Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Yeah its on all of the incarnation cycle from that block. Just the original printings obviously.
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toctheyounger
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Well, got my copy of Wilhelt waiting for me at LGS. Everything else on my list is a little expensive rn, so I'm gonna let the dust settle on the release and see where prices end up for everything else.

Meathook is like 25NZD right now. I'm really hoping that one comes down in price.
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Post by Falkenbach » 2 years ago

I got myself a Tainted Adversary and Bladestitched Skaab from my prerelease boosters. Gonna give the adversary a try. The lord im less and less interested in.. The more you think about the zombies from innistrad and the commander deck the more dissapointed I am getting.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

Falkenbach wrote:
2 years ago
I got myself a Tainted Adversary and Bladestitched Skaab from my prerelease boosters. Gonna give the adversary a try. The lord im less and less interested in.. The more you think about the zombies from innistrad and the commander deck the more dissapointed I am getting.
I wouldn't worry about it too much honestly. Most of the builds are kind of st that point where the things we want are really quite specific and that makes it a lot easier to just strike options off of the list for consideration. What I want for the deck at present is specific enough that I didn't see it this spoiler season and very well might not the next. All that said, I wasn't expecting Wilhelm and that was a nice surprise.
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| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

For an Innistrad set things have been a bit disappointing, but I do agree that perhaps that what we have come to desire for our decks is more specific nowadays. Even in the discussions here you can see the various directions people are going and the different cards they are looking for in that regard. But there is in the least a couple of cards that I'm interested in trying out.

Main inclusions
Wilhelt, the Rotcleaver , Empty the Laboratory and Crowded Crypt

Will be tested:
Ghoulish Procession , Cleaver Skaab and Rotten Reunion

Hordewing Skaab I'm still not sure about on whether it gets in.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

@toctheyounger I think the zombies might continue to get cheaper for a bit after relase, the meathook massacre is a tough one to predict. I think a quick slumop post release when the market gets flooded and then it might go up - depending on standard use. It is a highly playable mythic. Personally I am waiting until a few days after release to pull the trigger on that one.

I use Mana Box to make my lists and they finally uploaded the new cards so I thought I would share my initial post release list:
Decklist

Commander:

Non-Zombie Creatures (2):

Approximate Total Cost:

Some of my thinking on the choices:
  • Dropped the draw doublers for more zombies to see if they are needed or if Varina's trigger is enough.
  • Included more board wipes both in creature form and spell form. Swapped out Grimgrin for Ghoul (hope I don't miss the sac outlet and removal).
  • Decided to include a lot of evasion, going to try the new flying lord, dropped Filth to include it. Added Zombie Master for more evasion but really want the regeneration in this zombie heavy build.
Last edited by plaganegra 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

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Reya
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

34 lands seems really not enough. I cannot imagine going below 36 in a Varina shell where we play a lot of 4,5,6 mana spells.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I don't think I'd run Jet Medallion when it helps less than half of the cards in the deck (28), and only a handful of them if you also get out the Warchief.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Reya wrote:
2 years ago
34 lands seems really not enough. I cannot imagine going below 36 in a Varina shell where we play a lot of 4,5,6 mana spells.
I run 34 in my list, and am usually fine since the deck sees so many cards. Looks like he's lowered the curve a bit, too, which makes the lower land count less of an issue as well.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
I don't think I'd run Jet Medallion when it helps less than half of the cards in the deck (28), and only a handful of them if you also get out the Warchief.
Medallion is actually a new addition for me, I like that it doesnt need to tap and can reduce cost multiple times in one turn.
In its place could be another signet or talisman just figured I would give it a go. I do see your point though perhaps I will swap it out.

I have never had issues with not hitting my land drops so far with my deck (on average) - more so seeing too many lands in a game has hurt me. 34 is the lowest I would go but mathematically 35-36 is probably the sweet spot. I do like to be a bit greedy with my mana bases lol. I could see myself adding another land at some point though. 36 seemed too high for me in practice.

Thanks for the feedback guys.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

The undead warchief actually was in my cut pile for quite a bit. I might put it back because 4 mana for a discount seems too high to pay and I could really care less about the buff most of the time. Sometimes its nice though, but most times I just want a cheaper zombie

I know it is probably sacreligious to say - but I have kind of soured on the card. Has anyone else been thinking of cutting this staple? Would be interested in peoples thoughts on this.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

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Post by Eburon » 2 years ago

I have never considered cutting the Warchief. The buff along with the price reduction warrant it's inclusion and it's cost.

I think 34 lands in Varina is just fine. We run enough draw to smooth out land drops.

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Reya
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

I saw you don't play Smothering Tithe. You think it's too expensive for this deck ? I'm wondering too if 4 mana is maybe too much. The effect is insane and can help you win games. (easier to pay commander taxe, easier to activate Varina, more mana for expensives spells).

For my next games, I will maybe try Land Tax instead of Tithe. Maybe a guaranted land drop and a good synergy with Varina is better than a 4 mana enchantment. I don't know.

I will consider to probably cut Sword of the animist. It's so expensive for 1 land.

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Reya
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

I had the chance to try Land Tax and it's pretty amazing in that deck. I will immediately buy one :D

Definitely worth it to switch from Smothering Tithe to Land Tax.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
@toctheyounger I think the zombies might continue to get cheaper for a bit after relase, the meathook massacre is a tough one to predict. I think a quick slumop post release when the market gets flooded and then it might go up - depending on standard use. It is a highly playable mythic. Personally I am waiting until a few days after release to pull the trigger on that one.
Much the same. There's bits I want for a few decks, and I've bought as much of the cheaper stuff I can. Wilhelt was like 10, but I didn't wanna risk missing out, as the last few commander releases shipments have been a little unreliable to NZ. As for the commander product stuff, it's niche enough that almost certainly prices will significantly drop. Meathook remains to be seen, I think. If it's a standard player I might be in for a wait, or just a pound of flesh, pardon the expression. 25 NZD isn't the worst, but I'd like it to drop off a little more before I take the leap. Hopefully it doesn't do a The Great Henge and skyrocket.

Re your decklist - Buried Alive instead of Entomb? The latter is streets ahead for value and versatility.
yeti1069 wrote:
2 years ago
I don't think I'd run Jet Medallion when it helps less than half of the cards in the deck (28), and only a handful of them if you also get out the Warchief.
plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
I have never had issues with not hitting my land drops so far with my deck (on average) - more so seeing too many lands in a game has hurt me. 34 is the lowest I would go but mathematically 35-36 is probably the sweet spot. I do like to be a bit greedy with my mana bases lol. I could see myself adding another land at some point though. 36 seemed too high for me in practice.
Agreed, land flood hurts a lot. 34 is a bold move, I think I'm at 36 or 37 myself. I think I'd want the allied fetches, and maybe a Fabled Passage before I'd drop lower, purely for consistencies' sake. Taking one out has seemed positive for me though so far.
Reya wrote:
2 years ago
I saw you don't play Smothering Tithe. You think it's too expensive for this deck ? I'm wondering too if 4 mana is maybe too much. The effect is insane and can help you win games. (easier to pay commander taxe, easier to activate Varina, more mana for expensives spells).

For my next games, I will maybe try Land Tax instead of Tithe. Maybe a guaranted land drop and a good synergy with Varina is better than a 4 mana enchantment. I don't know.

I will consider to probably cut Sword of the animist. It's so expensive for 1 land.
I've been tossing up throwing Tithe back in myself. It's a bit harder of a sell without wheels to make it go quicker though. And it's a kill on sight. A lot of the time casting it it just bites removal and you're down some instead of up some, and that's rough on this deck. I wouldn't even necessarily worry too much at that, but I can't easily bring it back to play either.

Sword of the Animist has been good for me, it's either a nice way to keep land drops coming early game in addition to your existing land drop, or a mid to late game Varina filter. All that said the more nonbasic the land base becomes, the less places exist for it, so I get dropping it. It probably is on borrowed time in my list eventually too.

Has anyone given thought to bolstering zombie numbers with changelings? Changeling Outcast could be reasonable, and Mirror Entity doubles as a board wipe and a combat booster. It does get a little weird with Patriarch's Bidding but probably more in a good way than anything.

I've also been wondering about the Zendikar Rising MDFC lands - has anyone tried them out here? I've heard good things here and there, I just don't know if there's any that really need to be in here.
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| Shadowthrone/Lazav | Raest/Yidris | T'iam / The Ur-Dragon |

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

@toctheyounger

Entomb is a card I keep trying to find room for in my build but I am so torn on cutting whats there right now. I love buried alive for the value it gives me with three recursion creatures and sometimes wonder. Same with Intuition. Really I should be running all three of these GY tutors but I think right now I usually am not going to get anything besides creatures most of the time with the buried alive slot. So three is better than 1. At least thats my thinking on it. What scenario do you prefer entomb over? I am far from settled on anything in the list tbh. Even though I put a lot of energy into the choices Its very experimental in nature.

If I add entomb I plan to also bring prized amalgam back into the fold.

I have thought about the changelings quite a bit and have eyed up the same ones. I dont know of I am desperate enough for the changeling outcast but the mirror entity is really good. I might actually add one. Its been a but since I really considered it. Now that I feel the deck is a little more aggressive and evasive I can see it as being like a coat of arms on a stick capable of alpha striking.

Edit - on second thought. The outcast really fits what I am trying to do. I have to put it in I think. Thanks man.

I should probably run 35 lands and one less colorless land. Probably. Lol. I am greedy here and I admit it!

@Reya
Smothering Tithe should probably just go in almost every deck that can run it. It's why the card is so polarizing - like Rhystic Study. I am sure in an optimal varina build you would probably run both actually.

I choose not to because I actually only own one and I use it in my Breya artifact deck where I feel less dirty when I cast it lol. The card is just insane.
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
Entomb is a card I keep trying to find room for in my build but I am so torn on cutting whats there right now. I love buried alive for the value it gives me with three recursion creatures and sometimes wonder. Same with Intuition. Really I should be running all three of these GY tutors but I think right now I usually am not going to get anything besides creatures most of the time with the buried alive slot. So three is better than 1. At least thats my thinking on it. What scenario do you prefer entomb over? I am far from settled on anything in the list tbh. Even though I put a lot of energy into the choices Its very experimental in nature.

If I add entomb I plan to also bring prized amalgam back into the fold.

I have thought about the changelings quite a bit and have eyed up the same ones. I dont know of I am desperate enough for the changeling outcast but the mirror entity is really good. I might actually add one. Its been a but since I really considered it. Now that I feel the deck is a little more aggressive and evasive I can see it as being like a coat of arms on a stick capable of alpha striking.

Edit - on second thought. The outcast really fits what I am trying to do. I have to put it in I think. Thanks man.
I just think Entomb is more efficient, being instant speed and able to get anything needed. Most of the time that is going to be a creature, but you never know. I think just in terms efficiency it's what I'd run here (although I don't own and probably never will own an Intuition - RL is beyond my reach now).

No problem, I think both the Entity and Outcast could possibly fit fine here. Entity is a little more flexible but also more expensive, so I guess it remains to be seen. Outcast for me is just a low cost critter to trigger Varina, and it'll always survive combat.

Personally my Smothering Tithe is just sitting in my trade binder. I never really liked that it drops at the same time as Varina, and for all the times it spewed treasure there were as many or more it just got pinged right away. I just don't know that it's a lock here on every level, even if it's the definition of goodstuff value.
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

@toctheyounger

I actually just went through an interesting train of thought I want to share. Genrally I don't care about P/T buffs in my deck since most of the time they don't seem to matter and/or draw tons of aggro/attention to my board.

But still I thought - remove undead warchief and add mirror entity, it's cheaper right?

Bit it's really not cheaper, in fact mirror entity is a very expensive card when you think about it. Since it is not adding to your creatures P/T and instead replacing it - you have to pay a bunch of mana just to break even! Once I realized this I put the mirror entity back into the maybeboard. For an average board you probably need to spend at least 3 mana just to break even (since Varina is a 4/4 and many zombies are 2/2 or 3/3). That means for it to be worth your time you probably need to tap out. it is just very specific. Since its a repeatable activated ability it is very powerful, but dang is it a mana hog.

I ended up still removing the undead warchief, and just added the changeling outcast instead. Which will instantly save me 3 mana on the slot every time and trigger Varina much more consistently (since I usually wont attack with the warchief to protect it in the absence of evasion anyway).

Re: Smothering Tithe
All the best cards in the format die to removal, and in fact this card is so warping in my meta that everyone has added removal just to kill cards like it, so they don't often last more than 2 turn cycles, other than in decks with recursion. But usually it still ramps quite a bit and when the card is not removed quickly that player almost always wins. I don't see anyone trying to make an "optimal" build of the deck so its far from a "must run" - but if you were making an optimized deck it would probably run smothering tithe.

I think we are very smart to avoid it and let someone else's enchantment eat the removal lol. So we can then blow them out with an obscure game ender like tombstone stairwell rofl
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
MTG since 2003

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
@toctheyounger

I actually just went through an interesting train of thought I want to share. Genrally I don't care about P/T buffs in my deck since most of the time they don't seem to matter and/or draw tons of aggro/attention to my board.

But still I thought - remove undead warchief and add mirror entity, it's cheaper right?

Bit it's really not cheaper, in fact mirror entity is a very expensive card when you think about it. Since it is not adding to your creatures P/T and instead replacing it - you have to pay a bunch of mana just to break even! Once I realized this I put the mirror entity back into the maybeboard. For an average board you probably need to spend at least 3 mana just to break even (since Varina is a 4/4 and many zombies are 2/2 or 3/3). That means for it to be worth your time you probably need to tap out. it is just very specific. Since its a repeatable activated ability it is very powerful, but dang is it a mana hog.

I ended up still removing the undead warchief, and just added the changeling outcast instead. Which will instantly save me 3 mana on the slot every time and trigger Varina much more consistently (since I usually wont attack with the warchief to protect it in the absence of evasion anyway).
This checks out to me. Entity is expensive to use functionally well. Although what it does have over the lords is a pseudo-sac by paying 0 instead of net positive x numbers. Very much not the most efficient sac outlet, but it is on a 'zombie' which isn't nothing.

I'd assume the Outcast will perform well, purely because in most game states there's no reason it won't survive combat, and its dirt cheap. Personally though, Undead Warchief has been pretty good for me; the p/t buffs aren't what I'm there for really but they are nice, and the cost reduction is at the right spot too. It's expensive to cast but it does take everything else in the directions they wanna go in, so it's never really something I'm disappointed to see.

Tithe I could totally understand running tbh. There's a reason it's kill on sight, it's very very good. I've just found that here, in this deck, it's just ever so slightly more than I want to pay for it, and its reputation precedes itself a little too much for my liking. Also, inb4 Monologue Tax, it ain't happening.
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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Personally though, Undead Warchief has been pretty good for me; the p/t buffs aren't what I'm there for really but they are nice, and the cost reduction is at the right spot too. It's expensive to cast but it does take everything else in the directions they wanna go in, so it's never really something I'm disappointed to see.
I am glad you brought this up because I find it to be in an awkward spot on the curve that can make hands clunky. Since it is a 4-drop it is competing with casting Varina if you have it in your hand on t3-4. Also, if you want to play the deck efficiently, you will probably be playing your small zombies and varina before casting this early in the game reducing the potential impact of the warchief by a lot. So at that point it is a mid-late game buff which really hurts it imo. It really competes with Varina on the curve.

Over the course of a game how much mana does it save you on average? When I asked myself this question I was disappointed with the answer for a 4cmc creature. (I think the answer is about 3 mana on a average good day, which can be accomplished much easier by just swapping this for another zombie)

For the same reasons I am seeing criticism against jet medallion they should all also apply to undead warchief but in a worse way. Because if you dont care too much about the buffs it is just a very awkward and more restrictive jet medallion. Again, assuming the buff isn't relevant. Of course if it is then this changes things quite a bit since it is a strong buff for a creature lord.

I think I am ready to slaughter this sacred cow personally. Still a good card and very playable but far from the auto-include it always has been for me in my zombie decks.

Also -that is a great point about the changeling. I never thought to use it in that way! Very creative
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by WWolfe » 2 years ago

Interesting game tonight. Opponent had out Glacial Chasm and I just couldn't deal with it. Then I drew a card I have been debating cutting. Gempalm Polluter while I had 13 zombies out. Cycled it and finished the game. I know it's kind of a corner case but it probably is more valuable than I had been thinking it was.

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Post by toctheyounger » 2 years ago

plaganegra wrote:
2 years ago
toctheyounger wrote:
2 years ago
Personally though, Undead Warchief has been pretty good for me; the p/t buffs aren't what I'm there for really but they are nice, and the cost reduction is at the right spot too. It's expensive to cast but it does take everything else in the directions they wanna go in, so it's never really something I'm disappointed to see.
I am glad you brought this up because I find it to be in an awkward spot on the curve that can make hands clunky. Since it is a 4-drop it is competing with casting Varina if you have it in your hand on t3-4. Also, if you want to play the deck efficiently, you will probably be playing your small zombies and varina before casting this early in the game reducing the potential impact of the warchief by a lot. So at that point it is a mid-late game buff which really hurts it imo. It really competes with Varina on the curve.

Over the course of a game how much mana does it save you on average? When I asked myself this question I was disappointed with the answer for a 4cmc creature. (I think the answer is about 3 mana on a average good day, which can be accomplished much easier by just swapping this for another zombie)

For the same reasons I am seeing criticism against jet medallion they should all also apply to undead warchief but in a worse way. Because if you dont care too much about the buffs it is just a very awkward and more restrictive jet medallion. Again, assuming the buff isn't relevant. Of course if it is then this changes things quite a bit since it is a strong buff for a creature lord.

I think I am ready to slaughter this sacred cow personally. Still a good card and very playable but far from the auto-include it always has been for me in my zombie decks.

Also -that is a great point about the changeling. I never thought to use it in that way! Very creative
Yeah warchief is weird. It shouldn't be good but it is. One of the mtg channels I watch recently had a video up about MDFCs, and how a sort of good effect and a sort of good effect stapled together can be great. Warchief seems like that to me. The cost reduction seems average, but with most zombies splashing deep into color you don't really want more than 1. And a tribal pump is fine but nothing to write home about. Make the front end a little heavier on the pump and you have a medallion stapled to a beefy lord. It shouldn't be good but it is.

I get what you're saying though, I wouldn't fault you for cutting it. On paper its always been a flex spot for me but it performs very well so I keep it.

Yeah the Entity thing is a neat little trick to get some death triggers. It won't work with lords in play though so I feel like it'd be a pretty niche add anyway.
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Post by Reya » 2 years ago

Where Undead Warchief shines, it's when you cast it with Varina + 1-2 others zombies. +2/+1 is a huge boost and let you swing easely. But 4 mana is a lot and I may cut it too.

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Post by plaganegra » 2 years ago

I agree. Every time it has shined for me it was because of the buff and not the cost reduction. For one more mana you get coat of arms though…. Idk its in an awkward spot
Zombies ate my brains.
My Varina Decklist
Also: Yawgmoth, Tinybones, Blim, Krenko, Kaalia, Beckett Brass, Chatterfang, Evelyn, Kodama-East, Kozilek, Breya, Morophon, U-Braids, Ashcoat.
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Post by Nimbaway » 2 years ago

Undead Warchief definitely is more leaning towards being a lord than cost reducer, which makes evaluating the card depend on how you intend to swing to do damage. It's a nice target to have hit the board after a mass reanimation, but this is where the deck has a big weakness with the lack of haste. Coat of Arms sits in a tougher spot of it being a 5 mana card and without creatures it does nothing.

I've considered adding something like Vedalken Orrery or Leyline of Anticipation so to mass reanimate on an EOT, creating a pseudo haste effect, but it still forces us to take off essentially a turn.

So I could see Warchief getting cut, but with the consideration of Changeling Outcast I might keep it in slightly longer for now.

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