Re: [Primer] Esper Draw-Go Control
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:59 pm
Timely in the main helps g1 against burn as well as against other creature heavy aggro decks and maybe even jund
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Well, I take notes. Mostly little ones on what I am playing, how many times people mulled. If there was any flooding or mana screw on either side. What cards I see in their hand. If I did or didn't see a card like Kaya's Guile against Burn and if either side made a big misplay. I have played 6 main deck discard spells since T3feri came out. It's good but it is really unforgiving.GenesisEffect80 wrote: ↑4 years agoI am amazed at all of these writeups where you guys remember what was in your opponents' hands. I don't have that kind of memory, but I'll just add that Drown in the Loch is the truth! That card did so much work for me last night it was crazy. I never felt the need to build in discard beyond Thoughtseize. Between Fetch and all the GY interaction, there's no need to jam Thought Scour into this deck. Played against Scapeshift and countered one Primeval Titan and destroyed another. That plus Unmoored Ego and we own that deck. Also punished a Heartless Summoning combo deck.
The one deck I had a lot of trouble with was a Rakdos build that abused Unearth with a bunch of annoying 3-drops, including Fulminator Mage. I really missed the Kaya's Guiles that I pulled completely out of the 75. I almost won the match against him if not for him top-decking a Fulminator the turn before I could drop my 6th land to cast Lattice with Karn already on the battlefield. The combo did win me two other games though, so I will continue to abuse it.
Timely Reinforcements felt like a bad card, like it doesn't help us stabilize in a match-specific way.
After seeing how much mileage my Rakdos opponent was getting out of Unearth, I couldn't help but wonder if there's a midrange Esper build out there that does something similar with Snaps, Quellers, Plague Engineers, etc, and runs a full playset of Teferi, Time Raveler...
I can't even remember how many times this card has saved me. Either from having the fetch + shock in something and the life keep me going with a token to block for that turn. Options are my favourite part about playing Esper, every card that costs more than 3 (except drown) does more than two things.A Cute Bunny wrote: ↑4 years agoDropping guile from the 75 can't be right. It is one of the better utility cards in the deck and shouldn't play any less then 2 IMO.
A Cute Bunny wrote: ↑4 years agoYeah Timely is rough, tapping out sorcery speed always is difficult for control because players feel like they can jam anything right after you do. I think timely is almost required against burn though so its a tough call.
I don't run timely in my main, prefer having a full suite of counters and removal, then side it in over board wipes in most cases. I don't mind playing the tapped out games in a lot of instances. By the time im tapping its my end game and im man land beat down. I am looking to playtest a Damping Sphere against a few friends to see how playing tapped out works out against the faster decks, yes it will sometimes cost myself more in some cases, but having the opponent pay 2 or 3 for a lighting bolt, slows them down.aklepatzky wrote: ↑4 years agoTimely in the main helps g1 against burn as well as against other creature heavy aggro decks and maybe even jund
The prowess triggers usually won't happen on our turn imo. Unless its removal to clear the way. I feel Mentor slots in better into a different kind of Esper deck, rather than the control variantaklepatzky wrote: ↑4 years agoWhat do you think about monastery mentor as a 1/2 of in the side against jund control tron etc?
I have Guile back in the board. I like that over Timely Reinforcements. I'm interested in what Liquimetal coating can do and yeah, I need more tricks to grab with Karn besides Lattice. This may seem like sacrilege, but I was not impressed at all with Jace last night. He's done good work in the past against inferior decks, but his +2 actually screwed me in one game, his other modes were not as helpful as I had hoped, and I never got close to his ultimate. I am extremely tempted to go down to 1 Planeswalker in the 75, Karn. I also did not get much out of Plague Engineer. Too soon to say if I think that's a good card against my local meta.A Cute Bunny wrote: ↑4 years agoWell, I take notes. Mostly little ones on what I am playing, how many times people mulled. If there was any flooding or mana screw on either side. What cards I see in their hand. If I did or didn't see a card like Kaya's Guile against Burn and if either side made a big misplay. I have played 6 main deck discard spells since T3feri came out. It's good but it is really unforgiving.
Dropping guile from the 75 can't be right. It is one of the better utility cards in the deck and shouldn't play any less then 2 IMO. Karn is indeed a sweet combo, getting the right cards from the side is a big deal though. Like sometimes it's right to take Liquimetal coating over Lattice to shut down a card then kill some lands or if you get mana screwed its a mini lattice. Sometimes you need a threat or removal more then trying to win with lattice. I know lattice is usually the most tempting grab but I usually only get it when I guaranteed can play it the next turn and it will have the impact I am looking for.
Yeah Timely is rough, tapping out sorcery speed always is difficult for control because players feel like they can jam anything right after you do. I think timely is almost required against burn though so its a tough call.
Unearth is meh. People played it in Esper Mentor but the deck was very very very linear and threat light. Not worth playing IMO.
Yeah, Guile is too good to pass up on. It gets around a ton of stuff like Hexproof and even Veil of summer while also having other functionality with the exile and life gain and even the 1/1 spirit comes up a lot. There are many times I have won games because I had guile in the main and I have never actually sided it out. The card is good and I like seeing it but I don't usually want multiples aside from burn which is why I main 2. I see it enough but not too much.GenesisEffect80 wrote: ↑4 years agoI have Guile back in the board. I like that over Timely Reinforcements. I'm interested in what Liquimetal coating can do and yeah, I need more tricks to grab with Karn besides Lattice. This may seem like sacrilege, but I was not impressed at all with Jace last night. He's done good work in the past against inferior decks, but his +2 actually screwed me in one game, his other modes were not as helpful as I had hoped, and I never got close to his ultimate. I am extremely tempted to go down to 1 Planeswalker in the 75, Karn. I also did not get much out of Plague Engineer. Too soon to say if I think that's a good card against my local meta.
Ive been wanting to replace kalitas for a bit now. Against burn it has definitely won games on the spot but i think i prefer to wait a turn longer in that mu if that gives me the flexibility to have a better treat against aggro or a faster clock against other decks with lyraMashedPotato wrote: ↑4 years agoThe prowess triggers usually won't happen on our turn imo. Unless its removal to clear the way. I feel Mentor slots in better into a different kind of Esper deck, rather than the control variantaklepatzky wrote: ↑4 years agoWhat do you think about monastery mentor as a 1/2 of in the side against jund control tron etc?
I usually keep a Lyra in the sideboard, bit more utility. Or if im feeling a bit different before a night of magic, drop a Geist of Saint Traft, which isn't as good.
I can get behind the notion that T3feri may be a little over-hyped, but to say he's not that good in modern is just way off base imo. In essence, he's fantastic against control and combo, just for the sorc speed requirement alone. That's 2/3 of the archetypes in modern (not percentage-wise, but just more or less the 3 archetypes modern has).Amalek0 wrote: ↑4 years agoA lot of y'all seem laser-focused on teferi, time raveler.
I think that focus is misguided. In modern, the card is not actually that good.
It's incredibly powerfully hateful against our deck and in our deck.
But, against the format writ large, it's generally a bounce/draw effect with some flavor text. The truth is, while many decks in modern *can* operate at instant speed, most have no actual need to do so.
You'll get more milage by recognizing that it's only good against 8-10% of the format, the control decks, or to enhance that same 8-10%.
In terms of slots, that merits sideboard or singleton consideration.
The problem is that it always feels incredibly good when it's out because it's hard to consider the opportunity cost in the moment, and it always gets cast as a 3 mana sorcery speed cantrip at minimum, so it's hard for people to be as objective about it as, say, spell snare.
Yes, it's a miserable card that we have a hard time getting off the table. It also doesn't really do anything and can mostly be ignored in favor of mind-rotting your opponent out of the game.
I am adding Castle Locthwain in place of Field of Ruin. I feel like we need more durable late-game card advantage, which probably seems silly if you're playing 8Charm but I don't play Archmage's Charm. There were a couple games last week where I was digging for a wincon and they had settled to the bottom. Also putting Nihil Spellbomb back into the board for a Karn target.MashedPotato wrote: ↑4 years agoI think Field of Ruin isn't as useful at this stage in the overall meta at the moment, so I have cut mine out entirely. At the moment, I much prefer running clean mana that gives me the colours I need rather than a generic colour, because early on if i need X or Y colour, Field doesn't help me in getting what responses I need out until turn 4 onwards. In short, I like clean mana.
Not a fan of Castle Locthwain. I'd look into Search for Azcanta first, or play some extra card advantage like Archmage's Charm as you mentioned, Hieroglyphic Illumination, Think Twice (my personal favorite), more copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor/Teferi, Hero of Dominaria (depending on how many you play, of course), or even a Sphinx's Revelation or two.GenesisEffect80 wrote: ↑4 years agoI am adding Castle Locthwain in place of Field of Ruin. I feel like we need more durable late-game card advantage, which probably seems silly if you're playing 8Charm but I don't play Archmage's Charm. There were a couple games last week where I was digging for a wincon and they had settled to the bottom. Also putting Nihil Spellbomb back into the board for a Karn target.MashedPotato wrote: ↑4 years agoI think Field of Ruin isn't as useful at this stage in the overall meta at the moment, so I have cut mine out entirely. At the moment, I much prefer running clean mana that gives me the colours I need rather than a generic colour, because early on if i need X or Y colour, Field doesn't help me in getting what responses I need out until turn 4 onwards. In short, I like clean mana.
I agree it's not so insanely good that you HAVE to run it, but I think you're seriously underestimating what T3feri does for Esper. At its floor, he allows for draw-step ECharms without risk of instants being cast in response, he prevents pretty much all interaction with our manlands (Tar Pit being particularly good in combination), he makes our big plays uncounterable, etc. In most matchups, he's a tempo play that then demands a few points of damage to kill him or his effects on the game start compounding.Amalek0 wrote: ↑4 years agoSnip!ShowHideA lot of y'all seem laser-focused on teferi, time raveler.
I think that focus is misguided. In modern, the card is not actually that good.
It's incredibly powerfully hateful against our deck and in our deck.
But, against the format writ large, it's generally a bounce/draw effect with some flavor text. The truth is, while many decks in modern *can* operate at instant speed, most have no actual need to do so.
You'll get more milage by recognizing that it's only good against 8-10% of the format, the control decks, or to enhance that same 8-10%.
In terms of slots, that merits sideboard or singleton consideration.
The problem is that it always feels incredibly good when it's out because it's hard to consider the opportunity cost in the moment, and it always gets cast as a 3 mana sorcery speed cantrip at minimum, so it's hard for people to be as objective about it as, say, spell snare.
Yes, it's a miserable card that we have a hard time getting off the table. It also doesn't really do anything and can mostly be ignored in favor of mind-rotting your opponent out of the game.
My recommendation based on my local meta is to move Supreme Verdict into the board and find a way to go to a full playset of Drown in the Loch main. That card is the truth and the way. You're playing Thoughtseize and with fetch you don't need anything else to have it live by T2. There is still a ton of GY interaction in Modern - clever GY strategies may be even better now after the Faithless Looting ban because the meta has moved so far in the opposite direction that people are not sideboarding for it. I learned my lesson last week: we need Kaya's Guile and Drown is just so good. As soon as they fetch, or you Seize, Kill, or Counter anything, their GY count is going up and Drown scales all game - it hits early threats like Bob and late game wincons like Prime Time all the same.aklepatzky wrote: ↑4 years agoWith regards to this list im going to try this tuesday (I made a few changes in the main and sb: replaced damnation with supreme veredict and removed the single copy of FoR for the 2nd copy of Colonnade. In the side I added Lyra and Kalitas with one free slot yet)
I think Azcanta is far better then the castles. Spellbomb is nice but Tormonds crypt is better most of the time since its 0 mana and you can play it on 4.GenesisEffect80 wrote: ↑4 years agoI am adding Castle Locthwain in place of Field of Ruin. I feel like we need more durable late-game card advantage, which probably seems silly if you're playing 8Charm but I don't play Archmage's Charm. There were a couple games last week where I was digging for a wincon and they had settled to the bottom. Also putting Nihil Spellbomb back into the board for a Karn target.
We can agree to diasagree. The Castles drawback is minimal, imo, and it seems like the black one was made with Esper Draw-Go in mind. Anyway, I'm going to try it out. I'm also running a pair of Temple of Deceit. Tinkering...A Cute Bunny wrote: ↑4 years agoI think Azcanta is far better then the castles. Spellbomb is nice but Tormonds crypt is better most of the time since its 0 mana and you can play it on 4.
Discard feels bad. The number of Veils is going up and up and it destroys discard.Jizard wrote: ↑4 years agoAlso came up against T2 Oko.................... utterly miserable.
Need some new answers. Either Mystical Dispute for 1 CMC counter or perhaps the discard package.
What do ppl think?
Discard feels like a different package for us. I can't remember who it was, but someone in here does run heavier discard suite
Unmoored Ego post board... I think that between Force of Negation and Thoughtseize, and perhaps Spell Snare, if we know their play is T2 Oko we should be more than ready for it. T1 Push the bird with FoN in hand, or Thoughtseize or hold up U on the draw for Snare.Jizard wrote: ↑4 years agoAlso came up against T2 Oko.................... utterly miserable.
Need some new answers. Either Mystical Dispute for 1 CMC counter or perhaps the discard package.
What do ppl think?