[Deck] Temur Delver

Baron Sengir 007
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Post by Baron Sengir 007 » 4 years ago


Let's start the new Temur Delver discussion here!!

mithik_11
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Post by mithik_11 » 4 years ago

Hey there! Would love to discuss this archetype :) I think I have it pretty dialed in, with "good" but not stellar results. I play on a pretty competitive level but not as often as I'd like. Piloted this to many 4-0's, 3-1's, and the like but I only play in paper tournaments, so online results are limited to clients like XMage and Cockatrice. We also have a discord at https://discord.gg/N9B9VvD if you'd like to talk more or on a personal level!


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motleyslayer
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Post by motleyslayer » 4 years ago

I'm liking these lists. Been wanting to sleeve up a list since Horizons made nimble mongoose legal. One question I have is the advantage of hexdrinker over nimble mongoose? young pyromancer seems great though

mithik_11
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Post by mithik_11 » 4 years ago

So between Nimble Mongoose and Hexdrinker; the argument for either one is essentially endless haha. It basically comes down to a few things that we've brought up in the discord.

1. The "Floor" of a card:
Where you assess Hexdrinker and Mongoose at their absolute worst, which would you have?

2. The presence of Lava Dart/Gut Shot in Phoenix Builds and Wrenn and Six in Jund:
This is more of a meta question. Makes it extremely difficult to run X/1's in this meta. I have extremely competitive meta's both in paper and online, so I wil not be sleeving up the snek. But that's just me personally. Especially when I tailored my build to have Mongoose a 3/3 ASAP.

stubb
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Post by stubb » 4 years ago

I'm a confirmed Hexdrinker player. Against the Wrenn and Six decks, I just don't play it until I can level it right away, or if I can Force a possible W6.

Personally, I've enjoyed the freedom from playing Thought Scour, and the I-win button that Hexdrinker is in the late game against the grindy decks. I also think the 2/1 body is more relevant a body than some give it credit for.

One of the best parts about playing a rogue build like this is you can do whatever you want. There's a core, but there are gigantic differences between mithik's build and my own. He's 100% all-in on Mongoose and the pitch counters, while my own build is definitely built with slightly longer games in mind.

Here's where I'm at, for what it's worth:

Wrenn and Six is new but has been quite good and I'm committed to giving it an extended try. Some people don't like Snapcasters, but I've been on a pair for quite a while now and can't really see cutting them.

The Magmatic Sinkhole, Tarfire, Vapor Snag, and Spell Snare are all up for consideration. In the board, I think five cards are pretty locked in: two Moon, two Surgical, and the EE. Other than that, I think a sweeper or two is a good idea in most metas, as is some form of artifact interaction, and then you fill it out with whatever else works in your meta.
Last edited by stubb 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

mithik_11
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Post by mithik_11 » 4 years ago

stubb wrote:
4 years ago
I'm a confirmed Hexdrinker player. Against the Wrenn and Six decks, I just don't play it until I can level it right away, or if I can Force a possible W6.
Yeah, this is probably the best route of play to really max the hexdrinker's lifespan against Jund. But just holding it isn't what we want to be doing most of the time. Similarly to Phoenix, I'd rather not sit idle against that deck and their busted chains of turns. So leaning on FoN to get their goat is best case scenario. Kind of a one-two-PUNCH.
stubb wrote:
4 years ago
Wrenn and Six is new but has been quite good and I'm committed to giving it an extended try.
DANG! That's awesome. Can you discuss your reasoning for including him and what kind of roles he plays for the deck?

stubb
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Post by stubb » 4 years ago

mithik_11 wrote:
4 years ago
stubb wrote:
4 years ago
Wrenn and Six is new but has been quite good and I'm committed to giving it an extended try.
DANG! That's awesome. Can you discuss your reasoning for including him and what kind of roles he plays for the deck?
Couple of factors:

1. The local Jund guy said it was nuts. I said I didn't have anything to do with it except buy back fetchlands, and he said that's almost all it was doing for him, that it was basically a Bob that only ever drew lands, didn't die to everything, and if they didn't deal with it, it wins the game with Bolt retrace.

2. I had been playing with a Narset in the main just to have a little source of card advantage and a sticky, different angle of threat. I love the card, but I think it belongs in the sideboard unless Phoenix or Storm is at the top of the heap along with some other matchups where you want a stream of noncreature spells. But I did like having that engine.

3. I watched some Legacy RUG gameplay with Wrenn and Six. Obviously Legacy is a different format, but here's what I learned: shooting x/1s is a big deal; hitting every land drop is a big deal; and most importantly, you don't need to be looping Wastelands or Fiery Islets for its +1 to be good. The games where W6 did nothing but draw a fetch every turn were fine.

4. Modern decks for a little while now have been trying attack on two axes. Dredge has the creature plan and the Conflagrate / Chill plan. Phoenix has the Phoenix plan and the Thing plan, and now the Aria plan, too. Jund has always had the creature plan plus the Liliana plan. Some of these run a little further apart than others, but I saw an issue that we were basically all-in on creatures, and trying to protect them with free counters. I've always been big on Snap-Bolt in the deck, too, so that can kind of account for extra reach. But I think Wrenn and Six gives us the kind of threat we haven't had before.

5. I said on MTGS or the Discord* that Wrenn and Six is basically a Bob and a Grim Lavamancer stapled together that activates the turn you cast it and doesn't die to standard creature removal. Given that two project matchups for me have been the grindy games, where the +1 is great, and Aether Vial decks, where the -1 is great. And if they don't deal with it, it just wins with the emblem.

That's been my findings after two weeks of reading, watching, etc, and one night of playtesting. But it's been nuts so far. And the cost of playing it is cutting 2 flex instants and sorceries. I was playing pairs of Tarfire and Vapor Snag, and I just cut to one of each to try it. That's no real loss for huge gains, especially in harder matchups.

* It's slightly confusing that we've got conversations on this deck going on at MTGS, here, and on the Discord. I like having a longer-form method to talk about stuff, but the Discord is very active.

FranzW1990
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Post by FranzW1990 » 4 years ago


The Royal Scions with our creatures are very crazy. First strike and trample on Tarmogoyf looks very strong :O
He also fills the graveyard with cards for Tarmogoyf, Dreadhorde and Magmatic Sinkhole

VicariousOne
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Post by VicariousOne » 4 years ago

Image
I promised myself I wouldn't go back into this rabbit hole but here I am

(is there any way to make this thing smaller?)

mithik_11
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Post by mithik_11 » 4 years ago

Hah well at least it's a fun rabbit hole, right?

Pretty ambitious list tho! You have a 41% blind flip chance on delver, which his suuuuper below where you wanna be (around 46.666% like legacy lists). So maybe it's worth cutting some walkers and lands and stuff? Up to you tho :)

This archetype has legs, but you really gotta stick to the "plan A" of the deck and just smash.

Cool stuff tho! Keep us posted.

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Post by VicariousOne » 4 years ago

I used to be on monkey grow a couple years back so i feel right at home ^^
compared to the new age temur delver lists I have 1 additional instant / sorcery for blind flips. Still not anywhere near comparable to legacy ofcourse as out cantrips are hot crap because worc decided to ban ponder and preordain instead of grapeshot for god knows what reason (and probably still hasn't even tested whether they can be unbanned again because I am positive that they'd just be another JTMS / Stoneforge / BBE level unban)
The list is still very rough though I have had a lot of success across the 2 days I have been playtesting.
I'd love to cut another land, the mb Ghost Quarter, but that might be too greedy, though the mana base is still very much up in the air anyway.
I could also see cutting one Oko or Wrenn (probably the latter) but for now they have both been absolutely amazing so I want to keep playing around with this build some more.
I am also not sold on remand and would probably want to get some amount of Tarfire into the deck (also right after posting I switched one Mandrills for a Snapcaster)

Listening to the most recent episode of the ArenaDecklist Podcast, where GerryT and Bryan were briefly touching on how they really wish there was a real tier 1 delver deck in the format to push it away from linearity but how the lack of good cantrips is making it near impossible. The UR version that Aspiring SPike has been playing on his stream also looks promising but I feel like it is making too many concessions to improve it's lategame (21 lands so he can play sanctuary + deprive lock, full 4 archmage's Charm's and Snapcaster Mages that drive up the curve significantly) so that the delver plan oftentimes looks more like a afterthought.

Also this is the first thread where after making a post I actually saw a response (or any other kind of activity) since I joined the forum (i believe) so yey!
I'll keep you posted on my descend into madness while trying to make this deck happen^^

mithik_11
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Post by mithik_11 » 4 years ago

Heck yes dude! That's awesome to have a veteran come back to the archetype. Skill with a build is a huge part of modern.

And yeah, lots of people want this deck to be a thing. I get that a lot when I bring it in paper to my LGS's.

UR is a different beast entirely, so take what they do with a grain of salt. I have a super competitive area of gameplay. Lots of pros and stuff. I can pretty consistently 3-1, 4-0, 4–1, and 5-0 events. The deck is here, we just gotta crack the proverbial code to it.

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Mikefon
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Post by Mikefon » 4 years ago

Chaughey did it again! Chaughey is a long time Temur delver player. Congratulations!
I'd love to hear more about their choices. If you read this please feel free to answer!
Chaughey's Temur Delver
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