[Primer] Esper Draw-Go Control

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BloodyRabbit
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

I didn't play at all in the last three months.

I tested something during the last week, and I honestly see zero reasons to stay in Esper. Bant Control is very powerful, and Sultai is a much better choice when you want to go the Draw-Go route. The latter has been phenomenal for me.

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Post by Amalek0 » 4 years ago

I'm still on not-esper. Fundamentally, I think it just costs too much to beat the titan decks while still having outs to all the random decks packing t3feri, veil of summer, and cavern of souls. The decklists people have put up some successes, sure, but it's really high variance.


There were several years where esper was entirely off the map but I could still confidently play it in a GP or open. Now, it's seeing the most play its ever had in modern, finally has some of the tools its wanted for years, and yet I couldn't confidently register it for an open, much less a GP.

It pains me, but I have to say that I'm probably not coming back to esper in modern until veil and/or t3feri eat a ban, or the deck gets a powerful, non-situational answer at cmc 1 or 2 (counterspell or a new print, most likely). More top end and draw engines won't fix the problem of just not having efficient answers to the powerful linear decks of the format.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 years ago

I was very confident - again - in Esper after the printing of Drown in the Loch.

Then, Titans happened and Thought Scouring the opponent was the worst thing you could do in the format. Since then, I see very little reasons to stay in Esper.

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Post by GenesisEffect80 » 4 years ago

Titans made Thought Scour that much more unnecessary. Drown should be even better now. Kaya's Guile too.

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TheAnnihilator
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

GenesisEffect80 wrote:
4 years ago
Titans made Thought Scour that much more unnecessary. Drown should be even better now. Kaya's Guile too.
On the contrary, recently I've been considering cutting black and playing Archmage's Charm over ECharm, Oust/Winds of Abandon over Fatal Push (yuck, but what can you do?), and cutting Drown entirely. Recently, Kaya's Guile has been the real prize imo, and UW doesn't really have anything that compares.

Drown is either the best card in your deck, or the worst, and I've been shaving copies due to opening hands that have Drown as "interaction" but don't actually compete. Against any aggro deck, especially Humans, Drown just isn't fast enough. It's a 2-mana situational spell, that may or may not have targets. Against big mana, Drown is rarely live in the first place. Drown also plays poorly with Guile, as it's super easy to juke yourself with the grave exile mode. For example, you can never entwine Guile versus certain decks because it kills your Drowns. You can't reliably cast Drown post board against sideboard grave hate either. Even when it's usually not right to bring in grave hate against Esper, it still happens and you lose because Drown happens to get stranded in your hand. Not to mention we can't play Rest in Peace because of Drown/Knot/Snappy.

As for ECharm, it's actively bad to cast its discard mode now. In g1's, ECharm is too slow against aggro, hits dead cards against midrange (or worse -- it bins Uro or Kroxa). The only deck the discard is good against is Amulet. Then you get to G2's where everyone (except Amulet, lol) is playing Veil of Summer and you can never discard-mode an ECharm. Even opposing control and midrange decks play Veil --> Jund, Simic/Temur Urza, Bant Control, etc., they ALL play Veil or could potentially be playing it, and they all also play escape titans. I'm thinking Archmage's Charm might be a better replacement, as countering a spell seems more relevant than the discard mode right now.

I just think that the meta is hostile to what black has to offer at the moment. In addition, going UW gives you easy access to Field of Ruin and more copies of Mystic Sanctuary. If something changes, then I might get back on the Esper train.

Here's what my most recent Esper list would look like in paper:
The Search in the board is a flex slot, don't know exactly what's best there.

And here's my ported-to-UW list:


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Post by MashedPotato » 4 years ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
4 years ago
Here's what my most recent Esper list would look like in paper:

The Search in the board is a flex slot, don't know exactly what's best there.
The mainboard was what I have been running. Really liked Thoughtscour + Drown in the Loch for a while, but once the graveyard becaming more used I moved away from that and went back to something more similar to the above with some Nihil Spellbombs.

Although, I have moved over to Blue Moon as of late, find it hits the curve easier and even with UGx based decks everywhere it can still get a result. Although Veil is to powerful still and Uro has simply replaced Oko, but that is getting off topic.

I still have my Esper in paper but have been renting Blue Moon online, but may rent Esper if I feel the need to play it online.
There is always a greater power

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

An Esper 5-0 list got posted. I'm liking a lot of things about it:


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Post by TheAnnihilator » 4 years ago

Ok, so I finally got a chance to talk about why the above list intrigues me:

Some things I like:
- Astrolabe. I feel like most of the Esper lists I've seen on MTGGoldfish as of recently have been playing 4 Astrolabe, and I must say it makes a lot of sense. It allows you to play Field of ruin much more easily, it fixes the mana issues between ECharm/ACharm/Cryptic/Verdict, and it cantrips into more action. I'm excited to get a few labes and see where it goes. Honestly, we probably should've been discussing Astrolabe much earlier than now.
- 2 ACharm/3 ECharm split. I'm liking this direction for the same reasons as I discussed before -- ECharm is more recetly an overglorified Inspiration, while ACharm can at least Cancel. Though as I'm typing it, I realize both modes are weak to Veil anyways? Anyways, the split is looking interesting nonetheless.

On to some tech I don't like:
- Only 1 Guile main. I think 2 is the right number, and that Omen of the Sea is probably just a flex slot anyways. Easy swap.
- 4 Push/1 Path split -- Path is very good right now, as it hits Prime Time, exiles Kroxa/Uro, and more reliably kills Urza. I definitely want at least 3, if not 4 Paths.
- 24 lands. Even with Opt/Astrolabe I think the right number is 25, as you don't really want to Opt for lands if you can help not to.
- Only 2 Cryptic. I definitely feel like the least we should play is 3, and I personally like 4. 2 feels a little short.
- Stony in the board. I just don't feel like this card does anything against decks that don't play exactly Emry, Lurker of the Loch. Even against decks like Tron, you just turn on sideboarded Nature's Claims. I'd much rather some Nihil Spellbombs or something.

Conversation points:
- The Notion Thief in the board... is it good? I've seen a few UB sideboards with as many as 2 Notion Thief, and I guess is nerfs Astrolabe, Emry loops, Coatls, Tireless Tracker clues, Reveler draws, etc., etc. Is this card worth playing?

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 3 years ago

Does someone remember my Flash lists? No? Well, just a quick reminder.


-

Okay, so. We've got new toys.

It may sound like an obviousness, but the issue with Control decks is not being able to play everything against every deck in the format. Which is not solvable just by jamming more cards in the maindeck. That said, the Yorion route helps in an aspect: we can enstablish our gameplan during the first few turns without having to worry about running out of gas AND winconditions. And I'm finding this very valuable when we are being a totally reactive strategy.

I don't think going down on Charms do any good to the deck. Unless we decide to move towards a Stoneblade approach, Bant and Sultai White do a better job at deploing planeswalkers and defending them.

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Post by GenesisEffect80 » 3 years ago

Is See the Truth a playable card in Modern? Seems like a great interaction with Snap but slow from the hand. Late game for more gas is good.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 3 years ago

Hey everyone! Been a ghost town around here, so I've got something to pick up attention. I've started a league on my YouTube channel with my latest take on Esper Draw-Go. Feel free to take a look!

Link:

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Post by Jizard » 3 years ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
3 years ago
Hey everyone! Been a ghost town around here, so I've got something to pick up attention. I've started a league on my YouTube channel with my latest take on Esper Draw-Go. Feel free to take a look!
Good stuff!
I'm interested in playing a bit more..... just lacking people / places to play.
Interesting build. What did you find good / bad?
I feel like Esper is in a bad place for modern and probs won't ever be good. It feels not proactive enough.
Maybe Sharknados can help. I'm trying 2x Field of the Dead for late game pressure....

I've been playing the deck for 7+ years now.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 3 years ago

Jizard wrote:
3 years ago
TheAnnihilator wrote:
3 years ago
Hey everyone! Been a ghost town around here, so I've got something to pick up attention. I've started a league on my YouTube channel with my latest take on Esper Draw-Go. Feel free to take a look!
Good stuff!
I'm interested in playing a bit more..... just lacking people / places to play.
Interesting build. What did you find good / bad?
I feel like Esper is in a bad place for modern and probs won't ever be good. It feels not proactive enough.
Maybe Sharknados can help. I'm trying 2x Field of the Dead for late game pressure....

I've been playing the deck for 7+ years now.
I talk a bit about changes for the decklist at the end of the last match of the league, which will be posted tomorrow, but I'll go ahead and talk about it here anyways. :)

So, for the things I liked, I think that Remand is very good right now. Especially against everyone slamming Uro and Omnath, but also against the midrange decks. I probably wouldn't play more than 3 though. I also was impressed with Archmage's Charm as well, as I've only ever played a build with 4 once before this league (BloodyRabbit's old list with Tasigur and no Think Twice was part of this list's inspiration). I'm also really glad that Sharknado can do a pretty convincing White Sun's Zenith impression. :) Resolving a hardcasted Sharknado is pretty much ggs.

I think playing Eliminate over Push is probably wrong, sadly. It's just inefficient enough to have a real impact on our aggro matchups (especially when it comes to Snapcaster), and Gust/Purge cover planeswalkers from the sideboard well enough. Also, I think you can add a Mystic Sanctuary without really changing the mana base, as we go long enough for it to become live eventually. I'd love for a reasonable way to play some lifegain in the main board, but even Kaya's Guile has been pretty unimpressive lately.

Field of the Dead is an interesting idea, but I'd be scared to cut Field of Ruin. How have you liked FotD?

As for how good Esper is, I feel like with a tighter build and tighter play (apologies in advance for today's match of misplays :/) the deck can easily go 3/2, maybe 4/1. I think it's clearly not better than the other control decks right now, but it isn't much worse either.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 3 years ago

Ok, so this is the list I'm recording my next league with. Any thoughts?


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Post by Jizard » 3 years ago

It looks quite solid. I think relic isn't great. Cling to Dust x1-2 should be in the 75 perhaps. You could run Relic x2, Clingx1.

Whats the thought behind the Dispel x2?

I also think Mystical Sanctuary is x2. It's one of the more tech things we can do. Maybe drop an Island?

I also can't decide about the Jace / Teferi split. 3 total seems good. Teferi is great at closing things out but I feel like Jace helps get to the late game better. Also, what about T3feri?

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 3 years ago

Jizard wrote:
3 years ago
It looks quite solid. I think relic isn't great. Cling to Dust x1-2 should be in the 75 perhaps. You could run Relic x2, Clingx1.

Whats the thought behind the Dispel x2?

I also think Mystical Sanctuary is x2. It's one of the more tech things we can do. Maybe drop an Island?

I also can't decide about the Jace / Teferi split. 3 total seems good. Teferi is great at closing things out but I feel like Jace helps get to the late game better. Also, what about T3feri?
Oh man, Cling to Dust is a card that didn't even exist last time I played Esper! That's definitely a card worth testing. I'll give it a shot.

The 2 Dispel are meant as answers to Veil of Summer that can also hit stuff like K Command, Collected Company, Chord, Cryptic, and Boil, so they aren't dead if the opponent doesn't draw Veil. Dispel is also very good in the Burn matchup specifically, which is one I'm trying to fix, while still giving me additional options post board against control opponents. I will admit they may not be necessary tho tbh.

I don't mind the idea, but why would you include a 2nd Sanctuary? What does the 2nd do that the 1st doesn't already cover?

I personally think T5feri is the best planeswalker to ever come along for this deck, as it doesn't make you tap out, it answers annoying cards like Blood Moon and planeswalkers (without dying, even), and serves as an alt wincon all by itself. Jace is alright, but it often just dies the turn you play it. I definitely prefer the 2 T5f/1 JtMS split.

About T3feri, the honest answer is I don't own them on MTGO. 😅 I'm not sure how many I would play, though, even if I did. Certianly no more than 2 copies. What would you cut? In fact, do you have a list I could see?

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 3 years ago

Next league with Esper is started! Feel free to check it out. :)


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Post by TheAnnihilator » 3 years ago

Katoriarch123 got 32nd in the most recent Modern Challenge with Esper. List is below.
Again we see a list with tons of buddy lands (Drowned Catacomb and Glacial Fortress) and no Field of Ruins doing well. Only 2 Wraths in the 75, 1 Verdict main, 1 WoG side. Lots of Kaya's Guiles makes a lot of sense in the current red-focused meta. 4 Snapcasters, 4 Opts is interesting, and no mainboard Pushes either. Oh, and no Logic Knots. T_T
Last edited by TheAnnihilator 3 years ago, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by chaos021 » 3 years ago

I'm more surprised by the lack of Archmage's Charm but I don't see where to fit them when I look at the list.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 3 years ago

chaos021 wrote:
3 years ago
I'm more surprised by the lack of Archmage's Charm but I don't see where to fit them when I look at the list.
Oh yeah, no ACharms is pretty surprising. Sometimes it's about what isn't there, not what is there.

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Post by Amalek0 » 3 years ago

Well... I pop out for a year; lo and behold, my opinion hasn't changed since my last post. T3f and veil still make the esper tools just feel awful.

The control freaks discord, that spun out of this thread on the old salvation boards, keeps doubling every time I look at membership. Discord really did destroy long forum format communities.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 3 years ago

So tspjendrek is casually slaying it with Esper right now and we're totally gonna just not even acknowledge it? Really? :)

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Post by chaos021 » 3 years ago

Pretty sure this site is dead. It's all on Discord these days

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

Anyone using Dakkon, Shadow Slayer outside of a Stoneforge package? I think he has some cool synergies that can be explored. With Jace, the Mind Sculptor you can Brainstorm then Surveil 2 to get the garbage out of your hand. His -3 is super relevant as removal for large cmc creatures is a bit more difficult now that Path is outclassed. Entering with loyalty equal to lands means you can just have a 9 loyalty walker (for 3 mana) to evade Unholy Heat which is fairly common right now. And to make use of his -6 you can dump a Blightsteel Colossus into play which is exceedingly hard to remove right now since Path is gone.

Here's what I'm going to try in the next few weeks.

My meta is a little relaxed right now so I'm having some fun with things. Namely Disinformation Campaign, I think the repeated Surveil is just a cool avenue to abuse it and forces decks to pressure Dakkon more. The enchantment also triggers Typhoon

I'm using Liliana opposed to Jace because the +1 feels pretty relevant with all the small creatures running around, her -2 gets me more Snapcasters for more grind, and the emblem is obviously good because Zombies are fun.

I still have some thinking about the sideboard. I'm not sure I need the 4th Damn but I still have some fears about Murktide sneaking in for more damage than I can afford. Vanishing Verse is great, it's probably what I would trade the Damn for. Guile is my only grave hate so I feel 4 is necessary. Fracture is mostly for Walkers but the cross between it, Verse, Ending, and Charm all hit Blood Moon well and I like that because there are a couple Moon players. Thought Distortion is my answer to control mirrors, I think it just strains my opponent more than they can handle then I can try to land a Typhoon or try to force through a Dakkon so I can -6 my Colossus into play.

I'm sort of worried I'm weak to turn 1 Ragavan but I'm not a good enough deck builder to really know by looking at my list. I think I have everything else covered though. I also think I could cut one Cryptic for another draw 2 spell.

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