Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value

Gribbet
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Post by Gribbet » 2 years ago

@zKtu Grafdigger's Cage does shut us down. I run a more goblin heavy build so I get Tuktuk Scrapper and Goblin Trashmaster to take care of artifacts and Goblin Matron, Boggart Harbinger, Goblin Recruiter to tutor them up.

@XamIllustration I'm glad you did well! Did Syr Konrad, the Grim come up at all?

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zKtu
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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

@Gribbet Thank you for confirming the Grafdigger's Cage.

Makes sense for the Tuktuk Scrapper. If I see people including more of these artifacts I'm going to start including responses but so far it happens to me 1 in 10 games. So not a huge issue.

Regarding Goblin Recruiter, you would need then to pair it with Viscera Seer or Woe Strider for the Scry, right? Otherwise casting either Trashmaster or Tuktuk Scrapper can only be done in your turn, you spend 4 mana (-2 Flips) with the danger of counterspell

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Post by XamIllustration » 2 years ago

@Gribbet I took him out for Imperial Recruiter I managed to get while back. I also took out Darksteel Pendant for Deathbringer Thoctar that day I won that aforementioned kiki-jiki win con.

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Post by Gribbet » 2 years ago

@zKtu I also have Warteye Witch to let me scry. And I forgot Moggcatcher lets me put it in play, if it survives.

@XamIllustration Imperial Recruiter is on my wishlist and Deathbringer Thoctar combos really well with this deck.

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

I'm currently experimenting with Mayhem Devil at I have to say it works extremely well. The text on the card allows you a ton of flexibility:

"Whenever a player sacrifices a permanent, Mayhem Devil deals 1 damage to any target"

It's beautiful...

- Whenever players activate their fetch lands it triggers Mayhem, allowing me to do some damage / removal on other players turns
- It triggers when treasure tokens are sacrificed, so it stops Dockside Extortionist or any other infinite combos requiring sacrifice of permanents for mana
- It gives as another tool for creature or planeswalker removal since the deck relies a lot on sacrificing creatures / treasures and Mayhem says "any target", so I think a step ahead in that regard of Zulaport Cutthroat or Blood Artist (Although I would try to find another card to remove to include Mayhem as these 2 help with the life loss due to Treasonous Ogre' ability)

I've also included one more sac outlet for redundancy and more consistency as I previously stated in other posts. I've added Yahenni, Undying Partisan

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

Quick question to the group, someone suggested recently that I include Fires of Invention. which I thought was an interesting suggestion. what do you think?

Pros:
- I try to avoid as much as possible casting cards from hand, so this would allow some flexibility without taking mana from Grenzo's activation
- Doesn't dodge commander tax but still save's you 2 mana when re-casting Grenzo after removal
- Helps removing dead cards in hand and another way to put key creatures on the battlefield without discarding them and using the graveyard. You don't ever cast Marionette Master from hand, you always flip 3 times instead (unless its just the card missing for the combo win and you don't mind sinking 6 mana on it)

Cons
- Dead flip
- you need to invest 4 mana upfront, thats 2 flips which could generate a lot more value than Foi

What do you all think?

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Post by Kaleithel » 2 years ago

A question for every Grenzo's fan: I really like this deck, but I feel that, among all cards, Teferi's Puzzle Box would be a really nice addition. However, I really cannot decide what to remove, to make room for it.
What do you guys think?

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Post by Arkren » 2 years ago

Kaleithel wrote:
2 years ago
A question for every Grenzo's fan: I really like this deck, but I feel that, among all cards, Teferi's Puzzle Box would be a really nice addition. However, I really cannot decide what to remove, to make room for it.
What do you guys think?
i have it in my deck, but have to say, i was actually thinking of cutting it recently. when it works, is very good, but people really, REALLY dont like their hands on the bottom of their library. also, even if is just value there are people that also think that there is way to lock their hands at 0 in the deck.

there is also those times were you play it, the blue player draws their new hand and they play narset and the worst is that the rest of the table looks at you when that happens instead of the narset player.

plus the usual: dead flip, cost 2 flips...

if you still want it inside i would advice to put a decklsit so that i can better advice on what you should do with your list. i will say now that you need minimun 50 creatures+grenzo in this deck for it to make sense in my opinion. also 35 lands. so you have 14 no-creatures to play with (in my case is 55 creatures 35 lands so is only 9) so you have to choose wisely those limited no-creature spells

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

Completely agree with Arkren, exactly why I don't run Teferi's Puzzle Box anymore. It makes you the target and thats the last thing you want. People get really salty

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

Arkren wrote:
2 years ago
if you still want it inside i would advice to put a decklsit so that i can better advice on what you should do with your list. i will say now that you need minimun 50 creatures+grenzo in this deck for it to make sense in my opinion. also 35 lands. so you have 14 no-creatures to play with (in my case is 55 creatures 35 lands so is only 9) so you have to choose wisely those limited no-creature spells
and 14 is not a lot when you have already a couple of cards that are must include:

1. Sol Ring
2. Heartstone
3. Jeweled Lotus
4. The Cauldron of Eternity
5. Ashnod's Altar
6. Nim Deathmantle
7. Tel-Jilad Stylus
8. a mana rock like Rakdos Signet, Arcane Signet or if the power level of your playing group allows, Mana Crypt

that leaves 5 or 6 cards left and it depends on each player. Following what Arkren was mentioning in the composition of a Grenzo deck, I personally run 56 creatures, 33 lands (35 if you count my only instant and sorcery in the deck: Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge and Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt plus 8 artifacts

Arkren
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Post by Arkren » 2 years ago

as usual, i have looked at all the possible candidates for grenzo in the new expansion, sadly this one is not one for grenzo,

the only think that maybe could enter is Diregraf Horde because is 3 bodies and maybe some graveyard hate, but there are better things already printed. 3 power is 1 more than the ideal, also cmc5 which makes the card dead in hand and the card itself doesnt do much once is in the table. if you dont have the better ones Siege-Gang Commander,Sling-Gang Lieutenant, Marionette Master and Emrakul's Hatcher... or you have them but want even more effects like these you could consider it i suppose

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Post by Toshi » 2 years ago

Arkren wrote:
2 years ago
Young Necromancer is probably better than other gy recursion that we usually see on grenzo lists but not by a lot.
So, a few days ago, i hit this one for the first time and it has been amazing.
Reanimation-delving around without the life loss of Phyrexian Delver is perfect! Especially since it's my only option to return Homura, Human Ascendant // Homura's Essence and Purphoros, God of the Forge to the battlefield.

In other news my list is down to 31 lands, with Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire, Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge and Blackbloom Rogue // Blackbloom Bog handy, if need be.

I've been playing this commander for quite a while now and it gives me great joy to play cards that are so much better in this deck than in others. Braid of Fire, Carnival of Souls, Fire Prophecy, The Cauldron of Eternity, Valakut Awakening // Valakut Stoneforge, ... LOVE. IT.

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Post by Gribbet » 2 years ago

@Arkren What do you think about Vengeful Strangler // Strangling Grasp? It can target planeswalkers, which could be interesting.

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

@Gribbet I think its fine if you want to have an extra removal card, but there are better ones without all the extra steps. example: Ravenous Chupacabra or Meteor Golem. One big advantage though might be casting cost. if you end up with meteor golem in hand, there is no way you are casting it. the biggest disadvantage in my point of view is its not an immediate removal. if there is something blocking your combo and you need to remove it immediately to go off this card will not allow you to do it. The player targeted can also sacrifice something else instead of the desired target, that means yet another table rotation.

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Post by Arkren » 2 years ago

Gribbet wrote:
2 years ago
@Arkren What do you think about Vengeful Strangler // Strangling Grasp? It can target planeswalkers, which could be interesting.
zktu has answered quite well, but since i have been asked personally i will talk about it too. if you want to be controling the table the card is in, but if you plan to be the one that other players need to control this card is worse than others that have a more inmediate effect. like Meteor Golem.

if you cant kill it people are not going to bother blocking it and then is a 2/1 that cant block, a very bad flip.

have to say also that usually grenzo doesnt have too much problems with walkers in my experience. walkers are usually weak to creature attacks, and this grenzo has 50+ that can enter after the walker does his thing, so usually if a walker is bothering you is easy enough to kill it in the combat phase.

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

I did see a really interesting card in the Commander decks of Innistrad: Prowling Geistcatcher

The more I read the card the more excited I get, I think it adds a new dimension to the deck. This card in play with Ashnod's Altar is an insane combination.

5 reasons why I immediately liked it:

- It can bounce a couple of important ETBs to give us more mana, while we search for combo pieces. one example is Dockside Extortionist. or when you are frantically looking for that missing piece and sacrificing everything desperately, Geistcatcher will give you a second chance, you can do it all over again, bringing all those sacrificed creatures back, triggering again all the ETBs and another round of sacrifices. especially with Altar
- Protection from board wipes. imagine someone casts Wrath of God, in response, you sacrifice all your creatures to the Geistcatcher and just let it die to the wrath. he leaves the battlefield and returns all your creatures, triggering all ETBs. This is an incredible protection.
- Avoids graveyard hate if you need to sacrifice something and getting another ETB. Example: Meteor Golem
- Can protect Grenzo. if someone targets your commander, you sacrifice it in response, exiling it to Geistcatcher and then sacrifice Geistcatcher to get Grenzo back.
- Text says "leave the battlefield" so even if it gets itself exiled with Swords to Plowshares instead of destroyed, you still get all your creatures back. Also it will be a difficult decision for other players to try to destroy it. I would just sacrifice everything to it in response, let it die and get all ETBs again.

I think I'm going to experiment with it and see how it goes.

What do you think???

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Post by Arkren » 2 years ago

that card is entering my list 100%.

apart from all the good points you have stated, is also a 2/4 which is basically the best power for grenzo. also cmc4 and only 1 black is actually very castable from hand and probably a good idea to do it even. this thing and ashnod altar probably combo for the win, is not a 100% combo but if you double each creature flip chances are that you are going to flip enough times to find a real combo before running out of mana

edit: is also a human rogue, which is something importat if you are using certain cards in the deck. for example Path of Ancestry and Cloak and Dagger works with him

Mana Echoes, not only works with the rogue part but also the human part, since human is quite a common type and having a human on your side with echoes is usually a good way to net some extra mana from opponent creatures

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

Arkren wrote:
2 years ago
that card is entering my list 100%.

apart from all the good points you have stated, is also a 2/4 which is basically the best power for grenzo. also cmc4 and only 1 black is actually very castable from hand and probably a good idea to do it even. this thing and ashnod altar probably combo for the win, is not a 100% combo but if you double each creature flip chances are that you are going to flip enough times to find a real combo before running out of mana

edit: is also a human rogue, which is something importat if you are using certain cards in the deck. for example Path of Ancestry and Cloak and Dagger works with him

Mana Echoes, not only works with the rogue part but also the human part, since human is quite a common type and having a human on your side with echoes is usually a good way to net some extra mana from opponent creatures
excellent points on the CMC and only 1 black. indeed even if you have it in hand its easy to put it in play.

But also agree with you, the double flip chance on each creature is insane

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

just finished a game where I flipped Prowling Geistcatcher

Works amazingly well.... this is one of the best cards for Grenzo, combos spectacularly well with him

@Arkren Hey Akren, an edit on this post, I came across the first downside of Geistcatcher during a game :) it doesn't trigger neither Pawn of Ulamog nor Pitiless Plunderer so when you sacrifice creatures to it, they get exiled and not put into the graveyard, so you need to carefully calculate your mana. Although the pros we discussed still hold value. I just exiled for example a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Dockside Extortionist and those 2 with Geistcatcher meant 4 docksides generating 7 mana each time. gave me enough to find a combo

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Post by Kl3dge » 2 years ago

zKtu wrote:
2 years ago
just finished a game where I flipped Prowling Geistcatcher

Works amazingly well.... this is one of the best cards for Grenzo, combos spectacularly well with him

@Arkren Hey Akren, an edit on this post, I came across the first downside of Geistcatcher during a game :) it doesn't trigger neither Pawn of Ulamog nor Pitiless Plunderer so when you sacrifice creatures to it, they get exiled and not put into the graveyard, so you need to carefully calculate your mana. Although the pros we discussed still hold value. I just exiled for example a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Dockside Extortionist and those 2 with Geistcatcher meant 4 docksides generating 7 mana each time. gave me enough to find a combo
This is actually not true! The sacrificed creatures are exiled FROM the graveyard. It is NOT a replacement effect but a delayed trigger. This is confirmed in the release notes from the set.

"If you sacrifice a nontoken creature you control but don't own, Prowling Geistcatcher will still cause you to exile that card from its owner's graveyard. The card will be returned to the battlefield under your control with the rest of the exiled cards when Prowling Geistcatcher's last ability resolves."

The sacrifices would still trigger their death triggers.

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

Kl3dge wrote:
2 years ago

This is actually not true! The sacrificed creatures are exiled FROM the graveyard. It is NOT a replacement effect but a delayed trigger. This is confirmed in the release notes from the set.

"If you sacrifice a nontoken creature you control but don't own, Prowling Geistcatcher will still cause you to exile that card from its owner's graveyard. The card will be returned to the battlefield under your control with the rest of the exiled cards when Prowling Geistcatcher's last ability resolves."

The sacrifices would still trigger their death triggers.
In that case, even better!! so I just went through a few games without getting all the triggers because everyone reacted the same way. I had people tell me it doesn't trigger also for Zulaport Cutthroat

but that gets me thinking, that means that cards like Rest in Peace would actually block the effect of Geistcatcher?

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Post by Arkren » 2 years ago

zKtu wrote:
2 years ago
Kl3dge wrote:
2 years ago

This is actually not true! The sacrificed creatures are exiled FROM the graveyard. It is NOT a replacement effect but a delayed trigger. This is confirmed in the release notes from the set.

"If you sacrifice a nontoken creature you control but don't own, Prowling Geistcatcher will still cause you to exile that card from its owner's graveyard. The card will be returned to the battlefield under your control with the rest of the exiled cards when Prowling Geistcatcher's last ability resolves."

The sacrifices would still trigger their death triggers.
In that case, even better!! so I just went through a few games without getting all the triggers because everyone reacted the same way. I had people tell me it doesn't trigger also for Zulaport Cutthroat

but that gets me thinking, that means that cards like Rest in Peace would actually block the effect of Geistcatcher?
im not sure about this, but grenzo actually doesnt care for cards likeRest in Peace because even if the flipped cards dont go the graveyard grenzo still sees them in exile and brings them back from there if they have less or equal power, so maybe the same happens here and geistcatcher still knows that creatures died and still returns them. is not the same wording so maybe is not as im saying, but my money is on "yes"

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Post by Kl3dge » 2 years ago

Arkren wrote:
2 years ago
zKtu wrote:
2 years ago
Kl3dge wrote:
2 years ago

This is actually not true! The sacrificed creatures are exiled FROM the graveyard. It is NOT a replacement effect but a delayed trigger. This is confirmed in the release notes from the set.

"If you sacrifice a nontoken creature you control but don't own, Prowling Geistcatcher will still cause you to exile that card from its owner's graveyard. The card will be returned to the battlefield under your control with the rest of the exiled cards when Prowling Geistcatcher's last ability resolves."

The sacrifices would still trigger their death triggers.
In that case, even better!! so I just went through a few games without getting all the triggers because everyone reacted the same way. I had people tell me it doesn't trigger also for Zulaport Cutthroat

but that gets me thinking, that means that cards like Rest in Peace would actually block the effect of Geistcatcher?
im not sure about this, but grenzo actually doesnt care for cards likeRest in Peace because even if the flipped cards dont go the graveyard grenzo still sees them in exile and brings them back from there if they have less or equal power, so maybe the same happens here and geistcatcher still knows that creatures died and still returns them. is not the same wording so maybe is not as im saying, but my money is on "yes"
I know this is odd, but I'll try and explain the difference. Grenzo doesn't actually specify which zone it needs to return from, which is why it doesn't care. Prowling Geistcrawler returns cards exiled WITH it. So it depends if Rest In Peace or Prowling Geistcrawler's ability to exile the card resolved first. When the creature is sacrificed, it tries to move to the graveyard - as a replacement effect, Rest In Peace sort of CHANGES what happens, instead of responding to it. This means the card doesn't ever enter the graveyard, it gets sacrificed directly into exile. Once the sacrifice resolves, Prowling Geistcrawler tries to trigger, but the card would already be in exile, but exiles by RIP, not by Prowling. As a result, when Prowling's second ability happens, it will not have exiled that card so it will not be returned.

Edit. I'm an idiot, Rest In Peace does not disrupt this. Someone on Reddit said:

"Relevant ruling about exile:

406.7. If an object in the exile zone becomes exiled, it doesn't change zones, but it becomes a new object that has just been exiled."

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Post by zKtu » 2 years ago

@Kl3dge sorry, so what you're saying is Rest in Peace does not disrupt Prowling Geistcatcher's ability to exile creature's that you've sacrificed?

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Post by JBdnr » 2 years ago

Rule 406.7 is not relevant here. The Geistcatcher would exile them from the graveyard, but they never hit the graveyard to begin with because of Rest in Peace. Rest in Peace does hinder Prowling Geistcatcher's ability.

I asked in the judge chat to be sure. Don't believe everything you read on reddit. :D

I still think the card is amazing. It will very rarely be the case that both cards are in play. And normally, death triggers still happen. Even without a classical sacrifice outlet, it makes cards like Goblin Welder, Goblin Engineer, Soldevi Adnate and Plaguecrafter better. You can even get back opponents' creatures with a way to sacrifice them, e.g. with Puppeteer Clique or Zealous Conscripts.

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