fury of the Horde.

Malignus has won me a lot of games. It's tricky to line up a Greven sacrifice without killing yourself, but if you do and you have the lifelink then drawing 20 cards is hard to beat.
I've used Sneak Attack with Malignus and then Sneak Attack in Disciple of Bolas for drawing 15 cards type thing.


What I like from your list the most is;
Blood Moon, Dockside Extortionist, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Noxious Gearhulk, Vindictive Lich, Dismember, Gamble, Grim Tutor, Phyrexian Purge.

I could see a Blood Moon version that uses Pyrohemia to clear the board of mana dorks, and you could back this up with Vandalblast and even Shatterstorm to lock some decks out.

We are playing different versions, my creature base is a bit more middle ground. Where as yours are like 5-6 mana range. Which will mean often your play for the turn is cast 6 mana creature, and then attack with Greven and sacrifice it for the draw, and then you'll be out of mana.
So it's just something to watch out for. Honestly sometimes my best top deck has been a Lupine Prototype. Like I will vouch for mana efficient creatures for sure.
There is no point drawing a bunch of cards if you can't deploy them.

But I want you to play and figure out what did and didn't work for you and see where a nice balance lies


I found Mana Geyser to be not the best as it has stipulations, but mainly because it only provides r and often you don't get to cast your hand how you want and excess red is left unspent, but you still have tons of black cards in hand.
Same could be said for Innerfire, but at least you get to control it and it costs less.

Loxodon Warhammer is just too slow to be useful most games. Protection and keeping Greven alive is more important than trample.

Cryptborn Horror is not good for pre-combat creature fodder, so didn't work out that well.


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Post by sweetwaterbob » 4 years ago

Have you looked at Wall of Blood?

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

sweetwaterbob wrote:
4 years ago
Have you looked at Wall of Blood?
Yes, it's in the deck and is probably the best creature fodder in the deck when you have lifelink with Greven.
I've spend 30 life on it one game (literally going down to 1 life on purpose), to then cast Disciple of Bolas to draw 30 cards and replenish my life total.

The thing is with the cards Blessing of Belzenlok, Cruel Feeding, Rush of Vitality, Grotesque Mutation you can do calculated risk and spend your life total with Wall of Blood and Greven to hope to draw into one. Let's say you are on 25 life. You can spend 11 life to go down to 14 life, sacrifice the Wall of Blood on 13 toughness to go down to 1 life, but drawing 11 cards off Greven. You'd have about a 40% chance of drawing one. It's risky, but if your up against a player who looks to be winning the next turn anyway, it's a logical play you can make. Of course if you have a lifelink already in hand, then you can just go for the play.

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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

This build is pretty cool. I like Greven, he seems like a lot of fun to play and I was thinking about building something like this. FYI Phyrexian Purge is a sorcery and you have it under enchantments.
They're both Griffith, get it?

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
This build is pretty cool. I like Greven, he seems like a lot of fun to play and I was thinking about building something like this. FYI Phyrexian Purge is a sorcery and you have it under enchantments.
I've played a ton more games with him, and I'm enjoying it more and more. I've actually managed to put the squeeze on a lot of top tier decks. The thing is that it is voltron of the highest magnitude as far as if opponents don't deal with him this turn round, he will probably kill you. So if you play at a table which has a clearly top tier deck, you have a good chance of targeting and killing that player with a couple or even single attack.

Greven weakness is that he doesn't have any self protection. So you end up playing quite a few games where he is systematically removed turn after turn, which is fair enough he offers way too much value in draw and in threatening to kill players with attacking.
But as long as you are aware that is what you sign up for then the games which you get to have wholesale free rein is brutal on opponents.

In regards to protection, I found a tech card in Bolt Bend. Perfect for Greven as it'll only cost r.


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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

I've watched this thread since you posted it and it seems you are moving away from extra combat steps. Do you find them to be win-more? Or is there some other reason.
They're both Griffith, get it?

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
I've watched this thread since you posted it and it seems you are moving away from extra combat steps. Do you find them to be win-more? Or is there some other reason.
Don't get me wrong they are great and I've won quite a few games off the back of them, but it's available mana pre and post combat which is the deciding factor on reducing the number of them.

On average you are casting way more spells pre-combat. Maybe a creature to sacrifice or an equipment for evasion or lifelink spell, etc. So it's just less likely that you have mana for additional attacks post combat.

That's why Fury of the Horde has been an all star as you can cast for "free" post combat.
Combat Celebrant is excellent as well as the deck has a lot of haste so you're casting it pre-combat a lot of the time, you can exert it and use it for card draw with Greven the same turn.
Then I've won a few games with Aggravated Assault and Neheb, the Eternal so it's hard for me to justify not picking it over other additional attack type card, even though it has a virtual casting cost of 5rrr, over something like Relentless Assault which is only 2rr.

So I'm happy with the 3 additional attack cards, and I think that'll be it, no more no less.

Actually now that I think about it, I should try an extra turn card like Final Fortune. I've got the feeling one in the deck will win a lot of games, even though it might be risky.

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

Huh. Amid my extensive research, I found the ideal wipe for this deck (not fire covenant or toxic deluge).



Pros: will do everything you need.

Cons: will set you back ~$40 for an English copy.

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Post by xeroxedfool » 4 years ago

[mention]darrenhabib[/mention] thanks for the insight.

I like Hellfire. It could be better than Phyrexian Purge at times. 5 CMC is a little rough as mana seems to be the bottleneck in this deck. I will admit to having no experience playing it though.
They're both Griffith, get it?

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Post by 3drinks » 4 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
darrenhabib thanks for the insight.

I like Hellfire. It could be better than Phyrexian Purge at times. 5 CMC is a little rough as mana seems to be the bottleneck in this deck. I will admit to having no experience playing it though.
Hellfire is better when you have to hit lots of things or things that cant be targeted. Purge is better when you don't want the nuke option. Purge being unable to hit mirran crusaders and being extremely unsafe to use en masse makes me not like it nearly as much. However, I think it's still correct to play it.

Have we talked about the merits of using Hatred yet? Five + X life for +2×/+0 is enticing.

I'm pretty interested in the threaten approach, and I'll be revising a much different list for that soon-ish. Man, I'm actually enjoying this prospect more than zenith Kaalia. Didn't think I'd say that.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
darrenhabib thanks for the insight.

I like Hellfire. It could be better than Phyrexian Purge at times. 5 CMC is a little rough as mana seems to be the bottleneck in this deck. I will admit to having no experience playing it though.
I'm on the fence about Phyrexian Purge. Literally the last game I played an opponent had gone wide and tall with a vampire army (7 creatures and 6/6 (ish) each) and I was already down to half my life total, and I had Phyrexian Purge and it wasn't going to save me. I could get rid of 6 of them but leave myself on 2 life and without a blocker to die to the last one.
I guess what I'm saying is that in that instance I would have preferred Damnation.

Hellfire in that instance would not have saved me either as they were black creatures. But I do think there is merit to looking at Hellfire over Phyrexian Purge as it is better against go wide strategies and in games when you are further behind.

I'll play with Phyrexian Purge for longer before I make a final decision on it.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

3drinks wrote:
4 years ago
xeroxedfool wrote:
4 years ago
darrenhabib thanks for the insight.

I like Hellfire. It could be better than Phyrexian Purge at times. 5 CMC is a little rough as mana seems to be the bottleneck in this deck. I will admit to having no experience playing it though.
Hellfire is better when you have to hit lots of things or things that cant be targeted. Purge is better when you don't want the nuke option. Purge being unable to hit mirran crusaders and being extremely unsafe to use en masse makes me not like it nearly as much. However, I think it's still correct to play it.

Have we talked about the merits of using Hatred yet? Five + X life for +2×/+0 is enticing.

I'm pretty interested in the threaten approach, and I'll be revising a much different list for that soon-ish. Man, I'm actually enjoying this prospect more than zenith Kaalia. Didn't think I'd say that.
Hatred can be turned into a Necrologia but also as a way to one shot an opponent. Obviously perfect flavor.
I could see this being better in a deck that runs a few more mana efficient utility creatures or recoverable creatures that you can make use of sacrificing.
My normal play is to cast something like Lightning Skelemental and so then if I also cast Hatred that would end up being 8 mana total, which is a lot. Too much realistically for most games.
So what I'm saying is that if you are more likely to play cheap creatures that stick around, for example Bloodghast, then Hatred is looking way better in your deck.
You can just play Hatred on Greven, but you are losing out on so much card draw if you don't target a creature to sacrifice.

The stealing creatures is definitely a way to play him, and there are plenty of 3 mana cards that allow you to do this. I am personally using Greven as a card drawing machine, so the tempo is different with stealing as most of the time you'll only be stealing 2 or 3 power creatures, rather than 6 power or whatever. But you will get games as you go deeper that will score you a big creature.
Plus you get the added bonus of catching opponents off being able to block as often the menace makes blocking awkward already, and you take their good blocker and they are screwed.
Might Makes Right can literally be read as just steal target creature each turn as it's so easy to power up Greven with some incidental life loss through tapping some pain lands (or whatever else), so easy to get him up to 7 power at beginning of combat which is normally going to be the biggest power on the table.

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