Varina, Lich Queen - Esper Zombie Midrange

[ChocoDude]

You've convinced me to try out Sword of the Animist. I've pulled one from my Heliod deck that really didn't utilize it well. Congrats on the Rhystic Study too! I've found it to be super super handy in my Varina deck.

What are your collective thoughts on Curse of Disturbance? If you target another player, would you get a 2/2 zombie token every time anyone else at the table (including yourself of course) attacks that player? If that's the case, you could target the most threatening player at the table and potentially generate three zombies a round, also giving each other opponent one zombie a round. (That could help with Shepherd of Rot too.) It may be less explosive than Zombie Infestation IF you have lots of cards you're willing to discard, but it could take some focus off of you. Of course, it only works as long as that player is in the game.

[toctheyounger]

Curse of Disturbance seems fine, although it probably will suffer in a more spell/combo oriented meta.

I had a bit of a mull over for options in terms of token creators this weekend and did a little scryfalling to cover off options. They are more scant than I'd like:
Open the Graves I've run it before. Its fine, good even with a sac outlet. It is expensive though.
Necromancer's Covenant - I quite like the effect but I absolutely hate the CMC.
Skirk Ridge Exhumer - Slow but not bad in its own way.
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet - I think of what I've looked into this is the best of whats available at the moment. It does Agent of Erebos, has passive token generation and gives a sacrifice outlet in a pinch. Very good card, but it isn't a zombie. I wonder if thats crucial or not.

Ultimately I don't think there's much in the way of really reliable options for easy token generation. All of the options at the minute are either too conditional or too expensive to cast, nothing really ticks all of the boxes.

[Nimbaway]

I've ran Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet before and while it was decent it didn't impress me that much, it's generally going to be facing removal a lot as it directly affects opponents. I prefer to go slightly more under the radar at first and Kalitas never really let me do that. Instead I'm currently running Ghoulcaller Gisa in my list, while maybe less efficient at making tokens and sitting at a dreaded 5 CMC, I've been okay with having it there. It's definitely not a must include, but for me it protects a creature from getting exiled and leaves bodies behind.

Curse of Disturbance is a mixed bag, it could create more tokens than Zombie Infestation but can be a dud in board stalls. Last game I played with the deck I ran into double Notion Thief shutting down Varina and Curse would have done little here for me. That said its a situational thing and could be discard fodder just as easily. So definitely a meta dependent option, might try it as like with many others Zombie Infestation has been on the fence as well for me.

Other then that I'm likely going to end up testing out Damn, see if it's versatility is something the deck can use. The card is likely good, just personally less fond of the double white in the alternate casting cost.

[toctheyounger]

Other then that I'm likely going to end up testing out Damn, see if it's versatility is something the deck can use. The card is likely good, just personally less fond of the double white in the alternate casting cost.

Agreed, I think it's a very versatile card. I'm just waiting for prices to settle a little on MH2 cards before I take the leap on this. All going well, I'm pretty confident I can get a Marsh Flats in the deck at some point too.

dreaded 5 CMC

I've tossed up in the last wee bit whether it's worth having some low-CMC reanimation in the deck to aid with this. I've got a spare Animate Dead, which seems pretty nice and is a possible target for something like Sevinne's Reclamation. Then there's Dread Return or something. I dunno, I've just noticed myself being pretty reluctant to hardcast the big boys, and the last couple of games I've been stalled out waiting for a mass reanimator spell (Twilight's Call incoming too). Being able to beat the curve early would be really nice, and it'd be good to have a bit more in the way of options for when mass reanimation isn't worth it.

[Nabux]

I've mentioned Noosegraf Mob in the past, and the only thing that deters me from adding it in again is it's CMC. Still, it's really great with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and with Mirrorweave, so it might just be worth it.

Hello there !
I think the interaction between Noosegraf Mob and Mirrorweave is just killing you board because its actualy a 0/0 with counters on ETB. But maybe i missed the ineraction with Mikaeus.
Btw, i just won out of nowhere an 100% lost game due to the combo between Tombstone Stairwell and Vengeful Dead played out of my graveyard in response to their boardwhipe with Apprentice Necromancer. That was 3 cards you've made me put in my decks so thank you.

I must admit that i'm not very convinced by the fact that you guys are playing less and less ramp. I play mainly online and i think the power of the decks tend to rise up.
I would submit some cards that i enjoyed playing that could fit in : Etchings of the Chosen - Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire - Lazotep Plating - Stubborn Denial. Yeah i feel like Varina is often the target and i've not one as efficient backup plan to fill the graveyard. Ah and obviously Fact or Fiction but im sure this card have been already discussed.

[Nimbaway]

I think the interaction between Noosegraf Mob and Mirrorweave is just killing you board because its actualy a 0/0 with counters on ETB. But maybe i missed the ineraction with Mikaeus.

Yeah, this one doesn't work but for a different reason: Mirrorweave also changes Mikaeus, the Unhallowed into a copy of Noosegraf Mob, meaning that no creature has undying and things die instantly.

I must admit that i'm not very convinced by the fact that you guys are playing less and less ramp. I play mainly online and i think the power of the decks tend to rise up.

There has been a slight shift in the way we are ramping with this deck, using things like Archaeomancer's Map , Sword of the Animist and Land Tax as means to ramp over the traditional mana rocks. The deck requires a fair bit of colored mana and that is something often against the cheaper mana rocks and things like Sol Ring have been known to be hit by removal a lot.

Etchings of the Chosen could be considered over a lord like Lord of the Accursed, but in a reanimation shell creatures are slightly more preferred due to the ability to recur them. Malakir Rebirth // Malakir Mire I just like less, mostly due to the timing. I'd rather run a single target reanimate spell over it so I can bring back what I want when I want it. With the other two its more about how reactive you want to be, as finding slots is a tough thing and aside from Varina herself stuff hitting the yard isn't the end.

[WizardMN]

I think the interaction between Noosegraf Mob and Mirrorweave is just killing you board because its actualy a 0/0 with counters on ETB. But maybe i missed the ineraction with Mikaeus.

Yeah, this one doesn't work but for a different reason: Mirrorweave also changes Mikaeus, the Unhallowed into a copy of Noosegraf Mob, meaning that no creature has undying and things die instantly.

I will let Toc clarify, but I think that was the point. Turning everything into a 0/0 makes Mirrorweave a wrath. I don't think he was saying Mirrorweave *and* Mikaeus work together: just that Mob works with both of them but in different ways. In the Mirrorweave scenario, you still have your Mob while everyone else has no board which is decent, even if it does take more cards to make work.

I must admit that i'm not very convinced by the fact that you guys are playing less and less ramp. I play mainly online and i think the power of the decks tend to rise up.

There has been a slight shift in the way we are ramping with this deck, using things like Archaeomancer's Map , Sword of the Animist and Land Tax as means to ramp over the traditional mana rocks. The deck requires a fair bit of colored mana and that is something often against the cheaper mana rocks and things like Sol Ring have been known to be hit by removal a lot.
[/quote]

I play primarily online as well and I have yet to feel that shifting the ramp package has been detrimental. Now, Online doesn't give us access to Archaeomancer's Map so that certainly changes things a little but cutting the 2 mana rocks has yet to feel like the wrong decision.

[toctheyounger]

Btw, i just won out of nowhere an 100% lost game due to the combo between Tombstone Stairwell and Vengeful Dead played out of my graveyard in response to their boardwhipe with Apprentice Necromancer. That was 3 cards you've made me put in my decks so thank you.

No probs! I've had great interactions with Apprentice Necromancer myself, it's been very good. The CMC is right too.

I will let Toc clarify, but I think that was the point. Turning everything into a 0/0 makes Mirrorweave a wrath. I don't think he was saying Mirrorweave *and* Mikaeus work together: just that Mob works with both of them but in different ways. In the Mirrorweave scenario, you still have your Mob while everyone else has no board which is decent, even if it does take more cards to make work.

Yeah I did kind of read it wrong, and had not clicked that Noosegraf is a 0/0 without its ETB, so it wouldn't work the way I was thinking, but what you're suggesting is a good way to wipe. It's probably surplus to requirement regardless though, I'm pretty happy with the number of wipes in the build at present. It definitely isn't the primary reason I brought up Noosegraf anyway. I just think it's a nice way to get bodies in play. You go from 5/5 to 5 2/2's likely over the course of a turn cycle and that just gives immediate scope for digging deeper. The only thing that really makes me think twice about it is the CMC, and again, further reason for mulling over possibly adding something like Animate Dead. It would really help with the 5CMC conundrum.

[Eburon]

I play primarily online as well and I have yet to feel that shifting the ramp package has been detrimental. Now, Online doesn't give us access to Archaeomancer's Map so that certainly changes things a little but cutting the 2 mana rocks has yet to feel like the wrong decision.

I think the 3 card ramp package of Archaeomancer's Map , Land Tax and Sword of the Animist is great, but personally, I would supplement it with a some mana rocks and Phyrexian Altar. I feel ramping is crucial since our business spells all cost 5cmc or more. I feel ramp should create some consistency, so I want to have a solid chance of having a ramp piece in my opening 7. Note: I don't currently own Land Tax and Sword of the Animist, so I can not attest to their effectiveness.

On a different note: Rhystic Study as @toctheyounger mentioned and tested seems like a valuable addition to the deck. How are your experiences with the card so far, Toc? Is it a significant upgrade?

[toctheyounger]

I play primarily online as well and I have yet to feel that shifting the ramp package has been detrimental. Now, Online doesn't give us access to Archaeomancer's Map so that certainly changes things a little but cutting the 2 mana rocks has yet to feel like the wrong decision.

I think the 3 card ramp package of Archaeomancer's Map , Land Tax and Sword of the Animist is great, but personally, I would supplement it with a some mana rocks and Phyrexian Altar. I feel ramping is crucial since our business spells all cost 5cmc or more. I feel ramp should create some consistency, so I want to have a solid chance of having a ramp piece in my opening 7. Note: I don't currently own Land Tax and Sword of the Animist, so I can not attest to their effectiveness.

On a different note: Rhystic Study as @toctheyounger mentioned and tested seems like a valuable addition to the deck. How are your experiences with the card so far, Toc? Is it a significant upgrade?

I see no reason not to include some of the more optimized rocks in addition to the land fetching package. I run Sol Ring and Arcane Signet myself and recent play has been good. I know @WizardMN runs Mana Crypt too. Smoke em if you got em I guess, I can only assume it's very good.

As for Phyrexian Altar, my reluctance to include it here is mostly because of how easy it makes combo. No shade if thats what you wanna do, but I'm really only ever interested in combo as a way to search a win from the jaws of defeat, so if I do bake them in I try to make them a little harder to assemble. Also the only copy I have is in my Yawgmoth build where it fits more thematically, and I don't have the means to pick another up. I've been mulling over Ashnod's Altar getting in here, but I think its in a little bit of a weird space where the burst mana would be good but I don't quite have the token support to really make it hum. Same probably applies to the former, too.

Rhystic Study has been excellent. By the time someone has removal for it chances are you've topped your hand up and then some, literally for bargain basement cost. I've always thought Mystic Remora was very good value too, it just needs to be timed a little more subtly on account of the cumulative upkeep. Hobestly, if you have either, I think they're both worth having in the list.

[Eburon]

As for Phyrexian Altar, my reluctance to include it here is mostly because of how easy it makes combo. No shade if thats what you wanna do, but I'm really only ever interested in combo as a way to search a win from the jaws of defeat, so if I do bake them in I try to make them a little harder to assemble. Also the only copy I have is in my Yawgmoth build where it fits more thematically, and I don't have the means to pick another up. I've been mulling over Ashnod's Altar getting in here, but I think its in a little bit of a weird space where the burst mana would be good but I don't quite have the token support to really make it hum. Same probably applies to the former, too.

I get your reluctance to run Altar for the combo reason. I run it because it has utility as a mana source and a combo piece. I only run one tutor (Sidisi), so a combo has to be drawn naturally, which makes it less frequent. Sometimes it is nice when it happens though.

[toctheyounger]

I get your reluctance to run Altar for the combo reason. I run it because it has utility as a mana source and a combo piece. I only run one tutor (Sidisi), so a combo has to be drawn naturally, which makes it less frequent. Sometimes it is nice when it happens though.

Same boat here, more or less. Sidisi, Undead Vizier is worth running on it's own merit, and I'm not averse to combo if it happens organically. I do have one baked in, I believe:
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + Plague Belcher + Gravecrawler + Carrion Feeder/Grimgrin, Corpse-Born to bleed the table out.

Ultimately Phyrexian Altar wouldn't actually add a whole lot of combo potency I don't think. So predominantly me saying no is for convenience's sake in not having to open up my purse for it, but I'm pretty ok with that.

[skuba]

I loved that guide. I just make an account here to tell you.
I'm also not the kind of player that likes strong combos and infinities at all...
I love the stairwell, never see this before.
For me, I need some more counters, because of my playgroup, but I hold my eyes consistent on this guide!

Pls never stop to update this pls haha ! I like to see how you update it with the mh2 set. I think there are two quit strong zombies and ofc damn for example!

Have a nice day in strange days like this!

greats!

[Eburon]

Quick question: has anyone tested the Pathways in the deck, and if so, are they worth it? PS: I currently do not own fetches, so the fact that they aren't fetchable is irrelevant to me at this point.

Thanks!

[pokken]

I don't think you want to play any non-black pathways in this deck if you do. Brightclimb and clearwater but not Hengegate.

[Eburon]

I don't think you want to play any non-black pathways in this deck if you do. Brightclimb and clearwater but not Hengegate.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I currently run a Glacial Fortress, but it seems that Brightclimb Pathway may be a better fit?

[Eburon]

I wanted to circle back to Lazotep Chancellor in the light of our discussion about Phyrexian Altar. Playing Altar makes Chancellor fringe playable.
Here's why:
Let's day you swing with 5 zombies. You discard 5 cards, creating 5 triggers for Chancellor. You pay 1 for Chancellor trigger 1, Amass, Sacrifice the token you just got to Altar for 1, pay 1 (from altar mana) for Chancellor trigger 2, Amass, Sac, rinse and repeat for the remaining triggers (we obviously can keep the last Army). If we have a drainer in play, all of sudden we just drained 5 life and gained a 2/2 Zombie Army for effectively 1 mana (because of Altar).

@toctheyounger, I know you have your reservations, but I recently was able to acquire an Altar in exchange for my Kindred Discovery and I have loved it ever since.

[pokken]

I think that makes a lot of sense. I currently run a Glacial Fortress, but it seems that Brightclimb Pathway may be a better fit?

hrmmm it's hard to say. Lands that make *both* U and W are probably OK to have a few of? The pathways only make either or, so you desperately want them to be able to make black in a pinch.

I'd think you would want to sub them in for basics of the off color in a non-fetch manabase to give you the option to play your Plains or Island as a Swamp basically?

[toctheyounger]

I loved that guide. I just make an account here to tell you.
I'm also not the kind of player that likes strong combos and infinities at all...
I love the stairwell, never see this before.
For me, I need some more counters, because of my playgroup, but I hold my eyes consistent on this guide!

Pls never stop to update this pls haha ! I like to see how you update it with the mh2 set. I think there are two quit strong zombies and ofc damn for example!

Have a nice day in strange days like this!

greats!

Thanks so much friend, and welcome! I personally think the quality of the guide is due to the input from the community here. Having a group of folk steadily contributing means covering a lot more ground and really being able to get into the finer details of what works and doesn't here. So like everyone, welcome and feel free to share your thoughts, comments and questions.

Tombstone Stairwell is straight up bonkers, fantastic card that just wrecks face savagely here. Glad you found it, you won't regret using it if you can track one down.

I can see getting behind a few more counters; a lot of our game-winning spells are expensive to cast, so switching out some of the board wipes for a more extensive counter suite could be useful for a more cutthroat meta. Presumably you'd want to go for the lower cost/free to play stuff that costs a ton to buy, but I'd assume it would be really worth getting - stuff like Fierce Guardianship, Pact of Negation, Force of Negation and such. For what it's worth Swan Song and Arcane Denial have been really good here for needing very little mana investment, and I've run Forbid in the past. Buyback with it gets rough after a little while, but with enough draw in the deck it can get you a lot of mileage.

I don't think you want to play any non-black pathways in this deck if you do. Brightclimb and clearwater but not Hengegate.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I currently run a Glacial Fortress, but it seems that Brightclimb Pathway may be a better fit?

hrmmm it's hard to say. Lands that make *both* U and W are probably OK to have a few of? The pathways only make either or, so you desperately want them to be able to make black in a pinch.

I'd think you would want to sub them in for basics of the off color in a non-fetch manabase to give you the option to play your Plains or Island as a Swamp basically?

I've got Glacial Fortress in the list, but honestly, I'd probably swap it out for Drowned Catacomb or something that taps for anything if I had anything else I thought suited. Mana Confluence, maybe, Reflecting Pool at a pinch, and if there were triomes for the shards I'd get one in here. In my opinion it's important to have access to u, but the wu mix is far less important than b due to the heavy leaning for b in the mix we have. That's just where our tribe leans.

Pathways vs checklands - much of a muchness to my mind, really. Choosing between the two, 8 times out of 10 I'd probably choose the checks, purely because you're not locked to a certain colour once it hits the table, and it's very rare for them to enter tapped in my experience, so in most scenarios they just are situationally better. Looking at any other reasons to run the Pathways, I honestly can't see any - they're not fetchable if any of us did run fetches, so there's probably no real gain to adding them in. I could probably see an argument for swapping Glacial Fortress out for Mystic Gate; the filter lands have been really good for me, but again, I generally think it's personal choice. I'm happy with the checkland myself, and can't really see anything that gives me good reason to look at switching them out. Battlebond lands? Idk, I want a drop in price for the ally colours before I commit to them.

[Eburon]

I'd pick up a Morphic Pools in a heartbeat if it wasn't as expensive

[toctheyounger]

I'd pick up a Morphic Pools in a heartbeat if it wasn't as expensive

Agreed. I'm personally a bit happier to pay for a fetch in the coming days because I know how solid they are. Battle lands, I'm happy to wait for a reprint. Honestly, considering how they're worded I think they'd be great additions to precons here and there to tank the prices.

[Eburon]

This got spoiled today.

[Eburon]

On a different note. I just was able to pick up a Rhystic Study in a trade. Would it make sense to run that over Painful Truths, or would another cut be better?

[Eburon]

[toctheyounger]

On a different note. I just was able to pick up a Rhystic Study in a trade. Would it make sense to run that over Painful Truths, or would another cut be better?

Nice! Thats a very good add, congrats! I've not run Truths myself so I can't be sure its a perfect fit but given the CMCs are equal it seems reasonable to me to swap one for the other. Theres really not much else out there that'll give as good value for as little input as Rhystic.

I saw the zombie dragon, hadn't seen the Wight. I think of the two the dragon is the worse fit, it just isn't wonderful.

The Wight seems better, really good stats for the CMC. The static ability is nice too, but i think its probably a bit weird to get immense value from. Sure, Death Baron, but once your opponents know its lethal in combat they just won't block it. If it didn't require damage to be dealt by the source I'd be very interested; it'd see everything die on a wipe abd flood the board with tokens. As is, the stats are quite good but outside of that I think it might be a little corner case.