[Deck] Azorius Control

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SanityLost
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Post by SanityLost » 6 months ago

Bearscape wrote:
6 months ago
I don't like Surgical vs Etron much, honestly. They can function completely fine without assembling tron and it's yet another card to get locked behind Chalice. I tend to board them out.
Yes you are right. But versus GTron they are very useful.
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 6 months ago

Imho Surgical - in these configurations - can easily be a side out also against G-Tron. They're still useful at dealing with multiples (both Karns) but, for the rest, Force of Negation + Cryptic + postboard counterspells take care of most threats. Surgical is a liability also against Relic.

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Post by Bearscape » 6 months ago

It seems like people gravely overestimate the implications of Gtron winning the MC, seeing as I've been seeing a whole lot of Gtron. Which is good for us, since I think Gtron is a better matchup than Etron is and is an argument to keep 2 Surgicals main.

One commonly played card I've been unimpressed with is Monastery Mentor in the side. It seems like now the surprise factor has worn off it just kind of dies.

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Post by SanityLost » 6 months ago

Yeah I feel the same regarding Mentor. I think the good old Geist of Saint Traft might fulfil this need better since it is also a tough card to beat in the control mirror. Creaturewise, I currently run 2 Cliques (next to Baneslayer) in the side which is awesome versus so many decks, including tron providing a fast clock.
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Post by TheAnswer » 6 months ago

Wasn't able to play last week, but got to play this week. I decided not to pull the trigger on Mu Yanling, she just doesn't seem impactful enough, and the emblem really doesn't end the game completely as I had hoped, so I was back to 3 Narset. I really liked Force of Negation, card is incredible.

Lost round 1 to Amulet Titan, felt pretty hopeless the entire time. Not sure if there's a whole lot we can do to improve this matchup.

Won the next 3 rounds, each in 2 games: Mardu Shadow, Phoenix, and Sultai Snow Control. Phoenix games were a blast, seemed pretty close but was nicely in control the whole time. Narset and 3feri are bonkers, man. Bouncing Aria of Flame is a potent game action.

I only have a couple Surgicals which are in my Phoenix deck, so I didn't run any main or sideboard, but I felt like RiP was pretty ok. At least at the place where I played, it didn't seem like Surgical was 100% necessary, which is good, because they are still too expensive.


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Post by kddncn » 6 months ago

Been on standard for a while since I wasn't happy with the format post-WAR. Was wondering if there are any good current sideboard guides for the deck under current conditions.
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Post by FlayJay » 6 months ago

I am looking for Versions of the deck for after the potential Hogaak (PLEASE) from today.
Has anybody been thinking about that yet?

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Post by Ym1r » 6 months ago

FlayJay wrote:
6 months ago
I am looking for Versions of the deck for after the potential Hogaak (PLEASE) from today.
Has anybody been thinking about that yet?
I think we will be running the same lists (the ones without MB Rest in Peace that is), and maybe just cut down to 1 Surgical main, or even 0. Only the sideboard plan will change, and we can't predict that yet.
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Post by Erian Ignis » 6 months ago

So, how are we incorporating SFM into UW Control?

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Post by SanityLost » 6 months ago

Erian Ignis wrote:
6 months ago
So, how are we incorporating SFM into UW Control?
We don't IMHO. Far too weak for this deck, especially as a wincon. BSkull on turn 3? Yeah have fun with that :P
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 6 months ago

I think with SFM you more or less want a Midrange deck. I'd start with 3 Forces and 2 Pierces for protection, and some mainboard Mentors too. Ditch the Narsets and keep Jace. Prolly cut Teferi Hero too. Oh and play no less than 3 Snapcasters.
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Post by kddncn » 6 months ago

I think there will be a bifurcation in UW lists. If I wanted to fit SFM into a package, I'd look at the Esper Mentor lists as a starting point, and then build backwards into a straight UWx shell. Since modern lack of TNN equivalent (outside of Etched Champion) I would sooner start on a UWR or UWB stoneblade build to get a better set of creatures to stick a sword onto.
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Post by Erian Ignis » 6 months ago

Well, I guess it is a matter of waiting at this point. I was whether it is an auto-include in UW control and get the 4th SFM right away, or wait a small while for the hype to cool off.

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Post by Bearscape » 5 months ago

SFM goes in the 75 IMO. Either a small package main (like 3 SFM 2 equipments) or as a sideboard package like Lyra and Resto Angels.

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Post by SanityLost » 5 months ago

IMHO SfM has nothing to do with control. One can adapt the classification from Legacy: Control (i.e. Miracles) vs. Stoneblode lists. Sure, they share a common card pool, but differ in some important points, most prominently the win conditions and pace of game. Stoneblade is much more proactive.
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Post by Bearscape » 5 months ago

SanityLost wrote:
5 months ago
IMHO SfM has nothing to do with control. One can adapt the classification from Legacy: Control (i.e. Miracles) vs. Stoneblode lists. Sure, they share a common card pool, but differ in some important points, most prominently the win conditions and pace of game. Stoneblade is much more proactive.
A SFM package in the side is not unheard of though. Similar to the Lyra or Mentor package, when the opponent takes out removal, you side in some SFMs and a Batterskull. That seems quite solid both in aggro matchups and in grindy matchups, especially since hardcasting Batterskull should be no issue for this deck. Is your opponent going to bring in artifact hate?

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Post by nawillih » 5 months ago

Bearscape wrote:
5 months ago
SanityLost wrote:
5 months ago
IMHO SfM has nothing to do with control. One can adapt the classification from Legacy: Control (i.e. Miracles) vs. Stoneblode lists. Sure, they share a common card pool, but differ in some important points, most prominently the win conditions and pace of game. Stoneblade is much more proactive.
A SFM package in the side is not unheard of though. Similar to the Lyra or Mentor package, when the opponent takes out removal, you side in some SFMs and a Batterskull. That seems quite solid both in aggro matchups and in grindy matchups, especially since hardcasting Batterskull should be no issue for this deck. Is your opponent going to bring in artifact hate?
Are Lyra and Mentor not just straight better than the Stoneforge package for what they do here tho?

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Post by Bearscape » 5 months ago

[mention]nawillih[/mention] Not per se, that would be dependent on the matchup and situation:

Against Burn, a turn 2 SFM will die (not per se a bad thing if it eats a burn spell that isn't Searing Blaze), It will still produce a turn 5 lifelinking body just like Lyra would. The Vigilance is also very relevant there.

Against Humans, Lyra's flying is very relevant, but she is often an all-or nothing play where you die if they have a Reflector Mage. Them copying Lyra with Phantasmal Image can also be an issue, which doesn't do much vs Batterskull. Meanwhile, they are not too likely to stop you from putting Batterskull into play on turn 3 off SFM. Being able to pick up Batterskull after a wrath is also relevant. However they can take Batterskull with Freebooter, and are fairly likely to have something like Reclamation Sage.

Against Jund, Mentor is kind of an all-or-nothing play. You play Mentor followed by some spells to get value. However, if resources get low (not unlikely vs jund) Mentor might come with no follow up. SFM here can be dropped with some more ease; they should be boarding out removal regardless, and she can lightning rod the remaining removal they have, or slow down their gameplan making them devote their early turn to killing her. Being guaranteed card advantage is also relevant here.

These are just some examples; I do not really want to argue SFM is better than Mentor and Lyra, but I do want to argue how they differ and are interesting to test. Compared to the Lyra-Mentor package, this is also one less sideboard slot (1 SFM 1 sword over 2 Mentor 1 Lyra). I would also argue that currently, turn 2 is the weakest mainboard turn for UW, and SFM is just a solid turn 2 play.

Finally, Lyra, Mentor and SFM do not need to be exclusive; now we can ease down on sideboard space a bit, I think something like 1 SFM 1 Sword 2 Mentor in the side could be an excellent way to provide a really powerful proactive postboard strategy.

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Post by SanityLost » 5 months ago

I am with Bearscape on this one. Another thing I want to point out is that you virtually play 5 BSkull in the main, whereas Lyra and Baneslayer are 1-ofs. So in case you need a lifelinker, SFM makes that very easy to accomplish whereas you have to dig for you 1-ofs. The tutor effect on SFM is what makes it so great (and ofc its activated ability), not the equipment itself. SFM thus never creates card disadvantage, making it a solid card in many matchups. In many MUs you even WANT them to remove it, like Bearscape says.
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Post by Bearscape » 5 months ago

Putting SFM testing aside, Evaros uploaded a video playing Miracles a few days ago and that got me thinking, with everyone durdling around with SFM, Terminus looks really busted.

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Post by SanityLost » 5 months ago

Why does Terminus look busted right now in your opinion? I think it looked particularly good vs. Hoogak and Dredge and stuff, but these times are over for now.
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Post by Bearscape » 5 months ago

SanityLost wrote:
5 months ago
Why does Terminus look busted right now in your opinion? I think it looked particularly good vs. Hoogak and Dredge and stuff, but these times are over for now.
It's more because of SFM. There is a whole lot of creature decks right now, many of them being not too aggresive but more value orientated. IMO, whether we're in a meta that validifies running 4 mainboard sweepers is more relevant to whether Terminus is good than how relevant the tuck effect is.

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Post by Bearscape » 5 months ago

I brought UW Miracles to FNM last Friday, resulting in a perfectly mediocre 2-2. I was running a lot of yanky 1-ofs though (including Elixir of Immortality, lol) and honestly compared to the Mentor list I posted earlier, this felt incredibly powerful. Rummaging through the small handful of recent Miracle results, I found a list running Mishra's Bauble, and I am curious to try it out.


What do you think? I would like to fit in the Entreat the Angels, but I'm not sure where.

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Post by Bearscape » 4 months ago

For a more "classic" approach, I've been going back into Narset Control:

I still have miracles in the backpocket and will playtest a bit more next week. I'd really like some feedback on this list.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 4 months ago

Just a quick observation.

Stoneforge Mystic is a card that lots of players yet have to understand. In reality it's simple: in a shell like UW Control, if you want to run it here (4 Snaps, 4 Stoneforge and stop) you should just go for double Batterskull. Not stylish enough? So what. Swords aren't good enough in a creatureless UW, and Skull is a good grind card if Stoneforge is killed on the spot.

Other than that, it's also a good sideboard card against aggressive strategies. The same way some Legacy MiracleBlade did, you can just jam 2-3 Stoneforge + 1 Batterskull in the side to bring them in as either: a) Red and Swarm strategies hate, b) clock vs Combo.

I'll tell you all, from an experienced Legacy player, that it works way better than what it looks like on paper.

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